biblical oaths

[chrisbritain]

Hello
I thought I'd ask this to a fundamentalist because I wanted an opinion from strict Christians.
What counts as a biblical oath does it have to be spoken or can it just be mental?
By that I meen if you tell God your do something in your mind(not verbally) does that count as an oath or vow or not?

Also the other day I was doing something and I kind of day dreamed for a second or so and said to God I would do something does that count as an oath or vow or not.
I was concience I was doing it but dont know if I had time to react. I spose the fact that i regreted it after may suggest I wasn't serious.
Thankyou
chris

[ContentInHim]

I honestly don't know.

I know that I've "thought" of things, like helping someone or doing something - not as an oath, but just a thought. If it's been approved, so to speak, by God, I know it and then act on it.

If your mental oath that you now regret was not godly, I'm positive that you should not keep it. If it was godly and you regret it, why don't you pray about it and see how God answers.

And welcome to 4U! :wave:

[BigNorsk]

An oath is where you swear by something. You might say, "As God is my witness." Or, "Upon my Mother's grave." Simply saying you are going to do something is not an oath. A Christian is told to let his yes be yes and his no be no, so you are simply to do what you say. In no way does saying you are going to do something violate the prohibition against an oath.

Marv

[chrisbritain]

hello
Ok so as I said the other day I didn't want to do something(nothing sinfull) but when I was talking to somebody' I was thinking to myself for some reason don't tell God your do it' and then probably because of that and the fact I was talking to somebody else and so maybe not concentrating fully on what I was thinking I just said quickly in my mind to God that I would.
I was concience I was doing it but possibly I didn't have time to react.
I didn't want to do it I,m thinking possibly the reason I did it was because I kept on thinking don't do it and my mind wandered for a few seconds.
So if that doesn't count as a oath does it count as a vow or doesn't it matter?
thankyou
chris

[BigNorsk]

I don't know what you are really asking. If you said you were going to do something, then do it. Assuming of course that it would not be sinful. Like if you said you were going to murder your sister, then you wouldn't do that of course. But if you said you were going to do something go do it. End of story. Let your yes be yes and your no, no. Let your word be truthful.

It's starting to sound like you want to play around some way thinking if it isn't an oath or vow that you don't need to do it, and that isn't at all what the text is saying.

What the text says is not to make vows or oaths and the reason being is that you do not know the future. God knows the future and you should not usurp his positon by assuming you are in control of the future.

In no way is this a weasel verse where if you didn't say some magic words then you aren't bound to do what you said you would.

The whole point is that as a Christian, your word is good, and you don't have to beat your chest and proclaim all sorts of oaths in order to possibly keep your word.

If you promised God to do something, the only question is are you good for it, or are you looking for a way to get out of it?

And why would you even be thinking don't tell God that you will do something when you are talking to some person? Were you trying to deceive the person and thinking that if you just don't promise God you aren't bound or what?

Marv

[chrisbritain]

Hello Marv(or whoever else wishes to respond to this post)

I havn't told you everything wich is why my post didn't make alot of sence.
I think its very important that you pay close attention to what I,m writing perhaps read it more than once because its quite strange!

What it is is I have obsesive compulsive dissorder.
At the moment I think about vows alot.
I,m constently thinking don't make a vow don't make a vow.
Now what this meens is that with most things I do' I get a kind of compulsion to make some kind of vow in my mind(not verbal) to God.
E.G' look above where I,ve broken the paragragh up and left a space in beetween the words "quite strange" 'and the next paragragh starting with "What it is" When I pressed the enter buton to make the space I had a kind of compulsive thought to say to God(in my mind) I won't leave a gap' instead of leaving one' but then I said in my mind quickley I don't make a vow do you see what I meen? to stop myslef from doing it.

Now the other day at work someone said to me shall we knock this wall down with the sledge hammer(because I work in construction just incase you didn't gather that) I said to him "no' knock it down with the kango(a Kango is a michine like a drill wich does it faster just incase you wondered)
But when I said that to him 'at the same time 'I had a kind of compulsion to say to God (in my mind)that I would knock it down with the sledge' But this time my mind kind of wandered or I got muddled up or something for a few seconds 'possibly because I was talking at the same time and I didn't say no I don't make a vow, I said (in my mind) to God I'll knoock it down with the sledge' do you understand what I meen?
I dought I really ment it it would be pointless to knock it down with the sledge I might have ment it for that few seconds but if I was fully concentrating on what I was saying to God(in my mind) I seriously dought I would have done it.
So do you think that counts as a vow? I hope you can understand what I meen if you don't understand any bits ask me and I,ll try to expalin it.
thankyou
chris

[Albion]

Hello
I thought I'd ask this to a fundamentalist because I wanted an opinion from strict Christians.
What counts as a biblical oath does it have to be spoken or can it just be mental?
By that I meen if you tell God your do something in your mind(not verbally) does that count as an oath or vow or not?

Also the other day I was doing something and I kind of day dreamed for a second or so and said to God I would do something does that count as an oath or vow or not.
I was concience I was doing it but dont know if I had time to react. I spose the fact that i regreted it after may suggest I wasn't serious.
Thankyou
chris

From everything I know of scripture and Christian history, it is not possible to give or make an oath without doing it in public.

