An Open Letter to Orthodox Christians, by Clark Carlton

[Protoevangel]

An Open Letter to Orthodox Christians, on Behalf of Ron Paul
by Clark Carlton


Dear Brothers and Sisters:

The 2008 US presidential election is almost a year and a half away, and yet the various campaigns are in full swing. With states vying to move the primary season up into late 2007, it is time that we as citizens of the United States start to think about who we would like to see elected to the White House next year.

Before I express my own thoughts about the upcoming election, let me begin with a couple of obvious, but nonetheless vital, observations. First of all, reasonable people – and certainly the reason-endowed sheep of Christ’s flock – can disagree about political philosophies and the relative virtues and vices of particular candidates. I do not believe that there is one "Orthodox" answer to some of the questions that I will raise below. In other words, I will question neither the purity of your faith nor the sincerity of your commitment to Christ if you disagree with my thoughts.

Such circumspection is necessary because our Lord did not deliver to us any particular "political philosophy." When the Pharisees tried to trap Him with a question about money He replied simply, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s." Later, the Pharisees accused Him of trying to put Himself in the place of Caesar. When Pilot asked Him about this He replied, "My Kingdom is not of this world." St. Paul admonished Christians to obey those in civil authority – even though they were pagans – but later writers, living under intense persecution, were somewhat less enthusiastic about their allegiance to the Roman Empire.


Read the whole article HERE (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/carlton1.html)

[Khaleas]

Wonder if that was before or after he gained the support of a brothel owner....

Clark Carlton is a bit controversial in himself already and Ron Paul is just so off the radar they'd probably need an AWACS to find him...

[OnTheWay]

Whatever his virtues may be Ron Paul is about as important to the presidental election as the shoes I bought my wife for Christmas the other day.

[ClementofRome]

Whatever his virtues may be Ron Paul is about as important to the presidental election as the shoes I bought my wife for Christmas the other day.


I gotta tell you.....that made me laugh hard! It may be a sad truth, but it is a truth, nonetheless~

[Khaleas]

I gotta tell you.....that made me laugh hard! It may be a sad truth, but it is a truth, nonetheless~
I hear you, I was glad I wasn't drinking anything at the time because it would have been all over my keyboard...

[Khaleas]

Please, someone lead him back to the rock he crawled out from under... :)

[rusmeister]

I've listened to Carlton on AFR and read a little of his stuff. I find the man to be very intelligent, well-educated, and worthy of respect. Furthermore, I have to say that his open letter is quite persuasive. If the American political system truly allows us to have any impact at all on election processes, and if the people we elect truly have the ability to affect positive change, then he is right.

Unfortunately, I no longer believe those two conditions to be true.

Almost thou persuadest me!

[Prawnik]

Pregunta mas estupida, but why is Clark Carlton controversial, and with whom?

[choirfiend]

He's contreversial within the Orthodox because of his argumentative style, especially when writing (multiple) books whose audience is non-orthodox.

[Shubunkin]

I just like Ron Paul because he's against abortion. It's a one-issue election, in my view. Closed minded as that sounds. It's important to me, though.

[MariaRegina]

Yes, wearing the collar before writing a book might give a person more credibility, but not in this anti-clerical world.

Why do we judge?

Carlton's books were "preapproved" by Orthodox bishops of multiple jurisdictions before publication. Furthermore, his books are filled of wisdom, borne by his many years spent as a catechumen.

How many other lay members seek approval before publishing their books?

And how many catechumens are willing to be obedient and wait seven or ten years? He did, and that speaks volumes.

[Bushmaster78FS]

...and Ron Paul is just so off the radar they'd probably need an AWACS to find him...

Like this one?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/e-2c-tr-hawkeye.jpg

Or this one?

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/aircraft/e3/e3_sentry.jpg

[SeraphimSarov]

I've listened to Carlton on AFR and read a little of his stuff. I find the man to be very intelligent, well-educated, and worthy of respect. Furthermore, I have to say that his open letter is quite persuasive. If the American political system truly allows us to have any impact at all on election processes, and if the people we elect truly have the ability to affect positive change, then he is right.

Unfortunately, I no longer believe those two conditions to be true.

