Do you know whats in Vaccines???do your children get them?

[Koontzy]

Me and my wife recently signed a religious exemption for vaccines for both our kids.... Upon researching it alot I realized some things i didnt even know...

alot of vaccines are produced using aboted fetal tissue, antifreeze, phamaldyhide(sp?) and other cancer causing agents.... I am wondering if anyone else knew this, and whether or not you get these vaccines... for info you can look at the following websites;

http://www.cogforlife.org/
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/aborted_fetus_vaccines.htm
http://www.cogforlife.org/vaxproof.htm

theres also a $20,000 dollar offer to any physician or pharmacutical rep that will drink a vaccine of the same amount that a 6 year old child would recieve... No one has taken the offer yet.. I wonder why not...

the website link for that is http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Health_Concerns/Vaccines/twenty-thousand_dollar_offer.htm it says::::

$20,000 Offer


***PRESS RELEASE***

THE FOLLOWING OFFER is made to U.S.-licensed medical doctors who routinely administer childhood vaccinations and to pharmaceutical company CEOs worldwide:
Jock Doubleday, president of the California nonprofit corporation Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc., hereby offers $20,000.00 (U.S.) to the first medical doctor or pharmaceutical company CEO who publicly drinks a mixture of standard vaccine additive ingredients in the same amount as a six-year-old child is recommended to receive under the year-2000 guidelines of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
The mixture will not contain viruses or bacteria dead or alive, but will contain standard vaccine additive ingredients in their usual forms and proportions. The mixture will include, but will not be limited to: thimerosal (a mercury derivative), ethylene glycol (antifreeze), phenol (a disinfectant dye), benzethonium chloride (a disinfectant), formaldehyde (a preservative and disinfectant), and aluminum.
The mixture will be prepared by Jock Doubleday, three medical professionals that he names, and three medical professionals that the participant names. The mixture will be body weight calibrated.
The participant agrees, and any and all agents and associates of the participant agree, to indemnify and hold harmless in perpetuity any and all persons, organizations, or entities associated with the event for any harm caused, or alleged to be caused, directly or indirectly, to the participant or indirectly to the participant's heirs, relations, employers, employees, colleagues, associates, or other persons, organizations, or entities claiming association with, or representation of, the participant, by the participant's participation in the event.
Because the participant is either a professional caregiver who routinely administers childhood vaccinations, or a pharmaceutical company CEO whose business is, in part, the sale of childhood vaccines, it is understood by all parties that the participant considers all vaccine additive ingredients to be safe and that the participant considers any mixture containing these ingredients to be safe.
The event will be held within six months of the participant's written agreement to the above and further elaborated terms. This offer, dated January 29, 2001, has no expiration date unless superceded by a similar offer of higher remuneration.
Contact Jock Doubleday at jockdoubleday@aol.com.

Jock Doubleday
President
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California Nonprofit Corporation
P.O. Box 1794
Ojai, CA 93024
http://www.gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org (http://www.gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org)
jockdoubleday@aol.com


I am wondering what ya'all think, because my stance is against.......
there are tons of website... I only gave you two, but there are thousands more...


thanks

God Bless

[daveleau]

Please beware f these sites and this (mis)information. Vaccines are not made of antifreeze or aborted tissues. That is ludicrous, and while antifreeze would kill the recipient of the shot, aborted fetus tissue serves no medical purpose, and would only increase the price of the vaccine, and is thus not true.

Most vaccines consist solely of saline (pH balanced water) and a heat inactivated version of the virus or bacteria that causes the illness. Some vaccines include only antibodies that engage the immune system rather than heat inactivated viruses and bacteria.

The information in the links above is very irresponsible.

If you want to kill your children, listen to the information in the post and links above. If you value your children's lives, ignore and vaccinate your children.

Polio, measles, rheumatic fever and other debilitating illnesses have been all-but eradicated by vaccines. Please don't let these resurface because of irresponsible information from crackpots and conspiracy theorists that say these are sinful or harmful.

Dave

[Koontzy]

Please beware f these sites and this (mis)information. Vaccines are not made of antifreeze or aborted tissues. That is ludicrous, and while antifreeze would kill the recipient of the shot, aborted fetus tissue serves no medical purpose, and would only increase the price of the vaccine, and is thus not true.

Most vaccines consist solely of saline (pH balanced water) and a heat inactivated version of the virus or bacteria that causes the illness. Some vaccines include only antibodies that engage the immune system rather than heat inactivated viruses and bacteria.

The information in the links above is very irresponsible.

If you want to kill your children, listen to the information in the post and links above. If you value your children's lives, ignore and vaccinate your children.

Polio, measles, rheumatic fever and other debilitating illnesses have been all-but eradicated by vaccines. Please don't let these resurface because of irresponsible information from crackpots and conspiracy theorists that say these are sinful or harmful.

Dave
I hate to disagree with you, but I have actually seen the packages vaccines come in... My friend is a nurse... so I know the ingrediants are true...
take a look at
http://www.909shot.com/Vaccine%20Excipients%20CDC.pdf

or you can ever call the companies that make the vaccines, thats what me and my wife did... after being put on hold for 15 mins the person comfirmed the ingrediants....

dont listen to what doctors tell you...and if you dont believe that site...
http://www.tetrahedron.org/images/layout/spacer.gif
http://www.tetrahedron.org/images/layout/hr_dotted.gif

[Koontzy]

do you know what the Physicians Referance Desk is? its a book that has the vaccine ingrediants... ask your doctor to see it...

heres what the 1997 book has to say
Vaccine Ingredients and Contact Info
Dawn Winkler
Source: 1997 Physicians' Desk Reference
Toll Free Numbers can be called to obtain product inserts
This is a representative, not a comprehensive, list of the various types of vaccines
Acel-Immune
DTaP
Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed
Lederle Laboratories
1-800-934-5556
produced using formaldehyde, thimerosal, aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, polysorbate 80, gelatin

Act HIB
Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (Hib) Tetanus Toxoid Conjugate
Connaught Laboratories
1-800-822-2463
produced using ammonium sulfate, formalin, sucrose, thimerosal
medium: semi-synthetic

Attenuvax
Measles Virus Vaccine Live
Merck & Co, Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using neomycin, sorbitol, hydrolized gelatin
medium: chick embryo

DPT
Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed
SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals
1-800-366-8900 ext. 5231
produced using aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde, ammonium sulfate, washed sheep red blood cells, glycerol, sodium chloride, thimerosal
medium: porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
Energix-B

Hepatitis B
SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals
1-800-633-8900 ext. 5231
produced using aluminum hydroxide, thimerosal
medium: yeast (possibly 5% residual)

Havrix
Hepatitis A
SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals
1-800-633-8900 ext. 5231
produced using formalin, aluminum hydroxide, phenoxyethanol (antifreeze), polysorbate 20, residual MRC5 proteins (from medium)
medium: human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)

Biavax
Rubella and Mumps Virus Vaccine Live
Merck & Co, Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using neomycin, sorbitol, hydrolized gelatin
medium: human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)

HibTiter
Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (Hib)
Lederle Laboratories
1-800-934-5556
produced using polyribosylribitol, ammonium sulfate, thimerosal
medium: chemically defined, yeast based

Fluvirin
Influenza Virus Vaccine
Medeva Pharmaceuticals
1-888-MEDEVA
(716)274-5300
produced using embryonic fluid (chicken egg), neomycin, polymyxin, thimerosal, betapropiolactone
medium: embryonic fluid (chicken egg)

FluShield
Influenza Virus Vaccine, Trivalent, Types A&B
Wyeth-Ayerst
1-800-934-5556
produced using gentamicin sulfate, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80, tri(n)butylphosphate, thimerosal
medium: chick embryos

IPOL
Inactivated Polio Vaccine
Connaught Laboratories
1-800-822-2463
produced using 3 types of polio virus, formaldehyde, phenoxyethanol (antifreeze), neomycin, streptomycin, polymyxin B
medium: VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells

MMR
Measles Mumps Rubella Live Virus Vaccine
Merck & Co., Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using sorbitol, neomycin, hydrolyzed gelatin
mediums: M&M - chick embryo
Rubella - human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
M-R-Vax
Measles and Rubella Virus Vaccine Live
Merck & Co., Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using neomycin, sorbitol, hydrolyzed gelatin
mediums: M - chick embryo
R - human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)

Menomune
Meningococcal Polysaccharide Vaccine
Connaught Laboratories
1-800-822-2463
produced using thimerosal, lactose
medium: freeze dried polysaccharride antigens from Neisseria Meningitidis

Meruvax II
Rubella Virus Vaccine Live
Merck & Co., Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using neomycin, sorbitol, hydrolyzed gelatin
medium: human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)

Mumpsvax
Mumps Virus Vaccine Live
Merck & Co., Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using neomycin, sorbitol, hydrolyzed gelatin
medium: human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)

Orimune
Poliovirus Vaccine Live Oral Trivalent
Lederle Laboratories
1-800-934-5556
produced using 3 types of attenuated polioviruses, streptomycin, neomycin, calf serum, sorbitol
medium: monkey kidney cell culture