You can, IMO, make a private promise to God, and I'd be concerned not to be at least intending to follow through on it when you make it. But how the Bible treats oaths doesn't bear upon this.

[BigNorsk]

Okay, here's the basic advice. Forget about it. God does not hold you to such thoughts. They are nothing but the ramblings of your disorder. In no way shape or form do they rise to the level of a vow or oath or even a promise. Don't let it bother you, don't bother thinking about them, they aren't worth even thinking about.

Marv

[chrisbritain]

Hello
I wondered I have another queiry about whether I made a promise to God or not. This is different to the last question if you read it carefully.

The other day I was watching tv and I was thinking about some stuff and I was thinking I didn't want to waste any more time doing some things that I do which may be pointless.
Now I was tired at the time and I think I was just laying my head down to go to sleep for a couple of hours(I wasn't a sleep though) I may have been just day dreaming not trying to go to sleep but I virtually deffinately shore I wasn't fully concience and properly thinking about what I was saying to God in my mind!
Now for a few seconds I just day dreamed and said to God in my mind I won't waste anymore time doing those things or I,ll be dammed.
Now of course I would seriously dought that I ment it really I may have ment it kind of half conciously because I was tired and not thinking properly at the time I would never fully conciesly and after thinking about it make a promise like that to God in my mind the only reason again that I said it was because I,m always thinking about it so occatioanally if my mind just wandered for a few seconds and I might say to God I,ll do something which in all honestly will be virtually impossible to do..
So just to recap it wasn't that I thought it through and then said it to God my mind just wandered for a few seconds but I may have ment it partly when I said it but I seriously dought I ment it fully.

These questions are strange I know I would really appricieate some replys
thankyou
chris

[chrisbritain]

Just want to explain a little bit more clearly what I meen.
What I meen is I said (in my mind) if I waste any more time on this I,ll be dammed.
When i said it (in my mind) I think I was trying to go to sleep but I may have been just day dreaming.

Anyway when I said it (in my mind) I may have not said it to God I may have just said it to myself or possibly not really aimed it at anyone' I may have just thought the words without saying it to God.
I think it may be unlikely that even if I was day dreaming' that I wouldn't have quickly relized what I was saying if I was aiming it at God so it may be that I just thought to myself.
But if I did say it(in my mind) and aim it at God then I wasn't really thinking what I was doing and I don't know if I actually ment it when I did it(in my mind) Its probably now I come to think of it very unlikely that I did meen it.
I probably just said it to God in a kind of day dreamy saying it but havn't quite replized what I,m saying don't meen it way' if you know what I meen.

hope to get some replys soon
chris

[BigNorsk]

Chris,

What do you think the answer is?

Marv

[chrisbritain]

Well
Can you really meen something if your just day dreaming.
What do you think would make a valid promise I meen do you have to have thought it through do you have to meen it for it to be valid.
When I did it I hadn't thought it through it wasn't as if I was thinking about doing it, when I did it I don't know if I was thinking it to myself because its constently on my mind or if I was saying it to God.
I think the most likely answer is that I not really properly aiming it at God' maybe semi conciously but not fully consiously because I would never do that' but I don't think I really ment it' how could I?'I didn't really know I was doing it at the time' as soon as I became fully concious what I was doing it I stopped.
I,m also aware that my ocd may meen that I worry to much about weird things.

[BigNorsk]

You tell me, did you really mean it?

[chrisbritain]

I,m going to explain what I think the worst possible situation could be' and then you could tell me whether you think that would count as a promise or not.
The worst possible stuation is that I had what I think is called a fraudian slip.
I think that normally these are when something slips out like you might accidentaly say you don't like something when you have said you do e.g. you say you like someones cooking even though you don't. As I said mine was only mentally so maybe its something different like when something slips into your head for a few seconds that most of the time you wouldn't think e.g. you might think for a few seconds ow I,d like to buy that even though you don't really' I had it the other day it just popped into my head that I wanted to buy something even though I deffinately didn't but I wanted to in those few seconds.
Now I don' want to make a promise to God but maybe at some sub-concience level I do possibly because I don't think they are vallied promises and I think its just my ocd so I try to make them so I can get over it' one of the therapies to get over ocd is face your obsesions head on.
So the worst possible situation is that when I did it I ment it for those few seconds when I did it' so do you think that would count as a valied promise?
But as I said I have my dought' I think its more likely that I just said it in my head and that i wasn't really saying it to God and that I didn't meen it.

thankyou
chris

[BigNorsk]

I would agree that facing things head on is the way to deal with your obsessive compulsive disorder. So far though, you are refusing. Facing it head on isn't coming here to find out what you think. You know what you think, God knows what you think, we don't know what you think. All we have to go on is what you say, and so you can get no assurance from us. You have to turn to God in faith.

I don't know if you really wanted to spend eternity separated from God in unspeakable anguish in the lake of fire. Or if your thought was just a passing thing where you didn't even mean it at all, or even if you had said it it was more just a sloppy figure of speech than any real wish. I really don't know. But you do.

