Praying with non-Eastern Orthodox/inter-religious services

[SaintPhotios]

I hesitated to bring this up -- my intention is not to start fights or drive possible converts away by implying bigotry. But there has been some varying thoughts in a few threads in TAW about praying with non-Orthodox Christians and participating in their religious services. I understand our circumstances are different, and that economia does have its place in dealing with some of these issues, but I thought it was important to let everyone new to the faith understand what the actual position of Church is on this position.

First of all, Orthodox Christians are forbidden from praying with heretics and participating in their religious services. This is a good article for that issue.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayheretics.aspx

And for those who might be invited to eat supper with a non-Orthodox person/family, this article is also very helpful. Sit or stand respectfully while they pray, without praying with them, and after they finish, feel free to cross yourself and say your own Orthodox prayer silently to yourself.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/praynonorth.aspx

Refusing to pray with non-Orthodox or participate in their services is not bigotry. Prayer is communication with God. And joining with non-Orthodox in such an activity is assuming a common bond that you simply do not share. And while Protestantism as a whole has never been declared officially in many Orthodox circles as a heretical sect, believers of the filioque have -- which Protestantism does adhere to. These canons and teachings of the Church were not established to discriminate, but to protect the Truth, and safeguard the Church from false teachings. This does not mean we have to be disrespectful, but it is important that new Orthodox Christians aren't confused about this very important teaching.

[buzuxi02]

The responses given in those links are somwhat similar to my response in the other thread about Non-orthodox in post # 99.

[Knowledge3]

I'll try not to confuse you with St. Photios.

[choirfiend]

Thanks for cluing those who are "new to the faith" in to what the Church believes.

PS. I think you should probably include yourself among those you consider "new to the faith." For at least another 2-5 years. Then, maybe with the blessing of your priest, you could start informing others of what the Church teaches with proper context and application. It's called growing in the faith before teaching, just like is recommended when it says a man should be a Christian for 3 years before being considered for the ordained teaching ministry, and it's other name is discernment.

[SaintPhotios]

Thanks for cluing those who are "new to the faith" in to what the Church believes.

PS. I think you should probably include yourself among those you consider "new to the faith." For at least another 2-5 years. Then, maybe with the blessing of your priest, you could start informing others of what the Church teaches with proper context and application. It's called growing in the faith before teaching, just like is recommended when it says a man should be a Christian for 3 years before being considered for the ordained teaching ministry, and it's other name is discernment.
I'm not making this post as part of my ministry. And I realize that I, as many others here, am new to the faith. As you can see in my original post, I did not formulate my own theological treatise -- I linked articles written by those that are not new in the faith, and have great experience in their ministry.

That being said, I'm sensing an unhealthy attitude in some threads which is hesitant to speak out against false teachings espoused in TAW, but immediately lashes out at anyone correcting these false teachings. Could it be the priority is given to saving face rather than preserving Truth? I said what I thought needed to be said in the most respectful way I knew how. The clergy is supposed to teach us the faith, and guide us in the application of the faith, but there is nothing in Orthodox teaching that claims laymen are forbidden from defending the faith.

So, you're free to think what you like about my faith, but the thread isn't about my faith -- it's about praying with heretics. So it'd be much more productive, if you disagree with what I or the articles have said, to respond to those things rather than bringing up fallacious ad hominem attacks having nothing to do with the original topic.

[gzt]

Good grief, I recommend you reconsider what choirfiend said simply based on the attitude in your response, not having read your original post.

[Lukaris]

One thing to be careful when citing canon law is to avoid the same trap that certain Protestant fundamentalists have when hurling scripture. I remember asking my priest about strongly worded statements like the Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs of 1848 regarding other Christians. If I recall correctly he said curcumstances (in this case aggressive RCC schismatics) mandate absolute polemic but do not extend to non schismatic, non Orthodox Christians (especially most RCs). I had been in another forum where some individuals had the temerity to cite the 1848 encyclical as to declare Rcs, OOs, & Prots as non Christians (bad thread but not a bad overall forum). Of course, common sense dictates avoid communion & the filioque for instance. Yet there are well meaning cradle Orthodox (not ecumenists per se, just not grounded) who think communion with other Christians is not a problem. Just some parameters I have encounterd and I have been assailed as a rigid "traditionalist" as well a still "Protestantized convert" by "traditionalists". It can be a real can of worms. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" (& unworthy servant). The encycilcal of 1848 can be linked on http://orthodoxwiki.org BTW, no criticism intended just a perspective.

[Nickolai]

I completely agree with the OP, and know many Clergymen who would as well.

[Sacrum Silentium]

Seconded. And I agree with the way Photios posted. He wasn't really teaching anything, he was just agreeing with the writers of the links provided.

I had to do this on Thanksgiving, and honestly? I was glad I did. Whether or not their prayers were displeasing to God, I couldn't tell you, but they were displeasing to me for sure. Everyone joined hands and prayed aloud their own little way, and I guess I'm just used to congregational united prayer.

[Akathist]

I think everyone should not listen to what is said on a message board and consider it an accurate discription of the Orthodox Faith. This message board or any other one.

Next, if your Priest has said that you can attend services with your nonEO family and to pray with them then DO SO IN PEACE.

Do not let someone here judge you or judge your Priest. Consider that we have in TAW people who are so legalistic that thier verson of the EO faith is not even close to mainstream.

In fact, I wouldn't want to be in thier version of the EO faith. I would leave it immediately.

That said, I am uncomfortable attending services in a nonEO church. I go to weddings and funerals of family members but I don't go to Sunday services. This has only caused stress with my mother on two occassions when she wanted me to go to a UMC service with her and I found a polite excuse.

But some converts are not as fortunate as I am and it is not possible to politely avoid such situations. This is why we do not have message board members dictating the faith... we have Spiritual Father's who direct us.

What I do when I am in a situation where I would be praying with nonEO's is silently recite EO prayers while everyone else is praying.

[SaintPhotios]

I think everyone should not listen to what is said on a message board and consider it an accurate discription of the Orthodox Faith. This message board or any other one.


I totally agree... which is why I did not post an article I wrote -- I linked to articles written by clergy, so you can rest assured on this one.


Next, if your Priest has said that you can attend services with your nonEO family and to pray with them then DO SO IN PEACE.



If my priest told me I could disobey the canons and traditional teaching of the Church, I would promptly search for another Priest.


Do not let someone here judge you or judge your Priest.

No one was judging... just stating Church teaching.

Consider that we have in TAW people who are so legalistic that thier verson of the EO faith is not even close to mainstream.

As well as those so lax and ecumenical we might as well be content in our heterodoxy.


In fact, I wouldn't want to be in thier version of the EO faith. I would leave it immediately.



I linked to an article which presented Church teaching by trained clergy.... you are the one attempting to teach. You would leave the "version" of the EO faith (as if there were more than one) that forbade ecumenical lovefests with non-Orthodox? Perhaps the Romans should've been find with Pope John Paul II kissing the Koran? Where do we draw the line? I draw it with the canons and teachings of the Church.


I understand that message boards are no place to receive the faith... but you accuse us of judging that would do as the Church directs and worship only as Orthodox worship -- but then you in turn judge me of legalism, far off from the mainstream in Orthodoxy, and say you would leave such groups "immediately".... who is it that is dictating faith?