Pneumovax
Pneumococcal Vaccine Polyvalent
Merck & Co., Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using phenol and capsular polysaccharides from the 23 most prevalent pneumococcal types

Prevnar
Pneumococcal 7-valent Conjugate Vaccine
Lederle Laboratories
1-800-934-5556
produced using Diphtheria CRM197 Protein, capsular antigens of Sreptococcus pneumoniae serotypes 4, 6B, 9V, 14, 18C, 19F, and 23F individually conjugated to Diphtheria CRM197 Protein, soy peptone broth, ammonium sulfate, aluminum phosphate
medium: yeast extract based

Imovax
Rabies Vaccine Adsorbed
Connaught Laboratories
1-800-822-2463
produced using human albumin, neomycin sulfate, phenol red indicator
medium: human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)

Rabies Vaccine Adsorbed
SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals
1-800-366-8900 ext. 5231
produced using betapropiolactone, aluminum phosphate, sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate (thimerosal), phenol red
medium: fetal rhesus monkey lung cells
Recombivax

Hepatitis B Vaccine Recombinant
Merck & Co., Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using thimerosal, aluminum hydroxide
medium: yeast (residual < 1% yeast protein)

RotaShield
Rotavirus Vaccine, Live, Oral, Tetravalent
Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories
1-800-934-5556
produced using 1 rhesus monkey rotavirus, 3 rhesus-human reassortant viruses, sucrose, monosodium glutamate (MSG), potassium monophosphate, potassium diphosphate, fetal bovine serum, neomycin sulfate, amphotericin B
medium: fetal rhesus diploid cell line

Varivax
Varicella Virus Vaccine Live
Merck & Co., Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using sucrose, phosphate, monosodium glutamate, processed gelatin
medium: human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
According to IVAC, (Illinois Vaccine Awareness Coalition 708-848-0116) all vaccines contain monosodium glutamate even if not listed in product insert. According to numerous sources, all vaccines contain thimerosal (mercury). Manufacturers have declared that it is not possible to produce any vaccine without these two components.
Chemical Profiles and Definitions
Sources: EDF (Environmental Defense Fund) & MME (Mosby's Medical Encyclopdia)

Ammonium Sulfate: EDF Suspected - gastrointestinal or liver toxicant
neurotoxicant
respiratory toxicant

Amphotericin B: MME definintion - "a drug used to treat fungus infections. Known allergy to this drug prohibits use. Side effects include blood clots, blood defects, kidney problems, nausea and fever. When used on the skin, allergic reactions can occur."

Aluminum: EDF Suspected - cardiovascular or blood toxicant neurotoxicant respiratory toxicant
More hazardous than most chemicals in 2 out of 6 ranking systems
On at least 2 federal regulatory lists

Beta-Propiolactone: EDF Recognized - carcinogen
EDF Suspected - gastrointestinal or liver toxicant
respiratory toxicant
skin or sense organ toxicant
More hazardous than most chemicals in 3 out of 3 ranking systems
On at least 5 federal regulatory lists
Ranked as one of the most hazardous compounds (worst 10%)to humans

Formaldehyde: EDF Recognized - carcinogen
Suspected - gastrointestinal or liver toxicant
immunotoxicant
neurotoxicant
reproductive toxicant
respiratory toxicant
skin or sense organ toxicant
More hazardous than most chemicals in 5 out of 12 ranking systems
On at least 8 federal regulatory lists
Ranked as one of the most hazardous compounds (worst 10%) to ecosystems and human health

Gentamicin Sulfate: an antibiotic
Hydrolyzed Gelatin: obtained from selected pieces of calf and cattle skins, de-mineralized cattle bones (ossein) and porkskin

Monosodium Glutamate: Normally used as a flavor enhancer in a variety of foods, however, due to concerns expressed by the American Academy of Pediatrics, MSG was removed from all products intended for use in infants under the age of one. Injections of glutamate into laboratory animals have resulted in damage to nerve cells in the brain.

Neomycin: an antibiotic

Phenol : EDF Suspected - cardiovascular or blood toxicant aka Carbolic Acid
developmental toxicant
gastrointestinal or liver toxicant
kidney toxicant
neurotoxicant
respiratory toxicant
skin or sense organ toxicant
More hazardous than most chemicals in 3 out of 10 ranking systems
On at least 8 federal regulatory lists

Phenoxyethanol: EDF Suspected - developmental toxicant aka Antifreeze
reproductive toxicant
Less hazardous than most chemicals in 3 ranking systems

Polyribosylribitol: a component of the Hib bacterium

Polymyxin: an antibiotic

Polysorbate: EDF Suspected - skin or sense organ toxicant

Sorbitol: EDF Suspected - gastrointestinal or liver toxicant
Less hazardous than most chemicals in 1 ranking system
Streptomycin: an antibiotic
Sucrose: refined sugar

Thimerosal: EDF Recognized - development toxicant
Suspected - skin or sense organ toxicant

Tri(n)butylphosphate: EDF Suspected - kidney toxicant
neurotoxicant
More hazardous than most chemicals in 2 out of 3 ranking systems
On at least 1 federal regulatory list

[Koontzy]

I didnt go into this without studying, talking to doctors, and lawyers, and not look up info...I know alot of internet stuff you dont believe... but I also know doctors are full of crap alot of the times
call the numbers I gavce on that list... thats the book the doctors use.....ask the companies to tell you if its correct..... ask them for an packet(you can get one sent to you)

[Koontzy]

I hate to say it but the website children of god for life, is a great organization and not a misinformed one..... if you looked you would know that:)
Ok and heres anothero one... this time from the CENTER For Disease Control Website..... they arent misinformed are they? http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf
God Bless

since this post wes reported I just want to say, that the info is 100 pecent accurate...... I alreayd gave CDC's own website...I did email a admin stating this...... but want a mod to see that I posted CDC's (Center For Disease Control and Prevention)own website to back up my info.... also listed is the companies numbers, so you can call to get the truth.......

Doctors are always misinforming people,. and I feel everyone should be able to see what is in these drugs that we are giving our children.... I will not be, but if someone wants to then thats quite allright... I dont mind if this post is removed, but I felt that people should know, that what doctors arent saying can cause harm..

The reason I posted this thread is because I wanted ot hear other fellow Baptists views on vaccines and what they have learned, or feel biblically towards them.,..I am sorry that I offended Dave, but I do know that my info is true.....I can back it up also, as I did with the CDC's own website

thanks and God Bless

[DeaconDean]

To what purpose does this thread serve?

If you have a problem with vaccines, fine, don't take them.

Would "conspiracy fit in here?

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0317219/265.jpg (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0009200/photogallery-4)

Its a conspiracy man, the governments feeding us a bunch of lies man.

Cars, Walt Disney Pictures, George Carlin as Fillmore, Copyright 2006

Anybody remember when pennicillen was "the devils tool?"

God Bless

Till all are one.

[FreeinChrist]

I, for one, believe the sites listed in the OP are VERY VERY bias and not exactly truthful at all.

however, I am not sure what purpose this thread serves.

[edb19]

http://www.immunize.org/safety/

http://www.immunize.org/concerns/

http://www.cispimmunize.org/

[edb19]

Disclaimer: this is not a substitute for professional medical advice

[daveleau]

Here is a popular website describing the issue: http://www.apologia.com/vaccines/vac_safe.html

From the journal "Nature," the journal that is only topped by "Science" in scientific circles for prestige:
http://www.nature.com/nri/journal/v1/n2/abs/nri1101-160a.html

An expose by "Time" magazine: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1683542,00.html


Me and my wife recently signed a religious exemption for vaccines for both our kids....

What is your religious reasoning for signing the religious exemption?

In Him,
Dave

[PaladinGirl]

Actually, some vaccines are indeed made using aborted fetal tissue. I am sickened by that. I do get a flu vaccine every year but I hope it wasn't made using aborted fetal tissue.

[Koontzy]

First let me say... this topic started as I was wondering if any other Baptists got exemption for religious reasons.... when I filled mine out they thought I was a Jehovah Witness, since I guess most that do the exemptions are......

My biblical basis for not getting immuzied are

The Bible teaches that there are clean and unclean animals and that God's people are not to put the unclean into their bodies (Deuteronomy 14) Furthermore, the Bible teaches that Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself;..(Deuteronomy 14:21) and hut flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (Genesis 9:4)Vaccines are often made of, or in bodies, fetuses or eggs of said unclean creatures. The process of creating the vaccine often causes said creatures to die in the process (i.e., dieth of itself). Many vaccines are made in or of the blood of diseased animals. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (I Corinthians 6:19,20)The Bible teaches children are a gift from God to the parents (Psalm 127:3) and further teaches the parents (not the state) are entrusted with the care and welfare of the child (I Timothy 5:8). The Bible also teaches there have been times in history when evil government and government employees have attempted through force, intimidation color of law to harm and destroy the children of God's people (Exodus I and 2 and Matthew 2)The Bible teaches that when man's law contradicts God's Law, His people must obey God over men. But Peter and the apostles answered and said, '"We must obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29) There is much Bible Case Law in support of this position such as Daniel Vs Darius (Daniel 6) and Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego vs Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3:13). Concerning the safety of children, both the Hebrew midwives (Exodus 1) and the parents of Moses (Exodus 2) refused to obey the law of man that put the children in peril. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict. (Hebrew 11:23)


I have more, but decided not to list them:) this is from a paper my church printed out for the people who wanted ot get the exemption(my wife helped type it) so its our beliefs also:) well my wife typed most of it...

