What are we? Heretics? Lost? Brothers/Sisters?

[Ishida]

Just wondering what you think of us Protestants. Are we damned to hell for not being within the church? Given it's an offense to worship/pray with us. And please do not refer to the Sunday Christians, Televangelists, and such, but those who go out there and live for God. If a protestant were to aspire to become a missionary, would you all oppose it due to their heretical belief? If we're not damned, then what is the point of being in full communion with the church?

[MariaRegina]

Christ told us not to judge our brothers and to call no one a fool.

Will you go to hell? Will I go to hell? Hopefully neither of us will receive everlasting punishment reserved for the damned.

Protestant Missionaries are just not welcomed in Orthodox Christian countries. I really don't think a Baptist minister would appreciate our coming into his church as passing out Orthodox brochures either.

If we worship with non-Orthodox Christians then we give the wrong impression that all Christian denominations are the same. Most importantly, our Church is not a denomination. Christ founded the Holy Orthodox Church in 33 A.D.

[AJB4]

Just wondering what you think of us Protestants. Are we damned to hell for not being within the church? Given it's an offense to worship/pray with us. And please do not refer to the Sunday Christians, Televangelists, and such, but those who go out there and live for God. If a protestant were to aspire to become a missionary, would you all oppose it due to their heretical belief? If we're not damned, then what is the point of being in full communion with the church?
Trust me, I do know what it looks like from the outside. I've grown up with the beliefs that you just described, so I've been wondering the same thing (I'm just an inquirer see?).

It does seem a little heavy. Say, have you ever thought of speaking to a real-life Orthodox priest or something, and asking him the same question? It would be a good idea if you ask me.

[buzuxi02]

Just wondering what you think of us Protestants. Are we damned to hell for not being within the church? Given it's an offense to worship/pray with us. And please do not refer to the Sunday Christians, Televangelists, and such, but those who go out there and live for God. If a protestant were to aspire to become a missionary, would you all oppose it due to their heretical belief? If we're not damned, then what is the point of being in full communion with the church?
Your question is posted in a way which represents the western idea of original sin. That those not baptised and/or outside the church are sent to hell.

In Orthodoxy evil people are sent to hell regardless of religious affiliation. I'm pretty confident that Hitler will be sent to hell, but not because he isnt Orthodox, its because he was plain old evil. Likewise with Stalin, i dont say he is going to hell because he was an apostate, but because he was a ruthless murderous dictator.

Hell is not a place prepared for people belonging to the wrong religious affiliation, its a place for the demonic souls who have severed themselves from the Love of God.

The whole point of the Church is that its the fullness of the gospel. All that has been revealed is safeguarded there without distortion, and all the graces of mystery reside there and is available for the taking. I'm not saying all members of the Church take advantage of this, hardly, but for whoever wants it, it is there for the taking. Diving into the mystical life of the Church and partaking of what she has to offer is the best medicine for immortality and a sure way towards theosis and a sure way to the bosom of Abraham.

[Ishida]

Your question is posted in a way which represents the western idea of original sin. That those not baptised and/or outside the church are sent to hell.

In Orthodoxy evil people are sent to hell regardless of religious affiliation. I'm pretty confident that Hitler will be sent to hell, but not because he isnt Orthodox, its because he was plain old evil. Likewise with Stalin, i dont say he is going to hell because he was an apostate, but because he was a ruthless murderous dictator.

Hell is not a place prepared for people belonging to the wrong religious affiliation, its a place for the demonic souls who have severed themselves from the Love of God.

The whole point of the Church is that its the fullness of the gospel. All that has been revealed is safeguarded there without distortion, and all the graces of mystery reside there and is available for the taking. I'm not saying all members of the Church take advantage of this, hardly, but for whoever wants it, it is there for the taking. Diving into the mystical life of the Church and partaking of what she has to offer is the best medicine for immortality and a sure way towards theosis and a sure way to the bosom of Abraham.
We're all evil, I think. Original sin or not, are you without it? You're just as guilty as he, don't you think? (w/o Christ anyways..)

ABJ4, when I learn to drive, I plan to go to an Orthodox Church to see what it looks like in real life. I doubt I'd have the guts to just talk to the priest, I can't just approach people and talk to them, don't know why. If they let me in that is..

