A question about being a Christian witness

[MsDahl]

How do you feel about standing in as a Christian witness to a Catholic baptism? Do you think it compromises an Orthodox Christian's stance on the issue of Orthodoxy by giving a "stamp of approval" to such a decision? Do you think that it is pretentious to turn down this position on account of this very reason?

I'm open to all Orthodox opinions on this subject. I am waiting to hear from my priest on the matter so I figured I'd hear other Orthodox Christians perspective on this.

Thanks for your time and reponse :)

[Shubunkin]

hmmm, me personally, I wouldn't do it... I wouldn't even go to my own husband's installation as a member of his Lutheran church. :o

[Monica, child of God]

Do you mean just being there during the baptism or something more?

M.

[MsDahl]

Do you mean just being there during the baptism or something more?

M.

Not just being present during the baptism but actually standing up there beside the Catholic godparent as a Christian witness (that is what the Catholic church refers to the non-Catholic person who participates in the baptism).

[MsDahl]

hmmm, me personally, I wouldn't do it... I wouldn't even go to my own husband's installation as a member of his Lutheran church. :o

That is some position to hold, cygene! I understand why you would hold it. I wouldn't draw such a hard line with my spouse.

This situation involves my nephew, so it is not as "close to home" so to speak but it does hit near to it.

[Matrona]

AYP, but I would definitely say no.

[Forest]

What would be wrong with it? I thought Orthodox accepted baptism done outside of the Orthodox church if done in a mnner like the Catholic's do?

[Orthosdoxa]

I wouldn't, Ms. D. I would give them a lovely card and a small gift and attend, but not participate.

[Matrona]

What would be wrong with it? I thought Orthodox accepted baptism done outside of the Orthodox church if done in a mnner like the Catholic's do?

Orthodox "accept" a Roman Catholic baptism in the sense that when someone formerly of that confession (or another Trinitarian confession) is converting to Orthodoxy, we don't necessarily baptize him because the conversion process to Orthodoxy fulfills what was lacking in the dunking/service performed as part of that other confession.

For this baby, on the other hand... we obviously cannot say.

[rusmeister]

I think that from our perspective, it's tantamount to acknowledging the truth of the Catholic faith. The Catholics may hold that this is not so, but I think that we would. There is a similar position on who can take Communion in the Catholic Church. If I am not very much mistaken, the Catholics basically say that Orthodox can, and we say that we can't. And it is our perspective that matters if one is to remain faithful to the Orthodox faith. Of course, AYP.

There is such a thing as being so closed off from other faiths that we fail to see them as sheep that God is seeking, just as we are. There is also an opposite extreme, that of an ecumenism that makes the dogma of Orthodoxy of no effect, saying essentially that it doesn't matter which Church we are a part of. (Hoping my point gets across here)

[repentant]

Canonically, the only Baptism to be accepted by the EOC is EO baptism. Everyone should be re-Baptized. But of course the "oikonomia" exception became the norm, and anyone who stands for the Canonical tradition of the Church is chastized.

But anyway, to the OP, even just attending a heterodox, including RCC, ceremony rather it be a Baptism, wedding or even funeral, shows approval for the various person and their decision. As far as funerals, it shows approval for the persons life as a non EOC, and it is incorrect to show approval for any of these things. Take it for what it is worth, but this is how the Church traditionally looks at it. Of course the ecumenists among us will argue and debate with their politically correct mumbo jumbo...

[Orthosdoxa]

:thumbsup: rus

[MariaRegina]

At the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Churches here in Los Angeles, both churches allow a Catholic to serve as one of the godparents as long as there is one Orthodox Christian godparent present who actively participates in the Baptism by denouncing the devil, affirming belief in Christ, and reading the Nicene Creed. The Catholic party does not spread oil on the child or hold the child immediately following the baptism when the Priest anoints the child with Holy Chrism.

