Santa Claus?

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave: I was wondering, what do Orthodox parents tell their children about Santa Claus? Do you tell them he's real, or a fairy tale character?
thanks!

[Orthosdoxa]

Ours are going to be told stories of the REAL Saint Nicholas, who is much cooler.

[MoNiCa4316]

Yes, he's much cooler ;)

But if your son or daughter asks you about Santa, what do you tell them?

[Orthosdoxa]

I would tell them that he is a secularized version of a real saint, but as Orthodox Christians, we look to the real servant of God, St. Nicholas, for his humility, for his giving, for his godly life - not a cartoon version of him that's not real.

Even though it's a "harmless" lie, per se, I still don't want to tell them something is real that is not.

My brother told me Santa wasn't real when I was 4, and I don't think I missed anything by not believing in Santa. All I cared about was the presents, anyway. ;) Hopefully my kids will care about more than that!!

I imagine it varies between families. That's just our take on it, though.

How about you?

[Nichole]

What???????????????? There's no Santa Claus???????????? :cry:

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

I would tell them that he is a secularized version of a real saint, but as Orthodox Christians, we look to the real servant of God, St. Nicholas, for his humility, for his giving, for his godly life - not a cartoon version of him that's not real.

Even though it's a "harmless" lie, per se, I still don't want to tell them something is real that is not.

My brother told me Santa wasn't real when I was 4, and I don't think I missed anything by not believing in Santa. All I cared about was the presents, anyway. ;) Hopefully my kids will care about more than that!!

I imagine it varies between families. That's just our take on it, though.

How about you?

That pretty much covers us as well. :thumbsup:

[Dorothea]

Hmm, I kinda combined the two...the real story of St. Nicholas and who Santa Claus is and what he does. :sorry: Santa carries on what St. Nicholas started...kinda like his helper. But I've narrowed it down to just the stockings being filled. No other presents from "Santa."

[Jacob4707]

There ain't no Sanity Clause!

http://www.searchlores.org/images/contract.jpg

A NIGHT AT THE OPERA
CONTRACT SCENE
Hear the contract scene (http://www.searchlores.org/zipped/nato16.ra) :-)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulwl_pYLUOE

