Christian traditions, how close are we?

[chvysb350]

Over the last couple of years I have felt led toward gaining a greater understanding of the Jewish culture. It has opened my eyes to a lot of misunderstandings and misrepresentations brought on by our readiness to accept what "Christian tradition" has taught us. I am not saying that anything written in the bible is incorrect, but rather that our understanding has been heavily clouded by our lack insight into the people who wrote it. Is there anyone else out there who has done any research into our "roots".

[crawfish]

I haven't done any heavy research, but I have studied ancient Jewish culture some for that very reason. Reading the Midrash was quite illuminating (and amusing).

Do you have anything specific to discuss?

[Splayd]

I've spent years studying 1st Century Jewish culture to gain a better understanding of the NT and I basically agree. It's clear that our understanding and practice often differ markedly than that of the original writers and recipients.

When I first started to recognise this, it troubled me very deeply. As I've worked it through with God, I'm realising how little the things matter. The problem isn't the things themselves, but rather our tendency to put undue emphasis on them.

Consider communion for example. Are we meant to use leavened or unleavened bread, wine or juice? Is it meant to be shared once a week every week, every service, every day, once a year or just regularly? One cup, many cups, one loaf, little pieces?

There are answers to these questions and more, but what are they answers to? Often our question is simply "What did they do then?" Even then, many differ on their answer and most get it wrong. We get preoccupied with the form of our worship and lose focus of the substance of our worship, the purpose of our worship, the actual worship itself. I'm not saying the answers don't matter at all, but that they aren't what ultimately matters.

[- DRA -]

Over the last couple of years I have felt led toward gaining a greater understanding of the Jewish culture. It has opened my eyes to a lot of misunderstandings and misrepresentations brought on by our readiness to accept what "Christian tradition" has taught us. I am not saying that anything written in the bible is incorrect, but rather that our understanding has been heavily clouded by our lack insight into the people who wrote it. Is there anyone else out there who has done any research into our "roots".

I believe 2 Thessalonians 2:15 helps us understand which traditions we should focus on and follow.

My roots are from Gentile heritage. However, I can still "learn" from the O.T. writings (Rom. 15:4) and how the men/women of old either obeyed or did NOT obey God, and how God reacted. For sure, the Bible admonishes us to not follow in the footsteps of the unfaithful (1 Cor. 10:1-13).

Do you have specific issues you would like to discuss?

[chvysb350]

I don't have anything specific to discuss. If you do live by the spirit and not by the flesh, if you have been born again by the spirit and live by grace, then the Spirit himself will teach us. There are many "Christians" who still try to live by the law, and if you are going to bind yourself to the law, maybe you should realize how detailed the law was. Things were done a certain way at a certain time, for a reason. The Sabbath, for instance, was honored on the evening of the sixth day into the seventh day, by the Jewish calender. This was a very high priority law. We tend to do what we want on what ever day. Yet many won't have anything to do with someone who drinks or has been divorced.
I believe that this puts one more nail in the coffin for those who choose to live by the law. All the more reason to repent and come to the feet of Jesus!!!! Glory to God that He is full of grace in our ignorance! I give thanks to Him because He is my righteousness.
There is one more thing I'd like to add. It can be exciting to learn about God's chosen people and the great passion that comes with some of their traditions. I heard a rabbi talking about the Jewish new year, it just sounded cool. They do still get excited about God!

[elijahorao]

I don't have anything specific to discuss. If you do live by the spirit and not by the flesh, if you have been born again by the spirit and live by grace, then the Spirit himself will teach us. There are many "Christians" who still try to live by the law, and if you are going to bind yourself to the law, maybe you should realize how detailed the law was. Things were done a certain way at a certain time, for a reason. The Sabbath, for instance, was honored on the evening of the sixth day into the seventh day, by the Jewish calender. This was a very high priority law. We tend to do what we want on what ever day. Yet many won't have anything to do with someone who drinks or has been divorced.
I believe that this puts one more nail in the coffin for those who choose to live by the law. All the more reason to repent and come to the feet of Jesus!!!! Glory to God that He is full of grace in our ignorance! I give thanks to Him because He is my righteousness.
There is one more thing I'd like to add. It can be exciting to learn about God's chosen people and the great passion that comes with some of their traditions. I heard a rabbi talking about the Jewish new year, it just sounded cool. They do still get excited about God!
The weekly sabbath of the seventh day was a bad example of Jewish tradition, because it is not a law for jews exclusively. It sits square in the middle of the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist. A point that is noteworthy, is that The seventh day was declared 'holy' during creation week at The beginning BEFORE jews existed, AND BEFORE sin entered the world. Jesus as Messiah/Lamb of God undid the damage done by sin, but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments. It was a sin when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then. This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws. As Jesus said; "The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews) It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews. It is a popular error of secular christianity to dismiss the 'law of relationships/ten commandments' in order to justify their chosen 'iniquities'.
However, there is some value in studying the ceremonies that the Jews made into their traditions, because they point clearly to Christ, and make you wonder how it is that they did not recognise Him.
I would not be keen to 'do' those ceremonies however.

[Apollos1]

To elijahorao –

Looks like we have some “Judaizing” going on here…

Elijahorao said - The weekly sabbath of the seventh day… …is not a law for jews exclusively.

Well – yes it was.
WHO was the Sabbath given to? - Israel - Exodus 16:29, 31:16,31.
WHY was the Sabbath given? Because Israel had no rest in Egypt and God delivered them out of the land - Deut. 5:15
Only the Jews had the Law… cf. Romans 3:28-29.

Elijahorao said - A point that is noteworthy, is that The seventh day was declared 'holy' during creation week…

So what, the “sabbath” was not given until 2,000 years later.
Where was the Sabbath given? - At “Sinai” - Exodus 16, Exodus 20:8.
What was the Sabbath?– It was a SIGN between God and Israel Exodus - 20:12,20, 31:16,31, Deut. 5:15.

Elijahorao said - It was a sin when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then.

This only proves that murder was wrong at that time – not that the “10 commandments” existed per se – including the “sabbath” day. This is inductive reasoning.

Elijahorao said - "The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews)…

Apparently it was made for men… who were Jews.

Elijahorao said - It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews.

The passages I have provided above teach that the Old covenant that included the “TC” was given to the Jews only. There is a new covenant for today with deeper and more spiritually based principles than those engraved in stone, based on better promises and a better sacrifice. This covenant is for all men!

Elijahorao said - It is a popular error of secular christianity to dismiss the 'law of relationships/ten commandments' in order to justify their chosen 'iniquities'.

It is popular error by those that worship the “10 commandments” and worship the “sabbath” to claim what you do. None of you teach is supported by scripture – the old or new. Would have us fall from grace and place a yoke of burden upon us no (Jewish) man could ever bear??

I do not want to hi-jack this thread any more than you and I have, so if you desire to discuss these matters further, start a thread and invite me over. Thankx!

[elijahorao]

The weekly sabbath of the seventh day was a bad example of Jewish tradition, because it is not a law for jews exclusively. It sits square in the middle of the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist. A point that is noteworthy, is that The seventh day was declared 'holy' during creation week at The beginning BEFORE jews existed, AND BEFORE sin entered the world. Jesus as Messiah/Lamb of God undid the damage done by sin, but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments. It was a sin when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then. This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws. As Jesus said; "The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews) It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews. It is a popular error of secular christianity to dismiss the 'law of relationships/ten commandments' in order to justify their chosen 'iniquities'.
However, there is some value in studying the ceremonies that the Jews made into their traditions, because they point clearly to Christ, and make you wonder how it is that they did not recognise Him.
I would not be keen to 'do' those ceremonies however.
Apollos1 at the outset of your response to my post you chose to not address that the sabbath was holy from the first seventh day on. What you pointed out was that it was given LATER to the children of Israel as they came out and you quoted Exodus 16:29 which says; "
Exodus, chapter 16:8 "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

29 "See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."