Almost thou persuadest me!
Man, hit the nail right on the head.

[Khaleas]

Like this one?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/e-2c-tr-hawkeye.jpg

Or this one?

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/aircraft/e3/e3_sentry.jpg
First one is much more proportional even though they have 8 bladed props nowadays... :P
Not that I'm partial or anything... plus there is like 6 times more guys in the AF one and they still call for help from our guys... ^_^

[Lotar]

I think Classical Liberalism is just as acidic to traditional society as Liberalism's modern Statist manifestations.

Even if his ideology was mainstream, a man with Paul's level rhetorical skill will never have a chance of winning.

[repentant]

Ron Paul wins yet another debate.

His polling percentage has doubled in New Hampshire.

I think people need to stop settling him so short, we have alot of time ahead of us, and he is only growing more popular by the minute. He has surpassed Thompson in 4th quarter campaign contributions, and is only a few thousand behind Guilliani and Romney (who donated alot of money to himself).

He is the only one that sticks to his guns, rather you agree with him or not. You can't say that about any other candidate on that stage with their flip-flopping.

People are so pro war, spread democracy with a rifle, that they fail to see the big picture...

[SaintPhotios]

This gives me even more optimism..... I've been wondering when Orthodox communities would catch onto Ron Paul.

[EricTheRed]

I really wish it was a time of peace. Then I'd be 100% behind Ron Paul

[repentant]

I really wish it was a time of peace. Then I'd be 100% behind Ron Paul

Well it's not like he is some coward who will let the world run all over us. He already said that if we were truly threatened, he would do what was necessary. He just doesn't agree with how we went about the Iraq war, nor does he think we should attack Iran because they may have one nuke in the future, which let's face it, will never even touch us even if they did...

People have been told this lie for too long, they have began to believe it. Also his stance against the war, differs from the liberal stance (which by the way also flip flopped) it just wants to see the same result...

[Lotar]

Ron Paul wins yet another debate.

According to internet polls...



His polling percentage has doubled in New Hampshire.


From 3% to 6%. Hardly impressive.


I think people need to stop settling him so short, we have alot of time ahead of us, and he is only growing more popular by the minute. He has surpassed Thompson in 4th quarter campaign contributions, and is only a few thousand behind Guilliani and Romney (who donated alot of money to himself).

Primaries start in just over a month. Not that much time.


He is the only one that sticks to his guns, rather you agree with him or not. You can't say that about any other candidate on that stage with their flip-flopping.


Yes, he is an ideologue.



People are so pro war, spread democracy with a rifle, that they fail to see the big picture...


I think it is rather unhonorable to invade a country on what turns out to be false pretenses, and then proceed to wipe our hands clean of the mess solely for an ideological principle. Just because we shouldn't have been there in the first place does not relieve us of the moral obligation of attempting to fix the mess we've created.

[repentant]

According to internet polls...

Well until the polls that matter happen, that is all we can go by..the CNN poll said Ron Paul won. He won every debate if I remember correctly. But I know you are probably one of the ones who think it is some computer conspiracy..



From 3% to 6%. Hardly impressive.
4 to 8 actually..in fourth place. Of course you must understand how these polls work, and who they poll to know exactly what they mean.

Primaries start in just over a month. Not that much time.

That's all he needs..


Yes, he is an ideologue.

So you prefer a man who said one thing before, and changed his mind? Or someone who has convictions in the first place? He voted no to the HR for the war, and he says no now. He has always been against abortion, and he is now. He has always been against illegal immigration, and he still is now. the rest are flip floppers..


I think it is rather unhonorable to invade a country on what turns out to be false pretenses, and then proceed to wipe our hands clean of the mess solely for an ideological principle. Just because we shouldn't have been there in the first place does not relieve us of the moral obligation of attempting to fix the mess we've created.

We freed them from a brutal dictator and helped them achieve some kind of rational leadership. Wasn't that the plan? So why are we still there? Leaving now will not be unhonorable, but honorable in letting a country sustain itself..

There is absolutely no rational explanation of why we should be there now...other than greed. There is more terrorist in Iraq now, than there was before we got there. They had nothing to do with 9/11 or any other attack on us. Why don't we fight the "war on terror" in our own country, by finding the terrorists here, not the ones in Iraq, and by securing our borders, not Iraqs?