[daveleau]

Jesus said "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'"

Rom 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Rom 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
Rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Rom 13:5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
Rom 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
Rom 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Evidence of the benefits of vaccinations God gave us seems to put this in favor of vaccination:
1Ti 5:8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Acts 15 shows how the Apostles broke with OT law which Jesus fulfilled (ie- circumcision, or eating pork, or dealing with unclean things)

In Gal 5 and 6, Paul explains how the Mosaic law is fulfilled and we are free from it.

As for the argument for Moses, again, the same claim holds that this idea stands in stark contrast with withholding medicine/vaccines from children.

[shrewdsnake]

No I haven't. My son is getting all his vaccinations. I couldn't live with myself if he got polio or hep B when I could have prevented it. I seemed to have lived through my vaccines just fine. As far a the flu shot I thought they used eggs, as in chicken.

[Canuckmom]

I think this is quite an emotionally charged subject! I do believe everyone has to be free in their own conscience about this issue.
We didn't have our family immunized. I was raised without also - my parents simply believed that if all things are providentially ordained of God than what ever disease you are meant to get you will get. Thus they considered it a lack of faith and trust in God's care for us to take such an unnatural method as immunization. When I became a mom I started studying the medical aspect of the issue, and then I decided that I'd rather trust the Lord with my child's health than to put potentially harmful and unatural substances into a young child's body. It is true that fetal tissue is used to grow some of the vaccines. I also know doctors who don't vaccinate their children because they know the risks - there is a percentage of children who have nasty side effects. Apparently autism was unheard of before immunizations started. It is also debatable if immunizations have really reduced communicable diseases or was that due to improved sanitation and nutrition.

[TexasSky]

I am afraid you have been misinformed about a lot of things, vaccines are not made from aborted fetal tissue.

They also save lives. I know. I've seen the world before and after.

When I was very litte, polio was very common. It was something everyone I knew feared. The vaccine came out when I was a child. I know people, a few years older, who are suffering from recurrences of polio that they suffered as children. I don't know anyone younger than I am that even knows what polio was really like (except of course health professionals or relatives of polio victims.)

Measles was a horrible thing. It terrified people. My children don't even know what it is.

Whopping cough almost killed my sister. My children don't know what it is.

My family has a lot of native americans. Some of the old timers talk about the small pox epidemics in the tribes. I never knew what it was like because I had a shot as a child.

Don't throw the world into the horror of diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps and rubella because of mis-information. Please don't.

[TexasSky]

I think this is quite an emotionally charged subject! I do believe everyone has to be free in their own conscience about this issue.
We didn't have our family immunized. I was raised without also - my parents simply believed that if all things are providentially ordained of God than what ever disease you are meant to get you will get. Thus they considered it a lack of faith and trust in God's care for us to take such an unnatural method as immunization. When I became a mom I started studying the medical aspect of the issue, and then I decided that I'd rather trust the Lord with my child's health than to put potentially harmful and unatural substances into a young child's body. It is true that fetal tissue is used to grow some of the vaccines. I also know doctors who don't vaccinate their children because they know the risks - there is a percentage of children who have nasty side effects. Apparently autism was unheard of before immunizations started. It is also debatable if immunizations have really reduced communicable diseases or was that due to improved sanitation and nutrition.
I take a different approach.
I think that God gave us the doctor's and research scientists and nurses, ergo, trusting Christian doctors, in my eyes, is putting faith in the Lord.

The Lord provides us with food, but he expects us to work for it. To hunt and gather.

If someone in a family is in a tragic car accident and needs emergency medical care, few Christians who refuse vaccines will refuse emergency medical care to stop bleeding or to set broken bones. I don't understand that.

[Vambram]

I am afraid you have been misinformed about a lot of things, vaccines are not made from aborted fetal tissue.

They also save lives. I know. I've seen the world before and after.

When I was very litte, polio was very common. It was something everyone I knew feared. The vaccine came out when I was a child. I know people, a few years older, who are suffering from recurrences of polio that they suffered as children. I don't know anyone younger than I am that even knows what polio was really like (except of course health professionals or relatives of polio victims.)

Measles was a horrible thing. It terrified people. My children don't even know what it is.

Whopping cough almost killed my sister. My children don't know what it is.

My family has a lot of native americans. Some of the old timers talk about the small pox epidemics in the tribes. I never knew what it was like because I had a shot as a child.

Don't throw the world into the horror of diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps and rubella because of mis-information. Please don't.

Very well said, and I completely agree with you. :wave: :thumbsup: :amen: :groupray:

[BigNorsk]

Human cells lines are used in many vaccines today. It makes sense if you think about it. You are reproducing viruses which take over cells and use them to reproduce. For some, we have alternative hosts that are used, but for some human diseases, we really don't have alternative hosts or artificial media on which we can grow them.

It is true too that many of the vaccines are indeed produced from cell lines of aborted humans. Now you have to make the religious judgement of if you contribute to that death by now using that cell line. The children were not aborted with the intention of creating the cell lines for vaccines.

It would be similar to would you receive an organ donation from someone who was murdered? Would receiving the organ contribute to murder and promote murder?

And if you take those verses as a prohibition on those vaccines you can't really stop there. Then organ translplants and blood donations are also clearly prohibited if you interprete them in such a way as to prohibit taking a vaccine made with human cells. And groups that do not take vaccines on a religious basis understand them exactly that way.

If you don't believe that, then the appeal to those verses to justify not get vaccinated is simply an appeal of convenience.

Now as to the other substances, many of which are toxins. It is indeed necessary to use things to prevent the growth of other things, such as bacteria in the vaccines. Especially when using live animals, contamination is a major problem. The thing to remember is the old adage, the dose makes the poison.
Table salt for instance is poisonous, and it doesn't take that much either. At the same time, we require a certain amount of sodium to live.

Interestingly, the tissue culture of which people are complaining, has been one of the things that has let less antibiotics and preservatives be used in vaccine production.

And I would add that anyone that thinks that public sanitation is so wonderful that epidemics wouldn't happen without vaccines hasn't worked in public health. You can't even get the majority of people to wash their hands, and culturally through schools and sporting events and such we get together with hundreds if not thousands all the time. And we have proof if you simply think about it. If our water and sanitation practices were sufficient, we shouldn't get the common cold, nor the flu. Really public health sanitation was in place in many places that had polio epidemics, measles epidemics and so on. The diseases were not brought under control until vaccination was a part of the mix.

Marv

[Epiphoskei]

vaccines are not made from aborted fetal tissue.

Not all are, but some are. The only rubella vaccinations avalable in America are produced from cell lines originating in an abortion done in the 1960's. American Rubella vaccines all contain cells cultured from cells coming from the lung of an aborted sweedish girl, and experimentation was carried out on 28 fetuses in all.

That's unacceptable.

However, there are only a few dozen vaccines that use these kinds of cell lines, and ethical alternatives exist in all cases except Rubella, Hepetitis A, and Chickenpox (and there are ethical alternatives for Rubella and Hepetitis A in Japan and Europe). So no, don't create a vaccination scare. Vaccinations are good. People should get them. But do your research before you get a vaccination. Use of cell lines from aborted fetuses is wrong as abortion itself.

[edb19]

As far a the flu shot I thought they used eggs, as in chicken.


you thought right

[TexasSky]

Not all are, but some are. The only rubella vaccinations avalable in America are produced from cell lines originating in an abortion done in the 1960's. American Rubella vaccines all contain cells cultured from cells coming from the lung of an aborted sweedish girl, and experimentation was carried out on 28 fetuses in all.

That's unacceptable.

However, there are only a few dozen vaccines that use these kinds of cell lines, and ethical alternatives exist in all cases except Rubella, Hepetitis A, and Chickenpox (and there are ethical alternatives for Rubella and Hepetitis A in Japan and Europe). So no, don't create a vaccination scare. Vaccinations are good. People should get them. But do your research before you get a vaccination. Use of cell lines from aborted fetuses is wrong as abortion itself.
I know this story is all over the internet, however, the manufacturers of the rubella vaccine have denied this claim.

Please be careful about repeating such things.

[Koontzy]

I am afraid you have been misinformed about a lot of things, vaccines are not made from aborted fetal tissue.

They also save lives. I know. I've seen the world before and after.

When I was very litte, polio was very common. It was something everyone I knew feared. The vaccine came out when I was a child. I know people, a few years older, who are suffering from recurrences of polio that they suffered as children. I don't know anyone younger than I am that even knows what polio was really like (except of course health professionals or relatives of polio victims.)