I have always seriously questioned this practice because one Catholic godparent told me that she was going to take the child to the Catholic Church every other Sunday. In other words, the parents intended to raise the child in both churches. You must realize that the Catholic Church does give communion to Orthodox Christians. This can cause real confusion in the minds of children. See the true story below.

At my parish, there was one child who was being raised in both churches. He was baptized and chrismated as Orthodox. One day he said that he was a Roman Catholic Orthodox. His classmates ages 6 and 7, said that he could not be a member of both churches and beat him up. He left that parish and started attending only the Catholic Church.

[MsDahl]

I have always seriously questioned this practice because one Catholic godparent told me that she was going to take the child to the Catholic Church every other Sunday. In other words, the parents intended to raise the child in both churches. You must realize that the Catholic Church does give communion to Orthodox Christians.

This is what I think the mother wants to do as she plans on presenting her child to the Orthodox church at a later time. Originally, I was approached as being my nephew's godmother in the Orthodox church and I accepted based on this premise. She has since changed her mind on the issue and now I am left to make a decision. I believe that if this decision is made because of God's will for my life, then He will be able to use this as a way of drawing us closer together rather than farther apart (as I am concerned that it will go that way).

My younger brother agreed to do this for their daughter (they are baptizing both children on the same day). However, my brother is not a practicing Orthodox Christian so it is obvious that our positions would be different.

So, another question, what is a tactful way of declining being a Christian witness to a Catholic baptism while maintaining your integrity as an Orthodox and respect of the familial relationship?

Thanks everyone for your replies. It helps getting feedback from other devout Orthodox. :)

[Matrona]

Canonically, the only Baptism to be accepted by the EOC is EO baptism. Everyone should be re-Baptized. But of course the "oikonomia" exception became the norm, and anyone who stands for the Canonical tradition of the Church is chastized.

Actually, the canons specifically allow for the chrismation without baptism of certain heretics. So the Church has already determined that chrismation without baptism is an appropriate way to receive certain heretics - the question is whether or not Roman Catholics fit this definition or not.

If you're going to try to interpret canons by yourself, which is a bad idea anyway, at least take the time to make sure you've got it right, don't rely on what internet polemicists and schismatics tell you is "Holy Tradition".

[resoto]

"The Catholics may hold that this is not so, but I think that we would. There is a similar position on who can take Communion in the Catholic Church. If I am not very much mistaken, the Catholics basically say that Orthodox can, and we say that we can't. And it is our perspective that matters if one is to remain faithful to the Orthodox faith. Of course, AYP."


If I recall well my highschool priests, Orthodox sacraments are valid from a Catholic point of view, so a Orthodox can recieve sacraments from a Catholic if a Orthodox priest is not avaliable. In the same fashion a Catholic can receive sacraments in a Orthodox Church if a Catholic priest is not available. The problem is that the Orthodox do not recognize that in a reciprocal way. For example Greek Orthodox generaly refuse to administer sacraments to a Catholic and Orthodox are not allowed to receive Catholic sacraments. The only exception have been so far in Russia were there have been cases of Orthodox bishops that had aproved giving Orthodox sacraments (or Mysteries to use the EO vocabulary) to Catholic visitors in the Russian hinterland. Probably the Rusian Orthodox Church have become more liberal on that issue.

[HisKid1973]

Would Jesus go?

[rusmeister]

Would Jesus go?

This seems like a sensible question.

However, it grossly simplifies the situation. Would Jesus go to the temple and listen to people who had misunderstood the teachings and stand quietly in support of them? Of course not. But we don't have the right to try to guess what God (Jesus IS God) would do being God - we have to be really darn sure of ourselves before we go into a Catholic church and start throwing the pews around or whatever.

In Orthodoxy we don't reduce the formulas to that level of simplicity. There are many many situations where the answer is not so simple. We just don't have the wisdom Jesus did to know to act as He did in those situations.. We are much better off doing what He told us to do, and this is what the Church constantly teaches and reminds us.