By this we see that the law existed BEFORE Sinia. Naturaly it was wrong for Cain to murder Abel, the commandment "Thou shall not murder" is a 'given' and what we learn from this is that 'moral law' should not have to be written in order to be recognised, but the moral condition of the children of Israel was so corrupted that they needed it written in order to recognise it as an offence either against God or against mankind.

Is God a waster of words? Why bother mentioning the holiness of the seventh day at creation to mankind if He had no intention for man to honour it? Also, it is unrealistic to tie weekly sabbathkeeping into atonement, because the weekly sabbath began before sin entered the world and atonement was needed.
As for me 'judaizing' (as you say) and hijacking this thread (as you imply). Didn't you notice this input;
"However, there is some value in studying the ceremonies that the Jews made into their traditions, because they point clearly to Christ, and make you wonder how it is that they did not recognise Him.
I would not be keen to 'do' those ceremonies however."?

I did not intend hijacking, I intended contributing and the reason I contributed at modest length on the sabbath factor was because I knew it was poorly understood by many so I gave appropriate 'in context' input in order to demonstrate where I was coming from.
To claim that I "worship the ten commandments and worship the sabbath" is preposterous. How could anyone with any sense of comprehension 'worship' anything other than Our Creator if they keep the ten commandments? We have a command against idolatry in command number 2 and an instruction to 'remember' Our Creator in commandment 4. By the way, this demonstrates that the fourth commandment is for all flesh, because all flesh is created. How do you deal with Isaiah 66:23? Aren't you going to be a citizen of The New heavens and New earth? If you are, which company will you be in? Verse 23 or verse 24?
Perhaps you have a problem with the company in Revelation 14:12. Are they 'judaizers'?
Come on, be fair. I made a contribution with what I believe to be worthy input and some may find it worth looking into properly.
As I said before, there is a lot to be learned from studying the things the jews were told to practice that ultimately became their traditions, but I wouldn't want to 'DO' them.

[Apollos1]

Elijahorao –

I did not mean to suggest that you inteneded or single-handedly hijack this thread. You had plenty of help from me. But because you did not choose to take this discussion to a separate thread as I suggested, I feel I have no choice but to continue with you here…

Eli said - Apollos1 at the outset of your response to my post you chose to not address that the sabbath was holy from the first seventh day on.

But I did address that. Although the 7th day of the week was sanctified by God in Genesis 2:3, I showed that the “sabbath” was not given for 2,000 years - until Israel came to Sinai. See Exodus 16, Exodus 20:8. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was NOT holy from the first 7th day on. If you have any proof, please present that for me. That’s all I ask.

I also gave collaborating scripture that showed what the “sabbath” was – a SIGN beyween God and Israel, Exodus - 20:12,20, 31:16,31, Deut. 5:15. Israel did not exist for that 2,000 years either. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was not around BEFORE Israel was around.


Eli said - What you pointed out was that it was given LATER to the children of Israel as they came out and you quoted Exodus 16:29 which says; "
Exodus, chapter 16:8 "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

Exodus 16:29 shows just that… the “sabbath” was given LATER – at Sinai, not in Genesis. It was not given BEFORE this time. What passage can you use to prove the “sabbath” was given BEFORE Sinai?? You can make all the inferences you want about God “sanctifying” the 7th day in Genesis, but you won’t find the “sabbath” until you get to Sinai. God set the 7th day apart in Genesis for use at a LATER time – at Sinai !

Your inference to “How long…” has no context back to Genesis or to any prior observance of the “sabbath”. Moses had just given the “sabbath” to Israel – see Exodus 16:23, 26. Some of the people violated it in verse 27. Verse 28 shows God asking “How long…?” will they refuse to obey it.

Eli said - By this we see that the law existed BEFORE Sinia. Naturaly it was wrong for Cain to murder Abel, the commandment "Thou shall not murder" is a 'given' and what we learn from this is that 'moral law' should not have to be written in order to be recognised, but the moral condition of the children of Israel was so corrupted that they needed it written in order to recognise it as an offence either against God or against mankind.

Your first remark is the one without any contextual bearing. Your next remark is but rationalization created in the attempt to justify your position that “the Law” was given before this time. Unfortunately you do not have even ONE scripture to back this thinking up. Whatever laws, moral or otherwise, that may have been given to man to follow by God before Sinai, we know that the “TC” law was given to Israel only at Sinai – cf. Deut. 5:1-15 with emphasis here on verses 1-4. You have only conjecture.

Eli said - Is God a waster of words? Why bother mentioning the holiness of the seventh day at creation to mankind if He had no intention for man to honour it?

I don’t think God wastes words… or time. But do you have an applicable point here? I believe God’s intention was to use the 7th day at a later time – this is why God set it apart (sanctified it). We see that come to fruition at Sinai. We do not see a sabbath at any sooner time. So does God waste time?

Eli said - Also, it is unrealistic to tie weekly sabbathkeeping into atonement, because the weekly sabbath began before sin entered the world and atonement was needed.

This begs the question. You have given ZERO proof from scripture that the “weekly sabbath” began before sin entred the world. Can you prove WHEN you think the “sabbath” actually was given? If so, we can discuss your other point here.

Eli said - As for me 'judaizing' (as you say)…

Let’s repeat some of the things you mentioned in that first post of yours…
-the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist.
-but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments.
-when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then.
-This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws.
-"The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews)
-It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews.
You very much infer that we should be following the “TC” law today, that the “TC” law did not ever cease for all men to observe, and that all should observe the “sabbath” today. My accusation of your “Judaizing” seems accurate enough to me. Seems to me you want to mix Judaism and Christianity – not unlike those read about in Acts 15.

Eli said - To claim that I "worship the ten commandments and worship the sabbath" is preposterous. How could anyone with any sense of comprehension 'worship' anything other than Our Creator if they keep the ten commandments?

Bear with me here. I believe you have a misplaced priority and misplaced emphasis on the “TC” law and the “sabbath” it contains. These two items have become the two things “religious” items that you endeavor to preserve and promote. Your focus of study is on these two items and why man today MUST have and observe them. You have placed these two items on a level of highesy importance, even above above God and the remainder of His will – although you believe them to be God’s will. These reasons are why I say that you “worship” the “sabbath” – the majority of your religious effort and its end result is to maintain these –2- items and convert all men to them today. They are your “idols” !

Eli said - How do you deal with Isaiah 66:23?

In a word… the worship of God at a future time (which I believe is the context of the verse), is expressed in OT terms so that the audience of Isaiah (the Jews) would more fully appreciate that God will always be worshipped and worshipped acceptably even after their ceremonial law and temple service are abolished.

Eli said - Perhaps you have a problem with the company in Revelation 14:12. Are they 'judaizers'?

I have no problem with them. The word “commandments” does not always refer to the “Ten” commandments of the OLD covenant as you are disposed to think. This is but more proof that your “idols” cause you to have a skewed view of the scriptures. You can not see anything else.

Eli said - Come on, be fair. I made a contribution with what I bEli saideve to be worthy input and some may find it worth looking into properly.

Given the amount of scriptural proof you have (not) presented for your position in this discussion, I think I have been quite fair.

Eli said - As I said before, there is a lot to be learned from studying the things the jews were told to practice that ultimately became their traditions, but I wouldn't want to 'DO' them.

Unless I miss my guess, you are saying that the “ceremonial” aspects of the Law have passed away, but the “moral” aspects remain – the “moral” aspects being the “TC” and the “sabbath”. I will tell you that NO aspects of “the Law” remain today for any man anywhere. Christ died wanting to establish a NEW covenant with all men. The old covenant, established only with the Jews, has no place in God’s providence today. The ceremonial/moral aspects of that OLD covenant are irrelevant now. This means there is no “sabbath” for anyone today – but there is a “rest” promised to all of the faithful in Christ.