Measles was a horrible thing. It terrified people. My children don't even know what it is.

Whopping cough almost killed my sister. My children don't know what it is.

My family has a lot of native americans. Some of the old timers talk about the small pox epidemics in the tribes. I never knew what it was like because I had a shot as a child.

Don't throw the world into the horror of diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps and rubella because of mis-information. Please don't.

You are misinformed...as stated already.... CDC says it themselves...... The CDC(Center for Disease Control and Prevention says they are made with aborted fetal tissue? so your telling me that the CDC who regulates the vaccines are misinformed... I think not...
search, call around and see... dont believe everything our goverment,doctors, or liberal media tell you....

I was suprised the CDC would says it themselves,,, but they have... they also have on their site(which i posted a link to) all the stuff thats in vaccines....

I am sorry you saw those things, but I have seen people get them that have had vaccines also....so it goes both ways... vaccines are not 100 percent effective all the time..

[Koontzy]

I know this story is all over the internet, however, the manufacturers of the rubella vaccine have denied this claim.

Please be careful about repeating such things.
so your telling me because they say that it doesnt you trust them? haha.....thats bad.... do some research on it...it does contain it... Hate to say it.I dont have anything against people that get vaccinated.... But I wish people would stop believing everything their doctors tell them without researching it...
I had a doctor once tell my grandpa he had cancer, and had only 6 months to live...... My grandpa said ok and went on with it...
after 2 years he will still kicking fine, and went to see another doctor, and he never had cancer... doctors misdiagnose things everyday, I have also caught some doctors flat out lieing to me...

so I always study before everything.... and my study has led to that most vaccines have poisions in them, plain and simple:)

God Bless

[DeaconDean]

Again, to what purpose does this thread serve?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[NDNgirl4ever]

Smallpox is GONE. The last case was in the 70s. Do you know why it's gone? It's because the world health orgnaization launched massive vaccine campains. Because of vaccines, niether you or your children have to worry about dying from that horrible disease. I think we should thank God that He gave us the knowledge to prevent those deaths!

The numbers of people with polio have gone WAY down in the US, again largely because of massive vaccinations. Polio does still exsist, but we could eradicate it if people vaccinated their children against it!

Vaccines are good things. They help a LOT. Sure there are risks to vaccines. Heck, there are risks to asprin. However, anti-vaccine groups blow the risk way out of proportion. Fact is, compared to the number of people who get vaccines everyday, the risk of serious complication is quite low. The majority of people recieving vaccines come out just fine.

My mother has been sick since the day she was born with severe allergies. In fact, she can't take most medications, including a lot of immunizations. She became a nurse three years before I was born. I recieved all my vaccines on time. She supports vaccinations 100%, and trust me, she's well aware of medication risks both, personally and professionally. She saw what can happen if you contract these diseases. So she did the right thing and protected me from them.

I too am in the medical field, and I hope to become a nurse. I am happy that I got vaccinated, and when I have kids, I will make sure they are vaccinated as well. I believe that it is the best thing.

I know retro is in, but the polio epidemic is not something we want to bring back!

[FreeinChrist]

I don't know the purpose. It iseems to be off topic to the forum. And I am concerned that 'medical advice' is being given which goes against true medical advice.

A friend of mine was born before the rubella vaccine, as I was. Her mother was exposed to rubella in the first trimester, and my friend was born profoundly deaf. My mother was exposed and as a result, I was born with spina bifida occulta. I'm blest that it is so minor.

I thank God for the discovery of the rubella vaccine. As a school RN, I STRONGLY recommend the MMR to parents. Their daughters may not suffer but their grandchildren of unprotected mothers sure could. There have been HUGE studies in 3 different parts of the world involving 25,000 children in each study. Have the children got the MMR and half did not. There was no difference in the rate of autism between the 2 groups. I am sick of reading the claims that it causes autism - autism just develops about that time.

As to the question of the vaccines being from aborted fetuses, maybe this will help from Tufts University:

http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/~kdo/children/vaccination.html

"Fetal tissue"

One sometimes hears that vaccines contain "tissue from aborted fetuses", which is not true. No tissue that came from any fetus is in the vaccine. What is true is that some cell cultures were established decades ago using cells from aborted fetuses, and that viruses for vaccinations are grown in those cell cultures. But no cell that came from a fetus is part of the vaccine, and no abortions are performed as part of the process of vaccine production

[Ephesians4]

Why is this in the Baptist forums? Request that this be moved to the medical section for a better discussion.

[jsimms615]

You can get all kinds of wierd information on the internet. You could beware of what sources you use. My kids and I have gotten all necessary vaccines for school and work and nothing bad has happened as a result of them.

[Epiphoskei]

I know this story is all over the internet, however, the manufacturers of the rubella vaccine have denied this claim.

Please be careful about repeating such things.

The manufacturers of the Rubella virus most certainly have not denied it, they admit it clearly.
Merck's own web page says so:
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf
This page clearly states that those two cell lines are used on page one, and if you follow the first endnote to the references, it cites a study titled: "Studies of Immunization done with Rubella Virus: Trials in Children with a Strain from an Aborted Fetus."

Merck denies nothing. They made a vaccine by expeimenting on human fetuses.

The virus from RA 27/3, which was taken from an aborted fetus, was then inserted in WI-38, which was taken from the lung of a little girl aborted three months from conception.

I don't know the purpose. It iseems to be off topic to the forum. And I am concerned that 'medical advice' is being given which goes against true medical advice.

A friend of mine was born before the rubella vaccine, as I was. Her mother was exposed to rubella in the first trimester, and my friend was born profoundly deaf. My mother was exposed and as a result, I was born with spina bifida occulta. I'm blest that it is so minor.

I thank God for the discovery of the rubella vaccine. As a school RN, I STRONGLY recommend the MMR to parents. Their daughters may not suffer but their grandchildren of unprotected mothers sure could. There have been HUGE studies in 3 different parts of the world involving 25,000 children in each study. Have the children got the MMR and half did not. There was no difference in the rate of autism between the 2 groups. I am sick of reading the claims that it causes autism - autism just develops about that time.

As to the question of the vaccines being from aborted fetuses, maybe this will help from Tufts University:

http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/~kdo/children/vaccination.html
Yes, if you do not vaccinate for Rubella, there is risk. But the vaccine remains immoral. I am fully aware that the vaccine does not contain cells produced from abortions. I have made it clear that I know they are from cell lines cultured from a few specific aborted fetuses. But taking advantage of those murders is no less immoral.

As far as the medical advice goes, I agree, it's silly. I'm vaccinated for just about everything I can be and, except for rubella, I wouldn't have it any other way. But medical ethics are a legitimate topic for any religious forum, and there is somthing to be discussed here. The moment a society believes that it can exchange one life for another, take advantage of a muder, or sacrifice the few involuntarily for the sake of the greater good, we begin to act like God.

It is our duty to protect the most defenseless in society. Instead we experimented on them to improve our own lives, and we have fallen to the state where we think that kind of behavior is permissable. If this is not an abomination before the Lord, what is?

[Abbadon]

(I'll be back with part two of this post later, I gotta go).


Folks, I have a question. If someone gets and abortion regardless of whether or not people get flu shots, then what's the point for not using the aborted embryo for beneficial purposes? I doubt very very much that there's anyone out there getting abortions just to have the tissue used for vaccines, that issue is more than likely something that the doctor deals with afterward.

antifreeze, phamaldyhide(sp?) and other cancer causing agents....

Uhhh.... Anything in large enough doses is poisonous, and most stuff that is normally poisonous can provide particular benefits in small enough doses.

Red meat causes cancer, are you going to give up red meat? Well, there's still fish, but then again, fish often contain mercury... Gee, could it be that pretty much anything causes cancer, and that aside from stuff like smoking, it's mostly a matter of family history that determines whether or not someone gets cancer?

theres also a $20,000 dollar offer to any physician or pharmacutical rep that will drink a vaccine of the same amount that a 6 year old child would recieve... No one has taken the offer yet.. I wonder why not...

You drink orange juice, right? Guess what, if you injected orange juice into your viens, it'd kill you. Injecting stuff and drinking stuff are two completely different things.

human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)

Hate to break it to you, but all mammals have diploid cells, and they aren't necessarily reproduction-related. Diploid simply means that the DNA is a combination of half the DNA of the subject's mother and half the DNA of the subjects father. None of the official sources you site actually say anything about gathering diploid cells from abortion, and even then, stillborn babies, placenta, and umbilical cords would provide a more ready source than aborted fetuses. It isn't necessary to abort an embryo to get stuff from it, either, amniocentesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amniocentesis) relies on this.

dont listen to what doctors tell you...

Oh, right, we're to take medical advice from those that have no medical training. *Pulls out leeches.*

I know alot of internet stuff you dont believe...

Dude, you do realize that this alone absolutely destroys your credability, right?

