Do you believe in once saved, always saved?

[PaladinGirl]

Do you believe in once saved, always saved? :confused:

[PaladinGirl]

I do believe in once saved, always saved.

[Willo]

I believe in Perseverance of the Saints

[PaladinGirl]

I believe in Perseverance of the Saints
Is that the same thing as once saved, always saved? :confused:

[Tony Merritt]

Do you believe in once saved, always saved? :confused:
Hey Paladin girl. Yes I do believe that once you are saved...you are always saved.




Tony M

[Canuckmom]

I too believe in the final perserverance of the saints. The "once saved always saved" reminds me too much of those that claim to have been saved and then don't live accordingly. Those that are truly saved will live a holy life: 1John 1:3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep his commandments. Not in a legalistic way but because we love Him.

[PaladinGirl]

I'm glad to see that most people do believe in once saved always saved among Baptists.

[Vambram]

I too believe in the final perserverance of the saints. The "once saved always saved" reminds me too much of those that claim to have been saved and then don't live accordingly. Those that are truly saved will live a holy life: 1John 1:3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep his commandments. Not in a legalistic way but because we love Him.

:amen: :thumbsup:
I voted yes on this poll, also; just like I did with your poll on the Fundamentalist churches forums.

[TwistTim]

As long as the Person in Question is Truly saved by Grace though faith, by Repenting of their sins and trusting in Jesus then yes, OSAS, other wise a false convert is not saved at all... either you are saved and have Eternal Security or your not saved and you don't.

[Sam48]

I believe that even after people 'were' saved, they can go the wrong way. So no once saved doesn't mean always saved.

[MbiaJc]

I believe that even after people 'were' saved, they can go the wrong way. So no once saved doesn't mean always saved.

Can you be unborn from your parents?????????????

Neither can you be unborn from God....

[Sam48]

Can you be unborn from your parents?????????????

Neither can you be unborn from God....

Huh? Ow I get it.... yea you gotta point. :thumbsup: Makes me doubt my own point of view.

[Vambram]

Salvation

These notes I got from my study Bible concerning the doctrine of Salvation.

The Hebrew and Greek words for "salvation" imply the ideas of deliverance, safety, preservation, healing, and soundness. "Salvation" is the great inclusive word of the Gospel, gathering into itself all the redemptive acts and processes: as justification, redemption, grace, propitiation, forgiveness, imputation, sanctification, and glorification.

Salvation is in Three Tenses

1. The Christian has been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin, and is safe. see Luke 7:50; 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; Ephesians 2:5-8; and 2 Timothy 1:9.

2. The Christian is being saved from the habit, the dominion, and the power of sin. Please see Rom.6:14, 8:2; 2 Cor.3:18; Gal.2:19-20; Philippians 1:19, 2:12-13; 2 Thess.2:13

3. The Christian will be saved at the Lord's Return from all of the bodily infirmities that are the result of Sin and God's Curse upon the sinful world (Rom.8:18-23; 1 Cor.15:42-44), and will be brought into entire conformity with the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom.13:11; Heb.10:36; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 3:2).

Salvation is by grace through faith, is a free gift and wholly without works (Rom.3:27-28, 4:1-8, 6:23; Eph.2:8).
The divine order is :: first salvation, then works. (Eph.2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8).


:groupray:

[Willo]

Can you be unborn from your parents?????????????

Neither can you be unborn from God....

While I hold to eternal salvation, I do find that line of reasoning as lacking. Since initially we are all children of Satan and children of wrath. So to follow the logic presented one could contend that once born naturally you cannot be saved.

[Willo]

Is that the same thing as once saved, always saved? :confused:

Both teach eternal security, however, I shy away from OSAS due to the fact so many false converts use that doctrine to say that they are saved even though they are living in a lifestyle of sin.

Chapter 17, of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith gives a good overview of what perseverance of the Saints is:

CHAPTER 17; OF THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

Paragraph 1. Those whom God has accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, from which source he still begets and nourishes in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;1 and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them,2 yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraved upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.3


1 John 10:28,29; Phil. 1:6; 2 Tim. 2:19; 1 John 2:19
2 Ps. 89:31,32; 1 Cor. 11:32
3 Mal. 3:6


Paragraph 2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election,4 flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him,5 the oath of God,6 the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them,7 and the nature of the covenant of grace;8 from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.


4 Rom. 8:30, 9:11,16
5 Rom. 5:9, 10; John 14:19
6 Heb. 6:17,18
7 1 John 3:9
8 Jer. 32:40


Paragraph 3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein,9 whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit,10 come to have their graces and comforts impaired,11 have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,12 hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,13 yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.14


9 Matt. 26:70,72,74
10 Isa. 64:5,9; Eph. 4:30
11 Ps. 51:10,12
12 Ps. 32:3,4
13 2 Sam. 12:14
14 Luke 22:32,61,62

[edb19]

Agree 100% Willo.

True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with. God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”
Greg Johnson

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

“They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.” —Westminster Confession of Faith 17.1, drafted by the Westminster Assembly at the request of the British Parliament 1643-47

[quest4KJV]

I believe once saved always saved also...however, a question comes to my mind as to the individual who gives up his belief in Christ and abandons his/her Christian faith for, say, Islam or even atheism.

[TwistTim]

Ah, the good old False convert Question. If someone is truly saved, and truly a Christian he or she would never give that up for anything, not even for humanly love, they were never truly saved so they can't be eternally secured.

[edb19]

Ah, the good old False convert Question. If someone is truly saved, and truly a Christian he or she would never give that up for anything, not even for humanly love, they were never truly saved so they can't be eternally secured.

yeppers - no one who is truly converted, truly regenerate would ever walk away from God

[spiritwarrior37]

Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I believe it is an ongoing process. Teh word saved used here is traslated as you were saved, you are saved, and you must continue to be saved. Do I believe you can be born again only one time? Yes. From that point on if you sin you just ask forgiveness of that sin. But this is just my two cents worth.

[PaladinGirl]

yeppers - no one who is truly converted, truly regenerate would ever walk away from God
I don't believe this. I was truly saved 11 years ago and I did walk away from God a few times. It can be done and it is called backsliding.

[Willo]

I don't believe this. I was truly saved 11 years ago and I did walk away from God a few times. It can be done and it is called backsliding.

The Scripture makes it clear that a person who is truly saved would never walk away.


"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." - 1 John 2:19

If you walked away from God, then I would point out that the Scripture says you were never in the faith.

[Vambram]

The Scripture makes it clear that a person who is truly saved would never walk away.


"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." - 1 John 2:19

If you walked away from God, then I would point out that the Scripture says you were never in the faith.