[MariaRegina]

John, I hope you arrive safely home to be with your wife.

[Bushmaster78FS]

But I know you are probably one of the ones who think it is some computer conspiracy..

So, we are the only ones that believe in conspiracies? Oh boy... When are you going to reveal the heroin trafficking from Afghanistan to US, or wherever you think we are buying them from?

4 to 8 actually..in fourth place.

Whoop dee doo...

So you prefer a man who said one thing before, and changed his mind? Or someone who has convictions in the first place? He voted no to the HR for the war, and he says no now. He has always been against abortion, and he is now. He has always been against illegal immigration, and he still is now. the rest are flip floppers..

And that makes him a good leader, proven by what record?

We freed them from a brutal dictator and helped them achieve some kind of rational leadership. Wasn't that the plan? So why are we still there?

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Al-Queda has moved in, and that is why we are still there. Our actual war is with them.

Leaving now will not be unhonorable, but honorable in letting a country sustain itself..

That country can not sustain itself yet due to the way they just are, you keep complaining about Islam, but yet do not realize what it causes people to act like in groups, communities, even in this case countries, governments.

There is absolutely no rational explanation of why we should be there now...other than greed. There is more terrorist in Iraq now, than there was before we got there. They had nothing to do with 9/11 or any other attack on us. Why don't we fight the "war on terror" in our own country, by finding the terrorists here, not the ones in Iraq, and by securing our borders, not Iraqs?

Same old repetitive nonsense... What greed are we feeding right now from Iraq??? So it is ok to be a US hating terrorist if you had nothing to do with 9/11... We are fighting the war on terror in our own country more than you reliaze. Those just do not wear the same uniform.

[Bushmaster78FS]

John, I hope you arrive safely home to be with your wife.


Thank you Aria, I am leaving in 48 hours, God willing...

[Nichole]

Thank you Aria, I am leaving in 48 hours, God willing...
:doh: ...........You will be coming home!!! Mr. Bushmaster.........let's stay positive just once!!!!!!!! :D My prayers always........... :crosseo:

[Bushmaster78FS]

LOL, I didn't say I was going anywhere else... I am positive... ^_^

[repentant]

So, we are the only ones that believe in conspiracies? Oh boy... When are you going to reveal the heroin trafficking from Afghanistan to US, or wherever you think we are buying them from?

When I figure out where the whole heroine thing came up at, I'll get back to you..


And that makes him a good leader, proven by what record?

16 years of consistency in the US Congress...? Who are his competitors?...lets see..

Giuliani- A former mayor of NY, who happened to be the mayor when 9/11 happened. That is the only foot he has to stand on. If 9/11 never happened, or was in another city..he wouldn't be there. He's been married how many times?, and brought up Mit Romney past of hire a company who had illegals working for them..he shouldn't bring up the homelife..

Then we have Mitt..a one term governor of the most liberal state in the Union. He has no experience whatsoever on the national level..I think that's enough..

John McCain-another flip flopper. First he wants amnesty, then when he realized it was un popular, he changed his mind. A former war hero, and POW, to which he is due respect, but in no way means he can lead the country. He is not that bad honestly, and I like him..but I don't like flip floppers. Admit you felt one way before, and were wrong, that is fine. But say you never felt that way in the first place----next.

Huckabee..I could live with him, he just needs to go more to the right on immigration.

The rest have no more experience that Paul does..not gonna mention them all by name.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Al-Queda has moved in, and that is why we are still there. Our actual war is with them.

Was this before or after we invaded? Do you think the roadside bombings would happen if we were not there?


That country can not sustain itself yet due to the way they just are, you keep complaining about Islam, but yet do not realize what it causes people to act like in groups, communities, even in this case countries, governments.

If people want to be Islam, and live under Islamic rule, that is their problem. To change the way the live would be to change their philosophy on their religion, and I don't see that happening..would you change your views on Orthodoxy to make others happy?