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

Would funerals and weddings be considered different from a normal service?

What if you are at a service and are called upon to pray?

[SeraphimSarov]

No one was judging... just stating Church teaching.

If you weren't judging, then what do you call this:

If my priest told me I could disobey the canons and traditional teaching of the Church, I would promptly search for another Priest.

Are you some kind of expert in canon law that you know more than your priest? Honestly now...

[jckstraw72]

kjellbjarne i dont think he said he's an expert. who among us would not have a problem with a priest saying its ok to disregard teachings and canons?!

i cant see whats wrong with the OP at all. wasnt in a proud or even a "teaching" tone, just some links really.

[Shubunkin]

I hesitated to bring this up -- my intention is not to start fights or drive possible converts away by implying bigotry. But there has been some varying thoughts in a few threads in TAW about praying with non-Orthodox Christians and participating in their religious services. I understand our circumstances are different, and that economia does have its place in dealing with some of these issues, but I thought it was important to let everyone new to the faith understand what the actual position of Church is on this position.

First of all, Orthodox Christians are forbidden from praying with heretics and participating in their religious services. This is a good article for that issue.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayheretics.aspx

And for those who might be invited to eat supper with a non-Orthodox person/family, this article is also very helpful. Sit or stand respectfully while they pray, without praying with them, and after they finish, feel free to cross yourself and say your own Orthodox prayer silently to yourself.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/praynonorth.aspx

Refusing to pray with non-Orthodox or participate in their services is not bigotry. Prayer is communication with God. And joining with non-Orthodox in such an activity is assuming a common bond that you simply do not share. And while Protestantism as a whole has never been declared officially in many Orthodox circles as a heretical sect, believers of the filioque have -- which Protestantism does adhere to. These canons and teachings of the Church were not established to discriminate, but to protect the Truth, and safeguard the Church from false teachings. This does not mean we have to be disrespectful, but it is important that new Orthodox Christians aren't confused about this very important teaching.
I have to admit that I'm not impressed with that site. It's rather harsh, in my opinion. :o

[SeraphimSarov]

kjellbjarne i dont think he said he's an expert. who among us would not have a problem with a priest saying its ok to disregard teachings and canons?!

Yeah, and what priest would ever say that?! The implication is there.

[Nickolai]

There seems to be a problem in this country with being told not to do something. As Americans, we want to do as we choose, not be obedient to the Church. The Church teaches that those outside of her are not to be prayed with, So we shouldn't

I'm gonna be called crazy for this, but it's because most protestants probably don't pray to the same God we do!

To any non-Orthodox lurkers here, I don't mean this to say that you are evil people going to hell. However, Orthodox and Protestants often don't believe the same things about God. So the God we worship is not the same.

Now, I believe we could agree that we should only pray to the One True God. So, if I were in a situation where I was supposed to pray to a God that's not mine, I would refuse. This is the reason why we don't pray with non-Orthodox.

There are some priests out there that don't think it's a big deal, that however, doesn't make them right.

[jckstraw72]

Yeah, and what priest would ever say that?! The implication is there.

ive heard some pretty weird stuff about some priests from some pretty trusted friends -- being a priest doesnt make you flawlessly Orthodox. mistakes can be made.

Nikolai has said before he knows of a priest who said he doesnt really believe the Theotokos entered into the Holy of Holies ...

but im not saying we should run around accusing clergy and looking for some little deviance.

[Nickolai]

Being in a seminary I run into priests all the time. So I've seen plenty that don't care about canons, fasting, prayer, you name it. Priests are people, and they make mistakes.

It's a big mistake to just believe what a Priest says just because he's a Priest. This applies to SFs as well. They can be wrong, they are not infallible. St. Paisius Velichkovsky was unable to ever find a suitable spiritual Father.

This however does not mean we should question everything Priests tell us. I know far more excellent, prayerful, reverent, and traditional Priests than I know crazy ones.

And this is for those new to the faith. You have zeal now, and that's good, but don't go around condemning any and everyone. People make mistakes, but that doesn't make them heretics. Trust me, I went through that phase, almost became an old calenderist even because of my zeal. It's not worth it.

[Shubunkin]

The problem is many of us have family and friends that are not Orthodox, and while I agree we have major differences - not praying with them (at least silently) would be a major turn-off right away to them toward Orthodoxy. True, I will not go out of my way to pray with non-Orthodox.

[jckstraw72]

The problem is many of us have family and friends that are not Orthodox, and while I agree we have major differences - not praying with them (at least silently) would be a major turn-off right away to them toward Orthodoxy. True, I will not go out of my way to pray with non-Orthodox.

when i am at home with my family i bow my head as they pray and i say my own prayer. theyre not offended, if they even realize.

[Orthosdoxa]

when i am at home with my family i bow my head as they pray and i say my own prayer. theyre not offended, if they even realize.

Exactly. I don't see why this is such a big deal. Don't seek out heterodox services, but if you are in a wedding or a funeral or a family dinner or whatever, just use common sense. It's not that hard.

[Sacrum Silentium]

If you're called to lead prayer, then pray as you should. Anyone who's offended doesn't really matter in the end, and you've not done your soul an injustice.

[Rowan]

I can see what people are saying, but I kind of feel like this all doesn't really apply to my real life. I guess I'm bad for "seeking out heterodox services" or something, but prayer comes with the territory in not only services (I went to a pre-Christmas thing on campus last night...at least the realize the real reason for the season) but in doing anything with pious Non-Orthodox Christians, like mission work and the like.

Personally, it would be exhausting to be THAT on-the-defensive about my interaction with Non-Orthodox Christians.

[Rowan]

I have to admit that I'm not impressed with that site. It's rather harsh, in my opinion. :o

That's another thing. Alot of Orthodox disagree with the perspectives presented on orthodoxinfo.

edited to add: When I gave my family websites to research Orthodoxy, for example, I told them this^^

[Orthosdoxa]

but in doing anything with pious Non-Orthodox Christians, like mission work and the like.

Like building houses and handing out food to the poor? Our parish takes a few turns a month being the ones to make and hand out food to the homeless, and the "umbrella" organization for this is Protestant in nature. I know Protestant prayers are said there, (though having two babies has precluded me from being able to help). I have no problem with this.

I of course would not go on a Protestant "mission" where they're trying to get people to say the sinner's prayer and then make them think they're done. (Esp. if the mission is to Russia. :doh: :doh: :doh: )

Like I said, I think it comes down to common sense. Stay away from things that contradict our Orthodox understanding when there's no good reason to be there. If you're forced into it, be gracious and a good example. And if something can be used for GOOD, like feeding the homeless, just use common sense and don't try to join in if people there try to tell them saying the sinner's prayer makes them "saved" or something. Orthodoxy will never grow if we run screaming from people who have wrong doctrines. And if you're not sure whether your common sense approach is working, ask your spiritual father if you should be doing more or less.

[Rowan]

Like building houses and handing out food to the poor? Our parish takes a few turns a month being the ones to make and hand out food to the homeless, and the "umbrella" organization for this is Protestant in nature. I know Protestant prayers are said there, (though having two babies has precluded me from being able to help). I have no problem with this.

Yeah, like Habitat for Humanity or something.