So be a "Gideon" and tear your idols down.........

[elijahorao]

Elijahorao –

I did not mean to suggest that you inteneded or single-handedly hijack this thread. You had plenty of help from me. But because you did not choose to take this discussion to a separate thread as I suggested, I feel I have no choice but to continue with you here…

Eli said - Apollos1 at the outset of your response to my post you chose to not address that the sabbath was holy from the first seventh day on.

But I did address that. Although the 7th day of the week was sanctified by God in Genesis 2:3, I showed that the “sabbath” was not given for 2,000 years - until Israel came to Sinai. See Exodus 16, Exodus 20:8. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was NOT holy from the first 7th day on. If you have any proof, please present that for me. That’s all I ask.

I also gave collaborating scripture that showed what the “sabbath” was – a SIGN beyween God and Israel, Exodus - 20:12,20, 31:16,31, Deut. 5:15. Israel did not exist for that 2,000 years either. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was not around BEFORE Israel was around.


Eli said - What you pointed out was that it was given LATER to the children of Israel as they came out and you quoted Exodus 16:29 which says; "
Exodus, chapter 16:8 "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

Exodus 16:29 shows just that… the “sabbath” was given LATER – at Sinai, not in Genesis. It was not given BEFORE this time. What passage can you use to prove the “sabbath” was given BEFORE Sinai?? You can make all the inferences you want about God “sanctifying” the 7th day in Genesis, but you won’t find the “sabbath” until you get to Sinai. God set the 7th day apart in Genesis for use at a LATER time – at Sinai !

Your inference to “How long…” has no context back to Genesis or to any prior observance of the “sabbath”. Moses had just given the “sabbath” to Israel – see Exodus 16:23, 26. Some of the people violated it in verse 27. Verse 28 shows God asking “How long…?” will they refuse to obey it.

Eli said - By this we see that the law existed BEFORE Sinia. Naturaly it was wrong for Cain to murder Abel, the commandment "Thou shall not murder" is a 'given' and what we learn from this is that 'moral law' should not have to be written in order to be recognised, but the moral condition of the children of Israel was so corrupted that they needed it written in order to recognise it as an offence either against God or against mankind.

Your first remark is the one without any contextual bearing. Your next remark is but rationalization created in the attempt to justify your position that “the Law” was given before this time. Unfortunately you do not have even ONE scripture to back this thinking up. Whatever laws, moral or otherwise, that may have been given to man to follow by God before Sinai, we know that the “TC” law was given to Israel only at Sinai – cf. Deut. 5:1-15 with emphasis here on verses 1-4. You have only conjecture.

Eli said - Is God a waster of words? Why bother mentioning the holiness of the seventh day at creation to mankind if He had no intention for man to honour it?

I don’t think God wastes words… or time. But do you have an applicable point here? I believe God’s intention was to use the 7th day at a later time – this is why God set it apart (sanctified it). We see that come to fruition at Sinai. We do not see a sabbath at any sooner time. So does God waste time?

Eli said - Also, it is unrealistic to tie weekly sabbathkeeping into atonement, because the weekly sabbath began before sin entered the world and atonement was needed.

This begs the question. You have given ZERO proof from scripture that the “weekly sabbath” began before sin entred the world. Can you prove WHEN you think the “sabbath” actually was given? If so, we can discuss your other point here.

Eli said - As for me 'judaizing' (as you say)…

Let’s repeat some of the things you mentioned in that first post of yours…
-the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist.
-but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments.
-when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then.
-This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws.
-"The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews)
-It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews.
You very much infer that we should be following the “TC” law today, that the “TC” law did not ever cease for all men to observe, and that all should observe the “sabbath” today. My accusation of your “Judaizing” seems accurate enough to me. Seems to me you want to mix Judaism and Christianity – not unlike those read about in Acts 15.

Eli said - To claim that I "worship the ten commandments and worship the sabbath" is preposterous. How could anyone with any sense of comprehension 'worship' anything other than Our Creator if they keep the ten commandments?

Bear with me here. I believe you have a misplaced priority and misplaced emphasis on the “TC” law and the “sabbath” it contains. These two items have become the two things “religious” items that you endeavor to preserve and promote. Your focus of study is on these two items and why man today MUST have and observe them. You have placed these two items on a level of highesy importance, even above above God and the remainder of His will – although you believe them to be God’s will. These reasons are why I say that you “worship” the “sabbath” – the majority of your religious effort and its end result is to maintain these –2- items and convert all men to them today. They are your “idols” !

Eli said - How do you deal with Isaiah 66:23?

In a word… the worship of God at a future time (which I believe is the context of the verse), is expressed in OT terms so that the audience of Isaiah (the Jews) would more fully appreciate that God will always be worshipped and worshipped acceptably even after their ceremonial law and temple service are abolished.

Eli said - Perhaps you have a problem with the company in Revelation 14:12. Are they 'judaizers'?

I have no problem with them. The word “commandments” does not always refer to the “Ten” commandments of the OLD covenant as you are disposed to think. This is but more proof that your “idols” cause you to have a skewed view of the scriptures. You can not see anything else.

Eli said - Come on, be fair. I made a contribution with what I bEli saideve to be worthy input and some may find it worth looking into properly.

Given the amount of scriptural proof you have (not) presented for your position in this discussion, I think I have been quite fair.

Eli said - As I said before, there is a lot to be learned from studying the things the jews were told to practice that ultimately became their traditions, but I wouldn't want to 'DO' them.

Unless I miss my guess, you are saying that the “ceremonial” aspects of the Law have passed away, but the “moral” aspects remain – the “moral” aspects being the “TC” and the “sabbath”. I will tell you that NO aspects of “the Law” remain today for any man anywhere. Christ died wanting to establish a NEW covenant with all men. The old covenant, established only with the Jews, has no place in God’s providence today. The ceremonial/moral aspects of that OLD covenant are irrelevant now. This means there is no “sabbath” for anyone today – but there is a “rest” promised to all of the faithful in Christ.

So be a "Gideon" and tear your idols down.........

not worth it

[crawfish]

The weekly sabbath of the seventh day was a bad example of Jewish tradition, because it is not a law for jews exclusively. It sits square in the middle of the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist. A point that is noteworthy, is that The seventh day was declared 'holy' during creation week at The beginning BEFORE jews existed, AND BEFORE sin entered the world. Jesus as Messiah/Lamb of God undid the damage done by sin, but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments. It was a sin when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then. This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws. As Jesus said; "The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews) It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews. It is a popular error of secular christianity to dismiss the 'law of relationships/ten commandments' in order to justify their chosen 'iniquities'.
However, there is some value in studying the ceremonies that the Jews made into their traditions, because they point clearly to Christ, and make you wonder how it is that they did not recognise Him.
I would not be keen to 'do' those ceremonies however.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Romans 14 states pretty unquivicably that celebration of the Sabbath is an issue of "personal faith" and not one of law:

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

The command to honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy was given to Israel at a specific point in time. Perhaps some had honored it as a statement of "personal faith" before, but it did not become a matter of "corporate" faith until Moses came down from Sinai. And, as I mentioned earlier, with the new covenant the honoring of the Sabbath has again become a personal matter.

[elijahorao]

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Romans 14 states pretty unquivicably that celebration of the Sabbath is an issue of "personal faith" and not one of law:



The command to honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy was given to Israel at a specific point in time. Perhaps some had honored it as a statement of "personal faith" before, but it did not become a matter of "corporate" faith until Moses came down from Sinai. And, as I mentioned earlier, with the new covenant the honoring of the Sabbath has again become a personal matter.
MATHEW 5:17": Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

"18": For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."


Is all fulfilled???