Same old repetitive nonsense... What greed are we feeding right now from Iraq??? So it is ok to be a US hating terrorist if you had nothing to do with 9/11... We are fighting the war on terror in our own country more than you reliaze. Those just do not wear the same uniform.

Actually that is my point Bushmaster..we need to fight the terrorists here by securing our border, not Iraqs. Can you tell me how Bush comes to the conclusion that we need to protect our country from terrorists by having a war on Iraq, and yet wants to grant amnesty to 20 million illegals, many of whom are probably terrorists, and doesn't want to secure our borders? Does it seem like he really wants to protect this nation?

And the greed..?

Oil
Halliburton
war profiteering
etc, etc

[repentant]

Ron Paul wins Virginia GOP straw poll
By the Associated Press
December 1, 2007

ARLINGTON, Va. - Ron Paul won an informal straw poll of Virginia Republicans Saturday at the state party's annual weekend retreat.

The Texas congressman got 182 of the 479 ballots cast, or 38 percent. Former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson finished second with 112 votes, with former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee third with 51.

Dozens of noisy Paul followers packed the late afternoon speeches by proxies for the candidates in a suburban Washington, D.C., hotel and the voting afterward.

"They weren't here yesterday," said state GOP chairman John Hager. About 700 Republican activists registered for the Friday and Saturday event. "We had no indication until around 3 o'clock that this would happen."

Mitt Romney got 43 votes, Sen. John McCain got 23, California congressman Duncan Hunter got 19 and Colorado congressman Tom Tancredo finished with four votes.


November 30, 2007 7:38 pm EST

ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA – Republican presidential candidate and Texas congressman Ron Paul’s run for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination reached another milestone on Friday as it surpassed GOP opponent Rudy Giuliani’s third quarter fundraising total.

With over one month still remaining in the fourth quarter, Congressman Paul has currently raised $10,259,765. By comparison, Rudy Giuliani raised only $10,258,019 during the three-month period from July to September of this year.

“This milestone is the latest indication that Dr. Paul’s message of freedom, peace, and prosperity is resonating strongly with voters across the United States,” said Paul campaign spokesman Joe Seehusen. “New money means new support.”

Congressman Paul also recently placed first in the New York Young Republicans poll, in Giuliani’s home state.

The Paul campaign has publicly set a $12 million fourth quarter fundraising goal, to be raised by December 31.


November 30, 2007 2:16 pm EST

ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA – Republican presidential candidate and Texas congressman Ron Paul’s run for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination reached another milestone on Friday as it surpassed GOP opponent Mitt Romney’s third quarter fundraising total.

With over one month still remaining in the fourth quarter, Congressman Paul has currently raised $10,093,152. By comparison, Mitt Romney raised only $9,896,719 during the three-month period from July to September of this year.

November 29, 2007 5:32 pm EST

ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA – Republican presidential candidate and Texas congressman Ron Paul’s run for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination reached another milestone on Thursday as it surpassed former GOP frontrunner Fred Thompson’s third quarter fundraising total.

With over one month still remaining in the fourth quarter, Congressman Paul has currently raised $9,757,382. By comparison, Fred Thompson took in only $9,750,821 during the three-month period from July to September of this year.

[repentant]

Hey Busmaster, I don't think you have ever said..who do you support for President?

[Bushmaster78FS]

I am a servicemember and I won't discuss with you the opinions I have on the candidates, I will vote for whomever I think will be the best for America's future, even that might be Hillary. I won't vote for a guy whom I clearly see is a Carter in the works weakening the federal government and the military.

[rusmeister]

I just think we all need to learn more about humility and repentance. Insulting others is not part of our faith. If you have anything against your brother, you'd better leave your gifts at the altar and go make up with your brother first. Let's tend to the beams in our own eyes, everyone!!!

(Sorry - I can't find a smaller font...)