Speaking hypothetically, if the Catholic Church is correct, then the worst we are doing is 'poopily' not participating. If the Orthodox Church is correct, then we are probably right to not appear to 'rubber stamp' Catholicism. If neither are correct (again, hypothetically), then at least we are all trying to do what we believe would please God most.

The real question is "Who's right?"

[Rowan]

I would go for the sake of not causing unnecessary strife within the family. That's the last thing they need at that monumental time in the baby's life.

You said the position is for Non-Catholic participants, and you are not Catholic (in their sense of the word ;)) so I don't see the fuss, I guess.

[Philothei]

I did not bother to look into others "opinions" I would only listen to what my priest would say.... no point to beat this to the ground... It is uncanonical to start up with.... yet it is to what the local Bishop tolerates.... some do some don't and if they find out that their priests are not doing what they think it is right your priest would get into trouble.... that is all...


Now personally speaking .... IMO I would decline standing there...for it would mean I would be "witnessing" a false union of a "sacrament" ... why bother. But then again that is me....not you.


God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

I would go for the sake of not causing unnecessary strife within the family. That's the last thing they need at that monumental time in the baby's life.




She has to have the approval of her priest first ... on this matter... cause what we do as Orthodox is not individual likes and dislikes.... And I am not saying this to offend anyone... sorry Rowan, but as sharing information since lots of times the parishioners tell their priest afterwards.... and then get supprised when they are scolded by them....

God bless,
Philothei

[Rowan]

I would go for the sake of not causing unnecessary strife within the family. That's the last thing they need at that monumental time in the baby's life.




She has to have the approval of her priest first ... on this matter... cause what we do as Orthodox is not individual likes and dislikes.... And I am not saying this to offend anyone... sorry Rowan, but as sharing information since lots of times the parishioners tell their priest afterwards.... and then get supprised when they are scolded by them....

God bless,
Philothei

No offense taken, but she said she asked her priest and wanted our opinions in the meantime, so I gave mine.

[Matrona]

I think we need to draw a distinction between going just to watch, and acting as a "Christian Witness" pseudo-godparent.... the latter would almost certainly be forbidden but the former would not.

[HisKid1973]

[quote=rusmeister
The real question is "Who's right?"[/quote]

Let Him sort it out at the Bema seat...We will then know if we did what we did for Christ or not..

[Rowan]

I think we need to draw a distinction between going just to watch, and acting as a "Christian Witness" pseudo-godparent.... the latter would almost certainly be forbidden but the former would not.

True. I thought it would be weird for a Catholic to propose that a Non-Catholic be a godparent of their child, so I thought she was just asked to watch.

[Philothei]

True. I thought it would be weird for a Catholic to propose that a Non-Catholic be a godparent of their child, so I thought she was just asked to watch.
oh... sorry Rowan in that case it is okay ... Ithought otherwise.

God bless,
Philothei

[resoto]

True. I thought it would be weird for a Catholic to propose that a Non-Catholic be a godparent of their child, so I thought she was just asked to watch.
To my understanding and I was raised Catholic, the CC requires godparents to be Catholic
anyways. So if you are Orthodox you should advise them to look for someone else.

[MsDahl]

I think we need to draw a distinction between going just to watch, and acting as a "Christian Witness" pseudo-godparent.... the latter would almost certainly be forbidden but the former would not.

The latter is what is being asked of me. The issue is I was originally approached to be the godparent as they were going to do it in the Orthodox church. My SIL changed her mind somewhere along the way and assumed I'd go along for the ride. The former is what I plan on doing, going and just watching the baptism. If I am to be called nouna by my nephew, it must be real, not a makeshift nouna.

True. I thought it would be weird for a Catholic to propose that a Non-Catholic be a godparent of their child, so I thought she was just asked to watch.

I don't think they will see that it is strange to ask me to stand up there with the Catholic sponsor as my brother is doing this for their younger daughter without any issues but he is a non practicing Orthodox. I mostly think that my family will think I'm strange for not doing it.

