Book - The Virtue of War: Reclaiming the Classic Christian Traditions East & West

[SpyridonOCA]

I'm sorry to have hurt or offended anyone regarding my previous statements on the Iraq war. While my position has not changed, I am open to learning more from different perspectives, and admitting the possibility that I am wrong. For that reason, I plan on reading this book:

The Virtue of War: Reclaiming the Classic Christian Traditions East & West
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1928653170/sr=1-2/qid=1195794087/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1195794087&sr=1-2&seller=

[sashatheman]

I 'm new here. Please tell me why people got upset on your view of the Iraq war?

or ill just dig up the thread you speak of and read it my sefl :P

[Philothei]

http://incommunion.org/

Also visit this one... so you can have a more balanced approach. I have never see this book before. Sorry I cannot comment. If you read it you can tell us what it is all about...


God bless,
Philothei

[SpyridonOCA]

Father Alexander is a priest of the Orthodox Church in America and a chaplain for the U.S. Army.

[Philothei]

which juristiction is he in?

[SpyridonOCA]

which juristiction is he in?

As I said before, the Orthodox Church in America. I understand the vagueness of the term. The Virtue of War was written as a companion to his previous book on Orthodoxy and pacifism.

[Philothei]

Oh...duh.... I did not notice too late at night... I would defenately read it if I had the time then....

Thanks for sharing the bringing that to my attention.

I am preparing a book list for Christmas shoping for myself...

God bless,
Philothei

[Protoevangel]

Here (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/AgainWebster.shtml) is an interview with Father Alexander, regarding the book.

[Philothei]

Thanks Proto I put it in my favorites :)

God bless,
Philothei

[SpyridonOCA]

Here (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/AgainWebster.shtml) is an interview with Father Alexander, regarding the book.

This is an audio interview:

http://www.receive.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=128

Even if I might not entirely agree with him, it's refreshing to hear an Orthodox perspective in favor of the war, rather than tired Republican talking points.

[Komnenos]

Hmmmm. I have to add this book to my Book list! (My fiance put me on a Moratorium for books until Christmas)

[Orthosdoxa]

I believe that's the same priest who visited and communed our very own Bushmaster.

[Thekla]

When under consideration for an Orthodox reading group, the person proposing the book mentioned that much of the supporting argument was found in St. Augustine ? Is this the case ?

[SpyridonOCA]

Father Webster wrote the book as a companion to his previous book on pacifism. He understands pacifism, and the concept of a just war, as equally legitimate positions in Orthodox Tradition.

[SpyridonOCA]

When under consideration for an Orthodox reading group, the person proposing the book mentioned that much of the supporting argument was found in St. Augustine ? Is this the case ?

While I have not yet read the book, and couldn't answer your question directly, St. Augustine is a father of the Orthodox Church.

This is an article on the Orthodox position toward war:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Just_war

To say that the Orthodox Church has never condoned war, one would need to ignore the Byzantine period.

[Philothei]

While I have not yet read the book, and couldn't answer your question directly, St. Augustine is a father of the Orthodox Church.

This is an article on the Orthodox position toward war:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Just_war

To say that the Orthodox Church has never condoned war, one would need to ignore the Byzantine period.
Although he is a father of the church many of his writings were considered heretical and we have to see if the author used the "heretical" views of St. Augustine or the ones accepted... BTW the only officially accepted by the church in general are the ones on spirituality.... not on dogma... just a clarification.

God bless,
Philothei

[SpyridonOCA]

I don't understand the point of what you are saying. The book draws on the 2000 year Tradition of the Church, rather than just Saint Augustine.

[Thekla]

I don't understand the point of what you are saying. The book draws on the 2000 year Tradition of the Church, rather than just Saint Augustine.
No express point; the book club member who read and proposed the book mentioned this. I am interested to know, and don't have the book
(nor is the topic of particular interest to me at present - largely due to my stack of unread books ^_^). I do admit a certain caution where the teachings of St. Augustine are concerned ... his teaching on original sin, for ex.