There is only one law that has been taken away/fulfilled and it is mentioned here in HEBREWS 10;
1": For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

"2": For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

"3": But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

"4": For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

"5": Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

"6": In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

"7": Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

"8": Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

"9": Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

"10": By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

"11": And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:"

The law concerning relationship conduct remains as confirmed here in;
James, chapter 2



"1": My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

"2": For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

"3": And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

"4": Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

"5": Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

"6": But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

"7": Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

"8": If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

"9": But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

"10": For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

"11": For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

"12": So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

"13": For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

"14": What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

"15": If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

"16": And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

"17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

"19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

"20": But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

"21": Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"22": Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

"23": And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

"24": Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

"25": Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

"26": For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. "

You see then that relationship law NEVER ENDS.

Can't you see the difference between the ceremonial laws which were a shadow of Jesus' atonement for us and the ten commandments which are guidlines about how we treat humans and God?

[crawfish]

Then you have a conflict, because Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath.

I believe that Jesus' death and resurrection were the fulfillment of the law. I also believe that the Sermon on the Mount was not a statement of law but a precursor to the concept of grace; Jesus is showing the insufficiency of trying to live a perfect life under the law; how can keeping the letter of the law save you if the heart isn't right?

[elijahorao]

Then you have a conflict, because Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath.

I believe that Jesus' death and resurrection were the fulfillment of the law. I also believe that the Sermon on the Mount was not a statement of law but a precursor to the concept of grace; Jesus is showing the insufficiency of trying to live a perfect life under the law; how can keeping the letter of the law save you if the heart isn't right?
"Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath."????????

SCRIPTURE PLEASE!!!!

[elijahorao]

You are failing to recognise TWO characteristics of 'saved' 'converted' people.
1. They are saved by God's grace through Jesus and Jesus only
2. Their 'conduct' is a living testimony of their salvation.

[Apollos1]

"Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath."????????

SCRIPTURE PLEASE!!!!

If you will notice, I have handily proven above that the sabbath was not given until Israel came to Sinai, and that it was a SIGN between God and Israel, because Israel had no rest in Egypt,

Why don't you please answer my points BEFORE you start requesting scripture from anyone?

The Gentiles NEVER were required to observe ANY sabbath at ANY time.

Today, no one is required to observe any sabbath day.

So........... scriptures please!!!

[Apollos1]

MATHEW 5:17 - “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Q: Is all fulfilled???

Answer: Yes!

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets in verse 17. In verse 18 Jesus said it would take until heaven and earth passed away for even one jot or tittle to pass from the law – until He fullfilled ALL.

Luke 24:44 - "And he said unto them, These are my
words which I spake unto you, while I was yet withyou,
that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are
written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the
psalms, concerning me."

Jesus said He had fullfilled ALL. Thus, with all things
having been fulfilled the Law and the prophets were
ready to pass away. This happened at "the cross".

[elijahorao]

"Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath."????????

SCRIPTURE PLEASE!!!!

If you will notice, I have handily proven above that the sabbath was not given until Israel came to Sinai, and that it was a SIGN between God and Israel, because Israel had no rest in Egypt,

Why don't you please answer my points BEFORE you start requesting scripture from anyone?

The Gentiles NEVER were required to observe ANY sabbath at ANY time.

Today, no one is required to observe any sabbath day.

So........... scriptures please!!!


You 'proved' nothing. Just because you 'convinced' yourself, does not constitute 'proof'. 'Proof' when speaking of theological things is demonstrated with scripture 'in context'.

You ask me for scripture?
Sure!
One word "REMEMBER"
In the context of sabbath keeping, where is the scripture for 'FORGET'?

[elijahorao]

MATHEW 5:17 - “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Q: Is all fulfilled???

Answer: Yes!

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets in verse 17. In verse 18 Jesus said it would take until heaven and earth passed away for even one jot or tittle to pass from the law – until He fullfilled ALL.

Luke 24:44 - "And he said unto them, These are my
words which I spake unto you, while I was yet withyou,
that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are
written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the
psalms, concerning me."

Jesus said He had fullfilled ALL. Thus, with all things
having been fulfilled the Law and the prophets were
ready to pass away. This happened at "the cross".
You might convince someone with that line of reasoning, that is why it is good to balance the scripture with;
Hebrews, chapter 2:8 "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see NOT YET all things put under him. "




Notice the NOT YET???? it is evident that what Jesus has fulfilled, is;
A. The atonement.
B. A perfect demonstration of how to walk in righteous conduct. Jesus did not dismiss the sabbath, He demonstrated correct observance and principle of it. He owned/ownes it as "His 'holy' day".

[Apollos1]

Eli –

I wish you could give that sabbath “idol” up. All I can say is that you are in deep denial to cling to that “sabbath” of yours when you said...

You 'proved' nothing. Just because you 'convinced' yourself, does not constitute 'proof'. 'Proof' when speaking of theological things is demonstrated with scripture 'in context'.

Now I must say… LOL !!! Given your yet-articulated non-rebuttal of my prior posts, that is about all that can be directly said about your reply!

At the moment, your talk is cheap. But I will give you yet another opportunity to explain where and how I took the following –2- points out of context….

-The 7th day of the week was sanctified by God in Genesis 2:3. I showed that the “sabbath” was not given for 2,000 years – not until Israel came to Sinai. See Exodus 16:29, Exodus 20:8. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was NOT holy from the first 7th day on.
What is taken out of context??????????????????????????

-I gave collaborating scripture that showed what the “sabbath” was – a SIGN beyween God and Israel, Exodus - 20:12,20, 31:16,31, Deut. 5:15.
Israel did not exist for that 2,000 years. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was not around BEFORE Israel was around. What is taken out of context??????????????????

Hey Eli, this is only TWO points. Prove me wrong. Prove me out of context. For that matter, PROVE any of the ridiculous things you have said about me or your precious “sabbath”. Can you do that? Hmmmmmmmm????

And please – no “sabbath sophistry”. Don’t make vague reference to passages such as Genesis 2:3 and make improper inferences like the “sabbath” has always been observed and was always given. And proceed to state (without support) that the “sabbath” was given to all men and for all time, blah,blah,blah. The readers here are too smart to buy into vague references and improper/misplaced applications.
- - - - - - - - - -

Hebrews 2:8 – “Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.”

You used this verse as if to indicate there was something yet unfulfilled by Christ after Christ clearly explained in Luke 24:44 that ALL things had been fulfilled “which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.” Remember – this is in my last post?

What connection do you make between Christ’s FULFILLING all things and those things Christ has authority over that are not yet subjected unto Him? Is there a connection? Are you saying that because some things have not yet been subjected unto Christ that some things are not yet fulfilled? Subjection versus fulfillment – why don’t you explain Eli?????? The words don’t mean the same thing.

It is at this point I will ask you to “remember” Matthew 5:17 where Christ said He came to fulfill the law. Did Christ do that? I will ask you to “remember” that Christ in Matthew 5:18 said that nothing in the law would pass away UNTIL he fulfilled all things. Then I would ask you to “remember” Luke 24:44 again.

Please “remember” to reply directly to the texts this time. You did not “remember” last time.

[elijahorao]

You said; "I showed that the “sabbath” was not given for 2,000 years – not until Israel came to Sinai."

Well you didn't show any such thing. What you did show, was Exodus 16 which 'proves' by scripture that the 'sabbath commandment' including "God's law" existed BEFORE Israel came to Mt Sinai. Well done. I think that is called 'shooting yourself in the foot'.

You also say; "Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was NOT holy from the first 7th day on."

HOW DO YOU CONCLUDE THIS IN LIGHT OF A SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THIS;


Genesis 2:3 "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

DOES 'SANCTIFY' MEAN 'HID' or 'IGNORED' or 'MADE COMMON'?



Then you said; "Israel did not exist for that 2,000 years. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was not around BEFORE Israel was around."

Oh!?! What does 'ISRAEL' mean?

<H3>Genesis 32:28 "And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

It means to 'rule', 'prevail', 'have strength with' God. (So we see that 'Israel' DID EXIST BEFORE YOU SAID) and can of course be traced right back through Noah to Adam (who also kept the seventh day holy AND knew it was wrong to kill)

SO! this name was given to 'Jacob'.