I of course would not go on a Protestant "mission" where they're trying to get people to say the sinner's prayer and then make them think they're done. (Esp. if the mission is to Russia. :doh: :doh: :doh: )Oh no. There are some "missionaries" that are very deceitful (like those who won't help people who refuse to convert...).

Like I said, I think it comes down to common sense. Stay away from things that contradict our Orthodox understanding when there's no good reason to be there. If you're forced into it, be gracious and a good example. And if something can be used for GOOD, like feeding the homeless, just use common sense and don't try to join in if people there try to tell them saying the sinner's prayer makes them "saved" or something. Orthodoxy will never grow if we run screaming from people who have wrong doctrines. And if you're not sure whether your common sense approach is working, ask your spiritual father if you should be doing more or less.Yeah, I've never run into things like that (yet), but I wouldn't have approved before becoming Orthodox, actually (alot of my beliefs about orthopraxis was akin to what Orthodoxy teaches before I knew Orthodoxy existed anyway).

[Akathist]

I linked to an article which presented Church teaching by trained clergy.... you are the one attempting to teach. You would leave the "version" of the EO faith (as if there were more than one) that forbade ecumenical lovefests with non-Orthodox? Perhaps the Romans should've been find with Pope John Paul II kissing the Koran? Where do we draw the line? I draw it with the canons and teachings of the Church.


I understand that message boards are no place to receive the faith... but you accuse us of judging that would do as the Church directs and worship only as Orthodox worship -- but then you in turn judge me of legalism, far off from the mainstream in Orthodoxy, and say you would leave such groups "immediately".... who is it that is dictating faith?

If you think I accused you personally of judgeing then you might want to self examine as I did not point out anyone particular.

The information you sited is not the Doctrine of the Church... it is opinions by clergy.

Yes, I don't want to be a part of a legalistic version of the EO church presented by some members of TAW.

The EO church is a place for healing and were we are given Spiritual Father's to direct us.

If someone's Spiritual Father told them that they could attend services or pray with their nonEO family members then the Church says they can. Period.

You and I have no right to tell someone to go against what their Priest has said.

I want you to give some thought to the many converts here. Many many members of TAW are the only person in their whole family who are EO. I doubt you understand the issues involved in trying not to offend people we love while following our faith.

It is a sin to hurt our loved ones unnecessarily.

Further, I know of many EO converts who live with their parents and/or get financial and other support from them as they are young adults. To offend their parents would not only be a sin against the parent it would lead to a whole mess of trouble.

Maybe it is easy for you to tell someone to create such a mess. But I don't think it is our place to do so. If their Priest feels it is best for them to offend if needed but not pray with or go to services, then I would say "do as your Priest says". But if they say: "Go to the service to make peace... but recite prayers to yourself while there... do not do this... do this... etc." Then I would say "do as your Priest says".

[Knowledge3]

Yes, I don't want to be a part of a legalistic version of the EO church presented by some members of TAW.


That's me.

TAW congregation is welcome to start a thread and ask questions.

. . .

[Andrew21091]

The information you sited is not the Doctrine of the Church... it is opinions by clergy.

If someone's Spiritual Father told them that they could attend services or pray with their nonEO family members then the Church says they can. Period.

The canons forbid to pray with the heretics so I'm with SaintPhotios on this. If you are having dinner with non Orthodox, do not participate in their prayers, as said already, pray your own prayer quietly. Also, if you are put into a situation to go to a non Orthodox service, do not join with their prayers because it is against the Church.

CANON LXV
If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated

[Akathist]

The canons forbid to pray with the heretics so I'm with SaintPhotios on this. If you are having dinner with non Orthodox, do not participate in their prayers, as said already, pray your own prayer quietly. Also, if you are put into a situation to go to a non Orthodox service, do not join with their prayers because it is against the Church.

CANON LXV
If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated

Andrew, you and I don't apply canon to one another. Priest and Bishops apply canon and we are to look to them for direction on such matters.

There are canons that are no longer applied at all. I am not saying this one is never applied, but there is room for people to have direction from thier Priests on such matters... and times when this canon is not applied.

I urge you to consider just what a canon is. It is not a law. It is a direction and it is meant for Priests and Bishops.

We have a Priest here in TAW and I notice that he does not cite canon's. Don't you find that interesting? I think it is because he knows that every Priest or Spiritual Father is responsible for those he serves and it is upon his shoulders that the application of canon rests, not even upon the shoulder's of other Priests, let alone laypeople like us.

[Orthosdoxa]

Eastcoast,

You have posted an article that suggests that we here need to cease being Orthodox and become Catholics. You are aware of the problems in this, are you not? Don't expect anyone to say, "Wow, why didn't I think of that?! I AM going to abandon the Church now!"

(And frankly, I really don't care if you don't like our definition of Church. After 2000 years, I'm not about to push for it to be changed now.)

You don't seem to have much positive to say to us, or just fellowship with us, or try to learn about us, but rather appear to be always telling us how we need to change, or complaining, or criticizing. Yet I'm quite sure that you are no expert on our beliefs and theology. Why don't you start from there?

If you want to debate this, please start a thread in the debate area, not here. Thank you.

[Andrew21091]

Andrew, you and I don't apply canon to one another. Priest and Bishops apply canon and we are to look to them for direction on such matters.

There are canons that are no longer applied at all. I am not saying this one is never applied, but there is room for people to have direction from thier Priests on such matters... and times when this canon is not applied.

I urge you to consider just what a canon is. It is not a law. It is a direction and it is meant for Priests and Bishops.

We have a Priest here in TAW and I notice that he does not cite canon's. Don't you find that interesting? I think it is because he knows that every Priest or Spiritual Father is responsible for those he serves and it is upon his shoulders that the application of canon rests, not even upon the shoulder's of other Priests, let alone laypeople like us.

I wasen't coming for an argument with fellow Orthodox. I was just showing my view on the issue. Forgive me.

[Orthosdoxa]

It was about reconcilition of the Body of Christ.The Body of Christ has never been divided - by definition, it cannot be - therefore it does not need to be mended. What we need is to bring more people into it. You are offended by this. We are offended by your temper tantrums and rudeness, which might be described as "non-biblical and christlike, insecure , childlike antics." :idea:

The Catholic church and we ARE in schism. Ask at OBOB. This is a simple historical fact and the fact that you are offended by this shows a lack of understanding of basic concepts. Go on, ask at OBOB if we're in schism. It's not an insulting term, merely a factual term. On a practical level it simply means not in communion with each other, which we aren't. Should we lie and say that we are, so you can be happy? :scratch:

You have done nothing but attack, ridicule and criticize. You have done nothing to bring people together. You have done nothing to be a peacemaker. You have done nothing to display any grace, decency, or charity. But you fail to see the log in your own eye, preferring instead to attack us while seeing yourself as sinless. (And if you don't see yourself as sinless, then you need to work on your own self and stop trying to pluck the specks from other eyes, when there is clearly a log in yours). Not only that, you have lied, by saying I denied that anyone was called heretic. I said "maybe they did, but if so I missed it".

Please keep your promise to be "done" with us until you can discuss things in a rational and polite manner. Thank you.