[Bushmaster78FS]

I'm sorry to have hurt or offended anyone regarding my previous statements on the Iraq war. While my position has not changed, I am open to learning more from different perspectives, and admitting the possibility that I am wrong.

Why am I not surprised, do I see a trend here? Come here and vent and then apologize. How about think twice before you speak once...


For that reason, I plan on reading this book:

The Virtue of War: Reclaiming the Classic Christian Traditions East & West
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1928653170/sr=1-2/qid=1195794087/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1195794087&sr=1-2&seller=

It is the book I had linked in the mentioned doomed thread. I can't help wonder, you found about the book from my response or by yourself?

I 'm new here. Please tell me why people got upset on your view of the Iraq war?

or ill just dig up the thread you speak of and read it my sefl :P

Because he got emotional on nonsensical whims and false assumptions and so called facts (more likely allegations) about the military operations and American efforts ongoing in Iraq.


As I said before, the Orthodox Church in America. I understand the vagueness of the term. The Virtue of War was written as a companion to his previous book on Orthodoxy and pacifism.

Though he doesn't advertise the book as a companion, at least he didn't to us. He clearly understands and explains being an Orthodox Christian does not mean to become a pacifist.


Even if I might not entirely agree with him, it's refreshing to hear an Orthodox perspective in favor of the war, rather than tired Republican talking points.

Again, why am I not surprised, it is hard to break the personal hard-headedness and habits, even though your source is a professor and a leader in faith, possibly more knowledgeable and authoritative about the issues. Republicans argue in favor of the war also and you will see that Fr. Alexander's points in the book are at certain points identical to Republican "talking points" that were shown as our reason to invade Iraq.

I believe that's the same priest who visited and communed our very own Bushmaster.

Yeppers ... ;) Ignore the stash and crappy hair ... :D

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7864/078bs8.jpg

[SpyridonOCA]

I do admit a certain caution where the teachings of St. Augustine are concerned ... his teaching on original sin, for ex.

That's understandable. He's still, nonetheless, a saint.

Saint Augustine in the Greek Orthodox Tradition
Rev. Dr. George C. Papademetriou
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8153.asp

[SpyridonOCA]

Bushmaster, while I respect your position as a soldier, that doesn't change the fact of how badly this war has been handled. The mistakes made in the Iraq war will have an affect for decades to come. If the Bush administration had a policy for securing the peace after we invaded, along with a real exit strategy, countless deaths would have been avoided. I don't need to change my position in order to apologize for having hurt or offended anyone. Sometimes, it's more important to be sensitive than to be right.

[Thekla]

That's understandable. He's still, nonetheless, a saint.

Saint Augustine in the Greek Orthodox Tradition
Rev. Dr. George C. Papademetriou
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8153.asp

exactly. Its the teachings, however, that concern me. To those of us "exiting" the western tradition, I think its important to consider carefully how our reading of even his "accepted teachings" may be flavored by previous understanding. It is also for this reason that I am cautious.

[MariaRegina]

With certain Muslim sects, there is no peace.


I like the bumper stickers that proclaim:

No Jesus, no peace.
Know Jesus, know peace


The real problem in Iraq is the constant war that goes on between the Sunnis and the Shites.

As long as these two group are battling it out and calling each other heretics and trying to kill each other, we are not going to have peace in Iraq.

Unfortunately, our US soldiers are between these two groups.

[SpyridonOCA]

With certain Muslim sects, there is no peace.


I like the bumper stickers that proclaim:

No Jesus, no peace.
Know Jesus, know peace


The real problem in Iraq is the constant war that goes on between the Sunnis and the Shites.

As long as these two group are battling it out and calling each other heretics and trying to kill each other, we are not going to have peace in Iraq.

Unfortunately, our US soldiers are between these two groups.

I don't believe that the deaths in Iraq can so easily be attributed to the insurgency, though it does play a large role. Also, the insurgency could have been avoided if the Bush administration hadn't failed to restore security after the invasion.


In the week in which General Patraeus reports back to US Congress on the impact the recent ‘surge’ is having in Iraq, a new poll reveals that more than 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have been murdered since the invasion took place in 2003.

