gender roles

[Joykins]

Such a can of worms. This is not a debate thread :P

People fall all over the spectrum when it comes to their views on gender roles. Many of the Pauline epistles speak on gender roles, especially in the church and within marriage. These teachings exist in dynamic tension with Paul's statement that "In Christ there is no male or female."

Various Christian groups have their own take on gender roles also, from those which insist that women should stay at home and have children and not speak in church to those which ordain women. This is of course not only an issue that affects women, as there are men's groups--from drum circles to Promise Keepers etc. that stress what it means also to be a Christian man and (often) husband.

I'm interested in getting your point of view about these gender roles, particularly in the context of Paul's teachings and how your own faith journey / church interprets them.

This is not a debate thread where you persuade someone you're right--I'm interested more in how these scriptures speak to you, personally, in hopes that I (and we) might gain some insight.

[catlover]

Such a can of worms. This is not a debate thread :P

People fall all over the spectrum when it comes to their views on gender roles. Many of the Pauline epistles speak on gender roles, especially in the church and within marriage. These teachings exist in dynamic tension with Paul's statement that "In Christ there is no male or female."

Various Christian groups have their own take on gender roles also, from those which insist that women should stay at home and have children and not speak in church to those which ordain women. This is of course not only an issue that affects women, as there are men's groups--from drum circles to Promise Keepers etc. that stress what it means also to be a Christian man and (often) husband.

I'm interested in getting your point of view about these gender roles, particularly in the context of Paul's teachings and how your own faith journey / church interprets them.

This is not a debate thread where you persuade someone you're right--I'm interested more in how these scriptures speak to you, personally, in hopes that I (and we) might gain some insight.

I don't know...many of the women in The Bible were untraditional: a pregnant unwed mother, business women, a warrior.

[edb19]

I can't help but wonder did I precipitate some of this with my post in the "What do you feel God has called you to do? thread.

It's a tough one for me - and one I've only recently come to some semblance of peace with. Note the some semblance - it's a very mixed bag for me.

When younger I truly considered the ministry (and have had some people tell me I missed my calling). However the denominations that ordain women are more liberal in their theology than I am and I know I wouldn't be comfortable with that.

At the same time I look at how Jesus related to women and know that He had a great reverence and respect for women. I used to (emphasis on the used to) discount Paul's qualifications for an elder and his admonitions regarding women teaching as "it's just Paul, it isn't as if Christ said it." Never mind that the entire Bible is inspired. Anyhow - I think that my excuse was wrong - but there you have it. Additionally - I'd look at the fact that most churches utilize women to teach their children - we're good enough to teach the church's future members, but not good enough to preach?

90% of the time I'm content with the interpretation of Scripture that says "no" to women pastoring, but that other 10%

As far as women in the workplace - I don't think Scripture truly speaks against that. That dreaded Proverbs 31 (I call her dreaded because her standard is so very high) woman certainly worked - and not just in the home.

Re: Promise Keepers - IMO their message is an oxymoron. They take men away from their families to encourage them become more involved with their families :scratch: :doh: :scratch: How odd is that?

[Joykins]

Edie, I understand where you are coming from, although I did not post this thread because of your statement in the other one.

I read an interesting book recently on the sociology of attitudes towards sex education by typically "liberal" and "conservative" viewpoints. The person who did the study came to the conclusion that the debate over sex education was in some ways a philosophical debate about sex (is sex "natural" or is it "sacred") and that to some people a lot of the issues seemed to have their root in gender roles. (The book is _When Sex Goes to School_ by Kristin Luker and I recommend it highly)

I've always wonder ed why people take Paul's qualifications for an elder and assume "the husband of one wife" means that the person must be a man as opposed to the person must be married, though.

[Izdaari]

As an individualist feminist (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/), I've never been too big on gender roles myself. I'll be the first to admit that has more to do with my personal experiences and worldview than it does with scripture. Not that I disregard scripture, mind you, but it's ambiguous on this subject, and so I have to rely on my own understanding to come to a conclusion... and that conclusion is that individuals, regardless of gender, can and should do whatever they feel led by God to, and whatever they do well.

[edb19]

I've always wonder ed why people take Paul's qualifications for an elder and assume "the husband of one wife" means that the person must be a man as opposed to the person must be married, though.

Some time ago my church was considering a second elder - there were a couple of members who expressed concern because the gentleman we were considering didn't have any children (he has 4 now).
1 Timothy 3: 4-5 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?)
I didn't agree with their reasoning and neither would I agree that a single man couldn't be called to the ministry. Whether or not I'd carry the exception to women in the pastorate I'm not sure. I have known some excellent women pastors BTW.