And who is Jacob? Jacob is Isaac's seed.

And who is Isaac?

<H3>Genesis 17:19 "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."

EVERLASTING COVENANT?
Hebrews, chapter 13:20 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT,"


ISAAC IS ABRAHAM'S SEED WITH WHOM THE EVERLASTING COVENANT IS ESTABLISHED.

ROMANS 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:

"7": Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

"8": That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED."


As for the charge of 'idolatry', you would do well to look to yourself, who fits far better the characters described in Ezekiel 8:16, because, keeping sabbath in spirit and truth IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN A GUARD AGAINST IDOLATRY. (of which 'sun worship' is the most abominable form) Sabbath keeping reminds us that we are 'creatures', 'created beings' and this keeps us focussed on THE CREATOR of heaven and earth, the seas and the fountains of waters and every living thing.

HOW CAN THAT BE IDOLATRY???????



</H3></H3>As for Hebrews 2:8, it is clear that what is unfulfilled is "everything being put under His feet", but in the day described in ISAIAH66:23, "ALL FLESH" shall be under His feet. NO MISTAKING THE 'CONTEXT' THERE AT ALL.

[elijahorao]

Saying the weekly sabbath "was nailed to the cross" is a 'catch cry' of those who cry "grace without law!" with no scripture to support it (indeed, James politely rebukes this);

JAMES 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

"19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

"20": But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

"21": Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"22": Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

"23": And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

"24": Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

"25": Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

"26": For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


. What was nailed to the cross was Jesus, Our Sacrifice/Passover, Who put an end to the ceremonial law forever, in that He 'fulfilled it'.

[elijahorao]

MATHEW 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"19": Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

[Apollos1]

Eli –

Atta boy! Give some scripture for what you believe. Hopefully repeated exposure will bring you a lot closer to the truth. Hey, I can always hope for you.

MATTHEW 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Why do you continue to have issues with this verse? Jesus said HE came to FULFILL in verse 17. Jesus said the law could not pass UNTIL all be fulfilled in verse 18. In Luke 24:44 Jesus said he HAD FULFILLED all things – therefore the law COULD pass!

The “THEREFORE” in Matthew 5 refers back to “till all be fulfilled”. The law was to be observed UNTIL all things were fulfilled, and then the law could pass.
- - - - - - - - - -

Apollos said - "I showed that the “sabbath” was not given for 2,000 years – not until Israel came to Sinai."

Eli said in response - Well you didn't show any such thing. What you did show, was Exodus 16 which 'proves' by scripture that the 'sabbath commandment' including "God's law" existed BEFORE Israel came to Mt Sinai. Well done. I think that is called 'shooting yourself in the foot'.


What I know is that from Genesis 2:3 forward to Exodus 16, there is NO mention of the “sabbath”. There is not ONE example of “sabbath” observance and not ONE mention that it should be observed. Now you seem like a resourceful chap when it comes to your idol – find just ONE mention or observance of the “sabbath” between Genesis 2:3 and Exodus 16:23.

Helpful hints: Get a concordance and look up “sabbath”. Finger that page up and down – you ain’t gonna find your idol anywhere before Exodus 16:23. She ain’t there!

Next, as you have resources to do it, try an electronic search. Maybe you can get to Blue Letter Bible online, e-Sword, or some other free resource if you don’t have a pricey Bible program already. ANY of these will show NO SABBATH prior to Exodus 16:23 ! Now WHY is that Eli? Will you tell me, hmmmm?

Therefore I say again – I know that the “sabbath” was NOT given in Genesis 2:3 and that the sabbath was not observed before given to only Israel as a “sign” at Sinai. Why? Because this is the Bible record!

Eli goes on to ask… HOW DO YOU CONCLUDE THIS IN LIGHT OF A SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THIS;
Genesis 2:3 -"And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."
DOES 'SANCTIFY' MEAN 'HID' or 'IGNORED' or 'MADE COMMON'?.....

The definition is: Sanctify (from Strong) – (Hb. = “qadash”) - appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), X wholly.

So Eli, what is your point? Do not expect me to “read into” the passage as you do. I don’t serve that idol! I say God set apart/dedicated the SEVENTH day for future use. As God RESTED (ceased from creating) on the SEVENTH day, so did Israel (only) was given a “rest” beginning 2,000 years later.
- - - - - - - - - -

Apollos said - "Israel did not exist for that 2,000 years. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was not around BEFORE Israel was around." [God gave the “rest” to Israel because Israel had no rest in Egypt – Deut. 5:15. This “rest” was a “sign” between God and Israel – Ex. 31:13,17].

Eli responded - Oh!?! What does 'ISRAEL' mean? Genesis 32:28…And who is Jacob? Jacob is Isaac's seed.
And who is Isaac? Genesis 17:19… ... ... ...

The definition is: “Israel” – literally, he will rule as God;a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.

Eli said - - -EVERLASTING COVENANT?
Hebrews 13:20 - "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT," ... ... ... ...

The “sabbath” containing (old) covenant made only with the physical posterity of Jacob (Israel) at Sinai was ratified with the blood of bulls and goats Heb. 9:12-14,18-22, 10:1-4,19.

The “everlasting” covenant mentioned here in Hebrews 13 has been ratified with the blood of Christ – Hebrews 9:12. Hence, it is a different covenant than that made with the physical posterity of Jacob. The “everlasting” covenant has no “sabbath” provisions of any kind included in it.

Eli used –
ISAAC IS ABRAHAM'S SEED WITH WHOM THE EVERLASTING COVENANT IS ESTABLISHED.

ROMANS 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:
7: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED."

The “everlasting” covenant (Heb. 13) is for ALL those that are “children of the promise”. These are those who by faith have become sons of God, heirs according to the promise – Galatians 3:7-29. cf. Romans 2:28-29, Col. 2:11, Philippians 3:3. The “Israel” mentioned in these verses is not a group dependent upon a physical relationship of linage for their identity. This “Israel has a spiritual relationship based upon faith in Christ, and therefore can be accurately referred the “spiritual Israel” of God.
- - - - - - - - - -

[Apollos1]

Just a couple more points...

Eli said - As for Hebrews 2:8, it is clear that what is unfulfilled is "everything being put under His feet", but in the day described in ISAIAH66:23, "ALL FLESH" shall be under His feet. NO MISTAKING THE 'CONTEXT' THERE AT ALL.

First, you did not answer what I asked you. What does UNFULFILLED and SUBJECTION have to do with each other? They are NOT the same word – do NOT mean the same thing. You want to avoid my question and continue to act as if the words are synonymous. If something has not been SUBJECTED to Christ, it does not mean something was UNFULFILLED. Define the words! You have to know what words mean or you will continue to make the same mistake you have made here twice.

Seocnd, Isaiah 66:23 tells of a time of future worship (by the church) to God and uses language familiar to the Jewish people to describe that time. So what? Not only did you take it out of context – you did not make any connection from this verse to Hebrews 2:8. Of course, there is NO connection to establish. “All flesh” is not found in Hebrews 2:8 and “under His feet” is not found in Isaiah 66:23. So do you think you still have a point?

Eli said - Saying the weekly sabbath "was nailed to the cross" is a 'catch cry' of those who cry "grace without law!" with no scripture to support it (indeed, James [2:17] politely rebukes this);

This assertion is not what I believe at all. I believe what Paul wrote in…

Colossians 2:14– “…having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross…”


Compare this to what Paul wrote about the same time, while he was in prison…

Ephesians 2:15 – “…having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…”

In the “flesh” of Christ – at the cross – that OLD covenant once made with physical Israel only at Sinai was “ABOLISHED” – nailed to that cross – ALL of it including the “commandments” ! By fulfilling ALL things Christ made it possible for “the Law” to pass, which made it possible for the “everlasting” covenant to be established with those who by faith in Christ are reckoned as the “seed” of Abraham, heirs according to the promise – the spiritual Israel of God. These "heirs" follow the “law of Christ”.