Previous estimates, most noticeably the one published in the Lancet in October 2006, suggested almost half this number (654,965 deaths).
These findings come from a poll released today by ORB, the British polling agency that has been tracking public opinion in Iraq since 2005. In conjunction with their Iraqi fieldwork agency a representative sample of 1,499 adults aged 18+ answered the following question...
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=78



Greenspan's damning comments about the war come as a survey of Iraqis, which was released last week, claims that up to 1.2 million people may have died because of the conflict in Iraq - lending weight to a 2006 survey in the Lancet that reported similarly high levels...

Previous estimates gave a range between 390,000 and 940,000, the most prominent of which - collected by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and reported in the Lancet in October 2006 - suggested 654,965 deaths.

Although the household survey was carried out by a polling organisation, rather than researchers, it has again raised the spectre that the 2003 invasion has caused a far more substantial death toll than officially acknowledged.

The ORB survey follows an earlier report by the organisation which suggested that one in four Iraqi adults had lost a family member to violence. The latest survey suggests that in Baghdad that number is as high as one in two. If true, these latest figures would suggest the death toll in Iraq now exceeds that of the Rwandan genocide in which about 800,000 died.

The Lancet survey was criticised by some experts and by George Bush and British officials. In private, however, the Ministry of Defence's chief scientific adviser Sir Roy Anderson described it as 'close to best practice'.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2170237,00.html


May God have mercy on us all.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Bushmaster, while I respect your position as a soldier, that doesn't change the fact of how badly this war has been handled.

Unfortunately, this only implies your opinion not based on experience but half truths served with hearsay. Handling a war this scale which religious factors are involved was never easy no matter intentions were indeed pure or not.

The mistakes made in the Iraq war will have an affect for decades to come.Mistake number one, dealing with media, trying to be politically correct so we wouldn't look bad. Media should never have been allowed to the extent they have, especially international media, namely sensation lover Brits. There are many classified ops we have run and we have the right to deny them access, but we didn't, we fought a war against an insurgency that used media against us.

If the Bush administration had a policy for securing the peace after we invaded, along with a real exit strategy, countless deaths would have been avoided.Actually, right after Iraqi military organization was rendered ineffective, we tackled the rebuilding issue, that is when Al-Queda started moving in, we have always handled security, we still do, we never slacked in terms of settling issues of Iraqis. There is no exit strategy, there was never one. What was the exit strategy from Germany? Japan, Korea? Countless deaths are no American responsibility if I am convinced that they are doing all they can. Unfortunately, we can not declare war against islamic entities, which would have been effective and conclusive.

I don't need to change my position in order to apologize for having hurt or offended anyone. Sometimes, it's more important to be sensitive than to be right.
No, you don't, it just makes you look bad and less credible. Please save the Brit opinion, I don't need any of that, nor do you...

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.10.12.SurveySays-X.gif

[Akathist]

I don't need to change my position in order to apologize for having hurt or offended anyone. Sometimes, it's more important to be sensitive than to be right.

I for one am grateful that you are willing to apologize for any hurtful things you have said in the past. Even if you didn't mean to be hurtful... you are showing sensitivity.

I think it is true that when it comes to politics that it is better to be sensitive then it is to debate about the issue at all costs.

I am sorry some here did not accept you apology. I feel very sad about this.

I have not read the book you posted about. My views about the war is moderate. I am not for or against it now that we are in it. (I was against it when it first started but see no reason to beat a dead horse now that we are in it.)

I am not a pacifist. I have tried in the past to adopt a more pacifists point of view and it goes directly against my personality. I think down deep inside I am too much of a fighter by nature. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. I can see the value in pacifism. I have plenty of examples of this in the stories of the Saints. On the other hand, I stick up for what I think is right and try very hard to protect those who need help being protected.

I think war is a bad thing. But I think allowing people to be treated by a dictator as the Iraqi people were treated was also bad. At some point, we need an exit strategy but I don't think the answer is just to walk away right this second. These things take planning and careful consideration of all of the fall out.