So you take what you know. Let's say you didn't mean it, it was immature language that you didn't really mean. Then you would confess, and repent of that behavior. Confession really meaning to understand and repent to change and not do it again, or really better to intend not to do it again, I can't understand for you, you have to do that.

Anyway, then you pray something useful. Something like.

Heavenly Father, please forgive me for my thoughts. I do not desire to curse myself nor anyone else. Please strengthen me and fill me with your love for you, for others and even for myself. Strengthen me and give me better control over myself. Thank you for being so great and loving and so forgiving of my weaknesses and sins. Amen.

Or if you actually meant it, then something like this.

Heavenly Father, I do not want to be away from you ever and certainly not for all eternity. I am so sorry for dishonoring you with my thoughts. I want nothing other than to be with you and honor you forever. Please forgive me Father. Amen.

And that is the end of it, period, fini, gone, remembered no more. And the reason for that is that you have faith. You believe the gospel promises. God is faithful to forgive us ALL our sins when we turn to him for forgiveness. Not because we are so wonderful or deserving but because God is faithful and righteous and he promised to do so.

If the blood of Jesus is so weak that it cannot wash away whatever if any sin was present in your fleeting thought, then we are all doomed, it is all in vain. I believe the blood of Jesus is more powerful than any sin of yours. I pray that you come to believe it too.

When you have prayed for forgiveness, then put it away, it exists no more. Do not dwell on it. The bible gives us a mental picture of those who turn back to their sins.

Pro 26:11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit,21
so a fool repeats his folly.22


Ever see a dog do that, vomit something up and then eat it right back down? Well, that's what people do when they ask for forgiveness, giving it to God. He forgives them, and then they turn from him and grab their sin and gobble it down again, refusing to let it go.

Don't be like the dog.

Marv
Marv

[chrisbritain]

Hello
Marv you do understand that it wasn't spoken verbally only a thought in my head don't you? I think you do but you said sloppy language so I wasn't to sure.
You say I know what I thought but I don't! I think there may be a missunderstanding let me explian. I didn't want to make a promise to God then or now or ever but I think about it alot because of my ocd now when I thought this is was ONLY for a few seconds 2 or 3 seconds and it just popped into my head I didn't think it through and then decide to do it' I didn't want to make a promise to God but its possible that in those few seconds I did want to' like when you don't want to buy something but you change your mind for just a couple of seconds and then change it back again. It just popped into my head because as I said I think about promises to God alot and I was thinking I don't want to waste any more time doing these things(That was what the promise (if it is a promise )was if you remeber just look back at the last couple of messages if you can't remeber ) and so thats how it came into my head I didn't think ow I,ll make a promise to God and then do it.
Now as I said I,m not sure if I ment it or not' I didn't want to make promises to God so its unlikely that I did meen it probably sub-conciesly I didn't meen it.

But I,m abit confused because if I did meen it in those few seconds would that count as a promise or not because if it did wouldn't it be binding like a vow or not and so I would be unable to take it back?
chris

[chrisbritain]

Just one more thing so you know' the reason I don't know what I thought was because I can't remeber' as I said I only thought it for a few seconds and as I said its quite likely I was trying to sleep at the time.
Also I didn't worry about it to much at first it was only later that I started to worry thats also is one of the reasons I can't remember exactly what I thought or whether I was trying to sleep at the time or not.
I can't emphasize enough that I didn't want to make apromise to God at the time but my mind may have slipped for a few seconds when I did it and Its that few seconds where I,m not to sure if I ment it or not.
thankyou
Chris

[BigNorsk]

I understand just fine. You are making a huge thing out of something you don't even remember and you are asking me to tell you what you did. Doesn't sound to me like you did anything. Your biggest sin is wasting your life worrying about nothing.

You weren't really concious, you don't really remember, yet you ask me what you did? Why don't you ask your therapist what you can do to quite wasting your life on things that are nothing, that we don't even know they happened and they didn't mean anything at the time even if they did?

Turn to God in prayer, ask forgiveness for whatever it was. And accept forgiveness. Then turn from it because it is over and done. The End.

[chrisbritain]

Hello Marv
I assume you got my private messege but I,ll say this anyway.

I do not expect you to know what I did or what I was thinking at the time I,m trying to to find out whether you think it is a valied promise or not.

Now I,m going to go through the scenarios and you can tell me whether you think they count as promises or not' again I do not expect you to know which one happened I,m just going through the scenarios.

1.)The worst case scenario is that my mind just slipped for a few seconds and I ment it for just those few seconds but as I said I think thats unlikely because I didn't want to make a vow so how could I change my mind just for a few seconds and really meen it' normally when that happens something changes like you might be glad you bought a new car but then something might go wrong and you might change your mind but then change it back quickly when you relize its not that bad.

2.) the second scenario is I my mind just slipped for a few seconds but I didn't really meen it.

3.) the third scenario is I did meen it but wasn't really saying it to God was just perhaps saying it to myself.

4.) The fourth case and probably most likely scenario is that my mind just slipped and I didn't meen it and wasn't saying it to God' it was just a random meaningles thought.