Thanks for the replies.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

We're all evil, I think. Original sin or not, are you without it? You're just as guilty as he, don't you think? (w/o Christ anyways..)

We all have sin, the issue with Original Sin is a big deal, though. We believe that we are guilty of our own sins and not the sin of Adam. I never really gave it a lot of thought as a Protestant but since becoming Orthodox, it has become very noticeable when talking with Protestants.

Just recently I was browsing in the Luteran forum and read a thread about if aborted babies go to hell and I was shocked at how many seemed to imply they did since they had never had the opportunity to accept Jesus. The whole issue was centered around the Western view of Original Sin, that we are born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

If I build a meth lab in my house and get busted, losing my house and cars, my wife and son will certainly suffer the effects of my sin but they won't be thrown in prison with me.

Now, regarding the OP, I admire the zeal of most of the Protestants I know and I admire their love of the Scriptures and the good works they do. I love them, they are wonderful people. That's why I'd love to see them come into the fullness of what God intended Christian life and worship to be, holy Orthodoxy.

Something else that might help clarify why we view those outside the Church the way do. This could easily be taken in an offensive way but I don't intend it to be so.

It seems that, to many Protestants, Christ is a device through which salvation is obtained rather than the Person who decides who is saved. We're lost so we go to Christ, repent and are saved in a kind of spiritual transaction. Those who don't do that, no matter if they had a chance or not, can't be saved. Christ has no say in the matter.

We believe that God saves who He wills to save. (Rom 9:15) Like buzuxi02, I am very doubtful that Hitler and Stalin will be in Heaven but if Christ chooses to save them, it is entirely in His power to do so. I'm sure as heck not going to complain if He chooses to save someone.

Anyway, that's part of why we differ on how we view things and why we won't say that anyone is going to hell.

I realize this is pretty disjointed but I got up early and haven't had my coffee yet so please forgive me.

[Orthosdoxa]

We're all evil

Do you not think it's possible for anyone to become TRULY holy, and stop sinning? If not, then why does the Bible waste so much space commanding us to be holy and perfect, if it doesn't really mean it like that, or it knows no one can get there anyway?

I plan to go to an Orthodox Church to see what it looks like in real life. I doubt I'd have the guts to just talk to the priest, I can't just approach people and talk to them, don't know why. If they let me in that is..


Of course they'll let you in, goof. :D I see you're from Cleveland - I *THINK* we might have some Clevelandites around here who could direct you, or even meet you there.

Try reading up on some church history - it might put some of this stuff in context. I'll check back later - my little son is wailing right now.

[Orthosdoxa]

Ok, well, little boy is happy for the moment, with his jug of milk, and his Kix to eat with his fingers. :) So let me ramble on about a few further things, and see if we can get anywhere.

1 - The word "heretic" does not have the same connotation in the East that it does in the west. You come to it with it loaded with all kinds of presuppositions (which is quite understandable!!!) - but what we mean by it is, "someone who is outside the Orthodox Church". No more, no less. And technically, I think you actually have to have BEEN Orthodox, then left to embrace some other teachings, to be declared as such. So there's really not as much to sweat over as you think there is.

That being said, most of us here know it's a loaded word for those with a western understanding of it, and choose not to use it so much. I cringe when people throw it around like candy, but I can't control what other people do. So I ask you to look at the bigger picture here.

2 - I don't know how much you know about early Church history, but let's just look at a couple things (in an extremely oversimplified manner - we can do more in depth later).

The Church began at Pentecost, and began to spread. And there were no denominations - there was just the one Church. Unfortunately, sinful human nature being what it is, people began to stray from what the Apostles had handed down, and make up their own stuff. A man named Montanus began to teach that it was good and right to baptize people in the name of "The Father, the Son, and Montanus"! A man named Arius began to teach that Jesus wasn't REALLY God; just the highest of all created beings. And... people began to follow these teachings! The Church wasn't just going to sit idly by while such was happening, or say, "Oh, it's ok that we all believe drastically different things- we're all the same!" NO. (And aren't you glad they didn't?! I am!!!) It declared such things heretical, and fought vigorously against them. And these are just two examples.

What the Apostles handed down was pretty clear, and anytime it WASN'T clear, a council was called, for the leaders of the Church to discern the Holy Spirit. The first of these councils was described in Acts 15.