[Philothei]

If I could add Mrs. Dahl no offense but why would a catholic priest allow this? it is uncomfortable for both priests I think... as they would both have to bend the rules... Like resoto said .. and I know from my catholic friends they do not allow non-catholics to participate in baptisms either...

Also what is the point if you as orthodox would not "witness' to this child as a catholic god mother? In my humble opinion aagain and forgive me ... have you talked to your family about this? Most of the family members understand the issue once are asked about the meaning of being a God parent and how in our church we take it seriously (not to say that the Catholics do not as it depends... they do too with all respect...). Just some thoughts.

Forgive me since I am not saying this to disagree but trying to understand better....

God bless,

Philothei
Philothei

[Matrona]

The latter is what is being asked of me. The issue is I was originally approached to be the godparent as they were going to do it in the Orthodox church. My SIL changed her mind somewhere along the way and assumed I'd go along for the ride. The former is what I plan on doing, going and just watching the baptism. If I am to be called nouna by my nephew, it must be real, not a makeshift nouna.

Perhaps you can tell her that if she would have the child baptized in the Church you would be pleased to be the nouna, but if she insists on doing it elsewhere, you simply cannot. It might help if you ask your priest, so that you can say that he advised you not to.

As sad as it is that your family is not so observant, I for one am really pleased and heartened that you are standing your ground.

[MoNiCa4316]

Do you recognize other church baptisms as valid, as long as they are done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Or are only EO baptisms considered valid? I just realized that I don't know... just want to make sure
:)

[Orthosdoxa]

"Valid" is more of a western concept, one you don't hear a lot in the East under normal circumstances. It's not that black and white for us.

We know where the Church is, and where one should be baptized. It's really not up to us to say how God feels about other ones. We do not say they are devoid of grace, we simply do not know.

[choirfiend]

I THINK the Catholic Church is ok with one Catholic Godparent, and one "christian witness" as the OP is describing. In that case, the Godparent is the Catholic one, but the other person still has a role to fulfill. It seems to be a way to allow non-Catholics to serve in the role of surrogate parent without being the sponsor in the Catholic Church.

Any Catholic lurkers, please correct the above if I am incorrect.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

Do you recognize other church baptisms as valid, as long as they are done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Or are only EO baptisms considered valid? I just realized that I don't know... just want to make sure
:)

I was received into the Church by Chrismation but Father questioned me closely about my baptism in a Baptist church. He seemed most concerned with the Trinitarian form and that my baptism followed a sincere commitment to follow Christ. I would have preferred to be received by baptism but I told him that I would follow whatever he recommended.

[MoNiCa4316]

oki thanks :wave:
I definitely think that baptism should be Trinitarian, since Jesus said "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" :)

[Monica, child of God]

I would attend but not participate as a witness. Catholics tend to think that there is not much difference between us and them. Standing there, affirming their sacraments adds to the confusion. While we pray for the union of all at every DL, we must not give a false sense about what separates us.

M.

[buzuxi02]

What exactly is the role of a witness? And why would the RC want a non-RC to play a role in their service?

[cassc]

His classmates ages 6 and 7, said that he could not be a member of both churches and beat him up. He left that parish and started attending only the Catholic Church. That's really horrible but it is the Orthodox Classmates who should be ashamed of their behavior!

I don't support raising a child in two Churches and I personaly would be uncomfortable standing up in a non-Orthodox baptism. Perhaps you could tell her that you would be honored to be the child's guardian but that you cannot be a Catholic witness. That said my father stood as a witness for his best friends daughter who was raised Catholic and only Catholic and his best friend was an observer at my sister's baptism (who was raised only Orthodox) in both cases they were never really godparents because they were never involved in either girl's religious upbringing, they were just special family friends. So it does happen, and as an extra person looking out for a kid that's great, but participating in a Catholic baptism would make me uncomfortable...

[repentant]

At the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Churches here in Los Angeles, both churches allow a Catholic to serve as one of the godparents as long as there is one Orthodox Christian godparent present who actively participates in the Baptism by denouncing the devil, affirming belief in Christ, and reading the Nicene Creed. The Catholic party does not spread oil on the child or hold the child immediately following the baptism when the Priest anoints the child with Holy Chrism.