So out of those scenarios which do you think would count as a valied promise.
Also if they do count as a promise how can I repent wouldn't they be binding like an oath or vow.
Also one more thing this doesn't really matter for me I,ve never said it' but I wondered when people say that they will do something or their be dammed does that count as an proper vow' say they became Christian later in life does that meen if they hadn't done what they said they would do would be unable to be saved or isn't it a valied vow because they didn't actually meen that literally it was just a figure of speech'what do you think?
thankyou for your time
chris

[cubanito]

This is no reproach to Marv, but saying to just "forget about it" is not helpful. For those not afflicted by OCD or other mental disorders, it is often difficult to understand that the person is trapped by malfunctioning brain chemistry and they just CAN'T "forget about it."

I would advise u that when u begin to obsess over wether or not an oath was made ect that you try to guide your focus to the work of Jesus. Even if u make and break oaths every other second, ALL your sins are nailed to the Cross. It matters not how oft you sin, God is greater. Slowly develop a new pattern. Every time u wonder if or not u made or broke an oath, confess ur uncertainty, confess ur ignorance, confess that u might have sinned, or not, and that u r so screwed up u can't even tell. Then remember that no matter what, u r forgiven already.

Perhaps by substituting the linear procedure of confession of ur ignorance and acceptance of forgivenss, u can more easily break out of the vicious cycle of wondering if or not a sin was commited.

There is no sin in confessing what is, or what is not a sin.

JR

[BigNorsk]

Well, I didn't mean just forget about it.

The problem seems to be the compulsion has to do with making promises or oath and then if somehow chris crossed some line, then he is going to be responsible to carry it out.

What I keep telling chris, but he doesn't seem to want to hear it is to take his eyes off himself, off what he might or might not have meant and turn to the cross and Jesus.

The idea that is running through his head is a false one to start with. Let's use and example. Let's say chris is mad with someone, he wants to hurt them, he starts to think don't promise to kill the person, don't promise to kill him, well due to his disorder, he will almost certainly think that he promises to kill that person even if only briefly.

Then he is going to stew on did I or didn't I really promise, am I or am I not required now to kill him.

Well, whether or not he promised is actually immaterial. God gives a clear indication in scriptures that his desire is not for chris to murder anyone.

Are we to think that God is sitting there just waiting for chris' disordered mind to think for an instant that he promises something so God can hold it against him?

That image doesn't really fit with Jesus on the cross does it?

And that's the point, instead of feeding the storm going on in his mind, chris should turn to the cross in faith and accept that whatever it is that he thought, that Jesus' sacrifice is more than sufficient to wipe out any sin, whether real or imagineds. And chris should be comforted and eventually strengthened by that.

How can one sit an obsess about a sin whether imagined or real that is not anymore because it is washed away with the blood of Jesus. It really is no more, nothing to consider, done away with, kaput.

I'm not interested in playing the game of is this sin, how about this, with chris, because that is only feeding the obsession, it solves nothing. Instead believing, putting one's faith in Jesus, that is the real solution. It doesn't much matter where the line is because Christs sacrifice is sufficient anyway. Focus on that instead of obsessing on what isn't even remembered clearly.

Marv

[chrisbritain]

Hello
Thankyou for the replys.
First off all I would like to say that I know that if you make an oath to murder somebody or something sinfull that you don't actually do it' that you cannot make an oath to do something sinfull.

What I would like to know though as I said in the private messages I sent you both which of the scenarios counts as a promise to God.

Also you said I could repent the promise but how can I repent it' if its a promise then shorly it's binding like an oath or vow and so I can't simply take it back.
Thankyou
Chris

[BigNorsk]

chris

You seem quite concerned with making lines, but I'm not sure why since you can't even remember what you thought so you wouldn't know which of those situations applied anyway. It would just be another thing to sit and worry whether or not you crossed that line.

The idea of an oath or even a promise is that it is a decision. You with your disorder are not capable of making an oath nor a promise through a quick mental thought. It is not a promise, it's a compulsion. You are mentally incapacitated by your disorder. Not responsible for your thoughts.

Your desire, was not to make a promise but your ocd ends up then producing a thought that is completely opposite of your desire. That's not a promise.

So quite thinking about this, it just makes your compulsion worse.

Marv

[cubanito]

Marv, couched in our mutual respect, I say this kindly. IF chris does have OCD, it is more that he CAN'T hear what u are saying, than he does not want to hear it. Yes, I realize this could be the opening salvo to another long discussion on Sovereignty/free will, but we are speaking to someone (chris) who has a disordered mind, a true pathology.

Chris, I've read all your emails here. I try to always readd all emails before jumping into a thread, I consider it the "proper" thing to do (occasionally on a very long thread I don't). Chris, I'm actually saying the same thing as Mear, just slightly different tone.

Look, let us say every thought is an iron-clad oath. Then you sin, confess it, then it is forgiven, end of problem. If a thought is NOT a promise, then there is no sin. If you confess what is not a sin, that confession is not a sin, and that obsession is not a sin, and so the end is the same: peace with God. If you do NOT confess, and it was not a sin, 0+0=0 and if you forget to forget what is a sin, or are ignorant of it being a sin, this too is forgiven, for only those sins commmited in knowledge are true sins. As Paul says: "Without Law, there is no transgression." and as Jesus says from the cross, "Forgive them for THEY KNOW NOT what they do." in contradistinction to what He said to the Pharisees: "You claim to know, therefore your sin remains."