Well, that would really depend on just exactly what a person means when they said that they walked away from God. Were they backslidding and falling to the temptations of sin, and were their beliefs and assurances towards God and salvation falling into areas of doubt? OR, was the person in a point in their life where they were actually and actively denying the truths of God and the salvation which we receive through the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ?
:groupray:

[holyrokker]

I do not think that OSAS is a valid Biblical doctrine.

[Andy Broadley]

No

Salvation requires an ongoing relationship with God

[MbiaJc]

While I hold to eternal salvation, I do find that line of reasoning as lacking. Since initially we are all children of Satan and children of wrath. So to follow the logic presented one could contend that once born naturally you cannot be saved.

Flaud reasoning Willo, we are born into sin not sinners. No where does the bible say we are born to satin, that I know of. Jesus only talked about two biths. The natural(of water), and the Spirtual (of the Spirit). To our earthly parents then to our heavenly parents. Of which neither can re reversed.

[MbiaJc]

The Scripture makes it clear that a person who is truly saved would never walk away.


"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." - 1 John 2:19

If you walked away from God, then I would point out that theo Scripture says you were never in the faith.

What the scriptures make plains is we that are saved will never go back to unbelief. We sin and come short of the glory of God each day. That doesn't mean we have walked away from God. It just means we are disobent stiff neck chidren.

[Willo]

Flaud reasoning Willo, we are born into sin not sinners. No where does the bible say we are born to satin, that I know of. Jesus only talked about two biths. The natural(of water), and the Spirtual (of the Spirit). To our earthly parents then to our heavenly parents. Of which neither can re reversed.

Jesus taught that some were sons of the evil one:

"The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, " - Matthew 13:38

"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. " - John 8:44

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. " - Ephesians 2:1-3

"By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. " - 1 John 3:10

The Scripture paints a clear picture that those who aren't elected in Christ are Children of the evil one.

[Willo]

What the scriptures make plains is we that are saved will never go back to unbelief. We sin and come short of the glory of God each day. That doesn't mean we have walked away from God. It just means we are disobent stiff neck chidren.

If we walk away from Christ, it shows that we aren't truly saved, but rather as it says in 1 John it shows that we are of the devil.

[DeaconDean]

Let me add this, this is an article I wrote a few years back:

Once Saved, Always Saved

But is it Biblical?


Not very many doctrines receive as much debate as this one does. Many adhere to it, others do not. There are a few others that will provoke debates even among long time Christians. The Rapture, Millennialism (pre, post, and al) just to mane a few. As for me, I believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved. I was taught this from an early age in church. And for many years I just accepted it as true. You know, what you learn at an early age tends to stick with you through life. I started seminary school and a whole new world opened up to me. I’ve got a thirst for knowledge that seems to be unquenchable. I began to research, to investigate, to seek enlightenment, regarding church doctrines and what we come to accept and believe. I have read some of the early church doctrines and early versions of Systematic Theology. I wanted to why we believe what we believe. I have studied such authors as: John Gill’s “Body of Practical Divinity,” The Complete Works of Jonathan Edwards, “Theology Proper” by Charles Hodge, “Institutes of Christian Religion” by John Calvin, “Abstract of Systematic Theology” by James Petigru Boyce, “Manual of Theology” by John L. Dagg, “Introduction to Christian Doctrine” by Millard Erickson, The Complete works of Arthur W. Pink. And just to balance things out, I’ve even read Charles Finney's 1851 Lectures on Systematic Theology (http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/Systematic.Theology.1.html), and the Theology of Karl Barth (http://www.theology21.org/christianbook/karl_barth.htm), along with The Works of James Arminius (http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius.htm).

You see, I felt a need to see how theology has developed from the earliest days, up to the present time. I have even studied a lot of Augustine’s writings. While I do not agree with all of Augustine’s writings, I have been able to pick bits and pieces of useful information from him, he does have his good points. I have studied some of the Confessions of Faith, and in my humble opinion, The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 to 1649 and The Baptist Faith and Message of 1963 are the best ones. But that’s neither here nor there. Before I get into this subject, I wanted to see how this idea developed. So I went and did research and some serious studying on the subject, I wanted to make sure that what I propose is right and biblical. I studied a lot of scripture while doing this, and decided on one single passage which I believe supports my position.

Before we dive in, I feel you should know at least some other views on this subject and their position:

Classic Arminianism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; The believer who loses his faith is damned.

Antinomianism: One need not persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those who lose their faith are saved because they once believed.; The believer who loses his faith is saved.

Classic Calvinism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God’s gift.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with.; God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

Now lets look at the above table for just a minute. Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But where both of these views are wrong, is in assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).

Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to do great things for the Lord! It is my opinion that the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.

One argument against this used by the Arminians is: “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” Eze. 18:24. John Gill gives this answer:

“Such a sense of the words is contrary to the scope and design of the whole chapter, which not at all concerns the perseverance or apostasy of saints, and neither their salvation nor damnation; but the sole view of it is to vindicate the justice of God, from a charge of punishing the Jews, not for their own sins, but the sins of their fathers, and of injustice and inequality in his providential dealings with them, and has nothing to do with the spiritual and eternal affairs of men.”1 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000001)

The whole context wholly and solely regards the house of Israel, and the land of Israel, and the conduct of the people of Israel in it. In applying that to the saints in particular, which relates to the Jewish church and nation only, as distinguishable from all other people, and so stands self-condemned. Millions of instances of this kind will never enervate the doctrine of the saints perseverance; let it be proved if it can, that any one that has been made righteous by the obedience of Christ, and has been truly and inwardly sanctified by the Spirit and grace of God, ever so fell away, as everlastingly to perish; let this be proved and we have done: As for a man’s own righteousness and outward acts of holiness, we allow a man may turn from them and he lost, but not from the righteousness of Christ, which is everlasting, nor from an inward principle of grace and holiness, which ever abides.

Another argument is: "one who is endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, may nevertheless so fall from God, as to perish everlastingly." In proof of which is produced, 1 Timothy 1:19, 20, holding faith and a good conscience, which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck, of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander. It does not appear that these men ever had their hearts purified by faith; this should be first proved, before they are produced as instances of the apostasy of real saints; the contrary appears in their characters; they were ungodly men, and were never otherwise for any thing that is said of them; and after their profession of religion, they increased and proceeded to more ungodliness; they were vain-babblers, opposers of the doctrines of the gospel, and blasphemers of it, and were never upon the foundation that stands sure, or were known by the Lord as his, (see 1 Tim 1:20 and 2 Tim. 2:16, 19; 4:14, 15).2 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000002)

Arthur W. Pink says: “This terrible sin is not committed by a mere professor, for he has nothing to fall away from, save an empty name.”3 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000003)

Nor is it clear from the text, that they ever had a good conscience, but rather that they never had one; putting it away does not necessarily suppose they had it, but rather that they had it not, they rejecting it with dislike; as the Jews who never had the gospel are said to put it away; when they contradicted, blasphemed and rejected it, the apostle says, ye put it from you, απωθεισθε,the same word that is here used; ye rejected it, cast it from you, and would not receive it, so here; had these persons ever had a good conscience, it would rather have been said, which some having put out of them; but they never had it; when it was proposed to them, as the Christian religion proposes that a man should exercise a good conscience, they disliked it, and put it away, and would not attend to it, and chose rather to drop the faith they professed, as being contrary to their evil consciences and practices; besides, persons may have a good conscience in some sense, and as it is shews itself by an external behavior among men, which does not arise from an heart purified by faith; the apostle had such an one before he had faith in Christ, Acts23:1. though it does not seem as if these men had ever such an one.