Eli, the "Law" passed. Give up that law and the sabbath it contains. That idol rules your world!

[elijahorao]

Have a read (and may God help you comprehend)

Hebrews, chapter 10:1": For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

"2": For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

"3": But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

"4": For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

"5": Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

"6": In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

"7": Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

"8": Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

"9": Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

"10": By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."


THIS IS WHAT JESUS NAILED TO THE CROSS!
iT IS STILL SIN TO KILL, STEAL, TAKE THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN, COMMIT ADULTERY, COVET, COMMIT IDOLATRY etc
How is it you do not understand that the ten commands are about 'relationship conduct' (THE THINGS WE 'DO')
Jesus took away the 'law of sacrifices, (THE THINGS SYMBOLIC OF HIM)

There is no point addressing any of your other misscomprehensions if you cannot get this.

[elijahorao]

It's an interesting time of year to examine the question; "Christian traditions; How close are we?"
Because, much of what we call 'christian traditions' are actualy 'idolatrous traditions'. It is 'easter' now, and people as a whole are conned into the belief that they are keeping 'passover' by keeping 'easter'. Passover has it's roots in christ, but easter has it's roots in the worship of a fertility goddess (thus 'fertility' symbols of the eggs and rabbits) Why is the date of easter set according to the moon? The moons cycles are a 28 day event like the human menstrual cycle, and it has long been associated with human fertility.
What has happened?
Who has pushed this error?
Why?
Does it matter?
Does it stop here?
No! Christmas is a con too, at this time of year most 'western' humans lie to their children and tell them that some mystical 'good' father who is a giver of gifts will come and reward them if they have been good.
YUK!! How gross and offensive is that when you prayerfully examine the fraud?
How close are we?

[Apollos1]

To Eli –

Eli said - Have a read (and may God help you comprehend)

Hebrews, chapter 10:1": For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

THIS [Hebrews 10] IS WHAT JESUS NAILED TO THE CROSS!

First, this chapter does not cover everything that was “nailed to the cross”. It is a good start, but do you realize what the other chapters of Hebrews are covering as well? There was a change OF the law and of the “priesthood” – Hb. 7:12. A new covenant – Hb. 8:8, 9:15. A new mediator, high priest, sacrifice for sins… a “new” salvation (Hb. 2:3). ALL of this was not possible under the old covenant. The OLD covenant made with Israel was not revamped or amended – a NEW covenant came to be. That is why, just as God always planned from creation, a NEW covenant, with NEW terms and conditions was ratified.

But this NEW covenant does not include a “sabbath” day of any form or fashion. This is why you struggle to incorporate bits and pieces from that OLD covenant. You just don’t want to give up that “sabbath” day! You have been duped into thinking there is something eternal and moral about keeping it. Such is not the truth.

Second, the point is made and must be observed that the OT can NOT be partialed and/or subdivided. It was a “covenant” and as such it was “all or none”.

Galatians 5:3 – “…I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.”

James 2:10 – “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all.

Both Paul and James relay the point that “the Law” could not be observed in the points you wanted and ignored in the others. ALL had to be observed! The attempt to parse “the Law” into “moral” and “ceremonial” divisions, saying one part was kept for today and the other parts were abolished, and that one part must be observed today and the other discarded is without scriptural warrant! I have already alluded to this point back in my post #9 at the start of this thread.

Third, to say that only that which is contained in Hebrews 10 was abolished contradicts many passages of scripture including that which was just offered above…

Colossians 2:14– “…having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross…”

-and-

Ephesians 2:15 – “…having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…”

In the “flesh” of Christ – at the cross – that OLD covenant once made with physical Israel only at Sinai was “ABOLISHED” – nailed to that cross – ALL of it including the “commandments” !

Eli - iT IS STILL SIN TO KILL, STEAL, TAKE THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN, COMMIT ADULTERY, COVET, COMMIT IDOLATRY etc.

Of course it still is, because such is covered/included in the NEW covenant, such as in Romans 13:9.

Eli - How is it you do not understand that the ten commands are about 'relationship conduct' (THE THINGS WE 'DO')

I do understand what the TC’s were about and what they were for – cf. Galatians 3:24-25. But now I am looking for the deeper, more spiritual relationship as afforded by the NEW covenant and the “better” things it offers. Cf. Matthew 5:23, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44, Hebrews 7:19,22, 8:6,10, 9:23.


Eli - Jesus took away the 'law of sacrifices, (THE THINGS SYMBOLIC OF HIM)

Yes Jesus did, but this are not the ONLY things He took away.

Eli - There is no point addressing any of your other misscomprehensions if you cannot get this.

This remark is somewhat amusing. As I look back over the posts that you and I have exchanged thus far, I notice that something is missing. What is missing from YOU is…

WHEN – Eli, tell us WHEN the “sabbath” was first given. Scripture(s) please…
Tell me WHEN the first “sabbath” was observed. Scripture please…

WHO – Eli, tell us WHO the “sabbath” was given to. Scripture(s) please…

WHY – Eli, why was the “sabbath” given to the “who” above. Scripture(s) please…

WHERE – Tell us WHERE the “who” above was when the “sabbath” was given to them. Scripture(s) please…

WHERE are your scriptures? WHY haven’t you given them? WHEN can we expect to receive them? WHO can help you with that – anyone?

For all of your elaborate “lip service” the only scripture you have offered for any of the above is Genesis 2:3. This verse was “shot down” in spiraling flames because it did not support your assertion. Do you have anything else to offer?

You can mitigate, assume, and assert all you care to about the “sabbath”, but until you come up with some scripture to prove what you are saying, you can take a “rest”!

Eli, my desire and supplication is for you that you will establish a relationship with God according to the knowledge of Him that calls you by His own glory and virtue. This won’t happen until your give your idols up! That “idol” is that “sabbath” you cso desperately cling to.

[elijahorao]

TO APOLLOS (ISN’T THAT THE NAME OF A GREEK GOD?)



I HAVE REPOSTED YOUR SUBMISSION WITH ‘RIGHT’ COMMENTS IN BLOCK LETTERS

Eli said - Have a read (and may God help you comprehend)

*Hebrews, chapter 10:1": For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

*THIS [Hebrews 10] IS WHAT JESUS NAILED TO THE CROSS!

First, this chapter does not cover everything that was “*nailed to the cross*”. It is a good start, but do you realize what the other chapters of Hebrews are covering as well? There was a change OF the law and of the “priesthood” – Hb. 7:12. A new covenant – Hb. 8:8, 9:15. A new mediator, high priest, sacrifice for sins (IT IS CLEAR FROM HEBREWS 9:1,2 THAT THIS IS ABOUT THE SANCTUARY SERVICE, NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS)… a “new” salvation (Hb. 2:3) (THAT IS WHACKO. DO YOU THINK THAT MOSES APPEARED BEFORE JESUS RESSURECTED BY ANY SALVATION OTHER THAN CHRIST’S???). ALL of this was not possible under the old covenant. The OLD covenant made with Israel was not revamped or amended – a NEW covenant came to be. That is why, just as God always planned from creation, a NEW covenant, with NEW terms and conditions was ratified. (WHAT COVENANT DO YOU THINK MOSES WAS RAISED TO APPEAR TO JESUS UNDER?)