[repentant]

You say alot, but yet you can't say who you support as of now? Hmm..interesting...as a service member you don't seem to mind saying who DON't support..all you do is talk, nothing you say can be backed up. 70% of the people are against this war, and Ron Paul is the candidate supported the MOST by military personnel. Take it for what it is...obviously being an ex Muslim, you have some animosity against them....I don't see why you take anyones feelings against the war, as an attack against you, when it clearly isn't. I don't support the war, but I support the men who fight it. I don't see how not supporting the war, makes you un American. We aren't not robots or drones that have to agree with every policy our leaders make. And to show our disagreement makes us bigger PATRIOTIC AMERICANS than those who fall in line with everything the leaders say, like we are in a communist country and have to do whatever Stalin tells us..you must put faith before country ALL THE TIME. And it is un Christian and un Orthodox to invade countries, and try to spread our beliefs on them, as well as preemptive wars..that was something I didn't realize when I was a jacka$$.

And I am so glad you have cast judgement upon SaintPhotios and I, and shown hate toward us, based on our support of a person for President. I guess that shows what kind of man you are..

[EricTheRed]

This thread has been very enlightening. I now have no desire to vote for Ron Paul in the primaries.

[repentant]

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,142665,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

http://ronpauldelaware.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/military-favors-ron-paul-over-mccain/

Facts are facts my friend...

[gzt]

I was reading intently until I realized this wasn't about RuPaul.

[repentant]

This thread has been very enlightening. I now have no desire to vote for Ron Paul in the primaries.

Yea well don't believe the lies, believe the facts..

But why do you come to your conclusion? Please tell us..

[EricTheRed]

Ron Paul may have great domestic policies but his followers are fanatics with no regard for the well being of anyone who disagrees with them.

[repentant]

A) I am a Greek national.

B) I think the fact that more people that put one of the Armed Forces as their JOB, says that he is reaching to to the ACTIVE MILITARY, and they are reaching back.

C)My screen name has nothing to do with this, and don't try to act like I have been demeaning to you or any troops who are serving in this war. I have nothing to repent from in this thread. My beliefs are my beliefs. just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean I have to repent of them, or I am being a hypocrite because of my name.

D) Show me where I have attacked troops, and disgraced them. Show me the lies I posted. I made statements and I backed them up. You choose to ignore it because you think you speak on behalf of the entire military. You forget that you are talking to a CPL that served in the 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment. I have done and seen things I can't even talk about. So don't act all high and mighty because you are in Iraq. Now I didn't want to tell anyone this, but you have left me no choice. You don't sepak for the military, active or retired. You are just a Marine that would run head frist into a wall if Bush said so.

E) Please give me a reference as to what you are talking about pertaining to Greece invading Asia Minor. I don't see the relivance of that in this anyway, as it does not pertain to my avatar.

F) Please tell me how supporting a man for president, means I put them before my Faith? Don't be stupid and just say things Bushmaster..

[repentant]

Ron Paul may have great domestic policies but his followers are fanatics with no regard for the well being of anyone who disagrees with them.

That is completely unfounded..

[Sacrum Silentium]

This thread is both depressing and disappointing.

[repentant]

This thread is both depressing and disappointing.

You are right, and I am done with it. I said what I need to say. People will assume I am wrong because they don't like me, and like Bushmaster and especially since he is Iraq. They will fail to see that he is the one that has been the mean one here, and in TAW. He is under stress fighting an unjust war, so it is understandable. But I am done with all of you in TAW. This forum has made me cold, and I don't like myself in this forum. No one likes me anyway, and the overwelming majority of you are ecumenist, non traditionalists. I have tried for three years now to try and help people from not falling into the new age ecumenist Orthodox movement, but I can't do anymore at the detriment of my own soul.

Have a great time serving Bushmaster, and I hope you make it home alive. I understand you feel obligation to your cause, but it doesn't make it right, nor do you speak for the military, they speak for themselves, and they have spoken. They want out of Iraq, and they support Ron Paul. Take it easy...

[EricTheRed]

Yall have both been mean. But you are right..he does have more of an excuse to be ill-tempered. You don't.

[Protoevangel]

Sorry I haven't been around to see how this thread has disintegrated.

Mods, please delete the whole thread. Don't just close it, please. Delete it.

[Shubunkin]

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s308/Char224/smiley_deadhorse.gif

[Akathist]

This thread has been closed first for staff review. Also by OP request.

It has been cleaned up now and the OP may request that it be opened again.

[Akathist]

The OP has requested the thread be reopened.

Please stick to the topic and do not make negative personal remarks about one another.