There were 5 ancient Patriarchal sees - Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

In 1054, Rome split from the other 4, and the Church of Rome has been adding to and subtracting from the ancient doctrines ever since. (Of course, Rome's side of the story is that the other 4 sees are the ones who messed up, and that all the changes that have been made are right, but this is the Orthodox board, so we're telling OUR side. ;))

And - we call what Rome did heresy. It left the ancient Church, and it left the ancient teachings. 500 years later, the Protestant Reformation was born, and while Martin Luther may have meant well, he went about it completely wrong. He was right that Rome was doing things that were NOT taught by the Apostles or practiced in the early Church, but...he was as wrong as Rome.... because just like Rome, he then invented new doctrines that had never been seen before, instead of returning to the Church that had held on to the ancient doctrines all along - the Orthodox Church. And since the Reformation, the western church has continued to splinter further and further and further. It was only at THIS time that the doctrine of an "invisible Church" became necessary, and was invented - it had never been heard of in all of Christianity before.

So yeah, we're pretty invested into holding on to the ancient, ancient teachings, and no, we don't do the ecumenical thing of, "Oh, even though we're totally different, we're all just the same!" Frankly, I think ecumenism at its heart is about making people feel good, rather than about TRUTH.

BUT...... I feel like I need to tattoo this on my forehead, because we say it so often.... WE ABSOLUTELY DO NO JUDGE ANYONE'S SALVATION.... not even our own. (It is in fact a deadly sin to judge the salvation of another.) (I know that's different to you, but bear with us.) The Church is the Ark, as foreshadowed in the Old Testament. Are there people on life rafts out there who might make it through the storm? I dunno!!! We don't tell God what to do. But I know I'd rather be on the Ark.

I know this was a LOT to digest (if you actually read it all ;)) Take it by bits and pieces, and don't see things that are different than your beliefs as an attack - ask questions instead!!! :hug:

[Ishida]

I myself, am not sure on original sin or not.. I won't say yes or no, but we are guilty of our own sins, that much is true. Thank you for clearing up the "heretic", but it'll never look nice, guess that's because I'm western. Thanks for the history as well, I <3 history. :D

[Dorothea]

I don't know about us all being evil. According to the Orthodox Study Bible under the Basis of God's Judgment, there is this:

“By nature” (Rom. 2:14) people are inspired by and cooperate with God’s grace. Therefore, good deeds are natural to us, whereas evil deeds are contrary to God’s law in our conscience (Rom. 2:15) condemns anything we do which is contrary to true human nature.

[SeraphimSarov]

Just wanted to pop in and say that this has been one of the most edifying threads I've seen in awhile... keep it up! :)

[Dogbrain]

As St. Theophan the Recluse once wrote to one of his spiritual children:

"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins..."

In other words, we as individual Orthodox are to be more worried about the states of our own souls and leave others up to the Mercy of God.

[AJB4]

As St. Theophan the Recluse once wrote to one of his spiritual children:

"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins..."

In other words, we as individual Orthodox are to be more worried about the states of our own souls and leave others up to the Mercy of God.
Welcome Dogbrain!

[Heorhij]

Greetings,

Personally, I think of you, Protestants, as my dearly beloved brothers and sisters in Christ who are just like Orthodox catechumens. You believed, and you were baptized in the name of the Most Holy Trinity, so you are by all means Christians. However, you are not in Church yet; you are like those who wait in the church yard, before the entrance doors, waiting to enter and be chrismated.

I had the pleasure to read articles written by some very respected, learned Orthodox clergy (priests and bishops), where you guys are greatly praised for your faith. We have a lot to learn from you.

Best wishes,

Heorhij (George)

[orthros]

Ok, well, little boy is happy for the moment, with his jug of milk, and his Kix to eat with his fingers. :) So let me ramble on about a few further things, and see if we can get anywhere.

1 - The word "heretic" does not have the same connotation in the East that it does in the west. You come to it with it loaded with all kinds of presuppositions (which is quite understandable!!!) - but what we mean by it is, "someone who is outside the Orthodox Church". No more, no less. And technically, I think you actually have to have BEEN Orthodox, then left to embrace some other teachings, to be declared as such. So there's really not as much to sweat over as you think there is.