Driftwood: All right, fine. Now here are the contracts. You just put his name at the top and you sign at the bottom. There's no need of you reading that because these are duplicates.
Fiorello: Yeah, they's a duplicates.
Driftwood: I say they're duplicates.
Fiorello: Why sure they's a duplicates...
Driftwood: Don't you know what duplicates are?
Fiorello: Sure. There's five kids up in Canada.
Driftwood: Well, I wouldn't know about that. I haven't been to Canada in years. Well go ahead and read it.
Fiorello: What does it say?
Driftwood: Well, go on and read it!
Fiorello: You read it.
Driftwood: All right, I'll read it to ya. Can you hear?
Fiorello: I haven't heard anything yet. Did you say anything?
Driftwood: Well, I haven't said anything worth hearing.
Fiorello: Well, that's why I didn't hear anything.
Driftwood: Well, that's why I didn't say anything.
Fiorello: Can you read?
Driftwood (struggling to read the fine print): I can read but I can't see it. I don't seem to have it in focus here. If my arms were a little longer, I could read it. You haven't got a baboon in your pocket, have ya? Here, here, here we are. Now I've got it. Now pay particular attention to this first clause because it's most important. It says the, uh, "The party of the first part shall be known in this contract as the party of the first part." How do you like that? That's pretty neat, eh?
Fiorello: No, it's no good.
Driftwood: What's the matter with it?
Fiorello: I don't know. Let's hear it again.
Driftwood: It says the, uh, "The party of the first part shall be known in this contract as the party of the first part."
Fiorello: (pausing) That sounds a little better this time.
Driftwood: Well, it grows on ya. Would you like to hear it once more?
Fiorello: Uh, just the first part.
Driftwood: What do you mean? The party of the first part?
Fiorello: No, the first part of the party of the first part.
Driftwood: All right. It says the, uh, "The first part of the party of the first part shall be known in this contract as the first part of the party of the first part shall be known in this contract" - look, why should we quarrel about a thing like this? We'll take it right out, eh?
Fiorello: Yeah, it's a too long, anyhow. (They both tear off the tops of their contracts.) Now, what do we got left?
Driftwood: Well, I got about a foot and a half. Now, it says, uh, "The party of the second part shall be known in this contract as the party of the second part."
Fiorello: Well, I don't know about that...
Driftwood: Now what's the matter?
Fiorello: I no like-a the second party, either.
Driftwood: Well, you should've come to the first party. We didn't get home 'til around four in the morning... I was blind for three days!
Fiorello: Hey, look, why can'ta the first part of the second party be the second part of the first party? Then a you gotta something.
Driftwood: Well, look, uh, rather than go through all that again, what do you say?
Fiorello: Fine. (They rip out a portion of the contract.)
Driftwood: Now, uh, now I've got something you're bound to like. You'll be crazy about it.
Fiorello: No, I don't like it.
Driftwood: You don't like what?
Fiorello: Whatever it is. I don't like it.
Driftwood: Well, don't let's break up an old friendship over a thing like that. Ready?...
Fiorello: OK! (Another part is torn off.) Now the next part, I don't think you're gonna like.
Driftwood: Well, your word's good enough for me. (They rip out another part.) Now then, is my word good enough for you?
Fiorello: I should say not.
Driftwood: Well, that takes out two more clauses. (They rip out two more parts.) Now, "The party of the eighth part..."
Fiorello: No, that'sa no good. (more ripping.) No.
Driftwood: "The party of the ninth part..."
Fiorello: No, that'sa no good, too. (they rip the contracts again until there's practically nothing left.) Hey, how is it my contract is skinnier than yours?
Driftwood: Well, I don't know. You must've been out on a tear last night. But anyhow we're all set now, aren't we?
Fiorello: Oh sure.
Driftwood (offering his pen to sign the contract): Now just, uh, just you put your name right down there and then the deal is, uh, legal.
Fiorello: I forgot to tell you. I can't write.
Driftwood: Well, that's all right, there's no ink in the pen anyhow. But listen, it's a contract, isn't it?
Fiorello: Oh sure.
Driftwood: We got a contract...
Fiorello: You bet.
Driftwood: No matter how small it is...
Fiorello: Hey, wait, wait. What does this say here? This thing here.
Driftwood: Oh, that? Oh, that's the usual clause. That's in every contract. That just says uh, it says uh, "If any of the parties participating in this contract is shown not to be in their right mind, the entire agreement is automatically nullified."
Fiorello: Well, I don't know...
Driftwood: It's all right, that's, that's in every contract. That's, that's what they call a 'sanity clause'.
Fiorello: Ha ha ha ha ha! You can't fool me! There ain't no Sanity Clause!
Driftwood: Well, you win the white carnation.
Fiorello: I give this to Riccardo.

[Protoevangel]

I don't like lying to my children... Even "cutsie" lies.

[rusmeister]

I've always thought there is a serious problem with Orthodox parents, who tell their kids the Gospel and lives of saints (and want to be believed) also telling them that a given fairy tale is true. Many Orthodox Christians (like Frederica Mathewes-Green) agree with this position.

Others think it's harmless. My wife, for example (the Russian Grandfather Frost - a similar, yet different character).

I just keep quiet when she talks about "Dyed Moroz".

[Dorothea]

We talked over the Santa deal with our priest. He wasn't crazy about the whole Santa thing. When I told him our approach, he seemed to think it was ok...kinda the best we could do if Santa is in the picture, so to speak.

[Rowan]

Ours are going to be told stories of the REAL Saint Nicholas, who is much cooler.

Agreed.

I'll also try to teach them not to be jerks about it to other kids, too, but if they are so compelled, just to share the story of St. Nicholas lovingly <---makes all the difference...

Although it's probably too early for me to think about such things.

*goes off to be young*

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks for the replies :)
If I had kids I would tell them that Santa isn't real right from the start. I mean..what if I cause them to believe in Santa, and when they'll find out that he's made up they'll think I lied about Jesus too? I know some atheists who put God in the same category as the Tooth Fairy, and who knows, maybe that's somehow linked to their childhood.
I don't think my kids would really miss out on much. They can still have lots of fun on Christmas without believing in Santa. I never really believed in him and I was a happy kid. LOL.