I hear the exact same thing from folks that believe the moon landing was faked, folks that believe the Jews were responsible for 9-11, and folks that think satan-worshipping aliens control the government. The internet is NOT a reliable source, especially for stuff that is "shocking" that "they" don't want you to know about, especially if it doesn't make it on the news. This would shock the nation, and shocking the nation sells, so news organizations would pick it up to sell it.

Ok and heres anothero one... this time from the CENTER For Disease Control Website..... they arent misinformed are they?

The only stuff regarding human tissue I'm seeing is Albumin, which is a replenishable resource. Last time I donated blood, I lost some albumin which grew back along with the blood I lost.

The Bible teaches that there are clean and unclean animals and that God's people are not to put the unclean into their bodies (Deuteronomy 14)

So you don't eat pork, then?

Furthermore, the Bible teaches that Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself;..(Deuteronomy 14:21) and hut flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (Genesis 9:4)

So no rare steaks, then?

Deuteronomy 14:21 goes on to say that "You may give it to the alien who is in your town, so that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner," in other words, Gentiles (non-Jews) are exempt. Deut 14:21 is also innapplicable because it refers to animals that die natural deaths from disease or old age.

Vaccines are often made of, or in bodies, fetuses or eggs of said unclean creatures. The process of creating the vaccine often causes said creatures to die in the process (i.e., dieth of itself).

The creatures do not "dieth of itself" to dieth of itself means it died a natural death from old age or disease.

Also, are your aware that the kosher food laws do not apply to gentiles or anyone under the new covenent?

1 Timothy 4:1-5 states "...in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; ... commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

Colossians 2:16 says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

Many vaccines are made in or of the blood of diseased animals.

But we don't eat or drink the vaccines, and it isn't the blood of the diseased animal that is injected, it's the weakened disease.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (I Corinthians 6:19,20)The Bible teaches children are a gift from God to the parents (Psalm 127:3) and further teaches the parents (not the state) are entrusted with the care and welfare of the child (I Timothy 5:8).

This is why I would get a vaccine if I had a weaker immune system, and why (if I had children) I would get my children vaccines, to avoid sickness.

The Bible also teaches there have been times in history when evil government and government employees have attempted through force, intimidation color of law to harm and destroy the children of God's people (Exodus I and 2 and Matthew 2)

How dare you vainly compare yourself to the martyrs fed to lions in Rome, those shoved in gas chambers and furnaces in Nazi Germany, those taken behind sheds and shot and forgotten in Communist Russia, those locked away in China, and those persecuted in Sudan. We have it really damn good in this country (occupied by a more than 60% majority of church going Christians). You make me ashamed to be a Baptist.

The Bible teaches that when man's law contradicts God's Law, His people must obey God over men.

But when it's your interpretation of God's law and your misinterpretation of medicine against the laws of man, we're free to pick what we want.

Concerning the safety of children, both the Hebrew midwives (Exodus 1) and the parents of Moses (Exodus 2) refused to obey the law of man that put the children in peril.

This is inapplicable, the government isn't requiring abortions and executions of all male children.

As far a the flu shot I thought they used eggs, as in chicken.

Most do, or they require replenishable human tissue, or other stuff. The only vaccine in all the stuff he listed that actually uses anything remotely relating to embryos are a few mumps and measles vaccines, and I've yet to see anything that requires that the embryos be aborted.

Thus they considered it a lack of faith and trust in God's care for us to take such an unnatural method as immunization.

But you live in an unnatural house to protect you from weather. I'm sure you have an unnatural refrigorator to keep your food from naturally rotting.

I believe it was Ray Harryhousen's Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger where there was a line "Trust in God, but tie up your camel."

Apparently autism was unheard of before immunizations started.

Because that was the time people started realizing that the kid had a serious problem and wasn't just "stupid."

[Epiphoskei]

Folks, I have a question. If someone gets and abortion regardless of whether or not people get flu shots, then what's the point for not using the aborted embryo for beneficial purposes? I doubt very very much that there's anyone out there getting abortions just to have the tissue used for vaccines, that issue is more than likely something that the doctor deals with afterward.

Principle, a rejection of Pragmatism, and respect for the image of God in man.

The cell lines do not belong to us. They belong to the murdered childred, whose blood is calling out for justice.

And, I will say again, the cell line RA 27/3 which is an ingredient in every rubella vaccine was developed by scientists who aborted 27 fetuses explicitly for the sake of medical experimentation.

[TexasSky]

The manufacturers of the Rubella virus most certainly have not denied it, they admit it clearly.
Merck's own web page says so:
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf
This page clearly states that those two cell lines are used on page one, and if you follow the first endnote to the references, it cites a study titled: "Studies of Immunization done with Rubella Virus: Trials in Children with a Strain from an Aborted Fetus."

Merck denies nothing. They made a vaccine by expeimenting on human fetuses.

The virus from RA 27/3, which was taken from an aborted fetus, was then inserted in WI-38, which was taken from the lung of a little girl aborted three months from conception.


Yes, if you do not vaccinate for Rubella, there is risk. But the vaccine remains immoral. I am fully aware that the vaccine does not contain cells produced from abortions. I have made it clear that I know they are from cell lines cultured from a few specific aborted fetuses. But taking advantage of those murders is no less immoral.

As far as the medical advice goes, I agree, it's silly. I'm vaccinated for just about everything I can be and, except for rubella, I wouldn't have it any other way. But medical ethics are a legitimate topic for any religious forum, and there is somthing to be discussed here. The moment a society believes that it can exchange one life for another, take advantage of a muder, or sacrifice the few involuntarily for the sake of the greater good, we begin to act like God.

It is our duty to protect the most defenseless in society. Instead we experimented on them to improve our own lives, and we have fallen to the state where we think that kind of behavior is permissable. If this is not an abomination before the Lord, what is?
I'll have to look again for the website that I found discussing it, but when I was looking it up I found a site by the manufacturer that said they denied it was made from fetal tissue.

[TexasSky]

I'm sorry, but from my perspective, you are basically saying that because you believe that someone in the 1960's, used ONE aborted fetus to create a vaccine that saved MILLIONS of lives, it is better to run the risk of allowing thousands of children to die than to vaccinate them.

Doesn't that make you as bad as the illegal abortionist? You are dooming far more children to horrible deaths than the abortionist was. I hate abortion, but I hate watching children suffer and die from preventable disease as well.

(Note, Roe vs Wade was 10 years after the invention of the vaccine you say came from an aborted fetus. Ergo, the abortion was an illegal one.)

Also, I want VALID PROOF that these scientists have said, "I performed that abortion just so I could do medical research on it."

[Abbadon]

The situation thus far seems that with a few, not all, not many, but a few select vaccines were developed using aborted fetuses that (barring any evidence to the contrary) were from mothers that probably would have gotten abortions anyway, but that these two dozen deaths (that would have occured either way) have prevented countless others. So, this is supposed to be about helping children, isn't it? I don't have kids, but I'd be perfectly willing to kill anyone for my child's safety, I know my parents would too, and I know many other parents that would as well. Now, this isn't about us killing anyone, but using technology based off of tissue from those already dead. I don't see any reasonable objections.

Smallpox is GONE. The last case was in the 70s. Do you know why it's gone? It's because the world health orgnaization launched massive vaccine campains. Because of vaccines, niether you or your children have to worry about dying from that horrible disease. I think we should thank God that He gave us the knowledge to prevent those deaths!

Indeed. Those saying we should abandon vaccines apparently want more children to die. The abortions happen whether or not people get vaccines, and people are getting completely irrational for the sake of romanticism.

Principle, a rejection of Pragmatism, and respect for the image of God in man.

The cell lines do not belong to us. They belong to the murdered childred, whose blood is calling out for justice.

Check the back of your driver's license. Does it say "Organ donor?" If so, think about that.

And, I will say again, the cell line RA 27/3 which is an ingredient in every rubella vaccine was developed by scientists who aborted 27 fetuses explicitly for the sake of medical experimentation.

Did they get themselves or someone else pregnant just to get an abortion, or did they get the material from someone that was already going to get an abortion?

And that doesn't prove that the current vaccines use current abortions.

Also, I want VALID PROOF that these scientists have said, "I performed that abortion just so I could do medical research on it."

Second. It seems far more likely that they were thinking more along the lines of real-world organ donation than

Monty Python's version of organ donation. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tmLvzubP3I)

[Epiphoskei]

And that doesn't prove that the current vaccines use current abortions.

No, they don't. Three times now I have said they don't. One abortion in the 1960's is enough to render the entire vaccine unethical.
This is called Sanctity of Life. Sanctity of Life means you do not kill the innocent. You do not kill the innocent ever. You do not kill the innocent on so much as one occasion. You do not kill the innocent, ever. You do not kill the innocent for any reason. You do not profit from the murder of the innocent. You do not take advantage of injustice. You shun it and have nothing to do with it, ever.

What has been injected into us has been given the unremovable taint of the sin of Abortion. There is no excuse, no condition, no reason, nothing which permits taking advantage of the murder of an innocent.