I have always seriously questioned this practice because one Catholic godparent told me that she was going to take the child to the Catholic Church every other Sunday. In other words, the parents intended to raise the child in both churches. You must realize that the Catholic Church does give communion to Orthodox Christians. This can cause real confusion in the minds of children. See the true story below.

At my parish, there was one child who was being raised in both churches. He was baptized and chrismated as Orthodox. One day he said that he was a Roman Catholic Orthodox. His classmates ages 6 and 7, said that he could not be a member of both churches and beat him up. He left that parish and started attending only the Catholic Church.

Kurie Elesion...:crosseo: I can't believe they allow this..

[repentant]

Actually, the canons specifically allow for the chrismation without baptism of certain heretics. So the Church has already determined that chrismation without baptism is an appropriate way to receive certain heretics - the question is whether or not Roman Catholics fit this definition or not.

If you're going to try to interpret canons by yourself, which is a bad idea anyway, at least take the time to make sure you've got it right, don't rely on what internet polemicists and schismatics tell you is "Holy Tradition".

Yes, because everything I say is my interpretation, or my opinion right? The 500+ books I have read, and the teachings I have been taught have nothing to do with I am sure. Well let's see what St. Nikodemos says about the Canon. Is he qualified enough for you to interpet Canons?

From the Rudder-
We order any Bishop, or Presbyter, that has accepted any heretics' Baptism, or sacrifice, to be deposed; for "what consonancy hath Christ with Beliar? or what part hath the believer with an infidel?"

"It behooves Orthodox Christians to shun heretics and the ceremonies and rites of heretics. They, i.e., heretics, ought rather to be criticized and admonished by Bishops and Presbyters, in the hope of their apprehending and returning from their error. For this reason the present Canon prescribes if any Bishop or Presbyter shall accept a heretics' Baptism as correct and true, or any sacrifice offered by them, it is ordered that he be dropped. For what agreement hath Christ with the Devil? or what portion hath the believer with an unbeliever?"-St. Nikodemos

So once again someone tries to insult and criticize me without a foot to stand on...

[buzuxi02]

Kurie Elesion...:crosseo: I can't believe they allow this..
My thoughts exactly, unfortunately it does happen. According to one priest, the non-orthodox godparent can only hold the baby but the legitimate one reads the creed and does the important stuff.

[Philothei]

it is up to the Bishops really and they 'turn a blind eye"... arrghhh yeah the dioceses I was in up to now did not allow this nonsense, they were more stict.

BTW let us not confuse "accepting" the Baptism as a valid sacrament ... from another Church with that of "participating" in it. Just because we "accept kat'oikonomia" a bapitsm (not the chirsmation mind you since one needs to be chrismated in the EO church) that does not mean we can either participate in another church's sacrament... or either let other non-orthodox participate in ours....

By the way....the whole idea of Bridesmaids...then it should not take place if we consider them sponsors....so .. that means that this ethimo (custom) has become the norm and of course many bridesmaids and groomsmen are non-orthodox so there.... we break the "rules"...that really proves that the local customs prevail over the canons and we have a historical development of our cannon law like Dr. Patsavos mentions in his article.

God bless,
Philothei

[MsDahl]

I just wanted to give a brief update:

I finally spoke with my priest and he confirmed exactly what was discussed here (by standing up as a "witness" next to the Catholic godparent, I'm basically saying that I condone and give my blessings to the whole situation). He understands why I would want to do it (to bridge a gap in a relationship that seems to be drifting farther and farther apart). Then we had a more in depth conversation. So, thank you all for your replies and I am very much at peace with my decision.

It seems though, that my turning down the new role that my SIL was trying to offer me (I originally accepted when I was under the impression it was to be an Orthodox baptism) has caused offenses in my brother and his wife. They refuse to return my messages to discuss the matter person to person. I didn't want it to get to this point but because I am in God's will, I trust that He will work in this situation in His timing.