I was watching a news program about kids writing letters to Santa...and many of them sounded like prayers, wishing for their families to be happy, etc. I was touched by how unselfish many of their letters were, not asking anything for themselves but only for others. But..I kept on thinking, do these kids know about God?
Then, "Santa" was interviewed, and he stayed in character and said that he was happy that kids believe in him.
Maybe I'm overreacting..but that just made me feel kinda said. I know the people who are organizing this have the best intentions, but I wonder if these kids know that Santa can't answer their requests, but God can. I wouldn't want my kids to believe something that's false, no matter how cute and fun it is.

[MariaRegina]

I did not tell my son about Santa Claus.
He watched a TV movie and wanted to believe in Santa Claus.

He knew that cartoons were not real, but he could not understand that Santa Claus is not real.

He thought that Santa Claus could magically shrink and fit down the chimney.

[SeraphimSarov]

I'm getting married in about eight months so this has been weighing heavily on my mind... I kind of think just talking about the real St. Nicholas is probably healthier. There's no believing or disbelieving involved that way -- you can't dispute that the man existed. :)

[Thekla]

we had to "transition", so now we talk about St. Nicholas and the "historical/folklore" changes...

My (non-orthodox) mom handled the whole thing fairly well, I thought. When asked if Santa Claus was real, she would respond:
"Santa Claus is a symbol of love. Love is real."

[Rowan]

That was pretty tasteful of her, Thekla.

[nikostheater]

That was pretty tasteful of her, Thekla.
This

[Monica, child of God]

I never told my son stories about Santa even when we were Protestant. Since I didn't grow up Christian, it never really seemed to make sense to me.

As an Orthodox parent, I celebrate St. Nicholas day with my son. I give him religious gifts like icon pendants, and prayer books. I also give him a bag of those gold foil wrapped chocolate coins in memory of the dowry that he provided for the poor sisters and we read strories about St. Nicholas.

M.

[Thekla]

As an Orthodox parent, I celebrate St. Nicholas day with my son. I give him religious gifts like icon pendants, and prayer books. I also give him a bag of those gold foil wrapped coins in memory of the dowry that he provided for the poor sisters and we read strories about St. Nicholas.

M.

:thumbsup:

[Xpycoctomos]

We'll focus on the real sotries of St Nicholas, who he was and asked for his intercessions. We won't focus on the reality or fakeness of Santa Clause until/unless he asks. No presents will coem from Santa in our house but I am sure they will from my wife
s parents.. and we just aren't going to fight that. My parents never did anything with Santa and they handled it much the same way as we intend to.

[MsDahl]

When asked if Santa Claus was real, she would respond:
"Santa Claus is a symbol of love. Love is real."

I love this resonse :thumbsup: !

I have prayed about it and discussed this with my spouse. I knew that Santa was not real at a young age and I still felt my Christmases were very magical. I was able to enjoy the stories about the elves in the North Pole even though I knew that it was made up. Why? Because I viewed Santa Claus in a similar way that I viewed cartoons or stories that were filled with fantasy. As I matured, I was able to celebrate it because I understood the symbolism behind it.

I truly appreciated knowing the truth early on but I also treasure the one memory I have of waiting up as long as I can with my older brother for Santa's arrival (I was probably 3 or 4 at the time). Not to mention that it is unavoidable in the society I live in for my son to learn about Santa. So, what my spouse and I have agreed on in regards to this very serious issue for Orthodox parents is:

- we do not encourage the celebration of Santa. For example: we don't put a present under the tree from Santa, we haven't taken him to have a picture with Santa (aside from religious reasons, I just don't like the idea of my child sitting on the lap of a complete and utter stranger and in my case it would be forcing him as he is still wary of strangers especially in costume), et cetera.

- if our child grabs on to the idea of Santa Claus we will allow him the time to enjoy.

- when he asks us if Santa is real, we will not lie to him. That is when Thekla's line comes in to play very nicely!!!