Chris, your (our) ignorance, your contriteness and your willingness to be right with God is all that is needed for God to forgive you, on the basis of His Son's work.

So, again, if you obsess, channel your obsession's endpoint into thanking God for being forgiveness. While you can not help but obsess, I do know that in general, you can channel your obsession towards thanking God, rather than examining the problem... which is really no different than what Marv is saying, just served with relish rather than mustard.

Obsess on God's forgiveness, not on the question of what is to be forgiven. Much more productive, and pleasing to God.

JR

[BigNorsk]

Martin Luther was quite obsessive about his sins. He would literally confess for hours a day. His confessor more than once counciled Martin that there were people with real sins, not like his. But no matter how much his confessor tried to comfort him, there was only condemnation, he could not understand.

Then Martin had what would come to be known as his tower experience, in that he had a great revelation, the just shall live by faith. Faith, not sin was the key to forgiveness.

Martin went on to be so strengthened by this that it was he who counciled Melanchthon to let his sins be bold but let his faith be bolder still.

Your obsession grasps the sin, you are in the same position Martin Luther was. Trapped by sin, or at least the possibility of sin. Worried about the law and it's condemnation. But the just don't live by sinlessness they live by faith, and it is in faith that you turn to God and can find release from this.

Now I don't know that your obsession is going to go away. What faith can give you is a release from it and the condemnation and worry that is trapping you.

Luther's words are strong and I hope you can grasp them.


If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

[chrisbritain]

Hello
Martin Luther probably had ocd' I just read an article about ocd and it mentioned him it sounds as if he had it.

Anyway some of it is to do with my ocd when I have compulsions to say I,ll do something thats most likely part of my ocd' the one i,m worried about was less of a compulsion and more of a day dreamy thought so I don't think we should blame the ocd for that one' alot of them we probably can but I,m not to sure about that one.
As I said I was thinking about oaths alot and it probably entered my head because of that but I don't think that one was a compulsion.

As I said I don't think its likely that I ment it its more likely just a thought that I didn't meen' but I still would be grateful if you could tell me which ones of the scenarios you think(if any) counts as a promise and also if it does count as a promise how can I take it back isn't it binding like an oath please answer that question.

Also if a non-Christian or a careless Christian says (as people do )that their do something or their be dammed and they don't do it do they loose their salvation or doesn't that count as a vow because they didn't meen the their be dammed part literaly' its just a figure of speech?
Thankyou
chris

[BigNorsk]

Chris,

You seem to keep wanting to make a person's salvation a matter of law and not faith.

I don't see anything in the bible that saying or thinking something like you keep talking about causes a person to lose their salvation and be damned. We are saved by faith, not by being sinless, not by never making an oath and not by breaking an oath. We are saved through faith solely on the merits and for the sake of Jesus.

So your repeated question doesn't make any sense at all to me.

The question should be in which of those scenarios would you cease to believe. In which of them would you cease to have faith? None of them say anything about faith. So non of them provide anything pertinent to your eternal status.

If your salvation depends on never having thoughts like you have, then it isn't about Jesus and his perfection, it becomes about chris, and whether or not he has merited salvation. Now that's typical of a lot of religions, but it's not christianity. So the real question is, where is your faith? If you do not have faith, then you were not saved before the thought. If you have faith then you are saved after the thought. The thought does not change your status. The thought is ultimately not the important thing. Jesus is what is important, faith in Jesus is important, God's grace is important.

Instead of looking at yourself and your thoughts, turn to Jesus and his work on the cross and think of those things.

Marv

[chrisbritain]

Hello

I'm aware that salvartion comes through faith but if I make a promise to God that I won't something or I,ll be dammed and I do it then wouldn't that make me loose it because I,ve promised that.
I havn't broken it yet but I just wondered if you could tell me wich of those scenarios counts as a promise.
Like I said its very unlikely that I ment it its more likely it was just somethng I thought that ddin't meen anything.

Also if people say that their do something or their be dammed if they don't do it have they made a vow to God and so loose their salvation? Or don't they because they don't meen that part literally?

One more thing the other day I thought the words in my head that I vow to do something or I,ll be dammed does that count as a vow I actually did what I said I would do so it doesn't matter' again I didn't meen it the words just popped into my head but because I think about it all the time but I didn't meen it though' it wasn't causes directly by my dissoreder but certainky happended because I think about it all the time which is propbably to do with my dissorder.

[chrisbritain]

By the way it was because I thought the word I vow wich made me think it might be more valied.

[BigNorsk]

Well Chris, I think that I've made it pretty clear that I don't think you could really make a vow, a promise in your condition. But I don't really know. Maybe you did, only God knows.

Now making a vow woud be a violation of the law in itself. We are told not to make oaths.