The faith they made shipwreck of, is not the grace of faith, which it does not appear they ever had, but the doctrine of faith, the Gospel; περι τηv πιστεωv , concerning the faith, is a phrase that is never used but of the doctrine of faith, see Acts. 24:24; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 3:8. This is the faith they made shipwreck of, denied and destroyed, or contradicted and blasphemed, as it is explained in the next verse; and the particular doctrine of faith they made shipwreck of. Men may profess the doctrine of faith and fall from it; but this is no instance of a man’s having true faith which purifies the heart, and falling from God so as to perish.

Another objection is: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6) John Gill says:

“There is nothing in the characters of these persons which shew them to be true believers;there is nothing said of their believing in Christ, or that necessarily implies it; there is nothing said that is peculiar to true believers; they are not said to be regenerated by the Spirit of God, called by the grace of God, or sanctified, or justified, or adopted, or heirs of God, and meet for the inheritance, or sealed by the Holy Ghost, or any thing of that kind.”4 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000004)

The following section is taken from Arthur W. Pink’s Exposition of Hebrews:

“Apostasy from Christ was a step more easy and natural to a Jewish than to a Gentile believer, because the way was always open and inviting them, as men, to return to those associations which once carried with them the outward sanctification of Jehovah’s name, and which only the power of grace had enabled them to renounce. When heavenly realities became inoperative in their souls, the visible image was before them still, and here was the danger of their giving it the homage of their souls. If there were not an habitual exercise of their spiritual senses, the power of discernment could not remain: they would call evil good, and good evil. The ignorance which springs from spiritual neglect begins its own punishment of apathetic dullness on the once clear mind, and robs the spirit of its power to detect the wily methods of the Devil. It is in the presence of God alone that the Christian can exert his spiritual energies with effect. Abiding in Christ, maintains us in that presence. A more unhappy error cannot befall a believer than to separate, in the habit of his mind, acquired knowledge from the living Christ. Faith dies at once when separated from its object. Knowledge indeed is precious, but the knowledge of God is a progressive thing (Col. 1:10), whose end is not obtained this side of the glory (1 Cor. 8:2).”5 (http://us.f344.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Saved%20Mail&MsgId=3802_32768_14569_1485_28248_0_9267_75597_2251042690&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=72094&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=1&view=a&head=b&ViewAttach=1&Idx=35#02000005)

Continued...

[DeaconDean]

A clear and growing faith, in heavenly things was needed to preserve Jewish Christians from relapse. To return to Judaism was to give up Christ, who had left their house ‘desolate’ (Matthew 23:38). It should be pointed out, however, that it is just as easy, and the attraction is just as real, for a Gentile Christian to return to that world out of which the Lord has called him, as it was for a Jewish Christian to go back again to Judaism.

In verse 4, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened" the apostle continues the digression which he began at Hebrews 5:11. The parenthesis has two divisions: the first, Hebrews 5:11-14 is reprehensible; the second, Hebrews 6:1-20 is hortatory. In chapter 6 he exhorts the Hebrews unto two duties: to progress in the Christian course (verses 1-11); to persevere therein (verses 12-20). The first exhortation is proposed in verses 1,2 and qualified in verse 3. The motive to obedience is drawn from the danger of apostasy (verses 4-6). The opening "For" of verse 4 intimates the close connection of our present passage with that which immediately precedes. It draws a conclusion from what the apostle had been saying in Hebrews 5:11-14. It amplifies the "if" in verse 3. It points a most solemn warning against their continuance in their present sloth.

Three things claim our careful attention in coming closer to our passage: the persons here spoken of, the sin they commit, the doom pronounced upon them. In considering the persons spoken of it is of first importance to note that the apostle does not say, "us who were once enlightened", nor even "you", instead, he says "those". In sharp contrast from them, he says to the Hebrews, "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you".

It is scarcely accurate to designate as "mere professors" those described in verses 4,5. They were a class who had enjoyed great privileges, beyond any such as now accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Those here portrayed are said to have had five advantages, which is in contrast from the six things enumerated in verses 1, 2, which things belong to man in the flesh, under Judaism. Five is the number of grace, and the blessings here mentioned pertain to the Christian dispensation. Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God. First, they had been "enlightened". The Sun of righteousness had shone with healing in His wings, and, as Matthew 4:16 says, "The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up". Unlike the heathen, whom Christ, in the days of His flesh, visited not, those who came under the sound of His voice were wondrously and gloriously illumined.

The Hebrews had accepted the gospel of the once crucified and now glorified Redeemer, who sent down from heaven the Spirit, a sign of His exaltation, and a pledge of the future inheritance. Having thus entered into the sphere of new covenant manifestation, any one who willfully abandoned it could only relapse into that phase of Judaism which crucified the Lord Jesus. There was no other alternative for them, but either to go on to the full knowledge of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and to the believer’s acceptance and worship through the Mediator in the sanctuary above, or fall back into the attitude, not of the godly Israelites before Pentecost, such as John the Baptist and those who waited for the promised redemption, nor even into the condition of those for whom the Savior prayed, ‘for they know not what they do’; but into a state of willful conscious enmity against Christ, and the sin of rejecting Him, and putting Him to an open shame" (Adolph Sophir)

Now I don’t believe that a true believer can fall into apostasy either. The stress is on “true believers.” And the people spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6 were not true believers.

First, the Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56. Those here in view had had an acquaintance with the Gospel, as to gain such a measure of its blessedness as to greatly aggravate their sin and doom. An illustration of this is found in Matthew 13:20, 21.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates.

Fourth, "And have tasted the good Word of God". "I understand by this expression the promise of God respecting the Messiah, the sum and substance of all. It deserves notice that this promise is by way of eminence termed by Jeremiah ‘that good word’ (Jer. 33:14). To ‘taste’, then, this ‘good Word of God’, is to experience that God has been faithful to His promise. They could not say with Jeremiah, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" (Jer. 15:16). "Itis as though he said, I speak not of those who have received nourishment; but of such as have so far tasted it, as that they ought to have desired it as ‘sincere milk’ and grown thereby" (Dr. John Owen). A solemn example of one who merely "tasted" the good Word of God is found in Mark 6:20: "for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly".