[xenia]

One of my parents really emphasized the whole Santa myth when I was little and when (at an embarrassingly advanced age) I realized it wasn't real, this same parent mocked me for believing in it in the first place. This kind of sums up my relationship with that parent, so the Santa myth makes me cranky.

[ma2000]

In the (Romanian) mythology, Mos Craciun (Old Craciun - Santa Claus) was the brother of Mos Ajun.
When St Joseph and the Theotokos arrived to Bethleem, they couldn't find a place to stay. They asked Mos Ajun for a place to stay. He refused saying he is poor and has no place for them, but adviced them to ask his richer little brother, Craciun, for a place to stay. Craciun only let them stay in the stable. Finding out that St Mary is pregnant, Craciuneasa, Craciun's wife helps Mary deliver the baby Jesus. Craciun finds out and punishes her by cutting off her hands. When Craciun finds out that the baby Jesus is our Lord, he repents and becomes the first Christian and "the oldest of the saints". The next day he gave away all his fortune to the poor kids, thus starting the tradition of Santa Claus giving presents to children on the Christmas day.

[Shubunkin]

I didn't have my children believe in Santa Claus, because I felt it an unnecessary lie. My mother-in-law overrode me, told the kids I was crazy, that there was a Santa Claus. It really got them confused.

[SaintMarina]

I didn't have my children believe in Santa Claus, because I felt it an unnecessary lie. My mother-in-law overrode me, told the kids I was crazy, that there was a Santa Claus. It really got them confused.

That's what I'm afraid of. We're going to do something very similar to what Orthodoxa described earlier. Already my father and my MIL have started Santa Clausing our 2 yr. old.

[Akathist]

Many of the families in my parish teach that Santa Claus is a story that was written and lots of people like to tell kids that he is real and act like he is real, so be careful about not spoiling things for other people.

It is an interesting way of helping even little ones understand that we are not of this world.

But at the same time, leaving thier shoes out for "Santa" to put candy in is also something I know some people in the parish do. (or maybe stockings but I secifically remember the shoes being left out... on St. Nicholas day... not Christmas.)

Last year I remember someone asking a group of kids (at church) "What did Santa Claus bring you?" Their answer was: "We don't open our presents until after we get home from the service."

I smiled. They didn't want to disappoint an adult who believed in Santa either! ;)

[Dorothea]

Many of the families in my parish teach that Santa Claus is a story that was written and lots of people like to tell kids that he is real and act like he is real, so be careful about not spoiling things for other people.

It is an interesting way of helping even little ones understand that we are not of this world.

But at the same time, leaving thier shoes out for "Santa" to put candy in is also something I know some people in the parish do. (or maybe stockings but I secifically remember the shoes being left out... on St. Nicholas day... not Christmas.)

Last year I remember someone asking a group of kids (at church) "What did Santa Claus bring you?" Their answer was: "We don't open our presents until after we get home from the service."

I smiled. They didn't want to disappoint an adult who believed in Santa either! ;)
A family that used to go to my sister's church back in the mid to late 1990s, and now is at the Greek Church in Shreveport, does the "leave the shoe out for St. Nicholas" deal. I've never really asked what people do about Santa in any of my parishes. I assumed they just did. I know the folks at my sister's church every year have a huge Christmas party a couple weeks or less before Christmas, and "Santa" shows up towards the end of the evening and gives out presents. It's that family's tradition, it seems.

[Mytheodos]

This film looks interesting..

http://www.nicholasofmyra-movie.com/teaser_poster.jpg

[Greg the byzantine]

Wait I thought it was Agios Vasilis (St. Basil)
who brought the presents :P

[nikostheater]

Yes,i can't wait!
I hope that the film will portray the historical St Nicholas and not a mix of the saint and santa claus...
I t will be awesome movie i hope!