But this NEW covenant does not include a “sabbath” day of any form or fashion. (DERR! SALVATION IS NOT ABOUT SABBATH KEEPING, SABBATH KEEPING IS ABOUT LOVE/RESPECT TOWARD GOD. THE FOURTH COMMAND IS TOWARD GOD AS THE FIFTH COMMAND IS TOWARD PARENTS) This is why you struggle to incorporate bits and pieces from that OLD covenant. You just don’t want to give up that “sabbath” day! You have been duped into thinking there is something eternal and moral about keeping it. Such is not the truth. (YOU ARE MAKING PRESUMPTIONS ABOUT THE WORKINGS OF MY HEART AND MIND HERE. I KEEP IT IN HONOUR, RESPECT, REMEMBERANCE OF GOD AS CREATOR. AS JESUS SAID, “YOUR JUDGEMENT ON ME FITS YOU BEST”)

Second, the point is made and must be observed that the OT can NOT be partialed and/or subdivided. It was a “covenant” and as such it was “all or none”. THE OT IS NOT A COVENANT. THE OT IS SCRIPTURES, AND BOTH THE OLD AND NEW COVENANT ARE WRITTEN ABOUT, IN IT)

*Galatians 5:3* – “…I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the *whole law*.” (THIS IS ABOUT CIRCUMCISION! WHERE IN THE TEN COMMANDS DO WE READ ABOUT CIRCUMCISION???????)

*James 2:10* – “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty *of all*. (THIS DOES NOT SAY THE LAW IS OVER, IT SIMPLY SAYS THAT SIN IS SIN WHETHER YOU STEAL OR KILL, IT IS THE SAME)

Both Paul and James relay the point that “the Law” could not be observed in the points you wanted and ignored in the others. ALL had to be observed! (YOU MIXED THE TWO UP. JAMES IS SAYING THAT SIN IS SIN AND PAUL IS SAYING THAT IF YOU RELY ON CEREMONIAL SACRIFICES YOU MUST GET EVERYTHING ELSE RIGHT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTING CHRIST DERR!!!) The attempt to parse “the Law” into “moral” and “ceremonial” divisions, saying one was kepty and the other abolished, and that one must be observed and the other ignored is without scriptural warrant! (BOLLOCKS! YOU ARE CONFUSED. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOT HAVING YOUR PENIS ALTERED AND KILLING A HUMAN) I have already once alluded to this point already back in my post #9 at the start of this thread.

Third, to say that only that which is contained in Hebrews 10 was abolished contradicts many passages of scripture including that which was just offered above (BOLLOCKS! AGAIN)…

*Colossians 2:14*– “…having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, *nailing it to the cross*…” (HA! HA! YOU FORGOT TO WRITE “HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES” HA! HA! WHAT SORT OF BIBLE DO YOU READ FROM???? HANDWRITING IS NOT GOD’S WRITING)
-and-

*Ephesians 2:15* – “…having *_abolished_* *in the flesh* the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES!!! WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS???? IS THOU SHALL NOT KILL ABOLISHED????); that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…”In the “*flesh*” of Christ – at the cross – that OLD covenant once made with physical Israel only at Sinai was “*ABOLISHED”* – nailed to that cross – ALL of it including the “commandments” !
Eli - iT IS STILL SIN TO KILL, STEAL, TAKE THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN, COMMIT ADULTERY, COVET, COMMIT IDOLATRY etc.

Of course it still is, because such is covered/included in the NEW covenant, such as in *Romans 13:9*.
Eli - How is it you do not understand that the ten commands are about 'relationship conduct' (THE THINGS WE 'DO')

I do understand what the TC’s were about and what they were for – cf. *Galatians 3:24-25*. But now I am looking for the deeper, more spiritual relationship (IS IT MORE ‘SPIRITUAL’ TO ‘FORGET’ WHAT GOD SAYS TO ‘REMEMBER’????)as afforded by the NEW covenant and the “better” things it offers. Cf. *Matthew 5:23, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44*, *Hebrews 7:19,22, 8:6,10, 9:23*.
Eli - Jesus took away the 'law of sacrifices, (THE THINGS SYMBOLIC OF HIM)

Yes Jesus did, but this are not the ONLY things He took away. (NO? WHAT ELSE DID HE TAKE AWAY? THOU SHALL NOT KILL?)Eli - There is no point addressing any of your other misscomprehensions if you cannot get this.

This remark is somewhat amusing. As I look back over the posts that you and I have exchanged thus far, I notice that _something is missing_. What is missing from YOU is…

*WHEN* – Eli, tell us WHEN the “sabbath” was first given. (YOU GOT THAT IN GENESIS 2:3 BUT WILL NOT RECEIVE IT BECAUSE IT HINDERS YOUR THEOLOGY)Scripture(s) please…
Tell me WHEN the first “sabbath” was observed. (GENESIS 2:2 WHERE OUR LORD SET US A GOOD EXAMPLE) Scripture please…(GENESIS 2:3 but you will not receive it………..…..yet)

*WHO* – Eli, tell us WHO the “sabbath” was given to. (THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN)Scripture(s) please…(MARK 2:7)

*WHY* – Eli, why was the “sabbath” given to the “who” above. (FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD CREATED…) Scripture(s) please…(EXODUS 20: 11": For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.)

*WHERE* – Tell us WHERE the “who” above was (IN THE GARDEN AT CREATION GENESIS 2:2)when the “sabbath” was given to them. Scripture(s) please…

WHERE are your scriptures? WHY haven’t you given them? WHEN can we expect to receive them? WHO can help you with that – anyone? (YES, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS A GREAT HELP. YOU HAVE THE SCRIPTURES NOW. WHAT YOU DO WITH THEM IS YOUR BUSINESS)

For all of your elaborate “lip service” the only scripture you have offered for any of the above is Genesis 2:3. (ISN’T THE BEGINNING ENOUGH? John, chapter 1:1": In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. “ 1 John, chapter 2:7": Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. “

This verse was “shot down” in spiraling flames (JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY SO? NO PROOF, JUST YOUR WORDS) because it did not support your assertion. (BOLLOCKS AGAIN! DREAM ON, THE ONLY PERSON WHO BELIEVES THAT IS YOU, AND I DOUBT THAT YOU EVEN BELIEVE IT REALLY)Do you have anything else to offer?

You can mitigate, assume, and assert all you care to about the “sabbath”, but until you come up with some scripture to prove what you are saying, you can take a “rest”!

Eli, my desire and supplication is for you that you will establish a relationship with God according to the knowledge of Him that calls you by His own glory and virtue. This won’t happen until your give your idols up! That “idol” is that “sabbath” you cso desperately cling to.

(INTERESTING ACCUSATION ‘IDOLATRY’ HOW CAN THAT BE IF WE HAVE NO TEN COMMANDMENTS??? HA! HA! HA! GOOD JOKE! ISN’T IT????)

[DerSchweik]

Gentlemen,
Moving this thread to the "Formal Discussion" sub-forum where you can continue this discussion/debate.
Staff appreciates that you've kept things civil thus far - as you ought - but the "temperature" has noticeably risen here of late so we urge you to continue to exercise restraint and temper your comments to one another, avoiding any further escalation.

Thank you

[elijahorao]

Than you moderator. I use the block letters to distinquish between the two authors. I can't work out how to do different colours. I'm not much of a techno.

[DerSchweik]

NP Elijah... :)

If you want to change text color just click on the "A" that has the little black line below it (just to the right of the B I U in the quick reply box or in the Post Reply box.

Highlight the text you want with your mouse (just left click and drag the mouse over the text you want to color) then click on the color box and select a color.

Holler if that doesn't work for ya.

God bless,

[elijahorao]

testing THANKS:thumbsup:

[DerSchweik]

testing THANKS:thumbsup: ;) You got it! :)

Just holler if you have any questions - always glad to help out where I can / if I can :scratch: <-- that's me usually!

[Apollos1]

Eli –

I am still hoping you will see that the “sabbath” was abolished, and that it was part of a covenant that was replaced by another covenant based on better promises and sacrifice. You are still in denial of simple facts and truths. There are many questions and scriptures which you continue to avoid and not answer. You pick and choose what you will answer just as you pick and choose what you will observe out of the OC.
- - - - - - - - - -

Eli said - TO APOLLOS (ISN’T THAT THE NAME OF A GREEK GOD?)