[repentant]

I hesitated to bring this up -- my intention is not to start fights or drive possible converts away by implying bigotry. But there has been some varying thoughts in a few threads in TAW about praying with non-Orthodox Christians and participating in their religious services. I understand our circumstances are different, and that economia does have its place in dealing with some of these issues, but I thought it was important to let everyone new to the faith understand what the actual position of Church is on this position.

First of all, Orthodox Christians are forbidden from praying with heretics and participating in their religious services. This is a good article for that issue.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayheretics.aspx

And for those who might be invited to eat supper with a non-Orthodox person/family, this article is also very helpful. Sit or stand respectfully while they pray, without praying with them, and after they finish, feel free to cross yourself and say your own Orthodox prayer silently to yourself.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/praynonorth.aspx

Refusing to pray with non-Orthodox or participate in their services is not bigotry. Prayer is communication with God. And joining with non-Orthodox in such an activity is assuming a common bond that you simply do not share. And while Protestantism as a whole has never been declared officially in many Orthodox circles as a heretical sect, believers of the filioque have -- which Protestantism does adhere to. These canons and teachings of the Church were not established to discriminate, but to protect the Truth, and safeguard the Church from false teachings. This does not mean we have to be disrespectful, but it is important that new Orthodox Christians aren't confused about this very important teaching.

I completely agree with the OP, and know many Clergymen who would as well.

There seems to be a problem in this country with being told not to do something. As Americans, we want to do as we choose, not be obedient to the Church. The Church teaches that those outside of her are not to be prayed with, So we shouldn't

I'm gonna be called crazy for this, but it's because most protestants probably don't pray to the same God we do!

To any non-Orthodox lurkers here, I don't mean this to say that you are evil people going to hell. However, Orthodox and Protestants often don't believe the same things about God. So the God we worship is not the same.

Now, I believe we could agree that we should only pray to the One True God. So, if I were in a situation where I was supposed to pray to a God that's not mine, I would refuse. This is the reason why we don't pray with non-Orthodox.

There are some priests out there that don't think it's a big deal, that however, doesn't make them right.

For what it is worth SaintPhotios, I was baptized when I was one, so that makes me Orthodox for 27 or so years now...and I agree with you.

I don't even like to eat with other people honestly. Sometimes you have to though.

What gets me, is people were quick to jump on someone new to the faith, and who is actually Orthodox about what he says, even though it was the truth...but praised a CATECHUMEN who thought he knew everything, and was wrong 50% of the time, oh and called a Deacon a heretic or whatever it was...


Also someone mentioned that the sites he posted were too harsh..well that is a common reaction when people hear the truth...There are maybe 5 or 6 people on this board who seem to like to stick to tradition about everything..and I quoted 2 of them here..

[repentant]

The information you sited is not the Doctrine of the Church... it is opinions by clergy.

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles:
"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

CANON XLVI of the Holy Apostles:
We order any Bishop, or Presbyter, that has accepted any heretics' Baptism, or sacrifice, to be deposed; for "what consonancy hath Christ with Beliar? or what part hath the believer with an infidel?"

Here it says to not even except any Baptism of heretics...of course there is oikonemia...but unforuntaly what was supposed to be oikomia, has become the norm. So if a Priest insisted on what is called "re-Baptism", he would only be following the Canons of the Church..(I know I will hear it for this one)

Canon IX of Laodicia (Also approved by the Ecumenical Synods)
"Concerning the fact that those belonging to the Church must not be allowed to go visiting the cemeteries or the so called martyria of any heretics, for the purpose of prayer or of cure, but, on the contrary, those who do so, if they be among the faithful, shall be excluded from communion for a time until they repent and confess their having made a mistake, when they may be readmitted to communion."

Canon XXXIII of Laodicia
"One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."

Seems to me that not praying with heretics is a Church thing, not an opinion of a member of the clergy...o but wait, I forgot..Canons are only "guidlines" so they don't really have to be followed...keep telling yourself that...

Canon I of the Fourth Ecumenical Synod
"We have acknowledged it as just to keep the canons of the holy Fathers set forth at each synod till now."

[jckstraw72]

good post Repentant

[Philothei]

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles:
"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

CANON XLVI of the Holy Apostles:
We order any Bishop, or Presbyter, that has accepted any heretics' Baptism, or sacrifice, to be deposed; for "what consonancy hath Christ with Beliar? or what part hath the believer with an infidel?"

Here it says to not even except any Baptism of heretics...of course there is oikonemia...but unforuntaly what was supposed to be oikomia, has become the norm. So if a Priest insisted on what is called "re-Baptism", he would only be following the Canons of the Church..(I know I will hear it for this one)

Canon IX of Laodicia (Also approved by the Ecumenical Synods)
"Concerning the fact that those belonging to the Church must not be allowed to go visiting the cemeteries or the so called martyria of any heretics, for the purpose of prayer or of cure, but, on the contrary, those who do so, if they be among the faithful, shall be excluded from communion for a time until they repent and confess their having made a mistake, when they may be readmitted to communion."

Canon XXXIII of Laodicia
"One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."

Seems to me that not praying with heretics is a Church thing, not an opinion of a member of the clergy...o but wait, I forgot..Canons are only "guidlines" so they don't really have to be followed...keep telling yourself that...

Canon I of the Fourth Ecumenical Synod
"We have acknowledged it as just to keep the canons of the holy Fathers set forth at each synod till now."
Repentant as usual ... you are taking cannons and apply them as you wish....
You know how many other cannons are not followed and are defunct? hundreds of them.... i.e. If you argue with your fellow man or get mad you cannot take communion for so and so time... also the priests are not allowed to walk in a mall.... or to the market... or they are not allowed to be seen with their wifes in a restaurant... It is naive to think you and me are the ones to 'enforce' the cannons....

If the Bishops pray with "heretics" then it is up to their soul and they will be judged....Because of divine dispensation the Church as a whole clergy and laity have certain lineancy when it comes to cannons... that is why the rudder is a book that only is to be handled by the clergy... not the laity. Like Akathist said we are to be obedient to our priests.....and to the whole ethos of the Church as a whole.

This is not 18th century Greece of Russia .... We live in a multinational and multicultural culture and we have a responsibility to our faith and our fellow man to witness I am sorry that some of you think of it as "giving in" ... it is not. Prayer is prayer and our clergy knows that wearing a stole is an Church prayer versus wearing the cassock when it is an Ecumenical prayer....
Why we have to see praying with our fellow chirstians (hate the word heretics.... personally) should be an act of betrayal? If it is outside the "liturgical" sense to me it is okay. I agree we should draw a line and that is where I would ... IMO I have heard of Catholic priests offering a sermon during orthodox weddings ... now that is unacceptable.... but in another setting ... like a bible study or so.. I do not see any harm...

Also I think it is aweful to bash again our clergy and Hierarchy for doing their best to witness... In one way we want to see our Church grow and witness on the other hand we do not.... we have to make up our mind what we want from our church and our hierarchy....

Isolating ourselves we will tend to become irrelevant to society and I am sorry the Apostles did not go hiding when they saw heretics... they rebuke them but they never denied them... maybe Christ should never have gone to Matthew's house then since he was a terrible sinner.....