Once upon a time I had a really good book about Christ's friendships/relationships with women. I can't remember the exact name (and think I loaned it to my church library because I can't find it at home). Anyhow - it was very good and when I find the name and author will share it here. I think many would appreciate it.

edie

[MrJim]

I wonder why only chicks have posted here so far ;)

Anyhow I guess I take the traditional role on this~I don't want women as my pastors or priests. There are reasonable scriptural & traditional support for this imo.

Outside of the Church I don't want a woman as my primary doctor. Just a guy thing~I have an appointment Saturday with the Physician's assistant and she a chick, but it's just for the thyroid thing. I don't want a woman co-worker traveling with me at my job~10-12 hours in a van with a female coworker isn't good. Thing I find is that I am basically uncomfortable around women in these roles not because I am a misogynist~no, quite the contrary...women are my favorite of all God's creation. I rarely meet one that doesn't have some kind of charm and beauty that tends to throw me off my track. Truth is if I was in a room with all you lovely cf ladies I'd be hiding in a closet somewhere:blush: .

I think this effect is a little more common that you'd think, and may lay a bit at the root of the original order. Power-women infatuation can easily become a much larger issue than the usual women infatuation of male leaders.

Often it seems in the rush toward egalitarianism women can come off sounding like "I'm just as good as a man" when we men (mostly) don't want you to be as good as a man, because as women you are better. We don't feel comfortable treating you as "one of the guys" because, well, you're not and never can be~you're something more precious.

Now OTOH I've no problem with women as mayors and govenors and presidents~yeah Hillary's not an unattractive lady and it would be interesting to see how she'd fare~not my political preference (not that I have much of one)~but the sad part would be how abused and beat up she'd become, and I hate see anyone's wife & mom go through something like it~politics has approached an almost inhuman level these days. But are women tough enough for this job? I was in the operating room for both of my son's births, both were c-sects, and my bride went through both smiling~yeah, you're tough enough.

Women can and do everything, and I applaud women as doctors and factory workers and ministers and everything else, I simply choose where I submit myself in the scheme of things.

All differing POVs come down to one of these categories:
Conviction
Opinion
Prejudice
Taste
And this one is at "opinion" bordering on "conviction".

[Joykins]

Nice to hear from a man :thumbsup:

[Joykins]

. Additionally - I'd look at the fact that most churches utilize women to teach their children - we're good enough to teach the church's future members, but not good enough to preach?

If you want to go all subversive, remember the Jesuit saying, "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man." For a lot of people, Sunday school is all the theology they are taught. For even more, it is what sticks the most--even 30 years later I have to admit that many of the formative things about my faith were taught to me as a young child in Sunday School and in my Christian elementary school.

Look who is credited with incubating Timothy's faith.

2 Timothy 1:5

[Albion]

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[Albion]

My church's view, and my own, is that women are not to be ordained, but that they are equal in all the other areas that cause problems in other churches. For example, we have women controlling, if that's the word, the church boards, educational facilities, and many lay ministerial functions. Women are not counselled to be servants to their husbands or to be exclusively involved in child-rearing and homemaking. I suppose that puts us in the middle of your spectrum.

[Rowan]

I support male-only clergy. the man is the head of the house. Likewise, he should love his wife and Christ loves the Church.

"You want to know how to love your wife? Look at a crucifix."

Men are not the only ones seen as strong and male vocations (the priesthood, monasticism, etc.) aren't the only praised ones. Motherhood is revered as well. We have an example of a strong mother in full submission to the will of God in Mary. Recalling the Magnificat in the Gospel of Luke inspires me by showing me true feminine discipleship. Also, Proverbs praises the strong and diligent wife who cares for her household.

The roles also tend to overlap as well (maybe overlap is the wrong word). A Christian marriage described by Paul is a marriage where the partners are submissive to one another.

As far as the secular is concerned, I'm an "old-school" feminist myself -- I believe in equal access for men and women, as opposed to radical feminism that sees men and society as oppressive. I'm more of a sister of Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony than with most modern feminists today. That said, I have no problem with women in the household. I admire housewives.

Personally though, I choose to be a doctor. I want to take care of my household and help the sick.

I can't say I'm fully prepared for people who don't want women doctors, I have to admit.

[Criada]

I am part of our church leadership team - at the moment consisting of four women and two men. However, the lead elder is a man, and I do not think that a woman would ever be in that position. In fact , I do not think that a woman elder would be acceptable to the church - although those of us who are officially 'deacons' fulfill exactly the same function in practical terms.

I think that Paul's instruction 'the husband of one wife' is intended to be against polygamy, as opposed to against women. Similarly, the instruction about children does not mean that they are essential - just that they should not be unruly!

Women do preach - though it is under the authority of the elders. One or two members of the church still have a problem with this, but most are happy with it.