Fifth, "And the powers of the world to come," or "ageto come." The reference here is to the new dispensation which was to be ushered in by Israel’s Messiah according to Old Testament predictions. It corresponds with "these last days" of Hebrews 1:2, and is in contrast from the "time past" or Mosaic economy. These "powers" of the new Age are mentioned in Hebrews 2:4, to our comments on which we would refer the reader. Of these mighty "powers" these apostates had "tasted",or had an experience of. They had been personal witnesses of the miracles of Christ, and also of the wonders that followed His ascension, when such glorious manifestations of the Spirit were given. Thus they were "without excuse". Convincing and conclusive evidence had been set before them, but there had been no answering faith in their hearts. A solemn example of this is found in John 11:47, 48. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin",this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.
By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness" (Dr. J. Brown).

"If they shall fall away". "This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did—a supposition which, however, could never be realized—then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’.

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Continued...

[DeaconDean]

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.

Now to the passage in question.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Pelagius held a man-centered concept of salvation in which grace was unnecessary and man's heart was not affected by Adam's fall into sin. Augustine set forth the biblical teaching that Adam's sin was imputed to the race, that man did not have the moral ability to respond to Christ apart from the grace of God and, therefore, God was the initiator of salvation. Coupled with the idea that salvation was of the Lord was also the implication that God would carry out his plan and purpose in the life of each recipient of divine grace. Shortly after the time of Augustine, the Church moved away from his position and embraced a semi-pelagian concept in which man possessed an autonomous will that had the moral power to choose the gospel in and of itself. This laid the foundation for many of the Roman Catholic concepts of man contributing to his salvation through earning merit before God. Semi-Pelagianism focused on the power of man to choose the good; to make right moral decisions, and ultimately be able to choose Christ. This position denies the fact that Scripture teaches that man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 2:13); that no one is righteous, understands, or seeks for God (Rom. 3:9-12); that man is hostile to the law of God and is incapable of submitting to it (Rom. 8:7); that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44, 63-65); and that regeneration must precede faith (Eph. 2:1-5; John 3:1-10; John 1:12,13; 1 John 5:1). Semi-Pelagianism, in giving great power to man, also gives man the power to receive and reject salvation repeatedly. A person's salvation ultimately lies in the whims of that person's will. This is the background to the debate of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. The Augustinian position and later the position of the Reformers in the sixteenth century was that if a person is truly regenerate, God will protect and sustain that person so that he will persevere unto the end and be saved.

Many people who approach the Christian life in an antinomian (lawless) way and excuse their sin by saying, "It doesn't matter what I do, because I can't lose my salvation." That is a distortion, not only of grace, but also of the concept of salvation itself. Many of the arguments I have heard against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints stem from understanding the doctrine in this way. Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 6 to demonstrate that if a person is truly in Christ, he cannot sin in order that grace might abound. Union with Christ presupposes a new heart that desires to obey God.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil.1:6) In John 6:37-40, Jesus states that all who the Father gives to him will come to him and the ones who come will not be cast out. Verses 39 and 40 say, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that he has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day." Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe and he immediately connects the giving of eternal life to the resurrection; those who come to him will be raised up on the last day (see also: John 5:24; 6:44). Just as Philippians 1:6 says that God will perfect the work which he began to the day of Christ Jesus, so also Jesus ties coming to him and receiving eternal life with the idea of a future resurrection. Receiving eternal life is concomitant with being raised on the last day. The two ideas cannot be separated. Eternal life is not eternal if it can be lost in the morning and regained in the evening only to be lost again at some future date; it is not eternal if it lasts only five days or five years. When Jesus promises eternal life and connects the receiving of eternal life with a future resurrection, he is teaching that the true believer is eternally saved.

This same idea is reiterated in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Again, Jesus states that he gives his sheep eternal life and emphasizes this by the statement that no one is able to snatch them out of either his or his Father's hand. Concerning this passage, some contend that although others cannot snatch a man out of God's hand, the man himself is free to do so. However, the verse states that no one can do this. That is a universal negative which certainly includes the man himself. The passage does not qualify the "no one" by saying that the regenerate man himself may make himself unregenerate and translate himself from the kingdom of God back into the kingdom and family of the devil. Another attempt to discount this passage argues that Satan can snatch a man out of the hand of God. This passage blatantly contends that the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of his hand. That certainly includes the devil and man. This passage also demonstrates that the perseverance of the saints is actually a preservation by their Savior; their coming (being drawn by the Father) and their perseverance are grounded on God and not man (see: John 6:53,63-65).

If you believe in the sovereignty of God, that He is omnipotent, all powerful, then how can you disagree with the above passage? If man can take himself out of the Father’s hand, then in effect, that makes man more powerful than God! And this is not so. God sits on high, and rules all facets of my life, my world and is the only God.

The predominant teaching of Scripture is that the believer is eternally saved. The rejection of this position means that assurance of salvation is impossible. The most anyone could say is that at a present moment in their life they are in a state of grace, but they could not express assurance toward ultimate salvation; they could not say that they knew they were going to heaven because the possibility of falling from that state of grace sometime in their life exists. Those who hold that the true Christian can lose his salvation find themselves in disharmony with a preponderance of Scriptural evidence.

1 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

2 Ibid

3 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

4 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

5 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy


Hope this explains some things.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Andy Broadley]

So let me get this right in my mind then

What you guys are saying here is that once you are saved, no matter what you do from there on in, you stay saved?

[DeaconDean]

So let me get this right in my mind then

What you guys are saying here is that once you are saved, no matter what you do from there on in, you stay saved?

Oh no, I'm not getting drawn into an argument over Antinomianism.

Simply put, if your born into the Smith family, you'll be a Smith for the rest of your life.

Once your born into God's family, how can you become "unborn?"

And as I pointed out earlier:

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand...If man can take himself out of the Father’s hand, then in effect, that makes man more powerful than God!

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Andy Broadley]

Oh no, I'm not getting drawn into an argument over Antinomianism.

Simply put, if your born into the Smith family, you'll be a Smith for the rest of your life.

Once your born into God's family, how can you become "unborn?"

And as I pointed out earlier:



God Bless

Till all are one.


But surely being born into Gods family is not the same thing as being saved is it?

Otherwise I can rape, murder and ple=under and still be saved.

Of course I'm still one of Gods children, but that aint gonna get me into heaven

Only Grace and true repentence will do that

[DeaconDean]

Repeat post #34

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Andy Broadley]

Repeat post #34

God Bless

Till all are one.

Yes brother, I get what you are saying there

What i don't get is what do you mean by being saved?

[DeaconDean]

Yes brother, I get what you are saying there

What i don't get is what do you mean by being saved?

you don't see being "Born-again" as the new birth, or being saved?

Sorry, I can't help ya.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Andy Broadley]

you don't see being "Born-again" as the new birth, or being saved?