Some protest, "but now that the deed is done, it is done. The only question remaining now is, will we put what remains to good use?" If abortion were actually viewed as the atrocity it is, this would not be a question. Consider the Holocaust of the Jews. If a piece of art has the provenance of being stolen from a Jew in the 1930s and 1940s, the world shuns it. It doesn't matter if the person who owns it obtained it himself by legal means or did anything wrong himself. If anyone obtained it at any time, the provenance is unacceptable and the art world wants nothing to do with it. People have argued "The Holocaust happened. It's done. the only question is, what shall we do with this art now?" but most of the time it sickens us, because we all know that there must be justice.

The blood of the little girl who provided WI-38 and the 27 fetuses killed to isolate RA-27/3 still requires justice, and I don't see any as long as we continue to benefit from their murders.

[Abbadon]

This is called Sanctity of Life.

What about the sanctity of all those that would have died without the vaccine?

You do not profit from the murder of the innocent. You do not take advantage of injustice. You shun it and have nothing to do with it, ever.

Profiting from the murder of the innocent and taking advantage of injustice is the basis for Christianity. There is no reason why one should not seek to use one tragedy to prevent millions more.

If a piece of art has the provenance of being stolen from a Jew in the 1930s and 1940s, the world shuns it. It doesn't matter if the person who owns it obtained it himself by legal means or did anything wrong himself. If anyone obtained it at any time, the provenance is unacceptable and the art world wants nothing to do with it. People have argued "The Holocaust happened. It's done. the only question is, what shall we do with this art now?" but most of the time it sickens us, because we all know that there must be justice.

But that art doesn't save lives. There is a major difference. Sanctity of life and all.

The blood of the little girl who provided WI-38 and the 27 fetuses killed to isolate RA-27/3 still requires justice, and I don't see any as long as we continue to benefit from their murders.

Fine, arrest the mother and the doctor that performed the abortion, but the vaccine saves lives. I am an organ donor, and if I was murdered, it would be ludicrous to declare it unethical to save the lives of people in need of my organs. Justice would not be served by denying them the chance to live.

[Epiphoskei]

If you were not an organ doner, it would be terribly unethical to take your organs! The murdered humans did not consent. And the willing sacrifice of Christ does not permit taking advantage of others. Shall we sin that grace might increase?

You cannot justify use of any immorally obtained object simply because of the good that can come: the ends do not justify the means. You cannot turn the sanctity of one life against the sanctity of another life. God never calls us to choose the lesser of two evils.

Incidentally, none of these vaccines require those cell lines. They use them because it's cheaper. There are ethical alternatives produced in other countries.

[BigNorsk]

No, they don't. Three times now I have said they don't. One abortion in the 1960's is enough to render the entire vaccine unethical.
This is called Sanctity of Life. Sanctity of Life means you do not kill the innocent. You do not kill the innocent ever. You do not kill the innocent on so much as one occasion. You do not kill the innocent, ever. You do not kill the innocent for any reason. You do not profit from the murder of the innocent. You do not take advantage of injustice. You shun it and have nothing to do with it, ever.

What has been injected into us has been given the unremovable taint of the sin of Abortion. There is no excuse, no condition, no reason, nothing which permits taking advantage of the murder of an innocent.

Some protest, "but now that the deed is done, it is done. The only question remaining now is, will we put what remains to good use?" If abortion were actually viewed as the atrocity it is, this would not be a question. Consider the Holocaust of the Jews. If a piece of art has the provenance of being stolen from a Jew in the 1930s and 1940s, the world shuns it. It doesn't matter if the person who owns it obtained it himself by legal means or did anything wrong himself. If anyone obtained it at any time, the provenance is unacceptable and the art world wants nothing to do with it. People have argued "The Holocaust happened. It's done. the only question is, what shall we do with this art now?" but most of the time it sickens us, because we all know that there must be justice.

The blood of the little girl who provided WI-38 and the 27 fetuses killed to isolate RA-27/3 still requires justice, and I don't see any as long as we continue to benefit from their murders.

Actually, as Christians we all benefit from the death of an innocent, Jesus. It certainly is a terrible thing to execute an innocent man, yet it saved mankind. If you got to make the choice would you forbid the execution of Jesus? Would you refuse to benefit from it? Would you tell your children the moral thing to do is not to have faith in Jesus? That they should shun and have nothing to do with his death?

Marv

[Epiphoskei]

I just adressed that in the previous post.

Jesus was a voluntary sacrifice and is catagorically different. The one time, specific intentional voluntary sacrifice for the propitiation of sins cannot be likened in the slightest to doing research on murdered humans.

If someone has not consented, you cannot ethically take his or her tissue, under any circumstances, no matter how dire.

[BigNorsk]

I didn't realize the abortions were done without consent.

Marv

[Koontzy]

since I dont know how to seperate quotes and such...:) I will reply in Red.....




(I'll be back with part two of this post later, I gotta go).


Folks, I have a question. If someone gets and abortion regardless of whether or not people get flu shots, then what's the point for not using the aborted embryo for beneficial purposes? I doubt very very much that there's anyone out there getting abortions just to have the tissue used for vaccines, that issue is more than likely something that the doctor deals with afterward.

I disagree with abortion period.... So Does GOD



Uhhh.... Anything in large enough doses is poisonous, and most stuff that is normally poisonous can provide particular benefits in small enough doses.
I agree, but some of the content in these vaccines is enough to harm you.....

Red meat causes cancer, are you going to give up red meat? Well, there's still fish, but then again, fish often contain mercury... Gee, could it be that pretty much anything causes cancer, and that aside from stuff like smoking, it's mostly a matter of family history that determines whether or not someone gets cancer?

I actually dont eat red meat. I rem reading about it supposadly causing cancer,

You drink orange juice, right? Guess what, if you injected orange juice into your viens, it'd kill you. Injecting stuff and drinking stuff are two completely different things.

Not really a big orange juice person really:)

Hate to break it to you, but all mammals have diploid cells, and they aren't necessarily reproduction-related. Diploid simply means that the DNA is a combination of half the DNA of the subject's mother and half the DNA of the subjects father. None of the official sources you site actually say anything about gathering diploid cells from abortion, and even then, stillborn babies, placenta, and umbilical cords would provide a more ready source than aborted fetuses. It isn't necessary to abort an embryo to get stuff from it, either, amniocentesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amniocentesis) relies on this.

I agree, but the vac are created with ones from aborted fetal cell tissue , sorry but its a fact

Oh, right, we're to take medical advice from those that have no medical training. *Pulls out leeches.*

I did not say to take it from me........ I know some doctors are great but some are liers..... My cousin was told he had asthma as a teenager.... but he doesnt now.... doctors get sued all the time for misdiagnosing... and theres 3 of them near me who are being sued for lieing to parents about certain things(they wont release the info)

Dude, you do realize that this alone absolutely destroys your credability, right?
again I say... I never said not to trust your doctor or believe everything you read;)
I hear the exact same thing from folks that believe the moon landing was faked, folks that believe the Jews were responsible for 9-11, and folks that think satan-worshipping aliens control the government. The internet is NOT a reliable source, especially for stuff that is "shocking" that "they" don't want you to know about, especially if it doesn't make it on the news. This would shock the nation, and shocking the nation sells, so news organizations would pick it up to sell it.
see I believe the internet has the best info, if found right.. I dont always believe what the left wing liberal media says... BTW do you know who owns most of the media and newspapers? look it up... He hates God with a passion(thats a hint)


The only stuff regarding human tissue I'm seeing is Albumin, which is a replenishable resource. Last time I donated blood, I lost some albumin which grew back along with the blood I lost.

Look at little harder, and do more research. rem we have the freedom of information act, the files can be had by anyone
So you don't eat pork, then?

Havent for a long time.....

So no rare steaks, then?
yuk, no way would I eat a rare steak.
Deuteronomy 14:21 goes on to say that "You may give it to the alien who is in your town, so that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner," in other words, Gentiles (non-Jews) are exempt. Deut 14:21 is also innapplicable because it refers to animals that die natural deaths from disease or old age.



The creatures do not "dieth of itself" to dieth of itself means it died a natural death from old age or disease.
Yes I know that:)
Also, are your aware that the kosher food laws do not apply to gentiles or anyone under the new covenent?
Unless we want it to:) we can still follow some thing from the OT, but we are not required to
1 Timothy 4:1-5 states "...in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; ... commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

Colossians 2:16 says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."



But we don't eat or drink the vaccines, and it isn't the blood of the diseased animal that is injected, it's the weakened disease.



This is why I would get a vaccine if I had a weaker immune system, and why (if I had children) I would get my children vaccines, to avoid sickness.



How dare you vainly compare yourself to the martyrs fed to lions in Rome, those shoved in gas chambers and furnaces in Nazi Germany, those taken behind sheds and shot and forgotten in Communist Russia, those locked away in China, and those persecuted in Sudan. We have it really damn good in this country (occupied by a more than 60% majority of church going Christians). You make me ashamed to be a Baptist.

funny how you mention Hitler..... He burned his own building to wage war, yet people dont ever think our goverment would do that... Our country was founded by God and for God, but has went astray... Revelation say in the end all will wage war against Isreal, so that include america... and Yes I believe with all the new stuff our govement is doing.... Real ID, Gun Control, Patriot Act, Nafta Highway, making USA,canada, and Mexico one.... will happen eventually.... its all there to look up, but people would rather wait to see if it airs on their media controlled areas like CNN... makes me sick..