God bless,
Philothei

[repentant]

Did I say some Canons should be followed, and others not? If I did then you can say what you said here, but since I didn't your posts are irrelivant...Canons are Canons and they are there for us to follow. This thread was about praying with heretics, not being mad at our brother and Communion, or Priests in the mall. So I am talking about praying with heretics, not weither Priests are in the mall or not. Not to mention besides the first one, I never even heard of the "Canons" you mentioned. Only one pertaining to a Priest and a restaraunt, was the Canon about Clergy being excommnicated if they eat in a taverna, unless they are traveling and have no choice..

Your response is exactly what I was talking about...And please show me the Canon whee it says only Bishops can know the canons, and say them and that lay people shouldn't know them...? That is like saying only the politicians can read the Constitution...you people need to get off the idea that you think you have no say in anything..unfortunaly this pacifism is what is going to lead to the leaders taking us into a false union with Rome eventually...and the ones who don't go will be the "crazy schismatics"..

[Orthosdoxa]

If this thread were a horse I'd have to shoot it.

[Philothei]

Did I say some Canons should be followed, and others not? If I did then you can say what you said here, but since I didn't your posts are irrelivant...Canons are Canons and they are there for us to follow. This thread was about praying with heretics, not being mad at our brother and Communion, or Priests in the mall. So I am talking about praying with heretics, not weither Priests are in the mall or not. Not to mention besides the first one, I never even heard of the "Canons" you mentioned. Only one pertaining to a Priest and a restaraunt, was the Canon about Clergy being excommnicated if they eat in a taverna, unless they are traveling and have no choice..

Your response is exactly what I was talking about...And please show me the Canon whee it says only Bishops can know the canons, and say them and that lay people shouldn't know them...? That is like saying only the politicians can read the Constitution...you people need to get off the idea that you think you have no say in anything..unfortunaly this pacifism is what is going to lead to the leaders taking us into a false union with Rome eventually...and the ones who don't go will be the "crazy schismatics"..
I did not say they should not "know" them rather even if they read them ... not to take them for face value... cause they are to be "intepreted" by SF and hierrchy not the laity.... and the examples I gave are very much in tune with the topic. We cannot 'apply' canons we think they are right .. literally. That is the whole point.

As far as the "pacifism" it is not.... the laity keeps the checks and ballances and is very well aware of church matters such as you mentioned. Neither does the Hierarchy wishes to scandalize the laity by exercising its power over them and act in an unchristian manner. They know they will cause schism...they are not that stupid....

. There has to be a balance and a mutual trust... rather than suspicion...Over-zealousy leads to fanaticism and foundamentalism....but I will not go there....

God bless,
Philothei

[MariaRegina]

Would funerals and weddings be considered different from a normal service?

What if you are at a service and are called upon to pray?

My dad had looked into Orthodoxy and was reading from the Orthodox Study Bible, but my mom would not take him to the Orthodox Church when he was too ill to drive.

When my father died, I spoke when each of the sons and daughters were asked to give eulogies at his funeral. After my eulogy, I sang the Greek Orthodox Hymn
"Eternal be his memory" in English. Yes, my priest gave me permission to speak.

I put an Icon Card which Father had blessed depicting the Risen Christ next to his memorabilia on display in the Baptist Church hall.

People came up afterward and shared their appreciation.

[repentant]

I did not say they should not "know" them rather even if they read them ... not to take them for face value... cause they are to be "intepreted" by SF and hierrchy not the laity.... and the examples I gave are very much in tune with the topic. We cannot 'apply' canons we think they are right .. literally. That is the whole point.

As far as the "pacifism" it is not.... the laity keeps the checks and ballances and is very well aware of church matters such as you mentioned. Neither does the Hierarchy wishes to scandalize the laity by exercising its power over them and act in an unchristian manner. They know they will cause schism...they are not that stupid....

. There has to be a balance and a mutual trust... rather than suspicion...Over-zealousy leads to fanaticism and foundamentalism....but I will not go there....

God bless,
Philothei


Canons are not up for interpretation, they are pretty blunt. Don't pray with heretics, or there will be a punishment. How hard is that? Again, please show me the Canon that says only Clergy can interpret Canons.. If what it takes to make a Council Ecumenical is for the laity to accept what was said, then wouldn't the laity have to interpet the Canons in order to accept them thus making the Council Ecumenical? Or do you insist that only Clergy can write, interpret, and say what the Canons are, and make them Ecumenical all by themselves?

[Orthosdoxa]

An honest question, repentant, so please don't bite my head off:

Let's say you marry a convert. You are now a part of her family, who are well meaning but misguided in their belief. You go to her folks' for Thankgiving. Her father says, "Let's stand for prayer before we eat".

Are you going to a - quietly stand there for the sake of peace, and just silently say the Lord's prayer or perhaps some of the Trisagion until they're done? Or are you b - actually going to leave the room?

Most of us are simply advocating A. Not seeking out "sola scriptura" Bible studies, not seeking out things that contradict our holy Faith... just things to keep peace.... and help create the type of OPEN COMMUNICATION that could eventually help us lead others into the Church. :pray: Are you REALLY going to lump us in with those who could promote a false union with Rome, as you did in a previous post? :confused:

Again, I'm already feeling defensive, because my experience here tells me I'm about to get a sarcastic, angry answer. But I'd like to know.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

I asked my priest about this and he told me that if you must go for the sake of family to go only as an observer and never participate. He said to be respectful but do not pray with them. I asked what about at gatherings when they pray over the food and he said that he's been in that situation numerous times, coming from a Southern Baptist background and that he just sits/stands quitely and respectfully then when the prayer is over he crosses himself and quietly says, "Lord have mercy."

[Philothei]

Canons are not up for interpretation, they are pretty blunt. Don't pray with heretics, or there will be a punishment. How hard is that? Again, please show me the Canon that says only Clergy can interpret Canons.. If what it takes to make a Council Ecumenical is for the laity to accept what was said, then wouldn't the laity have to interpet the Canons in order to accept them thus making the Council Ecumenical? Or do you insist that only Clergy can write, interpret, and say what the Canons are, and make them Ecumenical all by themselves?
Okay then maybe you can also give us "forgiveness of sins" too.. then... I am not going to loose my time with this one... I am sorry I brought it up .... Lord have mercy on us again and "Lord seal my lips" ....

And to answer your question... yes the clergy interprets the Bible, the Tradition and the canons... ask Fr. Ephraim on that one... too. and I am sure he will agree. Now in case you say that Fr. Ephraim does not agree with praying with heretics then again that is his "interpretation" of the canons... No one on this earth sticks to all canons...or we would never be worthy to take Eucarist EVER... It is up to individual clergy to say nay or yay to any given canon they have that privilege and that is why the Bishops are there to ensure and interpret canons Tradition etc.... It does not matter if you or me like it or not... that is how it is in the Tradition of Church.

Also, if Christ believed that the Jews who did not accept him were "heretics" why then did he go to have fellowship with them? I am sure he prayed with them going to different places with them and most of them did not accept him.... so? He should have only "stick" with the apostles... in your thinking....

We view the canons with discerment... we apply (the clergy and the Bishops, and laity that is who is the church) with economia ... they are not suits to fit every situation and every person... each situation is different... Ecumenism has nothing to do with "fellowship" and "prayer" ... especially outside of liturgical services... and in our church buildings...That has been my experience from my life in the Church if it is wrong so be it... I spent half of my life around seminary and clergy... I do not think God will punish them or myself...