Sorry, I can't help ya.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Id o. Thats the whole point

How can you be born again, and be saved, and stay that way regardless of how you live your life from then on in?

Look...I'm a Christian. I have been born again and consider myself saved. I make a pretty lousy job of being a Christian most of the time and have to constantly go back to God in prayer and ask yet more forgiveness, but I do my best to live the way He wants me to.

But what if I didn't? What if I said "stuff all this" and went off and joined the Satanists? Started doing drugs and crime?

Would I still be saved?

It seems to me that the word 'saved' is getting waved around here like a spiritual 'Get out of jail free' card

[DeaconDean]

Id o. Thats the whole point

How can you be born again, and be saved, and stay that way regardless of how you live your life from then on in?

Look...I'm a Christian. I have been born again and consider myself saved. I make a pretty lousy job of being a Christian most of the time and have to constantly go back to God in prayer and ask yet more forgiveness, but I do my best to live the way He wants me to.

But what if I didn't? What if I said "stuff all this" and went off and joined the Satanists? Started doing drugs and crime?

Would I still be saved?

It seems to me that the word 'saved' is getting waved around here like a spiritual 'Get out of jail free' card

Well that is your POV and you are entitled to it.

But scripture is pretty clear that the Preseverance of the Saints is God dependant. And if you don't persevere, well, what can I say.

You weren't born again to start with.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 John 2:19 (KJV)

Sure we still sin, we haven't been made like Jesus totally:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -1 John 3:2 (KJV)

God knew we would still sin even while we are "saved," have you not read:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." -1 John 1:8-9 (KJV)

Our love for God, and His work in Christ for us, constrains us from doing what we once did.

Go back and re-read my article carefully.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Andy Broadley]

What of Judas then? Was he saved? And after the bretrayal, did he stay saved?

Is he in fact, in heaven?

[DeaconDean]

What of Judas then? Was he saved? And after the bretrayal, did he stay saved?

Is he in fact, in heaven?

prove to me Judas was "saved" in the first place?

Scriptures don't agree with that.

Unless I'm mistaken, you cannot be a "son of perdition" and a son of God at the same time.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Andy Broadley]

prove to me Judas was "saved" in the first place?

Scriptures don't agree with that.

Unless I'm mistaken, you cannot be a "son of perdition" and a son of God at the same time.

God Bless

Till all are one.

He was chosen by Jesus, does that not make him 'family'

[DeaconDean]

What does scripture say about Judas?

Judas the traitor, Luke 6:16

Judas the thief, John 12:4-6

Judas’ Character

In the village of Bethany six days before the Lord’s final Passover, where Lazarus had been raised from the dead (John 12:1 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488#)), Martha served supper with Lazarus at the table (12:2), but Mary anointed Christ’s feet with expensive “oil of spikenard,” “wiping His feet with her hair” (12:3). It was a wonderful display of love, gratitude, and worship.
Then Judas asked
Why was this fragrant oil not sold for 300 denarii and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it (John 12:4-6 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488#)).

Character trait #1: He did not care about the poor. He was a hard-hearted man, too concerned with feathering his own nest while others, less fortunate, suffered around him.
Character trait #2: He was a thief, pilfering funds from the Lord’s money box, which exposes that Judas was full of avarice, or greed.Accordingly, Judas was not in tune with Jesus, rejecting the Lord’s message. To the poor, Jesus preached the gospel (Luke 7:22 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488#)). And for the needy, Jesus taught that we should go out of our way to help them so far as we are able (parable of the Good Samaritan, Luke 10:29-37 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488#)). Judas did not welcome that message, nor did he want to help the needy. The man was not regenerated for in a believer God works to will and to do of His good pleasure, which includes ministering to those with pressing needs (cp. Philippians 2:13 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488#) with Titus 3:14 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488#)).

Son of Perdition (John 17:12 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488#))

As terrible as “traitor” is, that title pales into insignificance compared to this one. To be the “son of perdition” denotes that Judas is a man identified with eternal destruction, or whose destiny is the Lake of Fire. “Son of perdition” is a predictive designation.
Furthermore, Acts 1:25 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488#) says that Judas went “to his own place,” the thought being the place of his own choosing. Accordingly, it is not that Judas was foreordained from eternity past to go to hell, without opportunity to be saved. Instead, he chose to reject Jesus Christ and will suffer the consequences of any person who rejects the Savior.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=488

Oh yea, he was part of the "family."

Yea, right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

just to put an end to this, you do not believe in OSAS, fine.

I do.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

may God bless you in yours.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Andy Broadley]

Well actually, you can't end this

The OP of thread asked the question

So the debate is valid and the topic of discussion within here

You can retire from the debate of course, but the discussion itself will continue

[Andy Broadley]

It seems to me that everyone falls into one of two catagories here having accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour

Either you are saved, continue to do your best to follow Jesus, and therefore are saved unto eternity

or

Having once accepted Jesus into your heart reject, you later Christ and do not follow Him. In which case you didn't become unsaved, you were never saved in the first place

Doesn't hold water I'm afaraid

[Willo]

What of Judas then? Was he saved? And after the bretrayal, did he stay saved?

Is he in fact, in heaven?
The question is was Judas even saved in the first place.

"Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him. " - John 6:70-71

Scripture seems to indicate that Judas was never saved, unless of course you contend that the devil can be saved.

[Andy Broadley]

I think that Judas was chosen as one of the twelve, but that later, as scripture says "the devil entered into him".

I think Judas WAS saved but fell from Grace by what he did.

Actually Judas is probably a bad expample because there is a whole can of worms attatched to that which would blow tis discussion sideways, so best not persue Mr Iscarriot any further I guess....:D :D :D

So I'll stick to me.

I consider myself to be saved. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and saviour, and I do the best I can to follow Him and live as He wants me to live (even though I fail Him badly). And that is how I want to spend my life. Doing the best I can to follow Jesus.

So, at this moment, do you consider me to be saved?

If the answer is yes, and I then go off and become a mass murderer, am I still saved?

Or will the answer then be "Well you were never saved in the first place"?

[FreeinChrist]

How could Judas have been 'saved' if the Saviour had not died and risen yet?

The Old Saints died in faith, but their salvation was not realized until the cross. After His death, Jesus descended into Hades and rescued them. Since the cross, all who are believers are cleansed, forgiven, regenerated, made alive....it's quite a list. Salvation is secure because it is God who does the forgiving and cleansing and regenerating and gives us the Holy Spirit.
Judas was an OT character in that he lived and fell before the cross. No one can say he was saved.

[Andy Broadley]

Need to clarify something here

Are we saying that being saved gets you into heaven?

[FreeinChrist]

I think that Judas was chosen as one of the twelve, but that later, as scripture says "the devil entered into him".

I think Judas WAS saved but fell from Grace by what he did.