And if you make a vow or promise to God and don't fulfill it, that can be sin too, as can keeping a vow. If you think you might have made a promise and keeping it is not sin, then keep it. But realize that in calling down the damnation of God upon yourself, well that's a usurping of God's position. Of that, you do indeed need to repent. God doesn't leave our salvation to the fallible impulses of man, our salvation rests with Jesus, with the gospel promises. You are simply doing what anyone who attempts to live by the law does, worrying and fretting about the details. Did I use enough water to wash my hands, is my robe long enough, did I cut or not cut my hair properly, did I possibly say something wrong. Living under the law is guaranteed to disappoint. There is no forgiveness nor assurance from the law, unless you want to say the assurance of defeat.

But believers are not under the condemnation of the law. It is really important that you grasp that. As the fourth chapter of Hebrews so wonderfully summarizes, you need to enter that rest. And while there is no hiding from God, we do not need to, instead believers go to Christ and receive mercy.

Heb 4:10-16 ESV for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. (11) Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. (12) For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (13) And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. (14) Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. (15) For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. (16) Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

As long as you do not enter that rest, do not rest from your works. You will be falling into disobedience. By resting from your works, by turning to the cross and Jesus you will be strenghtened. If your thoughts reveal anything, it is that you are not resting in Jesus but trying to rely on yourself.

Realize this, that what you are talking is law here, we are talking the condemnation, the call to repentance, the display that we are sinful creatures in need of salvation, all law.

Such is the law, and you can worry and worry about the details. Did you violate it, what detail did you violate, and so on.

I would think it's time for you to give up Chris. God's law doesn't save, do you think following laws thought up by Chris will somehow be superior to God's law? See what you continue to do is to try and use the law to fix this. You keep wondering what your status under the law is, how about this senario, how about that one.

I don't really care too much about the details Chris because the answer is always the same. You are under condemnation by the law. That's always the outcome, always the case. Except in one.

That one is, if you receive the forgiveness of the gospel. You have not received that or you wouldn't be still worrying about this. None of those law scenarios are stronger than thegospel, none of them decide whether or not you are saved. The reception or the rejection of the gospel does that.

It seems to me in this thread Chris, that you just brush off the gospel, saying sure you know that, but then you go right back to wondering about the law. Why would someone who knows the gospel do that? Do you enjoy condemnation? Do you not see how saying that making a vow and asking God to damn you if you do not and then thinking that for the rest of your life if you do not keep that vow you will be condemned to hell is just life under the law? Chris' law. God gave us the gospel to save us, it's not a fake. It offers real forgiveness, it really does save us. Salvation isn't something you lose when you sin. That wouldn't be good news, no gospel at all.

You don't need to exactly know your sin in order to receive forgiveness either. You don't need to know which if any of those scenarios perfectly applies to you this time. If such perfect knowledge was necessary, then the law is superior to the gospel. If such knowledge was necessary then we are all doomed, it's all just a sham, Jesus didn't save anyone, because salvation would still depend on man.

I hope you now understand.

Marv

[chrisbritain]

Ok I think I understand what your saying.
Your saying that I can't say to God I will do this or I,ll be dammed' that isn't up to me its up tp God?
So even if I did meen it for those few seconds(which is as I keep saying unlikely) then it wouldn't be binding because I can't make that decision.

Another thing I thought I would mention.
Now as I said I think about vows alot' alot of the time I worried because I can't stop thinking the words I,ll be dammed' but sometimes I will think the words I vow without that part.
Now as I said sometimes its probably my ocd causing it because sometimes i,m trying to stop myself from sying it in my head and I cant' sometimes it just pops into my head and I don't try to stop it because I don't relize in time and sometimes I think it relize I,m about to think it but don't stop it because I get muddled up or something.
I NEVER think it and meen to make a promise.
So do any of those count as a promise or do promises only count if' as you said before' they are a decision not something you thought but didn't meen.
As I said I am aware you said these things must be a decision the reason I worried was because I thought the words I vow as apposed to just thinking I,ll do that' but one thing I was thinking that possibly I,m just kind of treating it as if its magic words or something because say somebody made a vow to do something and somebody quoted them as in they said you said I vow to do whatever they said 'then knowbody would say that person had made a vow even though they had said the words I vow to do whatever because they were just quoting somebody else.
Thankyou
Chris

[BigNorsk]

We are told through God's word, the Bible, that if you believe, that is, have faith in Jesus, you will be saved. I don't know anything that says scratch that out of the Bible if you have thoughts racing through your mind.

Our sinfulness is ultimately not what saves or condemns us. Instead it is faith in the saving works of Jesus. Normally, our thoughts and actions reflect our true beliefs. But it does sound to me like you have complusive thoughts concerning vows and oaths. As you say you don't want to even do any such thing and yet the thoughts keep coming. It's possible that you might be like a person trying to diet who just sits and thinks don't eat don't eat and so will fail because sitting thinking about food is not the way to eat less it results in eating more. And so I would encourage you not to even sit and fight with yourself over don't think about oaths, don't think about oaths. Because that does make you think about oaths.

Instead have something else to do. A distraction. Read something. A little New Testament works well and can fit in your pocket, but even something else would work. Video games are real good at taking our attention but I would kind of fear just replacing one compulsion with another. A crossword puzzle or sudoku would work well, it gets you thinking about other things.