Lord have mercy on us .... and save us from pride...

God bless,
Philothei

[eastcoast_bsc]

So it is Heretical for Orthodox and catholics to pray together ? Well we just added two to the clan.

ISTANBUL, Turkey (CNS) -- In a meeting of East and West, Pope Benedict XVI prayed with Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople and renewed the church's commitment to the search for Christian unity.

The pope expressed his great

Orthodox leader in Boston praying with Catholics:



Boston Prelates Lead Faithful to Rome, Istanbul

ROME, SEPT. 21, 2007

Going on a pilgrimage with an ecumenical group helps Christians draw closer together as they draw closer to God, says an organizer of the 2007 Boston Orthodox-Catholic Pilgrimage.

Cardinal Sean O'Malley, archbishop of Boston, and Metropolitan Methodios, the Greek Orthodox leader of Boston, are leading 100 pilgrims this month on an ecumenical pilgrimage to venerate the holy places of Rome, Istanbul, Turkey, and St. Petersburg, Russia.

Benedict XVI greeted both prelates Wednesday at the general audience before they departed for Istanbul.

Vito Nicastro, associate director of the Office for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs of the Boston Archdiocese, told ZENIT that the idea of a Catholic-Orthodox pilgrimage is the fruit "deep-rooted decades-long relationship including all sorts of visits, common witness, collaboration for good, and theological dialogue."

"For years," he said, "we have practiced standing together, speaking together, praying together.

"It is a process led by our bishops and undertaken in total adherence to our bishops -- that's a necessity. This pilgrimage, like many ecumenical endeavors, represents the strictest conformity with the magisterium."

Praying in Mass and sharing easter together:

In Antioch, a prayer meeting will be held by Catholics and Orthodox together. For 15 years, in the city where the disciples of Jesus were called "Christians" (cfr Act 11:26), Catholics celebrate Easter on the same date as the Orthodox, they participate in each other's activities, celebrate marriages and funerals together and collaborate for works of charity in the city. This ecumenical experience – shared by the Catholic parish priest, Fr Domenico Bertogli and the Greek-Orthodox priests – is in line with the hopes of Benedict XVI, who is coming to Turkey with "ardent emotion" to unite "fraternally with the Orthodox Church on the feast of the apostle St Andrew."

The leaders of Both churches are reaching out and praying together.

[jckstraw72]

eastcoast -- if those reports are true that is a pretty bad thing for Orthodox -- its quite simply not something we should be doing, especially the clergy and especially in such an organized, official manner.

[eastcoast_bsc]

eastcoast -- if those reports are true that is a pretty bad thing for Orthodox -- its quite simply not something we should be doing, especially the clergy and especially in such an organized, official manner.

Just do a simple google query. I can post pictures also. Orthodox leaders and Catholic leaders have prayed together. I see that as a good thing. We are all members of the Body of Christ. Now just to add a caveat, I am not talking about Hare Khrisnas or any other extreme. :) I am speaking of Apostolic Churches.

[eastcoast_bsc]

Here is a part of the story from the Boston Globe:


http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/from_provider_globe.gif (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/) Greek Orthodox, Catholics gather before pilgrimage

Blessing given; unity sought

By Ryan Haggerty, Globe Correspondent | September 7, 2007

In an effort to promote unity between their faiths, about 100 clergy and lay members of local Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches were blessed yesterday as they prepared to embark on a 10-day pilgrimage next week to Rome, Istanbul, and St. Petersburg.




The trip is only the third of its kind. It will be led by Metropolitan Methodios, leader of the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston, and Cardinal Sean P. O'Malley, the archbishop of Boston.
"It's significant for both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church because it's an opportunity for us to travel to the centers of our churches in Rome and Constantinople," Methodios said after the prayer service at the metropolis's campus in Brookline. "It's an opportunity to further our quest for the unity of our churches. . . . What a tremendous witness Christianity could give to the world if we were united."
The first such pilgrimage of Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox parishioners left from Boston in 1996, said Vito Nicastro, associate director of the office for ecumenical and interreligious affairs at the Archdiocese of Boston.
A similar pilgrimage departed from Chicago a few years later, he said.
The schism between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church developed about 1,000 years ago, in part because of disputes over papal authority and doctrinal disagreements. Attempts to reunite the churches in the first few centuries after the spilt proved unsuccessful.
"Our two churches have so much in common, and we look forward to sharing this pilgrimage together to deepen our sense of friendship," O'Malley said. "We want to strengthen our unity. We believe that is God's will."
The group of about 10 clergy and 90 parishioners leaves Boston for Rome on Sept. 16 and returns from St. Petersburg on Sept. 26. Highlights of the trip include an audience in Rome with Pope Benedict XVI; dinner in Istanbul with Patriarch Bartholomew, the honorary spiritual leader of all Orthodox Christians; a visit in St. Petersburg with leaders of the Russian Orthodox Church, the largest Orthodox church in the world; and visits to sites considered sacred by both religions, such as the tombs of Sts. Peter and Paul in Rome.
Dean Stamoulis, one of the Greek Orthodox parishioners who will be making the trip, said he joined the pilgrimage because he believes in its mission.
"The biggest thing for me is the unity and the ecumenical outreach of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church," he said during a reception after yesterday's prayer service. "Oftentimes, I've heard that we're like two lungs of the same body. . . . When Christ died, he left one united church. Orthodox and Christians are still part of that same church."

[Yeznik]

My understanding of orthodoxy, when I pray amongst heretics I will alway cross myself and pray to God, for I know no other God I should pray to, and I know no other God that will hear my prayers.

[Philothei]

Here is a part of the story from the Boston Globe:
I know that Bishop as he was my Bishop :). I will say that I am pround of his efford. I have participated in an Ecumenical service (Vesperal) with all of the Bishops of Boston in a downtown Church (Episcopal) years ago. I am not afraid for the opposition to something like that as it does not mean nothing... only that we as fellow Christians can sit in fellowship and pray... If the more 'conservative' ones look upon this with 'horror' then it is okay...


No one is required to agree with that efford. It teaches children that Christian unity is okay.... not that it is necessary or we are the same...I deny to see that it is as harmful. How can it "hurt" our Faith? We are not in communion with them and that is clear cut from our Bishops...

I know that since I have seen the communications from the BOB (bishop of boston) actually send out to clergy NOT TO COMMUNE RC ... frequently and many other to that effect i.e. funerals NO LAITY to do the eulogy ....etc... So I know first hand that there is a clear cut message as to how far that Ecumenism is applied and the laity from that diocese can confirm that.... also. Doing a pilgramage in GOOD WILL has nothing to do with JOINING A HERETICAL church in full communion that will probably takes aeons to be accomplished....

And EAstcost I do not think you should be posting here and stir contraversy in our forum....Please do not or I will have to report you. Thank you.
God bless,
Philothei

[Orthosdoxa]

"Oftentimes, I've heard that we're like two lungs of the same body. . . . When Christ died, he left one united church. Orthodox and Christians are still part of that same church.":swoon::swoon::swoon::swoon:

Where to begin. He needs some catechism, badly.