That being said, most of us here know it's a loaded word for those with a western understanding of it, and choose not to use it so much. I cringe when people throw it around like candy, but I can't control what other people do. So I ask you to look at the bigger picture here.

2 - I don't know how much you know about early Church history, but let's just look at a couple things (in an extremely oversimplified manner - we can do more in depth later).

The Church began at Pentecost, and began to spread. And there were no denominations - there was just the one Church. Unfortunately, sinful human nature being what it is, people began to stray from what the Apostles had handed down, and make up their own stuff. A man named Montanus began to teach that it was good and right to baptize people in the name of "The Father, the Son, and Montanus"! A man named Arius began to teach that Jesus wasn't REALLY God; just the highest of all created beings. And... people began to follow these teachings! The Church wasn't just going to sit idly by while such was happening, or say, "Oh, it's ok that we all believe drastically different things- we're all the same!" NO. (And aren't you glad they didn't?! I am!!!) It declared such things heretical, and fought vigorously against them. And these are just two examples.

What the Apostles handed down was pretty clear, and anytime it WASN'T clear, a council was called, for the leaders of the Church to discern the Holy Spirit. The first of these councils was described in Acts 15.

There were 5 ancient Patriarchal sees - Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

In 1054, Rome split from the other 4, and the Church of Rome has been adding to and subtracting from the ancient doctrines ever since. (Of course, Rome's side of the story is that the other 4 sees are the ones who messed up, and that all the changes that have been made are right, but this is the Orthodox board, so we're telling OUR side. ;))

And - we call what Rome did heresy. It left the ancient Church, and it left the ancient teachings. 500 years later, the Protestant Reformation was born, and while Martin Luther may have meant well, he went about it completely wrong. He was right that Rome was doing things that were NOT taught by the Apostles or practiced in the early Church, but...he was as wrong as Rome.... because just like Rome, he then invented new doctrines that had never been seen before, instead of returning to the Church that had held on to the ancient doctrines all along - the Orthodox Church. And since the Reformation, the western church has continued to splinter further and further and further. It was only at THIS time that the doctrine of an "invisible Church" became necessary, and was invented - it had never been heard of in all of Christianity before.

So yeah, we're pretty invested into holding on to the ancient, ancient teachings, and no, we don't do the ecumenical thing of, "Oh, even though we're totally different, we're all just the same!" Frankly, I think ecumenism at its heart is about making people feel good, rather than about TRUTH.

BUT...... I feel like I need to tattoo this on my forehead, because we say it so often.... WE ABSOLUTELY DO NO JUDGE ANYONE'S SALVATION.... not even our own. (It is in fact a deadly sin to judge the salvation of another.) (I know that's different to you, but bear with us.) The Church is the Ark, as foreshadowed in the Old Testament. Are there people on life rafts out there who might make it through the storm? I dunno!!! We don't tell God what to do. But I know I'd rather be on the Ark.

I know this was a LOT to digest (if you actually read it all ;)) Take it by bits and pieces, and don't see things that are different than your beliefs as an attack - ask questions instead!!! :hug:
PEACE.....I ENJOYED YOUR COMMENTS VERY MUCH; THEY HELPED ME A LOT BEING THAT I AM CATHOLIC SEARCHING INTO ORTHODOXY. YOU LAID OUT THE HISTORY IN A VERY EXPLICIT AND CONCISE MANNER - I HAVE HEARD THIS BEFORE AND IT REINFORCED SOME THINGS FOR ME.....GOD BLESS! "orthros"

[Lukaris]

Greetings,

Personally, I think of you, Protestants, as my dearly beloved brothers and sisters in Christ who are just like Orthodox catechumens. You believed, and you were baptized in the name of the Most Holy Trinity, so you are by all means Christians. However, you are not in Church yet; you are like those who wait in the church yard, before the entrance doors, waiting to enter and be chrismated.

I had the pleasure to read articles written by some very respected, learned Orthodox clergy (priests and bishops), where you guys are greatly praised for your faith. We have a lot to learn from you.

Best wishes,

Heorhij (George)
Welcome to the TAW forum. blessed Nativity.

[Heorhij]

Welcome to the TAW forum. blessed Nativity.
Thank you!