Thinking of fall out. I dearly wish that TAW does not become a collateral victim of the political battles on this subject. I hope we can stay focused on the preparation for the Nativity and remember that TAW is a place we want to make friendly for visitors and lurkers as many have converted to the faith after learning about it here.

[Orthosdoxa]

I hope we can stay focused on the preparation for the Nativity and remember that TAW is a place we want to make friendly for visitors and lurkers

:bow: :bow: :bow:

[Bushmaster78FS]

I think you can freely use names, I am not ashamed, won't be, I am sorry that I did not accept his apology, I will not. There was no reason for a thread such as his, which again ended up with apologies, there should be no trend of breaking people's hearts and then apologizing.

Because of the war in Iraq and Islam issues, I have 5 people, and I am going to name them, him, repentant, phoitos or whatever his name was, silentchapel, zhilan, on these forums that I would strictly avoid and it might take SO LONG to forgive and forget. Politics should not be allowed on TAW, period.

[MariaRegina]

Dear John,

I know that it is hard for you to be in Iraq and possibly offer your life for us and our country when people back home in the states question why we are there in the first place.

I am praying for your safe return, that you may not be harmed, and that you may be able to attend seminary.

And I agree that we should try to keep politics out of TAW.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Philothei]

Ditto, here no politics... and if you absolutely have to do this take it up at the debate forum (St.Justin's) where things are much slower and less stressful.
God bless,
Philothei

[Protoevangel]

Seventy times seven, Bushmaster. Seventy times seven.

I salute you, and those with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pGoRHCCVwU

[Komnenos]

"I don't believe that the deaths in Iraq can so easily be attributed to the insurgency"
What are you implying here? That coalition troops are massacring Iraqi civilians? From where did you get this information?

[Orthosdoxa]

Sometimes, it's more important to be sensitive than to be right.

If you were sensitive OR right, you'd shut down this abomination of a thread and keep any further opinions on this to yourself. Bushmaster is risking his life every day by being over there, missing being with family, in a strange land, and comes here to an Orthodox board, where he should find fellowship and support, but instead he comes here and is inundated with idiotic insinuations about the US government planning 9/11 and the soldiers doing more killing than the insurgents.

Some of us DO believe that what he is doing, what my brother in law who is also over there is doing, makes a difference not only for the good of the everyday Iraqi, but the future safety of the world.

This was no apology at all, Spyridon, because you're STILL trying to prove yourself right. It's as clear as day. I'm sure you'll argue and try to justify yourself somehow, but this was no apology at all.

Bushmaster, listen to Proto about 70x7. I am sad every time I see a furious post from you, not because your feelings are misplaced, but because it's like you're trying to teach the blind to drive - it's not going to go anywhere and it just frustrates you.

I would be angry in your shoes, too, but it's not worth it. IT'S NOT WORTH IT. Save your energy for something that IS worth it, like anticipating your trip home to see the lovely BMW.

My love and prayers for you, friend.

[Komnenos]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Orthosdoxa again."

[Akathist]

This thread was moved to the Debate area by Staff consensus.

[repentant]

The book refers to a JUST war. The Iraq war is anything but. Bushmaster tried to use this book to voice his opinion, and I quoted a passage of it where it talks about just war.

Attacking a country that did nothing to you, and wanting to bomb another country based on hypotheticals, is not the Orthodox position, and from the excerps I have read, not the position of the author either.

[SpyridonOCA]

One of the requirements of a just war is the likelihood of success. The United States had, as an occupying power, the responsibility to restore security in Iraq after the invasion. Bush's strategy totally failed, if he even had a strategy to secure the peace at all. When you create a power vaccum where terrorists are allowed to run wild, you share in the responsibility for the people they kill. Dismantling the Iraqi army and police is what allowed the insurgency to happen on such a grandscale. Furthermore, you need to think about the meaning of urban warfare, where there is no physical difference between combatants and non-combatants. Insurgents and terrorists do not wear uniforms. Civilians are bound to get killed in the process. It's a fact. I am not a pacifist. Neither am I a leftist. I stand with the majority of Americans in saying that Iraq has become a foreign policy disaster.