[nikostheater]

Well,in Greek tradition yes,it is Saint Basil (Αγιος Βασίλειος) that brings the presents.He is great saint too!His biography is so inspiring...
Every year,at the night the year changes,in every Greek home we do the ceremony of the cutting the cake of Saint Basil.
The host of the house with a knife is doing the sign of the cross on the cake,he says "Into the name of the Father,the Son and to the Holy Spirit,Amen"(εις το όνομα του Πατρός και του Υιου και του Αγίου Πνέυματος,Αμήν).After that,he cuts the cake in slices,with the first slice for Jesus Christ,the second for the Holy Theotokos,the third for Saint Basil,and after that the slice for the host,the host's wife,the children etc...
We eat the cake and we try to find the "flouri",a coin inside the cake.We are doing this to remember the miracle of saint Basil that he did by hiding jewels inside cakes and after that each jewel went to it's owner miraculously.
The next day,the children are going from house to house singing kalanta,songs for the new year and for Saint Basil.
:)

[Monica, child of God]

One of my parents really emphasized the whole Santa myth when I was little and when (at an embarrassingly advanced age) I realized it wasn't real, this same parent mocked me for believing in it in the first place. This kind of sums up my relationship with that parent, so the Santa myth makes me cranky.

That is so messed up :(

M.

[Nichole]

This film looks interesting..

http://www.nicholasofmyra-movie.com/teaser_poster.jpg
That link doesn't pull anything up. Says problem loading page! :(

[Mytheodos]

Try this Link...

http://www.nicholasofmyra-movie.com/nicholasofmyra_small.htm

[Dorothea]

Wow! That movie looks awesome! Is that coming out here in the U.S.?!! It looks like a U.S.-made movie, but I'm surprised if it is!

eta: Oh, I see it premiered Christmas Day 2006, non-theatrical.

[nikostheater]

No,i think the movie wil be out for theatrical release at christmas 2008.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

It's targeted for Christmas 2008 release. I can't wait!

[Dorothea]

Fantastic!

[Mytheodos]

here's the trailer...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbe4PvH1RIc

[Mytheodos]

oops.. Try this link..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbe4PvH1RIc

[Nichole]

AWESOME!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: I can not wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Dorothea]

That was great, Mytheodos! It looks beautiful. I'm just shocking that the film industry has created this! What a blessing!

[Thekla]

this looks promising: thanks for the 'heads up' :)

(looks like an independent...)

[Jacob4707]

oops.. Try this link..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbe4PvH1RIc

From the movie Website:

Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like they are going to include his role at the Council of Nicea where he slapped Arius and hence lost his standing as a bishop, only to have it restored when the Lord and the Theotokos appeared in visions/dreams to the other bishops and told them that Nicholas had acted rightly and righteously. Boy, would I love to see THAT portrayed as part of the film.

BEFORE THERE WAS THE MYTH,
THERE WAS THE MAN.
http://www.nicholasofmyra-movie.com/nicholas.jpg (http://www.nicholasofmyra-movie.com/nicholas.htm)
Orphan, saint, immortal… Nicholas was said to have been born to Greek parents in the city of Patara during the latter part of the Third Century A.D., on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea. Orphaned while still young, Nicholas inherited his father's vast fortune, a catalyst to a journey of self-discovery that one day led him to the city of Myra (presently Demre, Turkey). There he came to live a dual life, as a devout bishop by day, and an anonymous gift-bearer by night. Few people know of the many legends that surround his namesake, even fewer know the story behind the Saint.
Nearly three hundred years after The Christ's death, The Roman Empire (http://www.nicholasofmyra-movie.com/map.htm) had grown vast. Too large for one emperor to rule alone, it had been divided among four. The persecution of Christians had also burgeoned, culminating in the early part of the Fourth Century, while Nicholas was the Bishop of Myra. Every faithful Christian was soon martyred or imprisoned by the four Caesars of Rome. The most ruthless of which was Diocletian, who ruled in the East. A countless number suffered under his reign, including Nicholas. It was during this era of intolerance and cruelty that The Christ's influence would reach a defining moment in history. After enduring years of persecution, the imprisoned Nicholas suddenly received word that an improbable crusade had begun. An effort was underway to once again unite the Empire under a single ruler, one who promised to bring an end to the persecutions, one who was known as Constantine.
With the Empire in conflict around him, Nicholas would then be forced to confront the greed of a corrupt Roman Governor, a deceitful conspiracy against Constantine and his trusted General, and an insidious threat to the children of Myra. The stage had been set for events that would bring to pass a turning point in history, and one of the most endearing legends of all time.