Our thoughts, our brain, is much like our muscles. When we think a particular thing, it's like exercising our brain, the brain responds and gets better and better at doing that, much like a muscle will strengthen in response to lifting weights. What you want to do is quit exercising that path and turn that particular part of your brain into a couch potatoe. Right now, it's really strong, and ready to just go and go. You want that to atropy. And the way to do that is not to think those things. It will take time, but if you are faithful at breaking your thoughts string about oaths, over time, you will find it occurring less and less and being easier to break.

As long as you just sit and think and worry about this you are being controlled by it. You are called to freedom not a heavy yoke where a quick thought and it's all over, you are damned forever.

God knows your thoughts and it's certainly possible to promise without verbally saying things. But God understands how your mind is racing and going back to this compulsion over and over. And he understands how you really have no desire to make an oath or promise. He doesn't just hear that one little moment of thought he knows them all. He knows your problems better than you do.

A similar thing happens with some older people. It's not unusual for some of the people in a nursing home to say some horrible curses. And it's out of character for them, it's due to a degeneration of their mind. Do you think God holds them to those curses? I sure don't. It's a case where what is coming out of their mouth is not a reflection of their heart, it is caused by illness. Tourette's syndrom can also cause it. Sometimes, medication causes it. It's got a fancy name, involuntary coprolalia. It's quite different for a person who cannot control his cursing compared to someone who does it voluntarily. God knows whether or not it is a controlled behavior or not.

That's not quite the same, but seems to me to be related to what's going on in your mind. It's not a normal thing to be so gripped by thoughts like you describe.

It's quite possible if you are on any meds that they could be inducing this, or, indeed it is quite possible it could be controlled with a med. But controlling a compulsive thought hasn't been a real priority of medical science. Often, some of the anti-anxiety meds can have an effect.

http://personal.boo.net/~dpfago/obsessions.htm

really gives a good summary, much bettter than I am capable of, on the steps that many find very helpful with compulsive thoughts, and it references the book it is based on. You might find the book itself to be helpful.

The major thing to realize is that these thoughts are really a disorder, and they reflect the disorder, not you. They really do not merit all your concern, for the very reason that they do not reflect your heart but are in opposition to it.

God is not a cruel God waiting for you to slip up in your thoughts for a moment so that he can condemn you for all eternity. That's not a God that was and is willing to die for your sins, not for his. Be comforted by knowing that he is God, and so your salvation depends on God, not on you. It's the solus Christos of the reformation.

People were like you. Terrified that they had maybe done something wrong or not done enough to be saved. They paid their money to the church, they did all sorts of things, pilgramages, buying of relics, praying to all sorts of saints, going to confessin over and over. The whole concern being that maybe they had done or not done one little thing and so be doomed. The reformation said wait, God's saving grace is not a trinket to extort people. It is a free gift. Jesus paid our sins. He and he alone saves us, we don't work for it we don't even cooperate in that salvation. Grace isn't just a new law where we must confess every single thing, we must change ourselves and become free of sin, we must do thing after thing or we are doomed. No, grace is the undeserved love from God. We receive that grace through faith, not through works.

And people thought the keys of heaven were some powers that God gave to arbitrary human beings so one person could forgive or condemn another. Salvation depended not on God, but on pleasing some other person who would use his special power of forgiveness.

No, that's not how God did it. The keys are the two basic divisions of scripture. The law binds, the gospel looses. You can perfectly keep the law in all things but one, and if you break it just once, you are bound, there is no ability of the law to loose you from your sin. Loosing you from your sin comes from the gospel. Not from works of law.

Go to that link on obsessions. Follow what it says. Receive the gospel forgiveness that is so much greater than your racing thoughts.

Marv

[chrisbritain]

So your saying that as long as I didn't meen it it doesn't matter if I think a thought it for a few seconds.
If I think i,ll do something or i,ll be dammed but I don't really meen it it doesn't matter that I thought it.
Even if I said the words I vow in my mind that doesn't matter either?

One more thing a while back I said to God in my mind that I would do something(I didn't say I,ll be dammed)
Now the difference this time was I actually thought about it first but I didn't really meen it and I don't know why I said it it could have been because of my ocd' does that count as a promise?

[BigNorsk]

Fundamentally, I'm saying your satus doesn't depend on whether or not you meant it. It depends on whether you have faith. King David had a man murdered, and we know that murderers are not in heaven, yet it's quite clear that King David was saved. How is that? It is because sins are forgiven through faith. David was not ultimately lost due to his sin. He was ultimately saved by God's grace. Neither would you be lost due to any such thoughts, if you are lost, it is because you do not have faith. In most people calling down God's damnation upon themselves would be symptom of disbelief or lack of faith, but in your case it sounds like it is a symptom of a mental disorder.

Even if you did not believe the solution is the same, faith in the gospel of Jesus.

Put your concerns about these thoughts aside, your eternal security is not resting on them. They are unimportant things that simply are syimptoms of an underlying disorder.

Did you read that link in my last post?

I would recommend you do and you work at putting it into practice.

You are stuck on unuseful thinking. Rather than that, if you are going to ask questions of yourself, I would suggest you ask these questions.

Do you believe that man, including you, is a sinner, and the normal consequence of sin is eternal damnation?