He was a Christian - Acts 18:24-28. 24Now a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by race, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the scriptures... ASV
- - - - - - - - - -

Eli - *THIS [Hebrews 10] IS WHAT JESUS NAILED TO THE CROSS!

I used a number of scriptures to show a number of other things that were also “nailed to the cross”, including the whole of the OLD covenant. You don’t want to see that because you do not want to give up your precious “sabbath” day. You are currently “heaped” in what Paul refers in Romans 7:1-6 to as “spiritual adultery”, just so that you can continue to observe a day of the week never given to Gentiles.


*Galatians 5:3* – “…I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the *whole law*.”
Eli said - (THIS IS ABOUT CIRCUMCISION! WHERE IN THE TEN COMMANDS DO WE READ ABOUT CIRCUMCISION???????)

You missed the point! What does “whole law” mean to someone like you? The passage, as does James 2:10 illustrates that you are not allowed to “slice and dice” the OLD covenant to suit your whims. It was all or none. If you want to observe the “sabbath” – YOU MUST observe the whole law! You think you can take the parts and pieces you want, then say these aspects are “moral” and those are “ceremonial”, then observe the ones you want to have, and just ignore all the rest. You selectively pick scriptures such as Hebrews 10 and selectively apply such verses to conclude that the TC’s remain (the part you want) and all else in the OC was abolished. Paul and James are telling you – It doesn’t work that way!!
- - - - - - - - - -

Eli - YOU MIXED THE TWO UP. JAMES IS SAYING THAT SIN IS SIN AND PAUL IS SAYING THAT IF YOU RELY ON CEREMONIAL SACRIFICES YOU MUST GET EVERYTHING ELSE RIGHT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTING CHRIST DERR!!!

There are many ways this remark could be answered. I want to use Acts 15. Herein the Pharisees stood up (verse 5) and said that it was necessary to circumcise and keep the “law of Moses”.

We will first note that the “law of Moses” makes reference to the TC or possibly the first -5- books of the OT (Torah/Pentateuch). Either way you look at it, this INCLUDES the TC’s, which includes your “sabbath”.

What was the answer from the Apostles about this? In a word, they said that to circumcise and keep the “law of Moses” was to place a “yoke of bondage” upon the neck of the disciples no one could bear (verse 10) and was equated to the “subverting of souls” (verse 24) !!! Oooops! No circumcision and no sabbath today. Pardon the pun – they were both “cut off” !!! LOL!
- - - - - - - - - -

Eli said - YOU ARE CONFUSED. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOT HAVING YOUR PENIS ALTERED AND KILLING A HUMAN.

Not to God. Both “points” were a part of His law and He expected FULL compliance with ALL points. You need to view “the Law” the way God views His law.
- - - - - - - - - -

Apollos offered - Colossians 2:14– “…having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, *nailing it to the cross*…”
Eli said - (HA! HA! YOU FORGOT TO WRITE “HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES” HA! HA! WHAT SORT OF BIBLE DO YOU READ FROM???? HANDWRITING IS NOT GOD’S WRITING)

1.) Er….uh…. I did not forget anything… “…handwriting of ordinances” in found in the KJV. I typically use the ASV as read above. You should have checked a couple of other translations to make certain. You really need to get out more, but then I understand your Saturdays are taken. How many quibbles do you have for ignoring the truth?

2.) Exodus 31:18 – “ And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.(cf. Ex. 24:12, 32:15, Deut. 9:10) You really do not know what you are talking about do you? Is this your best quibble?
- - - -
Apollos offered - Ephesians 2:15 – “…having abolished in the flesh* the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances …

Eli remarked …(CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES!!! WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS? IS THOU SHALL NOT KILL ABOLISHED????)

1.) Maybe this your best quibble? “Ordinance” – law, decree, ordinance. What is your issue with the word?
- - - - - - - - - -

Eli - iT IS STILL SIN TO KILL, STEAL, TAKE THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN, COMMIT ADULTERY, COVET, COMMIT IDOLATRY etc.Repeat: Of course it still is, because such is covered/included in the NEW covenant, such as in Romans 13:9.

- - - - - - - - - -

Eli - THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN…(MARK 2:7)
Yes, all of the Jewish ones beginning at Sinai – as shown in several posts above.


Eli - (INTERESTING ACCUSATION ‘IDOLATRY’ HOW CAN THAT BE IF WE HAVE NO TEN COMMANDMENTS??? HA! HA! HA! GOOD JOKE! ISN’T IT????)
See Galatians 5:20-21… I know that these “commands” are in the NC and that idolatry is included. You do not seem to be aware of what the NC contains.

I was wondering Eli… Have you had more than one mortgage in your life? Or maybe you have owned more than one car. Maybe you made payments like more people do.

When you sold that car or that house, and bought the next one, did you continue to PAY for the first one? I mean, did you continue to send a payment in for the first debt?????? If you stopped making the payments on the first mortgage, you should be bright enough to see how one covenant can be replaced by a second covenant, and which one should be followed……
- - - - - - - - - -

Genesis 2:3 - “And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.”

1.) God blessed the 7th day.
2.) God hallowed the 7th day.
3.) BECAUSE God rested (ceased creating) on the 7th day.

No mention of a “sabbath” for man here.
No mention of man “keeping” this day for any reason or observance.
No mention, no ordinance, no decree, no example, and no inference of a “sabbath” for man for 2,000 years! You are reading quite a bit INTO the verse, aren’t you?

You can ignore when and where the “sabbath” was given. You can ignore why it was given and to whom. But you can not change the truth that God’s word tells about it!

[elijahorao]

@ Appollos
After all of that, I reviewed all topics covered. You continue to revert to the letter to Galatians as an authority for your stand even though the letter begins with a qualification that makes it clear it is about circumcision AND finishes on the same theme. You do not find the scripture mentioning that the seventh day has been ‘blessed’ AND ‘sanctified’ is a sufficient reason to not regard it as common.
Further discussion/debate with you appears futile and would only be done for the sake of contention and strife.
I will not point out any more to you other than that; I was from the outset concerned that a false teaching was being promoted and needed checking. No doubt you say the same. Our Lord will soon enough establish His will and His kingdom will be come.
At that time we shall bear rewards for our teachings/leadings.
here comes a day when there will be no debate over this because Jesus Himself will make it clear..
Appollos I sign off to you.

To any followers of this thread this far, the different sides have been amply presented (there is always more) and it remains for you to conclude that it is not safe to trust in the teachings/leadings of men when your relationship to God is involved. Read your bibles.
Jesus has made a promise to us all;

JOHN 14:13 " And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

"14": If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

"15": If ye love me, keep my commandments.

"16": And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

"17": Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"18": I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.”


Take Him at His word and ask in His/Jesus’ name for the Spirit of Truth and prayerfully study this out for yourself.

[wmssid]

To the forum:

God is not dead as most people think.

He controlled the mind of President Bush to make a premptive strike on Iraq. This is because the Living God is King of kings.



The 7 Spirits of God, received by prayer (after dipping), are listed:

Wisdom & Understanding (One Spirit), Counsel (One Faith), Might (One God), Knowledge (One Hope), Fear of [I]He Is (HWHY) (One Dipping), Judge (-ment) (One Lord), Righteousness (One Body); Isa 11.2-4, Eph 4.4-6.

The law "Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" - Heb 8.13; writtne about AD 66.

God created a "new covenant", Jer 31.31-34, referring to New Jerusalem to replace Israel which God killed, Isa 65.15, Ps 2.

The Devil wants your mind on the past, and unaware that God is alive today. The Jews told Jesus they had Moses for a prophet. They died in darkness and sin.

Don't let this happen to you by keeping yor mind on God's finished works of the First Century, and of the Old Testaemt.

Alexander Campbell and B.W. Johnson believed in a "currently living, and active God."

Romans 9.6-8, tells that the Jews were not "the chosen people of God"; in AD 58; but he and his converts were the "Elect."

wmssid