60% majority! Ha.... most procalin to be christian but deny God by their lifestyl... Listen to "Hells Best Kept Secret" by Ray Comfort when ya get a chance... most proclaiming christians in america arent truely saved....andI know we have it better... I have been to a few of those places you mentioned... and I served in the Military...

But when it's your interpretation of God's law and your misinterpretation of medicine against the laws of man, we're free to pick what we want.

did you read this whole post before replying? I never said you didnt have to? I was wondering if anyone else believed lik me and soe others do... I know its everyone choice, I have best friends who get their kids vaccinated, I support them and they support my decision.



This is inapplicable, the government isn't requiring abortions and executions of all male children.
I hope Huckabee gets elected since he said he will stop abortion...(supposadly)


Most do, or they require replenishable human tissue, or other stuff. The only vaccine in all the stuff he listed that actually uses anything remotely relating to embryos are a few mumps and measles vaccines, and I've yet to see anything that requires that the embryos be aborted.



But you live in an unnatural house to protect you from weather. I'm sure you have an unnatural refrigorator to keep your food from naturally rotting.

I believe it was Ray Harryhousen's Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger where there was a line "Trust in God, but tie up your camel."



Because that was the time people started realizing that the kid had a serious problem and wasn't just "stupid."

[Koontzy]

I didn't realize the abortions were done without consent.

Marv

your joking right???

[Koontzy]

What about the sanctity of all those that would have died without the vaccine?

.


what about the people who died because of the vaccines? why dont people look into that? People have died from them also you know..... they are also saying that one or two of them is what is really causing shaken baby syndrome and SIDS......

look that up....

[Epiphoskei]

I didn't realize the abortions were done without consent.

Marv

I mean the fetus' consent. I'm sure they had the mothers'. But that's not sufficient. The mother doesn't own the fetus' tissue. It's not her body.

[Abbadon]

God never calls us to choose the lesser of two evils.

Oh, right, I forgot, Christianity is about establishing a higher body count. Wait a minute, no it isn't.

In the garden of Gethsemene, Jesus had to work out the will to accept crucifixion. He didn't leap onto the cross from the get-go, He still called out "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabbacthani" on the cross, He still had trouble with the idea that His Father should sacrifice Him for the sake of the many... else Judas's actions would have not been a betrayal.

Incidentally, none of these vaccines require those cell lines. They use them because it's cheaper. There are ethical alternatives produced in other countries.

And do you have proof they aren't using those alternatives here now?

I disagree with abortion period.... So Does GOD

Fine, then complain about the mothers that got the abortions, it's a seperate subject from scientists a half century ago saying "well, we could use this already aborted fetal tissue to save lives."

One would think that from the name "pro-life" itself, being pro-life would be about be about saving lives, not complaining about countless lives being saved because of the actions of a couple dozen mothers a half century ago.

I agree, but some of the content in these vaccines is enough to harm you.....

I've yet to see any evidence that that is true for a reasonable amount of the population. My grandmother can only have limited amounts of carbohydrates without ending up in the hospital, while most of my diet consists of carbohydrates. A few people can indeed be harmed by the vaccine. Most aren't, else they'd get rid of that particular vaccine or change it.

I actually dont eat red meat. I rem reading about it supposadly causing cancer,

In a small fraction of a percent of the population, it does. The benefits of a ready access to protein and iron outweighs the infintesimal risk.

You still eat fish, right? Fish has mercury in it.

Not really a big orange juice person really

But the point still remains that drinking something and injecting it are two different things.

I did not say to take it from me........ I know some doctors are great but some are liers..... My cousin was told he had asthma as a teenager.... but he doesnt now.... doctors get sued all the time for misdiagnosing... and theres 3 of them near me who are being sued for lieing to parents about certain things(they wont release the info)

By the same standard, we should avoid Christianity because there are some false prophets out there.

After a certain age and with certain issues, the doctors aren't supposed to release info to anyone without the express consent of the patient. Simply saying "I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to discuss this" is not lying.

see I believe the internet has the best info,

I'm sorry, but I don't really see a point in bothering with a discussion with you because you've said this. Anyone can put anything they want to on the internet, and just because it's on the internet does not mean that it's true. Someone could just as easily put a website up on the internet saying that you and I are both neo-pagan homosexual lovers, but that wouldn't make it true.

The internet is not a reliable source for information. End of story.

[Epiphoskei]

Oh, right, I forgot, Christianity is about establishing a higher body count. Wait a minute, no it isn't.

In the garden of Gethsemene, Jesus had to work out the will to accept crucifixion. He didn't leap onto the cross from the get-go, He still called out "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabbacthani" on the cross, He still had trouble with the idea that His Father should sacrifice Him for the sake of the many... else Judas's actions would have not been a betrayal.
If the final word on what we do is what saves the most lives, we have totally betrayed principle and decided the ends justify the means. That is not acceptable.

A voluntary sacrifice and the the murder of innocents and theft of their tissue will simply never be comparable. Christ gave. We took. There is a fundimental difference.



And do you have proof they aren't using those alternatives here now?

Yes. I gave it. I linked to Merck's page listing the ingredients. They are still using the WI-38 and RA-27/3 cell lines.

[Koontzy]

By the same standard, we should avoid Christianity because there are some false prophets out there.

After a certain age and with certain issues, the doctors aren't supposed to release info to anyone without the express consent of the patient. Simply saying "I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to discuss this" is not lying.






No but by the same standard we dont believe every pastor we hear because he sayd Jesus do we? of course not.. we search the scripture to find out if what the pastor is saying is true? so why not do it with doctors..

and on the lieing thing? you missed what I said.the doctor didnt say he isnt allowed to discuss it... the lawyer said that, he coudlnt discuss to me why the doctor was being sued beyond me alreayd knowing that the doctor was lying.... but what he was lying about the lawyer would not tell me...

I eat some fish....yes I kow it has mercury...
do you have fillings? if so you have mercury in your mouth also:)

I thought this thread was closed...I didnt ant it to be a debate like it turned out to be... I was asking if there was anyone else that has the religious exemption... its each persons decision, I was just wondering if I was the only one on the boards or notthat has the exemption...

God Bless

[Abbadon]

No but by the same standard we dont believe every pastor we hear because he sayd Jesus do we? of course not.. we search the scripture to find out if what the pastor is saying is true? so why not do it with doctors..

Because the Bible is already set and can be read by many, but medical training requires years of study of material that has to be reviewed and approved by most of the medical community. If most of the members of the medical community feel that something is beneficial, then it is more likely to be true than if only a few members feel it is beneficial. If the majority of the medical community felt that vaccines were not safe (which is what your original post was concerned with, it only mentioned getting out of them with a religious exemption), then vaccines wouldn't be mandatory.

and on the lieing thing? you missed what I said.the doctor didnt say he isnt allowed to discuss it... the lawyer said that, he coudlnt discuss to me why the doctor was being sued beyond me alreayd knowing that the doctor was lying.... but what he was lying about the lawyer would not tell me...

Lawyers and thier clients also have confidentiality like doctors and patients. Also, you said:

doctors get sued all the time for misdiagnosing... and theres 3 of them near me who are being sued for lieing to parents about certain things(they wont release the info)

You made no mention of lawyers. You just said "they," and the doctors seemed the most reasonable option out of the conversation since that was what that part of the post was mostly about. I missed that it was about the lawyers because you the closest you came to mentioning them was the mention of lawsuits (and not as the main subject since you had been talking about misdiagnosing previous to that).

As for misdiagnosing, that's still not necessarily lying, mistakes are not the same as lying.

[Koontzy]

Because the Bible is already set and can be read by many, but medical training requires years of study of material that has to be reviewed and approved by most of the medical community. If most of the members of the medical community feel that something is beneficial, then it is more likely to be true than if only a few members feel it is beneficial. If the majority of the medical community felt that vaccines were not safe (which is what your original post was concerned with, it only mentioned getting out of them with a religious exemption), then vaccines wouldn't be mandatory.



Lawyers and thier clients also have confidentiality like doctors and patients. Also, you said:



You made no mention of lawyers. You just said "they," and the doctors seemed the most reasonable option out of the conversation since that was what that part of the post was mostly about. I missed that it was about the lawyers because you the closest you came to mentioning them was the mention of lawsuits (and not as the main subject since you had been talking about misdiagnosing previous to that).

As for misdiagnosing, that's still not necessarily lying, mistakes are not the same as lying.

But they can be... My cousin had a doctor lie to him about a procedure the doctor wanted to do... certain things went wrong, andmy cousin sued the doctor for it...... I didnt say all the time but ometimes it can be...You talked about the medical field requiring years of study... well some pastors have went to school just as long, and still dont preach the true gospel.. Look at the Catholic Priests, most have been around scriptures there whole life, and yet they arent in the correct doctrine... so its the same...