Look, eastcoast, you made your point. Ecumenical activities are happening. We get it. The Church teaches otherwise. That doesn't mean everyone obeys it. And as Philothei pointed out, Doing a pilgramage in GOOD WILL has nothing to do with JOINING A HERETICAL church in full communion that will probably takes aeons to be accomplished....

Any unity between us and the Catholic Church would be false, unless they were willing to give up all of the innovations that happened after 1054. Then they would be brought into the Church and received with joy and thanksgiving.

But hey, false unity is fine and we can pretend to believe all the same things, because Truth isn't as important as keeping everyone happy, right?

You keep running back to OBOB to tell them how horrible we are, not because anyone here is overtly mean, but because YOU DON'T LIKE OUR CHURCH'S TEACHINGS. Exactly what you're trying to do here is beyond me. Are we supposed to trust you? Every time you hear one of our teachings you don't like, you start yelling and arguing, then running to OBOB to have them lick your wounds. What are we supposed to do with you? Change the doctrines we've held for 2000 years just to keep you happy?

[Ishida]

I know that Bishop as he was my Bishop :). I will say that I am pround of his efford. I have participated in an Ecumenical service (Vesperal) with all of the Bishops of Boston in a downtown Church (Episcopal) years ago. I am not afraid for the opposition to something like that as it does not mean nothing... only that we as fellow Christians can sit in fellowship and pray... If the more 'conservative' ones look upon this with 'horror' then it is okay...


No one is required to agree with that efford. It teaches children that Christian unity is okay.... not that it is necessary or we are the same...I deny to see that it is as harmful. How can it "hurt" our Faith? We are not in communion with them and that is clear cut from our Bishops...

I know that since I have seen the communications from the BOB (bishop of boston) actually send out to clergy NOT TO COMMUNE RC ... frequently and many other to that effect i.e. funerals NO LAITY to do the eulogy ....etc... So I know first hand that there is a clear cut message as to how far that Ecumenism is applied and the laity from that diocese can confirm that.... also. Doing a pilgramage in GOOD WILL has nothing to do with JOINING A HERETICAL church in full communion that will probably takes aeons to be accomplished....

And EAstcost I do not think you should be posting here and stir contraversy in our forum....Please do not or I will have to report you. Thank you.
God bless,
Philothei
According to this thread, we aren't fellow Christians.
I don't hate true religion, but what it has become.

[Ishida]

But it says you go to Broadway Christian Church... did you become an atheist or something?
No, just that ol' heresy of caring more about doing God's will then being guilty for "praying with "heretics".

[Akathist]

Lets make a deal. Members of TAW will stop responding to inappropriate posts. And members of CF who are not EO will stop posting things that are not fellowship or ernest questions to learn about our faith.

And staff will try to get things cleaned up nice and tidy ASAP.

Deal?

[SeraphimSarov]

Yaaaay. :)

[MariaRegina]

We honor Mary as the Mother of God because she bore the Eternal Word of God in her womb.

And the Holy Bible quotes Mary saying, "Henceforth, all generations shall call me blessed."

Do you agree with the Holy Bible?

[Ishida]

We honor Mary as the Mother of God because she bore the Eternal Word of God in her womb.

And the Holy Bible quotes Mary saying, "Henceforth, all generations shall call me blessed."

Do you agree with the Holy Bible?
Yes she is very blessed, but the only place I see Queen of heaven is in the old testament, and God is not happy about it.

[buzuxi02]

Yes she is very blessed, but the only place I see Queen of heaven is in the old testament, and God is not happy about it.
While "Queen of heaven" is not a quintessential orthodox expression in describing Mary, Orthodoxy does considers Psalm 45. 9, 13-17 to be a prophecy of Mary. where she is portrayed as a kind of queen of heaven.

[repentant]

An honest question, repentant, so please don't bite my head off:

Let's say you marry a convert. You are now a part of her family, who are well meaning but misguided in their belief. You go to her folks' for Thankgiving. Her father says, "Let's stand for prayer before we eat".

Are you going to a - quietly stand there for the sake of peace, and just silently say the Lord's prayer or perhaps some of the Trisagion until they're done? Or are you b - actually going to leave the room?

Most of us are simply advocating A. Not seeking out "sola scriptura" Bible studies, not seeking out things that contradict our holy Faith... just things to keep peace.... and help create the type of OPEN COMMUNICATION that could eventually help us lead others into the Church. :pray: Are you REALLY going to lump us in with those who could promote a false union with Rome, as you did in a previous post? :confused:

Again, I'm already feeling defensive, because my experience here tells me I'm about to get a sarcastic, angry answer. But I'd like to know.

You are equating "heretics praying in your presence" and "praying with heretics" as the same thing. It isn't. Does that answer your question?

And read again about what I said about a false union with Rome..What I said was that it is the PASSIVISM of the laity that will let the leaders lead us into a false union with Rome...

[repentant]

Okay then maybe you can also give us "forgiveness of sins" too.. then... I am not going to loose my time with this one... I am sorry I brought it up .... Lord have mercy on us again and "Lord seal my lips" ....

And to answer your question... yes the clergy interprets the Bible, the Tradition and the canons... ask Fr. Ephraim on that one... too. and I am sure he will agree. Now in case you say that Fr. Ephraim does not agree with praying with heretics then again that is his "interpretation" of the canons... No one on this earth sticks to all canons...or we would never be worthy to take Eucarist EVER... It is up to individual clergy to say nay or yay to any given canon they have that privilege and that is why the Bishops are there to ensure and interpret canons Tradition etc.... It does not matter if you or me like it or not... that is how it is in the Tradition of Church.

Also, if Christ believed that the Jews who did not accept him were "heretics" why then did he go to have fellowship with them? I am sure he prayed with them going to different places with them and most of them did not accept him.... so? He should have only "stick" with the apostles... in your thinking....

We view the canons with discerment... we apply (the clergy and the Bishops, and laity that is who is the church) with economia ... they are not suits to fit every situation and every person... each situation is different... Ecumenism has nothing to do with "fellowship" and "prayer" ... especially outside of liturgical services... and in our church buildings...That has been my experience from my life in the Church if it is wrong so be it... I spent half of my life around seminary and clergy... I do not think God will punish them or myself...

Lord have mercy on us .... and save us from pride...

God bless,
Philothei


Ok philothei, whatever you say. We the laity say nothing..and have you ever met Elder Ephraim? If not, then don't talk about what he would or wouldn't say...

ecumenism at it's finest..

[buzuxi02]

Just do a simple google query. I can post pictures also. Orthodox leaders and Catholic leaders have prayed together. I see that as a good thing. We are all members of the Body of Christ. Now just to add a caveat, I am not talking about Hare Khrisnas or any other extreme. :) I am speaking of Apostolic Churches.
Yes, they do participate in such nonsense, and yes they are wrong. In fact this extreme ecumenism has been the most harmful thing to the church in the last century and many have seperated from the EP for it.

[Sacrum Silentium]

Mary is highly honored and rightly so. God the Son descended from the ineffable heights of heaven to below the angels into the virgin's womb. She gave birth to He who birthed us all. She nursed He who sustains us all. She was pure. She was holy. She is someone who we should strive to emulate. She is not simply any old woman, she accepted the will of God from the Archangel, and prophesied that all ages would call her blessed.

However, Mary is never worshipped, never has been worshipped, never will be worshipped. It's that simple.

