Secular Zionism

[Talmidah]

..and yet Israelis seem to resent being told how to do things by people that don't live there or haven't walked (lived) in their shoes for a few years.

I wonder if sometimes we think all Jews should think like all the other Jews. :) I know that's a trap I fall into from time to time.Oh I understand what you mean. But I also see that most Israelis do not care what the Torah says and so don't feel so rooted to the land, you know? When all you have is secular nationalism to tie you to a nation, its not such a huge thing to give up pieces of it in return for peace without seeing the bigger picture. So of course they would resent 'outsiders' opinions on what they should do. But I still agree with Chazak that secular zionism is doomed to fail.

But ..... isn't this thread called "Christianity....Origins"? I apologize for being so off topic!!! :sorry:

[visionary]

Because it is an interesting trail on the subject of secular Zionism, may I take the rabbit trails and make a new thread?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

But, but, but, I was following the big white wabbit. ^_^ Wabbit twails ------ ah oh, wabbit poop ....,....:sick:

[ContraMundum]

Oh I understand what you mean. But I also see that most Israelis do not care what the Torah says and so don't feel so rooted to the land, you know? When all you have is secular nationalism to tie you to a nation, its not such a huge thing to give up pieces of it in return for peace without seeing the bigger picture. So of course they would resent 'outsiders' opinions on what they should do. But I still agree with Chazak that secular zionism is doomed to fail.

But ..... isn't this thread called "Christianity....Origins"? I apologize for being so off topic!!! :sorry:

It's pretty complex, isn't it?

Secular nationalism is the way every nation goes, sadly. Some academics even argue that secularism is the true essence of nationhood.

Anyway, I worked out long ago to not stress about Israel the state anymore. It exists by God's will, and will continue to do so as long as God wills it. The observance of Torah may or may not save the nation or even matter, but ultimately, it will exist only according to God's will.

Unfortunately, secular Zionism is here to stay, because secularism around the world is here to stay. Secularism is the basis in many versions of democracy, after all. Sadly, this leaves Israel in a constant tension between the various religious factions and there ideals on how Israel should live. I just feel sorry for people caught in the middle who just want to live in peace and not be forced into any particular religious system.

But, then again, secularism, bad government, false peace, religious bickering and prejudice is here to stay until Messiah comes. (or again, as we say.) :)

[Henaynei]

I just feel sorry for people caught in the middle who just want to live in peace and not be forced into any particular religious system.

Revelation 3:14-22 14 "To the angel of the Messianic Community in Laodicea, write: 'Here is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Ruler of God's creation: 15 "I know what you are doing: you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth! James 44 You unfaithful wives! Don't you know that loving the world is hating G-d? Whoever chooses to be the world's friend makes himself G-d's enemy! 5 Or do you suppose the Scripture speaks in vain when it says that there is a spirit in us which longs to envy? 6 But the grace he gives is greater, which is why it says, "G-d opposes the arrogant, but to the humble he gives grace." 7 Therefore, submit to God. Moreover, take a stand against the Adversary, and he will flee from you. 8 Come close to G-d, and he will come close to you. Clean your hands, sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded people! 9 Wail, mourn, sob! Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into gloom! 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

[visionary]

It starts out as Secular Zionism but when the end comes they will turn or return to fervent prayer for salvation.

There were those who accepted that the Return to Zion was indeed part and parcel of the Messianic process, but believed that it was up to Jews to launch that process. The Messianic process would not be a miraculous occurence -- at least not until its final stages -- it was a natural phenomenon which would be started by Jews taking their fate into their own hands and proving their faith to G-d by beginning the process of Return themselves.

This was the trial that G-d had in store for the Jews -- a test they were required to pass. If they proved their faith in G-d by doing this, then the process would be completed by the Divine hand. It was an illusion to believe that the People should wait passively for a miraculous Messiah to appear supernaturally and bring them back instantly -- that was not the way of G-d.

There they are those who see secular zionism as just a social process only. Zionism was not a Messianic movement and would have no bearing on the final Redemption -- that would indeed be ushered in b G-d and could not be affected or influenced by the People.

However, it was permissible -- and, indeed, proper -- to save Jews from persecution and humiliation. This was the task of Zionism: to rescue and save the Jews. Naturally, this was to be done in a manner consistent with Torah, but it was not to be confused with the ultimate Messianic task.
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/ACT/17zion.html

[Torah613]

IMO, its like this:

The return of Eretz Yisrail to the Jewish people, and Jews continuing to make Aliyah, are paving the way for Ha Moshiach.

Yochanan

[visionary]

Reports are coming from Israel that the people's heart are once again turning towards God. May the light of the Lord shine upon them and bless them as prophecied and they become the priests of the nations as they should.