When my childs doctor flat out tells me to my face that vaccines dont have certain things in it, then I tell him to check the laebling on the package, which he still wouldnt believe me, after 20 mins of him lying to me, he finally gets mad enough to get me a ingrediants list from his stuff, and guess what! I was right and he wasnt.. he has 10 years in college..

[Sam48]

Yes vaccins contain virusses, but only to gain resistence. It's the same as gaining resistence after a cold, only now through a needle.

[TexasSky]

First let me say... this topic started as I was wondering if any other Baptists got exemption for religious reasons.... when I filled mine out they thought I was a Jehovah Witness, since I guess most that do the exemptions are......

My biblical basis for not getting immuzied are

The Bible teaches that there are clean and unclean animals and that God's people are not to put the unclean into their bodies (Deuteronomy 14) Furthermore, the Bible teaches that Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself;..(Deuteronomy 14:21) and hut flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (Genesis 9:4)Vaccines are often made of, or in bodies, fetuses or eggs of said unclean creatures. The process of creating the vaccine often causes said creatures to die in the process (i.e., dieth of itself). Many vaccines are made in or of the blood of diseased animals. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (I Corinthians 6:19,20)The Bible teaches children are a gift from God to the parents (Psalm 127:3) and further teaches the parents (not the state) are entrusted with the care and welfare of the child (I Timothy 5:8). The Bible also teaches there have been times in history when evil government and government employees have attempted through force, intimidation color of law to harm and destroy the children of God's people (Exodus I and 2 and Matthew 2)The Bible teaches that when man's law contradicts God's Law, His people must obey God over men. But Peter and the apostles answered and said, '"We must obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29) There is much Bible Case Law in support of this position such as Daniel Vs Darius (Daniel 6) and Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego vs Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3:13). Concerning the safety of children, both the Hebrew midwives (Exodus 1) and the parents of Moses (Exodus 2) refused to obey the law of man that put the children in peril. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict. (Hebrew 11:23)


I have more, but decided not to list them:) this is from a paper my church printed out for the people who wanted ot get the exemption(my wife helped type it) so its our beliefs also:) well my wife typed most of it...

Actually, you need to get into the New Testament.

Read your bible and you will see that God told Peter not to call anything God created "unclean."

Remember the sheet? Peter refused to eat "unclean"? God corrected Peter and told Peter that Peter was wrong.

[TexasSky]

No, they don't. Three times now I have said they don't. One abortion in the 1960's is enough to render the entire vaccine unethical.
This is called Sanctity of Life. Sanctity of Life means you do not kill the innocent. You do not kill the innocent ever. You do not kill the innocent on so much as one occasion. You do not kill the innocent, ever. You do not kill the innocent for any reason. You do not profit from the murder of the innocent. You do not take advantage of injustice. You shun it and have nothing to do with it, ever.

What has been injected into us has been given the unremovable taint of the sin of Abortion. There is no excuse, no condition, no reason, nothing which permits taking advantage of the murder of an innocent.

Some protest, "but now that the deed is done, it is done. The only question remaining now is, will we put what remains to good use?" If abortion were actually viewed as the atrocity it is, this would not be a question. Consider the Holocaust of the Jews. If a piece of art has the provenance of being stolen from a Jew in the 1930s and 1940s, the world shuns it. It doesn't matter if the person who owns it obtained it himself by legal means or did anything wrong himself. If anyone obtained it at any time, the provenance is unacceptable and the art world wants nothing to do with it. People have argued "The Holocaust happened. It's done. the only question is, what shall we do with this art now?" but most of the time it sickens us, because we all know that there must be justice.

The blood of the little girl who provided WI-38 and the 27 fetuses killed to isolate RA-27/3 still requires justice, and I don't see any as long as we continue to benefit from their murders.
This is called Sanctity of Life. Sanctity of Life means you do not kill the innocent. You do not kill the innocent ever. You do not kill the innocent on so much as one occasion. You do not kill the innocent, ever.

But you are proposing killing millions of innocents by denying them preventative medication because of POSSIBLY - ONE case 40 years ago.

[joyfulgirl]

Yes vaccins contain virusses, but only to gain resistence. It's the same as gaining resistence after a cold, only now through a needle.
this is not true. naturally acquiring a disease involves the virus entering through mucus membranes, etc. having a virus directly injected into your body is not the same thing at all.

someone else argued that vaccines do not contain aborted fetal tissue. you need to do some research! go here: vran.org and here: cogforlife.org, and you will see that you are mistaken.


i'm sure it's evident that we do not vaccinate our children. we believe that God designed out bodies with the ability to fight off illness and disease. there are alternative methods should my children come down with one of these viruses. my fully-vaccinated nephew came down with pertussis last year, and i doubt the efficacy of many of the vaccines today. i think that vaccines are polluting our children's bodies with toxins and animal parts.

[Epiphoskei]

But you are proposing killing millions of innocents by denying them preventative medication because of POSSIBLY - ONE case 40 years ago.

1) It's twenty eight certainly established cases of unethical behavior.
2) It's not millions.
3) There are ethical alternatives. The japaneese alternative, not avalable in america, does not use RA27/3.
4) The ends do not justify the means.

[Anemone]

To all those against vaccinations,

How would you feel if your child contracted polio when you could have prevented it by having them vaccinated?

[Andy Broadley]

Please beware f these sites and this (mis)information. Vaccines are not made of antifreeze or aborted tissues. That is ludicrous, and while antifreeze would kill the recipient of the shot, aborted fetus tissue serves no medical purpose, and would only increase the price of the vaccine, and is thus not true.

Most vaccines consist solely of saline (pH balanced water) and a heat inactivated version of the virus or bacteria that causes the illness. Some vaccines include only antibodies that engage the immune system rather than heat inactivated viruses and bacteria.

The information in the links above is very irresponsible.

If you want to kill your children, listen to the information in the post and links above. If you value your children's lives, ignore and vaccinate your children.

Polio, measles, rheumatic fever and other debilitating illnesses have been all-but eradicated by vaccines. Please don't let these resurface because of irresponsible information from crackpots and conspiracy theorists that say these are sinful or harmful.

Dave

What he said:thumbsup:

Repped:)

[Andy Broadley]

To what purpose does this thread serve?

If you have a problem with vaccines, fine, don't take them.

Would "conspiracy fit in here?



Cars, Walt Disney Pictures, George Carlin as Fillmore, Copyright 2006

Anybody remember when pennicillen was "the devils tool?"

God Bless

Till all are one.

What?:eek:

An American with a conspiracy theory?:swoon:

Don't say it's so....:D :D :D

[Andy Broadley]

I am afraid you have been misinformed about a lot of things, vaccines are not made from aborted fetal tissue.

They also save lives. I know. I've seen the world before and after.

When I was very litte, polio was very common. It was something everyone I knew feared. The vaccine came out when I was a child. I know people, a few years older, who are suffering from recurrences of polio that they suffered as children. I don't know anyone younger than I am that even knows what polio was really like (except of course health professionals or relatives of polio victims.)

Measles was a horrible thing. It terrified people. My children don't even know what it is.

Whopping cough almost killed my sister. My children don't know what it is.

My family has a lot of native americans. Some of the old timers talk about the small pox epidemics in the tribes. I never knew what it was like because I had a shot as a child.

Don't throw the world into the horror of diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps and rubella because of mis-information. Please don't.

Very well said, and I completely agree with you. :wave: :thumbsup: :amen: :groupray:

Me too:thumbsup:

Repped:)

[Andy Broadley]

Again, to what purpose does this thread serve?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Why is this in the Baptist forums? Request that this be moved to the medical section for a better discussion.

Hey, it gets people talking in here

That can't be a bad thing can it?

Our forums are not exactly the busiest in the street after all.

And the OP did vaguely ask for a Baptist perspective on this (either in the OP or a subsequnrt post), which gives it a valid reason for being here.:)

[Andy Broadley]

If you were not an organ doner, it would be terribly unethical to take your organs! The murdered humans did not consent. And the willing sacrifice of Christ does not permit taking advantage of others. Shall we sin that grace might increase?

You cannot justify use of any immorally obtained object simply because of the good that can come: the ends do not justify the means. You cannot turn the sanctity of one life against the sanctity of another life. God never calls us to choose the lesser of two evils.

Incidentally, none of these vaccines require those cell lines. They use them because it's cheaper. There are ethical alternatives produced in other countries.


Define Ethical. Or more to the point, WHO defines what is ethical?

In the USA and Britain you have to opt IN to the donor programme or organs cannot be used.

In other countries ( I believe Australia may be one), organs may be used unless the person has opted OUT of the the programme.

Medical ethics are not the issue here.

The religious agruement is valid (although I cannot agree with it), but the medical ethics card is invlaid.:)

[Andy Broadley]

OK. Been right through the thread now and have caught up

Anyone else noticed the pattern here?

Not seen any PARENTS opposed to having their children vaccinated.

The opposition seems to be from those either without children or who have at least not listed children in thei user thingy:)

Interesting.