Oh, and about ecumenism... it is the greatest heresy of our time. This spineless teaching will only pave the way for AntiChrist, plain and simple. Reunification won't happen as long as a Pope exists, and then the Roman flock is going to have to do a lot of changing theologically.

[SaintPhotios]

It seems like the root of the problem is others getting offended. But I think others getting offended is simply a testament of our shortcomings in failing to spread the Orthodox faith and what it truly means. I'm not saying we're failing -- Orthodox growth, at least in the States, has been amazing over the past decade. But I think if we respectfully, but honestly, explained our faith to those around us, then there would be no reason to be offended. If there is someone that is close enough to me that I will be sharing a Thanksgiving meal with them, or be in any position in which these awkward situations might occur, why haven't I already told them about the Orthodox faith?

It doesn't take much.... they can know before these problems ever arise that it is simply part of our faith that we are only allowed to pray with and commune with Orthodox Christians -- and I think in context, it can be conveyed in a very inoffensive way. So if I'm in one of those situations and someone is offended, it simply means that I haven't done my job as an Orthodox Christian. It is ultimately up to the hierarchy to teach. But the laymen have never been forbidden from spreading the faith.

And regarding Ecumenism..... I'm not one of those that thinks ecumenical efforts are inherently wrong. Assuming there is a way to make other conform to the Orthodox faith and not the other way around, I think these efforts, although extremely difficult, should be encouraged. But what we have seen by some of the Bishops is certainly not to be encouraged. The heart of Orthodoxy, the Fathers of Holy Mount Athos, sent a letter to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew pleading with him about his disturbing ecumenical behavior... its a very good letter, and here's the link to it....

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
(it is the bottom portion of the page)

[jckstraw72]

my Catholic cousin asked me to carry the Eucharistic gifts to present to the priest in her wedding -- it was kinda awkward having to explain that our Church is quite strict on such matters, but I made it through alive haha!

[eastcoast_bsc]

Miss Post

[Dorothea]

An honest question, repentant, so please don't bite my head off:

Let's say you marry a convert. You are now a part of her family, who are well meaning but misguided in their belief. You go to her folks' for Thankgiving. Her father says, "Let's stand for prayer before we eat".

Are you going to a - quietly stand there for the sake of peace, and just silently say the Lord's prayer or perhaps some of the Trisagion until they're done? Or are you b - actually going to leave the room?

Most of us are simply advocating A. Not seeking out "sola scriptura" Bible studies, not seeking out things that contradict our holy Faith... just things to keep peace.... and help create the type of OPEN COMMUNICATION that could eventually help us lead others into the Church. :pray: Are you REALLY going to lump us in with those who could promote a false union with Rome, as you did in a previous post? :confused:

Again, I'm already feeling defensive, because my experience here tells me I'm about to get a sarcastic, angry answer. But I'd like to know.
It's hard to love our neighbors and be Christ-like to people if we have such the attitude that you described in selection "b."

[Orthosdoxa]

never mind.

[eastcoast_bsc]

And I bet they greeted you warmly and never once called you a Heretic. Bye

[Forest]

There seems to be a problem in this country with being told not to do something. As Americans, we want to do as we choose, not be obedient to the Church. The Church teaches that those outside of her are not to be prayed with, So we shouldn't

I'm gonna be called crazy for this, but it's because most protestants probably don't pray to the same God we do!

To any non-Orthodox lurkers here, I don't mean this to say that you are evil people going to hell. However, Orthodox and Protestants often don't believe the same things about God. So the God we worship is not the same.

Now, I believe we could agree that we should only pray to the One True God. So, if I were in a situation where I was supposed to pray to a God that's not mine, I would refuse. This is the reason why we don't pray with non-Orthodox.

There are some priests out there that don't think it's a big deal, that however, doesn't make them right.

Well, if you believe that non-Orthodox pray to a different god, then you might as well say they are going to hell, because Who else can save other than the one true God?

[Thekla]

this is a "battle" I don't want to step into, but here goes :

any parent knows that "words can shape" someone. The extent depends on too many factors to quantify, and the effect as well.

The "set prayers" are theologically sound. They are balanced, as are the hymns. Especially when we are weak (many times a day for me), we are more easily "formed/informed" by the enviornment.

When praying with others, who knows what words will be used, and how they will "form us". Without knowing the "theological depth" of each expression of faith, how can we evaluate the "words", and their effect on our understanding - especially when we are babes ? The Church is our "mother" and is mindful of this phenomenon.

[Bushmaster78FS]

I'll try not to confuse you with St. Photios.


Wow, bwaahahahaha... Thanks for that.. ^_^ Hold on.... :sick:

[Ishida]

Mary is highly honored and rightly so. God the Son descended from the ineffable heights of heaven to below the angels into the virgin's womb. She gave birth to He who birthed us all. She nursed He who sustains us all. She was pure. She was holy. She is someone who we should strive to emulate. She is not simply any old woman, she accepted the will of God from the Archangel, and prophesied that all ages would call her blessed.

However, Mary is never worshipped, never has been worshipped, never will be worshipped. It's that simple.

Oh, and about ecumenism... it is the greatest heresy of our time. This spineless teaching will only pave the way for AntiChrist, plain and simple. Reunification won't happen as long as a Pope exists, and then the Roman flock is going to have to do a lot of changing theologically.
That's the greatest heresy? I don't think so. This world would be much better if it were true. Can you prove nobody worships Mary? Maybe not in Orthodoxy, but you can never know.

[Sacrum Silentium]

She may be. Hey, there's a sect called the Antedeluvians who worship Noah too. Hard to tell.

So what's the greatest heresy?

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

In addition, the patriachs have been dining and communing with catholics.

Are you saying the patriarchs have been sharing the Eucharist with Catholics? Or do you just mean communing the way I commune with my Baptist family?

[Akathist]

That's the greatest heresy? I don't think so. This world would be much better if it were true. Can you prove nobody worships Mary? Maybe not in Orthodoxy, but you can never know.

No one who is Orthodox worships "Mary" (we call her Theotokos) because if they did they would no longer be Orthodox and would have put themselves out of the Church.

[MariaRegina]

According to this thread, we aren't fellow Christians.
I don't hate true religion, but what it has become.

You are a Christian; however, you don't have the fullness of the Holy Spirit through the anointing of Chrism in Holy Chrismation.

When I was a Catholic and visited the Orthodox Church for the first time, I noticed there was something lacking in my faith ... true repentance.

Although I thought that I had been repentant, when I noticed the deep repentance that was required of Orthodox Christians, I wanted to embrace Orthodoxy immediately. However, first I had to become a catechumen and submit myself to the spiritual direction of an Orthodox Priest and learn the ethos by worshiping with the Orthodox at the Divine Liturgy.

p.s. The grace in Holy Chrismation was immediately felt.

[Shubunkin]

Heresy is what caused the divisions of the church into denominations in the first place. Are those divisions still the church today? It is as we keep saying all along, "We know where the Church is, not where it isn't!"

[Akathist]

Moved to the debate area of TAW at staff consensus

[Philothei]

Heresy is what caused the divisions of the church into denominations in the first place. Are those divisions still the church today? It is as we keep saying all along, "We know where the Church is, not where it isn't!"
You got a point there :)