[Orthosdoxa]

:hug: Good on ya.

[Theophorus]

How do you feel about standing in as a Christian witness to a Catholic baptism? Do you think it compromises an Orthodox Christian's stance on the issue of Orthodoxy by giving a "stamp of approval" to such a decision? Do you think that it is pretentious to turn down this position on account of this very reason?

I'm open to all Orthodox opinions on this subject. I am waiting to hear from my priest on the matter so I figured I'd hear other Orthodox Christians perspective on this.

Thanks for your time and reponse :)


How did you get yourself into this situation, or have you?

[MsDahl]

How did you get yourself into this situation, or have you?

I was originally asked to by my nephew's sponsor for his Orthodox baptism. Somewhere along the line my SIL changed her mind and decided to baptize him in the Catholic church (she is Catholic) and never said a word to me about this decision, then basically threw it all on me in an email. It was all rather shady the way it went down.

This is twice that I was to be a nouna and twice that fell apart at the seams. I am starting to wonder if I will ever have the honor of such a position.

[Philothei]

I was originally asked to by my nephew's sponsor for his Orthodox baptism. Somewhere along the line my SIL changed her mind and decided to baptize him in the Catholic church (she is Catholic) and never said a word to me about this decision, then basically threw it all on me in an email. It was all rather shady the way it went down.

This is twice that I was to be a nouna and twice that fell apart at the seams. I am starting to wonder if I will ever have the honor of such a position.
I would not sweat over it... I do not mean to sound insensitive either though (forgive me if I do) ...but there will be times and times you will have the chance to be a nouna.:). No need to despair... God will bring forth opportunities for you. No reason to rush things. I was never asked to baptize my niece and nephew but I am a nona of many other.... who are not relatives. I am sure you will make also a wonderful aunt regardless of being a nouna or not....:). and also later on a nouna to some other blessed child.

God bless,
Philothei

[MsDahl]

So, I truly understand what Christ was referring to when He said that He did not come on this earth to bring peace but division in Luke 12. The more I seek His will for my life, my relations with my siblings become more strained. It seems that what was disguised as a question was really an ultimatum, and apparantly, I made the wrong choice in my family's eyes. My choice in the matter even has enraged my father - he thinks I am passing judgment by NOT accepting my SIL's choice and he did not have very nice things to say about my priest or my decision in consulting him. I am outed from attending the baptism at all. :sigh:

What surprises me is that when I was "searching" for God in the Protestant circles, my father would question why I felt the need to stray from the Orthodox church and now that my desire is to remain steadfast in the Orthodox faith, he is questioning that position.

Interestingly enough, this last conversation has left me with an even stronger sense of peace about what God's will is for my position in all this and I trust Him. He will use this for His greater glory - only good will come out of obeying God, in my humble opinion. Although in the past, this would all have grieved me and left my sad, I don't feel any sorrow currently, rather I feel joy and liberation from negative old patterns.

Thank you to those that offered their words of wisdom on this situation. I appreciated the support, it helped me better understand my position.

[Orthosdoxa]

:hug:

Sorry about the family strife. I admire the courage of your convictions, though.

[MsDahl]

Thanks, Orthosdoxa, although I am not surprised at all. I was fully prepared for this reaction. I am surprised at my father's reaction though.

I don't have enough fellowship with other Orthodox Christians. So, for everyone that responded in this thread I thank you again.

[rusmeister]

That's a tough one. It looks like you did the right thing, though. I suppose the best you can do now is to try to hold the door of communication open (even as they may be trying to slam it shut).

I have three godchildren (I'll use English, because I think it's too confusing to use different languages like Greek or Russian here) and they are all in Moscow and I almost never see them. It feels more like a responsibility that I don't do a good job at more than an honor.

[Monica, child of God]

I am so sorry that you are in this situation. I hope that eventually you all will be able to mend the relationships.

M.