[rusmeister]

On the general OP, there's nothing wrong with myth and fantasy per se. After all, Christianity is a 'myth' which happens to be true - the one Myth that fulfilled or mirrors all the others.
The problem comes when we present something mythical (small 'm') as true, and worse when it replaces the true object of Christmas.

[rusmeister]

Uh, I'm getting a "We're sorry, this movie is no longer available..."

[MariaRegina]

I just listened to it.

[Xpycoctomos]

I'm getting married in about eight months so this has been weighing heavily on my mind... I kind of think just talking about the real St. Nicholas is probably healthier. There's no believing or disbelieving involved that way -- you can't dispute that the man existed. :)
I wouldn't let it weigh too heavily. In the end, what will matter, more than your approach to Santa and the Easter Bunny, is that you go to Church, pray with your family and raise them morally. that's the harder part and regardless of what your kids believe about Santa will be THE role in what faith they grow up. And this is coming from someone who is quite personally adament that my kids will not be exposed to Santa PURPOSELY in our house. Even I realize it's really not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. I just think it gets sick when Christmas is ALL about Santa and by virtue materialism (or is it the other way around?).

Xpy

[MsDahl]

rus, I agree with your comments about myth and fantasy.

I just wanted to add that my church is having a Christmas party for the kids and supposedly Santa is making an appearance. I don't plan on attending though - I'm just not interested in encouraging this belief. On the other hand, as I said if my child grabs hold to the belief, I won't squash the idea immediately (I don't watch Curious George with him and comment that monkeys don't really talk - I see it as the same thing). But when he asks me the truth, I refuse to lie to my child.

[prodromos]

Last year I remember someone asking a group of kids (at church) "What did Santa Claus bring you?" Their answer was: "We don't open our presents until after we get home from the service."
This is where I appreciate the old tradition of giving gifts to celebrate St Nicholas or St Basil. We exchange gifts on Jan 1, the feast day of St Basil. This means that Christmas day has all its focus on Christ, so the kids aren't thinking about what loot they're going to get all through the liturgy.

[-Kyriaki-]

Prodromos - OUCH. I have to confess, that was me as a kid. Most of the time, too, we'd attend church with my grandmother who is anglican, and we weren't used to a liturgical service so we were even more easily distracted.

I did find my name in the book of common prayer though one Christmas, and that kept me amused for a few more anglican services!

[Chocolatesa]

I can't wait to see that movie... I'm gonna get a copy of it when it comes out.

[MoNiCa4316]

On the general OP, there's nothing wrong with myth and fantasy per se. After all, Christianity is a 'myth' which happens to be true - the one Myth that fulfilled or mirrors all the others.
The problem comes when we present something mythical (small 'm') as true, and worse when it replaces the true object of Christmas.

That sounds like something that CS Lewis/JRR Tolkien would say ;) :thumbsup:
I don't think there's anything wrong with myth either, I just wouldn't want my children to believe that Santa is real when he is not...I'd probably tell them that he is a character in a fairy tale, and they can still have fun with that. I did. :)
The problem I have with Santa Claus is that there's such a focus on him, instead of Christ...maybe it's our materialistic culture.

[MoNiCa4316]

That's cool about the film! :D :thumbsup:

[cassc]

"Santa Claus is a symbol of love. Love is real."

Thats really beautiful!

Agreed.

I'll also try to teach them not to be jerks about it to other kids, too, but if they are so compelled, just to share the story of St. Nicholas lovingly <---makes all the difference...
A very important lesson

Although it's probably too early for me to think about such things.

*goes off to be young*
That's great Rowan :)

Saint Nicholas of Myra is my patron Saint so of course I did grow up knowing about the real Saint Nick. But I also loved the story of Santa Claus, I wanted to believe in in even him even when my parents said there was no such thing because as Thekla's mother pointed out Santa was in my mind synonymous with love. I would rather have people believe in Santa than nothing if it brings out good will. As to what I will tell my children it's hard to say but I teach my Sunday School students to focus on Christ not Santa or gifts.