Abandoned Israel??

[GerTzedek]

That last document on Nazareans was a study on the relationship of Judaism and Nazarenes who believed in Yeshua and how it deteriated around the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt because of the clash between the faith in two different Messiahs.
It was a huge mistake on the part of the Netzarim not to join in the Bar Kochba rebellion. All they had to say was "We don't believe him to be the Messiah, but we of course join with our people." But instead they did the very thing which Jews of Yeshua-faith basically did ever since -- they abandoned Israel.

[stone]

prove it

[visionary]

Ger?

[GerTzedek]

Ger?
I DID reply to this. However, my post was in a different thread. It might be a good idea, if you are going to move my post, along with stone's challenge, to please be so kind as to transfer my answer here as well.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

It was a huge mistake on the part of the Netzarim not to join in the Bar Kochba rebellion. All they had to say was "We don't believe him to be the Messiah, but we of course join with our people." But instead they did the very thing which Jews of Yeshua-faith basically did ever since -- they abandoned Israel. Christians were instructed by Jesus to flee. Christians were also told by Jesus not to follow any false Messiah in the desert. Christians have also been told that this present Israel nation will be distroyed in a war. It is only during the thousand year reign of Christ, that Israel the nation will be in peace.

[visionary]

stone: Prove it? Prove what? it is prima facie. They refused to participate in the rebellion, refused to be a part of the community.
It was the single most tragic mistake on the part of the Netzarim.

From that point on, until the recent advent of MJ, when Jews came to Yeshua-faith, they left Jewish community and assimilated into the gentile community.

That BY DEFINITION is abandoning Israel.

There was nothing in this that needed to be reported, Stone. I stated the reality of history. It's the tragedy that MJ seeks to redress. What rule does that break?You mean this..???

[GerTzedek]

You mean this..???
Thank you.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Quote:
Originally Posted by visionary
You mean this..???

Thank you.Thank you. It's not a secret, they were instructed by God through Christ. Don't forget, the Temple and Israel was under the Hellenist control.

[ContraMundum]

So, are you saying that Christians should kill just out of nationalism, even if Christians were warned about this in scripture?

Very modern interpretation of the NT, I'd say. Bar Kochba was a false Messiah- why would anyone want to kill for that, especially because believers knew it wouldn't make any difference?

[GerTzedek]

Should Christians fight to defend their own country against an invader? OF COURSE. I am NOT a pacifist.

[HaNotsri]

Should Christians fight to defend their own country against an invader? OF COURSE. I am NOT a pacifist.

Should Christians fight for a country if the leader is proclaimed the Messiah, when we know that that is not a the truth. Sounds a lot like what a lot of theologians see in an AntiChrist

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Should Christians fight to defend their own country against an invader? OF COURSE. I am NOT a pacifist. They may have, if they were not instructed by God not to.

[ContraMundum]

Should Christians fight for a country if the leader is proclaimed the Messiah, when we know that that is not a the truth. Sounds a lot like what a lot of theologians see in an AntiChrist

Very good point.

[SGM4HIM]

I believe it's shortsighted to blame it on the Netzarim. There were many others who did not rise to the occasion. After 70 ce many left the area
wikipedia " Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai relocated to the city of Yavne/Jamnia and founded a school of Jewish law there, becoming a major source for the later Mishna"

Aish.com "THE GREAT REVOLT " also concurs. "historians estimate that there were about 5-7 million Jews living in the Roman Empire and at least 60% of that number were living outside the land of Israel. Places like Alexandria, Egypt (one of the most cosmopolitan cities of that era) alone had a Jewish population of about 250,000 and boasted the largest synagogue in the world."

Here's some other comments Aish had regarding the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt....... "Bar Kochba too became arrogant. He saw himself winning. He heard people calling him the Messiah. Certainly, if Rabbi Akiva thought so, then he had the potential to be Israel's Ultimate Leader. He also became corrupted by his power and even beat his uncle, the great Rabbi Elazr HaModai , to death, having accepted false accusations that he was a Roman spy (3). Because of these faults he began to lose battles and was forced into retreat and guerrilla warfare.
In Judaism we are taught that while people must make the effort, it is God that wins the wars. It is not human strength nor human might that's doing it."

[Henaynei]

I believe it's shortsighted to blame it on the Netzarim. There were many others who did not rise to the occasion. After 70 ce many left the area
wikipedia " Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai relocated to the city of Yavne/Jamnia and founded a school of Jewish law there, becoming a major source for the later Mishna"

Aish.com "THE GREAT REVOLT " also concurs. "historians estimate that there were about 5-7 million Jews living in the Roman Empire and at least 60% of that number were living outside the land of Israel. Places like Alexandria, Egypt (one of the most cosmopolitan cities of that era) alone had a Jewish population of about 250,000 and boasted the largest synagogue in the world."

Here's some other comments Aish had regarding the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt....... "Bar Kochba too became arrogant. He saw himself winning. He heard people calling him the Messiah. Certainly, if Rabbi Akiva thought so, then he had the potential to be Israel's Ultimate Leader. He also became corrupted by his power and even beat his uncle, the great Rabbi Elazr HaModai , to death, having accepted false accusations that he was a Roman spy (3). Because of these faults he began to lose battles and was forced into retreat and guerrilla warfare.
In Judaism we are taught that while people must make the effort, it is God that wins the wars. It is not human strength nor human might that's doing it.":thumbsup: :amen:

[Colabomb]

I think it may be noteworthy that.... after posting this.... ger is no longer messianic....

[HaNotsri]

I think it may be noteworthy that.... after posting this.... ger is no longer messianic....

That's what happens when you put the concept of Israel, above the concept of God

[Colabomb]

That's what happens when you put the concept of Israel, above the concept of God

I'll say it, i honestly don't understand why some gentiles are so so facinated with A culture and heritage not their own.