Do you believe Jesus Christ who is fully God and fully man, died for your sins? That is that Jesus took upon himself the consequences of your sins.

Do you believe Jesus Christ rose from the grave and now is in heaven?

Do you believe the promises of Jesus that he would hear your prayers and be the mediator for you between you and God?

Do you believe the bible?

Those are useful questions. I pray you can answer them all affirmatively.

Marv

[chrisbritain]

Ok right so even if I did meen it even if made a promise to God that I would do something and if I don't send me to Hell as long as I repent it its ok it can be forgiven.
I,m abit confused though are you saying if I ment it it may have counted as a promise I should try to keep it' but that I can't call damnation on myslef like that?
Chris

[BigNorsk]

God tells us not to take oaths but simply to let our noes be no and our yeses be yes.

Now normally, I would tell a person if they are in the position that they believe they might have made a promise that if keeping it is not sinful to just go ahead and let their yes be yes and do it.

I'm concerned though Chris that to tell you that is just putting you right back into the position of letting your disorder control your life. I think putting it in charge of your life to be actually counterproductive. You specifically, I would recommend you completely ignore those thoughts. Giving them any control, any value is just feeding the disorder.

Marv

[BigNorsk]

Notice the example of Elijah.

1Ki 19:4 NET while he went a day's journey into the desert. He went and sat down under a shrub5 and asked the LORD to take his life:6 "I've had enough! Now, O LORD, take my life. After all, I'm no better than my ancestors."7

He wanted God to kill him. God did not. Elijah never did die. Even Elijah did not have God as a puppet on a string. You certainly do not either. You can tell God to damn you but that's not God's plan, God isn't on the end of little string you pull to make him dance what you want him to dance.

Marv

[cubanito]

I can not improve on anything Marv has said.

Thank u Marv for thatbit about Elijah praying to die, and not getting his wish. I had never noticed, but it is quite interesting.

JR

[chrisbritain]

Ok I think we need to try to make this as simple as possible' so if you could answer the points as simply as possible.
One thing I should mention first is yes you are right I don't think I really had much faith when I started worrying about this so if I did think I will do this or I,ll be dammed then I probably didn't think it would count as a promise and also I didn't have much faith that God was there' so I probably didn't meen it' now my faith is stronger and I occationaly get the words I vow do this pop into my head sometimes uncontrolably wich could be due to my dissorder' I don't think I ever say to God I will do something intentially.
Now I,m going to go through the points.
1.) you are saying that if I thought in my mind God I won't do this if I don't I,ll be dammed then even if I ment it' (which is very unlikely and I'm thinking more clearer I would never meen it if I thought about it the only way I could ever meen it is if I day dreamed and wasn't really thinking what I was thinking in wich case I don't know even then if you could say I really ment it' I think I have been obsesively worrying about whether I ment it whereas really its quite obvious that I wouldn't have' the reason I was worrying was although it doesn't fill like I meen it I was worried I ment it sub-conciencly)) and I did what I said I wouldn't do then I don't loose my salvation because it can't be lost in that way' I just repent it and its forgiven.
The reason I thought it would be is because I thought the expression came from the olden days when people would ake a vow and say if I don't do this i,ll be dammed.

2.) if the words I vow to do this pop into my head and I don't meen them does that count as a vow.
These are mostl likely caused directly or indirectly by my dissorder' alot of the time when I think I won't do something they just come into my head e.g. say I was flicking through the tv channels and I decided no I won't watch that sometimes the words I vow to watch that will just come into my head. Its propbably because I keep thinking about it that that happens so does that count as a vow?

3.) some time ago I was on a train and I said to God in my mind I wouldn't do something' (nothing sinfull) I didn't meen it I don't think and I don't think I had alot of faith then but I did think about it breifly and still decide to do it but I deffinately didn't meen it' I don't really know why I did it' it was possibly done because of my ocd but i,m not to sure.

If you could address those points I would be grateful.
Chris

[chrisbritain]

Marv
I must make one thing clear wich I havn't said before.
I do not feel any desire to go to Hell' lets get that straight.
Alot of the time I worry because' I,m worried that sub-conciencely I wanted to because before' everytime I would do something I would get a kind of feeling I use to think it was a compulsion to make a promise to god but I don't think it was any more' its probably because I thought of promises all the time and so I just got this feeling evertime.
Anyway every time I use to get this feeling I use to go no oath no oath to myself in my head' once I didn't do it properly and I got this idea in my head that I sub-conciencly wanted to make an oath.
So thats why I get so worried about whether I meen it when I think it because I was thinking well if its just a thought that I odn't really meen then it doesn't matter God will know its just a slip' but if I wanted to sub-conciencly then that would meen I actually ment it for a few seconds wich made me think it would count as a promise.
Chris

[BigNorsk]

I never for a moment thought you actually desired to go to hell. More importantly, you can be sure that God didn't either.

Instead of "no oath, no oath..." I would suggestion. "Thank you Lord, praise you Jesus" or better "Our Father, who art in heaven..." Sing it if you prefer. And other hymns are good too. Or read the Bible. Or just get busy and forget those thoughts of disorder.

Marv