Actually Judas is probably a bad expample because there is a whole can of worms attatched to that which would blow tis discussion sideways, so best not persue Mr Iscarriot any further I guess....:D :D :D

So I'll stick to me.

I consider myself to be saved. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and saviour, and I do the best I can to follow Him and live as He wants me to live (even though I fail Him badly). And that is how I want to spend my life. Doing the best I can to follow Jesus.

So, at this moment, do you consider me to be saved?

If the answer is yes, and I then go off and become a mass murderer, am I still saved?

Or will the answer then be "Well you were never saved in the first place"?

Andy, I think it is VERY unwise to ask, "So, at this moment, do you consider me to be saved? " Don't put someone else in the position of judging your salvation here. Your salvation is determined by God.

Speaking in generalities, I would say that one that turned from God after claiming to be saved and then did mass murder, then the person never was 'saved'. I have confidence that my God is omnicient and knows all. He declared the end from the beginning. While a person may seem to be saved, may even seem to bring forth fruit, it is only God who sees the innermost person and KNOWS if they believe or not. And as it is God who does the forgiving and cleansing and regenerating and sealing with the Holy Spirit, I figure He knows what He is doing and can trust that our salvation is secure.

[FreeinChrist]

Need to clarify something here

Are we saying that being saved gets you into heaven?
Andy, this is the Baptist forum. In our guidelines we have this:
S Saved Church Membership.
Before anyone can be a member of a Baptist church, they first must be truly saved. We believe in the new birth, the new creation in Christ: simply stated, the saved Christian has been born again through the work of God's grace. 1 Peter 1:23, Acts 2:47 Also, Romans 10:9, i.e., The Romans Road to Salvation
Unfortunately, the statement is not enough.
Yes, we believe that being saved means you go to heaven, as being saved means you have been born again - regenerated - and are His child. We are adopted by the Father and are His.

[Andy Broadley]

Andy, I think it is VERY unwise to ask, "So, at this moment, do you consider me to be saved? " Don't put someone else in the position of judging your salvation here. Your salvation is determined by God.

Speaking in generalities, I would say that one that turned from God after claiming to be saved and then did mass murder, then the person never was 'saved'. I have confidence that my God is omnicient and knows all. He declared the end from the beginning. While a person may seem to be saved, may even seem to bring forth fruit, it is only God who sees the innermost person and KNOWS if they believe or not. And as it is God who does the forgiving and cleansing and regenerating and sealing with the Holy Spirit, I figure He knows what He is doing and can trust that our salvation is secure.



So therefore nobody can say 'Yes I am saved', because nobody other than God knows...

[FreeinChrist]

So therefore nobody can say 'Yes I am saved', because nobody other than God knows...
They have to answer to God.

You can't see into the innermost thoughts of another person - only God can.

[Andy Broadley]

They have to answer to God.

You can't see into the innermost thoughts of another person - only God can.

I think thats the point I was trying to make

We have no certainty of Heaven, that is in Gods. We must accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then dedicate our lives to following Him. Then, once our earthly life is ended, God will judge us and decide if we get into heaven or not.

Being saved now is no guaruntee of a ticket, unless our lives reflect the fact that we are born again.

[Vambram]

I disagree somewhat with your conclusion, Andy. Too many times in the New Testament, I see assurances of salvation and promises in the New Testament that a person may know, be fully persuaded, be convinced, and KNOW that he IS saved and born-again. According to the promises in the New Testament, I don't see any reasons why someone whom truly has been born-again cannot have true assurances in his heart that he may 100% know that he is saved, and that the Holy Spirit is indwelling within him.

[Andy Broadley]

I disagree somewhat with your conclusion, Andy. Too many times in the New Testament, I see assurances of salvation and promises in the New Testament that a person may know, be fully persuaded, be convinced, and KNOW that he IS saved and born-again. According to the promises in the New Testament, I don't see any reasons why someone whom truly has been born-again cannot have true assurances in his heart that he may 100% know that he is saved, and that the Holy Spirit is indwelling within him.

To be honest brother there is nothing in what you have said that I would disagree with.

I hope that that situation applies to me. I know I am not worthy and can only rely on the Grace of God, but I consider myself saved in every respect of the way you describe

My disagreement is thge assumption that this cannot change. My point is that being saved demands an ongoing and lifelong walk with Jesus from the point where we accept Him into our hearts, and that if we fail to do that then our Salvation is not guarunteed.

[Vambram]

To be honest brother there is nothing in what you have said that I would disagree with.

I hope that that situation applies to me. I know I am not worthy and can only rely on the Grace of God, but I consider myself saved in every respect of the way you describe

My disagreement is thge assumption that this cannot change. My point is that being saved demands an ongoing and lifelong walk with Jesus from the point where we accept Him into our hearts, and that if we fail to do that then our Salvation is not guarunteed.

And that is where you and I do disagree, brother Andy. I do NOT believe that a person whom is truly born-again can indeed LOSE that salvation. As you say, it is only by the grace of God that a person is saved. A person whom is truly saved and born-again will continue on in faith in Christ, and walking in Christ according to Christ's teachings. Will there be times and periods of backslidden behavior? Yes, of course there shall be, since we are not sinless. However, if a person who claims to be born-again but then makes a conscious decision to deny GOD and Christ, or the Gospel of Christ, (not just merely in fear because of persecution), but such denial that could come because of an apostate heart. Then, I believe that the New Testament teaches that person NEVER had the indwelling Holy Spirit. According to the verses of Scripture that you and I are both familar with, brother Andy, that person had made a false profession of faith with his mouth, and he was not born-again.
The parable of the seed and the sower in the Gospels help illustrate this. Also, how many times does a person need to be truly born-again in order for the saving grace of GOD to truly be effective and thereby causing a person to be justified and made righteous in the eyes of the Lord God?

:) :groupray: :hug: :)

[Sweet Pea]

Since this is the Baptist forum, is there any "Baptist" members who don't believe in OSAS? I see there's non-Baptists voting in the poll.
I've never heard of Baptists believing anything else than OSAS.

[FreeinChrist]

I think thats the point I was trying to make

We have no certainty of Heaven, that is in Gods. We must accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then dedicate our lives to following Him. Then, once our earthly life is ended, God will judge us and decide if we get into heaven or not.

Being saved now is no guaruntee of a ticket, unless our lives reflect the fact that we are born again.

And I disagree with that conclusion and find it in disagreement with the Baptist point of view.

Being saved now IS a guarantee of a 'ticket' to heaven - that is what I wrote, Andy. We can be guaranteed because it is GOD who does the saving. God doesn't decide once we die if we go or not - He already knows. The Great White throne judgment is for the those other than the Bride of Christ.