[Joykins]

I
I can't say I'm fully prepared for people who don't want women doctors, I have to admit.


That probably balances out as there are people who prefer woman doctors. When I am sick I am not particularly fussy, but I do like to have a female ob/gyn.

[MrJim]

That probably balances out as there are people who prefer woman doctors. When I am sick I am not particularly fussy, but I do like to have a female ob/gyn.

yeah, my wife has gotten partial to lady docs.

[Melethiel]

I would not want a woman as my pastor/priest.

[Izdaari]

I've been asked to pass on a reading selection on this subject: a "very excellent" online e-book on the subject called A Woman's Place (http://www.ccel.us/place.toc.html) (<== linked) by C.S. Cowles. If you can't read the whole thing, at least take a look at Chapter 6 (http://www.ccel.us/place.ch6.html) (<== linked).

If you prefer a hardcopy edition, it's available at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Womans-Place-C-S-Cowles/dp/0834119722/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195720625&sr=8-1

[SumTinWong]

I have had a woman doctor, and she was great. I have a male doctor now and he is great.

As far as the topic at hand it is tough for me to say. I guess I do not have a problem with it personally if there were to be a woman pastor at our church but i would find it hard to be consistent with scriptures. At least the interpretations i lean towards. I have read many papers and studies ont his and I can tell you that they have led me to bounce back and forth on this issue like a ping pong ball.

Add into this factor that i have an unsaved wife who is a feminist, a card carrying one with a family of feminists behind her and i tend to tread lightly around this subject. But if pressed into making a choice I would have to say that if i am a Bible Chrisitan or a Christian from traditions, it would be very nearly impossible to be comfortable in the sanctuary of a woman pastor as a man.

At the same time i think that a woman pastor is fine for a womans group and I dunno, I think that is acceptable.

[Colabomb]

This is one of my liberal tendencies, to offset just about everything else where I am conservative. I do believe that some women are called to ordained ministry.

But I believe it should be a true calling not a social liberation front. People politicize women in the ministry, when it should be a ministry, not a platform.

The questions should be theological only, not political or social.

And about doctors..... Frankly doctors have to do and know very sensitive/intimate things.

I am generally fine with a woman doctor. But I would not be comfortable with a woman giving me a hernia or prostate check for example.

And I know of several women who prefer women to handle their feminine health needs as opposed to men. Its not sexism, its comfort and in some cases propriety.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::hug:

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ:

I shall jump right into the middle of this discourse of gender equality unto God.

Sin is sin; and men and woman shall be Judged equally before God.

But as to relationships and for Roles based in gender, there are differences.

The question is ; is one gender blessed more or above, than the other?

The difference I shall point too, is that Woman are written, as to serve their husbands. Which feminists classify as a subservient role, and a bias of God. Which can appear as such.

But I believe the opposite is true. Woman in the subservient role, would be seen as the Least on earth of genders, being in subservience. But in the next life, and in heaven the opposite is true.

I base this on the doctrine of service. He who serves in this world, shall be the servant in the next. Service, is the blessing of God, in which Jesus was the servant unto all mankind. And then in heaven, King and God in heaven served by all.

And woman who serve and are humble in this world. Shall be exalted in heaven and shall be served for this, in the next life. Which woman shall receive special positions in the Kingdom of God in the next life, above men who were served in this world.

It Is said, that it is curse of God, to be a woman, and serve their husbands in this world; but they then, are above their male counter parts, in the next life.

I say woman are blessed above men, because of this service. For woman yes do serve on Earth, but then receive a higher position and blessing in next life, at the table of God, for eternity. And are more like Jesus in service unto mankind, in this world. This is my spiritually discerned opinion.

I pray my words do not offend.

God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:wave:
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[Joykins]

This is one of my liberal tendencies, to offset just about everything else where I am conservative. I do believe that some women are called to ordained ministry.

But I believe it should be a true calling not a social liberation front. People politicize women in the ministry, when it should be a ministry, not a platform.

The questions should be theological only, not political or social.

And about doctors..... Frankly doctors have to do and know very sensitive/intimate things.

I am generally fine with a woman doctor. But I would not be comfortable with a woman giving me a hernia or prostate check for example.

And I know of several women who prefer women to handle their feminine health needs as opposed to men. Its not sexism, its comfort and in some cases propriety.

I agree with this post.

I know that at least some women are given the gift for pastoral ministry from experience (experience being ministered to by a woman given that gift; this is not my gift).

[longhair75]

I have no preference in my health care provider. My present GP is male, but the last one was female (she left the provider that I use and moved out of state)

My denomination has female clergy. The Deacon from whom I took my Inquirer's Class when I converted was Female.

As far as my household, The Incomparable Sunflower and I have been equal partners for thirty five years. It works for us,