You missed my point in that WE cannot determine if YOU or another person is saved - only God can do that. So all we can do is say that if a person turns against God after claiming to believe then he didn't ever really believe and was not saved. However, he may be - he may be going off the narrow path but God is bringing him back. All we can talk is generalities here - not about your salvation personally which you asked about.

[FreeinChrist]

Since this is the Baptist forum, is there any "Baptist" members who don't believe in OSAS? I see there's non-Baptists voting in the poll.
I've never heard of Baptists believing anything else than OSAS.
Actually there are Free-will Baptists who believe on can lose salvation.

[DeaconDean]

Going back and looking at Mr. Broadley's previous posts, I see at least five (5) things he has a problem with or does not fully comprehend. They are:

Item #1: Antinomianism (post #33)

Item #2: Apostasy (post #39)

Item #3: Judas being saved and falling from grace

Item #4: Apostasy again (post #47)

Item #5: Lack of assurance (post #56)

I shall try to address these.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

What you guys are saying here is that once you are saved, no matter what you do from there on in, you stay saved? (post #33)


But surely being born into Gods family is not the same thing as being saved is it?

Otherwise I can rape, murder and ple=under and still be saved. (post #35)

Antinomianism is what is being addressed here. A clear cut statement that “no matter what you do, you stay saved…rape, murder,…”

This is antinomianism at its fullest.

One absolutely cannot be saved and carry on as they once did. Antinomianism comes from two Greek words: anti means against and nomos means law. So antinomianism means against the law, against God's moral law. It means lawlessness.

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.” –Gal. 5:13 (KJV)

Here I shall quote P. G. Mathew, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.:

In Galatians St. Paul argues for our Christian freedom, and yet he makes this point in the thirteenth verse of Galatians 5: "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature." You see, people were saying, "We are free! We agree with you, St. Paul, that we are not under law, we are under grace. We are justified by grace through faith alone, and therefore we ought to have no dealings with the moral law of God. The moral law of God is not our guide to holy conduct. In fact, we probably must demonstrate that we are orthodox, that we believe in salvation by grace through faith, by violating God's law. Then we will truly pride ourselves on being people who are saved by grace through faith!"

http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gvcc/radio_trans/antinomianism.html

1 John 1:6 also addresses this well also:

“we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:”

And in 1 John 3:7 John says:

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”

Matthew says:

He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work." You see, there were teachers and leaders in New Testament churches who were heretics. They taught this "salvation made easy" idea, that you can go to heaven while sinning to your heart's content as you live in this world.

http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gvcc/radio_trans/antinomianism.html

You absolutely cannot come out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light and continue as you once did. Even if you walk in light, as you presume, and eventually walk in darkness, then you were never saved in the first place.

Continued…

[DeaconDean]

Addressing "apostasy" which is apparent in post #39.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." -Heb. 6:4-6 (KJV)

Again, I cannot put it as good as Arthur W. Pink does, so let me re-quote him:

Three things claim our careful attention in coming closer to our passage: the persons here spoken of, the sin they commit, the doom pronounced upon them. In considering the persons spoken of it is of first importance to note that the apostle does not say, "us who were once enlightened", nor even "you", instead, he says "those". In sharp contrast from them, he says to the Hebrews, "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you".

It is scarcely accurate to designate as "mere professors" those described in verses 4,5. They were a class who had enjoyed great privileges, beyond any such as now accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Those here portrayed are said to have had five advantages, which is in contrast from the six things enumerated in verses 1, 2, which things belong to man in the flesh, under Judaism. Five is the number of grace, and the blessings here mentioned pertain to the Christian dispensation. Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God. First, they had been "enlightened". The Sun of righteousness had shone with healing in His wings, and, as Matthew 4:16 says, "The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up". Unlike the heathen, whom Christ, in the days of His flesh, visited not, those who came under the sound of His voice were wondrously and gloriously illumined.

The Hebrews had accepted the gospel of the once crucified and now glorified Redeemer, who sent down from heaven the Spirit, a sign of His exaltation, and a pledge of the future inheritance. Having thus entered into the sphere of new covenant manifestation, any one who willfully abandoned it could only relapse into that phase of Judaism which crucified the Lord Jesus. There was no other alternative for them, but either to go on to the full knowledge of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and to the believer’s acceptance and worship through the Mediator in the sanctuary above, or fall back into the attitude, not of the godly Israelites before Pentecost, such as John the Baptist and those who waited for the promised redemption, nor even into the condition of those for whom the Savior prayed, ‘for they know not what they do’; but into a state of willful conscious enmity against Christ, and the sin of rejecting Him, and putting Him to an open shame" (Adolph Sophir)
First, the Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56. Those here in view had had an acquaintance with the Gospel, as to gain such a measure of its blessedness as to greatly aggravate their sin and doom. An illustration of this is found in Matthew 13:20, 21.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates.

Fourth, "And have tasted the good Word of God". "I understand by this expression the promise of God respecting the Messiah, the sum and substance of all. It deserves notice that this promise is by way of eminence termed by Jeremiah ‘that good word’ (Jer. 33:14). To ‘taste’, then, this ‘good Word of God’, is to experience that God has been faithful to His promise. They could not say with Jeremiah, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" (Jer. 15:16). "Itis as though he said, I speak not of those who have received nourishment; but of such as have so far tasted it, as that they ought to have desired it as ‘sincere milk’ and grown thereby" (Dr. John Owen). A solemn example of one who merely "tasted" the good Word of God is found in Mark 6:20: "for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly".

Fifth, "And the powers of the world to come," or "ageto come." The reference here is to the new dispensation which was to be ushered in by Israel’s Messiah according to Old Testament predictions. It corresponds with "these last days" of Hebrews 1:2, and is in contrast from the "time past" or Mosaic economy. These "powers" of the new Age are mentioned in Hebrews 2:4, to our comments on which we would refer the reader. Of these mighty "powers" these apostates had "tasted",or had an experience of. They had been personal witnesses of the miracles of Christ, and also of the wonders that followed His ascension, when such glorious manifestations of the Spirit were given. Thus they were "without excuse". Convincing and conclusive evidence had been set before them, but there had been no answering faith in their hearts. A solemn example of this is found in John 11:47, 48. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin",this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.
By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness" (Dr. J. Brown).

"If they shall fall away". "This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did—a supposition which, however, could never be realized—then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’.

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.


http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_024.htm

Continued...

[DeaconDean]

Items #3 and #4 were addressed earlier by me, so I see no need to rehash these.

But we do need to address Item #5.

And I shal do so, in a few minutes. I have work to do and will address this after midnight.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

While others may not be able to say so, but I can say I have full assurance of my salvation.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" -Phil. 1:6 (KJV)

Let me quote John Reisinger:


One: Is true assurance of salvation possible or must we wait until we die? Put another way, is it possible for a person, while still living, to be certain that he is going to go to heaven? The answer is, "Yes, assurance is not only possible but Christians are exhorted, as a duty, to seek and find heartfelt assurance...

Do the Scriptures support this statement? Is real assurance of salvation possible in this life time? I believe the Bible does teach what the confession states. I have looked in many faces in hospital beds and read Romans 5:1, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God." I would ask, "Do you have this peace which is here promised? Have you been declared righteous by God? Can you say, "I am as righteous—in God's sight—as His dear Son Jesus Christ?'" That text is clearly stating that assurance of salvation is possible.
Ephesians 2:8, 9 has been used of God to bring many sheep to an assurance of forgiveness of sins. They have seen that salvation is a totally free gift from God's grace that is the possession of every one who has faith in Jesus Christ. The "have been saved" is a "once and for all statement" that cannot be altered. That passage is talking about assurance of salvation.

II Timothy 1:12 is like a sledge hammer against the work mongers that deny assurance is possible. Just look at those amazing words carefully.For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. II Timothy 1:12.
This verse contains two of Paul's favorite words. Paul knows and he is persuaded. He is not saying that he knows all about Jesus Christ. Paul knows Christ Himself. He is emphasizing Whom he knows—not what he knows. Because he knows Christ, Paul is confident that he can commit his soul and his eternity into Christ's hands and both will be kept secure for time and eternity. Paul had entrusted his eternal destiny into the hands of Christ against "that day" when he, Paul, would stand before God. He knew all would be well in the day of judgment. He was positive he was saved and secure. The word committed means to deposit and would be the word used when you deposited money in the bank. You were trusting them to keep it for you against a rainy day. When Paul envisioned himself standing before God, he was absolutely certain he would hear God say, "Come and welcome, thy sins are all forgiven Thee.

The most important thing about this statement is that it is not written for Apostles, preachers, missionaries, or "super spiritual Christians." This is for every believer. This statement includes every person that is joined to Christ in a living faith. If you have trusted Christ then this verse describes you whether you feel it is true of you or not! It is not your faith that will keep you, it is the one in whom you have put your faith. If you have committed your soul and life into the hands of Jesus Christ, you are safe! One of my favorite passages in dealing with strangers to grace is John 14:1–6. I explain that Jesus predicted that He was going back to heaven. He then informs His disciples that they not only know where He is going but they also know how to get there. I am so grateful that Thomas asked the big question. "Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" (John 14:5). I explain to people that any religious leader, including myself, could mislead them through ignorance, but Jesus Christ would never do so. Here, in the Bible, a confused doubter asked Christ Himself the specific question, "How can I know the way to heaven?" If anyone ought to be able to answer that question with absolute authority, it is our Lord Jesus Christ."

http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index030.htm

I have assurance of my salvation and my place because god's word tells me so. And consider what paul says in Rom. 7:3-4:

"...but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another,"

Our baptism is symbolic of death to ourselves, and being risen with Christ. We were once married to the world. Now that salvation has come, we have died. And while we were living in the world we were bound to that "husband." but since that "husband" has died, we are free to remarry. And we have been married to Christ. that is what Romans 7:4 teaches.

Will Jesus forsake His bride? I think not.

Another point which Donald Grey Barnhouse brings out is this:

The third lesson to draw from our standing in justification is that what God has done is eternally done; not even He can undo it. How can anyone believe that a true Christian can fall away and be lost? What a horrible caricature of God! Would He give His life to redeen wretched sons of Adam and then leave the accomplishment of their salvation to their feebile efforts? This is not only a low view of God but an equally low view of the sinfullness of sin. left to ourselves, we could not live in holiness for the space of one breath. our only hope is that we are under grace, maintained in the resurrection of Christ. The Father sees us in Christ and our condition is daily brought under His control to conform to our perfect position. before He moved to redeem us, the Lord knew our nature and being, and He still knows it. Once communicated, His grace never be withdrawn. We have been born again, and we cannot be unborn. once God has given eternal life, He cannot withdraw it and substitute it with eternal death.

Chastening

A fourth lesson to learn from justification is although failure may led to chastening, it cannot led to spiritual death. The Holy Spirit teaches this wonderful truth in 2 Timothy: "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."-2 Tim. 2:11-13 (KJV)
This truth is set forth in much detail in the first epistle to the Corinthians. In that church, so recently out of paganism, there was a "carnal" believer. Paul vigorously chided the church's easy tolerance of his sin and ordered them to pray for his death. The transgressor repented, and Paul instructed them to surround him with love lest he be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow because of the heavy disipline visited against him. (2 Cor. 2:6-7) But Paul stated earlier that if the man were delivered to judgment and his body suffered death, his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:5)...A believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can be chasened here and lose his crown forever, but he cannot be sent to the lake of fire by the God who loved him, accepted him in Christ, counted him justified, and put to the account the very righteousness of God in the gift of eternal life.

Donald Grey Barnhouse, Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1961. God's Freedom, Chapter XII, The Law of Love, God's Eternal Work, Chastening, p. 148-150.

i have assurance of my salvation. I have died to self, been buried with Christ, risen with Him, am a new creation created unto good works, married to Him, and he has begun a good work in me and will see it through until it is brought to completion.

I'm truly sorry that you feel that you don't have that assurance.

Jesus said:

"Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none." -Jn. 18:9 (KJV)

If you truly believe that God can lose one of His own, then you and I serve two different God's.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Vambram]

:amen::preach:

and again I say, :amen:


:preach: :groupray:

[holyrokker]

Since this is the Baptist forum, is there any "Baptist" members who don't believe in OSAS? I see there's non-Baptists voting in the poll.
I've never heard of Baptists believing anything else than OSAS.
I am a member of a Baptist church, and I do not accept the OSAS doctrine.

[DeaconDean]

to further emphasize, i have full assurance of my salvation, I submit:

"And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever." -Isa. 32:17 (KJV)

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;" -Col. 2:2 (KJV)

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." -1 Thes. 1:5 (KJV)

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" -2 Tim. 1:12

"And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:" -Heb. 6:11 (KJV)

"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." -Heb. 10:22 (KJV)

"And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head." -Lk. 7:44 (KJV)

"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death...And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." -1 Jn. 3:3:14, 19 (KJV)

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." -1 Jn. 4:18 (KJV)

I have full assurance of my salvation because God's word, the bible, tells me so and "God, that cannot lie," (Titus 1:2).

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

Listen here sweetheart, this is how it's gonna be...

Ok people, I'm just as guilty as the next person. So I am including myself in this. The OP said:


Do you believe in once saved, always saved? :confused:


A simple yes or no answer was asked for.

Lets get this thread back on track.

Remember, I'm just as guilty as the next person, so i'm not singling anyone out. Just trying to get this back on track.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[HappyChicken]

i believe that you can be saved, and then go the wrong way. you can expose yourself to evils that cause the Holy Spirit to go away. But I think you can get it all back in an instant if you repent and change.