God Came to Save the Gentile, God died so that we may have life. We don't have to become something we are not in order to live in God's Favor. We are the Redeemed, heirs through His son.

I have no hatred for Jews. But I realize that I'm NOT a Jew, and I don't need to emulate their heritage for God to Show me His Love and Compassion. I already have them.

Let the Jews be Jews, Let the Gentiles be Gentiles, he saved us Both. He never told us we had to be something we are not.

[Tea]

I'll say it, i honestly don't understand why some gentiles are so so facinated with A culture and heritage not their own.



Judaism is indeed our heritage. Judaism does not need Christianity to explain it's roots. Christianity does need Judaism to explain it's roots. Without it we have no heritage. The bible explains that our roots are found in Judaism, and it also admonishes us not to think that we are better than our roots, for without the root, the plant is dead.


God Came to Save the Gentile, God died so that we may have life.


Messiah came to offer his attoning blood once and for all, and for ALL people who would believe and do his will, not just the gentiles. The majority of believers in the new testment church were Jews. Jer and Heb talk of a new covenant that He would make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. No gentile church mentioned here. There are also 12 gates into the Holy city, each with one of the 12 tribes inscribed over head. No gate for the gentile church.

We do indeed need to know and understand our roots, and where our faith comes from. Those that have studied their roots, have come to a richer understanding and faith because of this knowledge and understanding.

Tracey

[ContraMundum]

Heritage is one issue we can all agree on. Judaism is the heritage of Christianity, no doubt. In fact, I'd say that the Christian faith is the great revelation about the amazing truths of the older covenants.

But, when accepting that heritage means accepting doctrines and interpretations from the Rabbis about Judaism that came after the Messiah, one is being illogical and certainly undermining the promises of Yeshua regarding the authority of the Church and the abiding fellowship of the Holy Spirit. This is the big issue here.

God loves Israel, and God loves the nations. Israel has a vital part in God's plan- to the last day- but the Church has the Holy Spirit to guide her if she has ears to hear, which often she has not. I personally believe that the Gentile Church is falling away from the faith at a rapid pace, but that God will again bring forward the Jewish people to give witness for Him by showing them Yeshua HaMashiach. There will be no "new" church, because the church is one, but there will be a reformation of sorts. The first Christians were Jews, and last ones will be Jews. IMHO. :)

[Henaynei]

Contra,
But, when accepting that heritage means accepting doctrines and interpretations from the Rabbis about Judaism that came after the Messiah, one is being illogical and certainly undermining the promises of Yeshua regarding the authority of the Church and the abiding fellowship of the Holy Spirit. This is the big issue here. certainly it is well known that this is your POV - but would it not be more conducive to discussion and fellowship to clearly state it AS your POV and not as a seemingly pontifical pronouncement on the POV of those who disagree as being "illogical and certainly undermining the promises of Yeshua...?"

It is your POV, you clearly have every right to have it as your POV and it is known by this time how strongly you feel about it.... but this does not make it the only or irrefutably correct POV on the subject. :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[ContraMundum]

Contra,
certainly it is well known that this is your POV - but would it not be more conducive to discussion and fellowship to clearly state it AS your POV and not as a seemingly pontifical pronouncement on the POV of those who disagree as being "illogical and certainly undermining the promises of Yeshua...?"

It is your POV, you clearly have every right to have it as your POV and it is known by this time how strongly you feel about it.... but this does not make it the only or irrefutably correct POV on the subject. :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

That's your POV. :)

[Henaynei]

It is your POV, you clearly have every right to have it as your POV and it is known by this time how strongly you feel about it.... but this does not make it the only or irrefutably correct POV on the subject. :)That's your POV. :)^_^ so it is your POV that your POV is the only or irrefutably correct POV on the subject? :scratch: :doh:

[ContraMundum]

^_^ so it is your POV that your POV is the only or irrefutably correct POV on the subject? :scratch: :doh:

Of course, otherwise I wouldn't believe it and would leave it as an open question. :)

But, I also totally believe that everyone else is free to have a differing POV, and state it with the same amount of conviction that I state my POV. It is my POV that we can all state POV's with conviction and still allow others to do the same without taking it personally. It's about respecting other's POV's.

But, if it is your POV that we should state our POV's as merely POVs or opinions (as I interpret your previous post) then that's ok too.

:)

[Henaynei]

Of course, otherwise I wouldn't believe it and would leave it as an open question.

But, I also totally believe that everyone else is free to have a differing POV, and state it with the same amount of conviction that I state my POV. It is my POV that we can all state POV's with conviction and still allow others to do the same without taking it personally. It's about respecting other's POV's.

But, if it is your POV that we should state our POV's as merely POVs or opinions (as I interpret your previous post) then that's ok too.

But, when accepting that heritage means accepting doctrines and interpretations from the Rabbis about Judaism that came after the Messiah, one is being illogical and certainly undermining the promises of Yeshua regarding the authority of the Church and the abiding fellowship of the Holy Spirit. This is the big issue here.personal attacks on one's relationship with Messiah is "respecting other's POV?" :scratch:

To so state is the epitome of egotism and bigotry.

That is my respectful response to your POV.

[Henaynei]

now that the above statement by me has been read, and likely reported tell me.....

what is the fundamental difference between stating that some one's POV is "undermining the promises of Messiah" and stating that some one's POV is egotistical and bigoted??

I'll tell you: the first challenges one's relationship with Messiah and their standing in the Kingdom (what true believer is undermining the promises of Messiah?) and the second is merely challenging one's attitude....

I'll freely admit the second is wrong..... why is the first OK?

[Lulav]

It was a huge mistake on the part of the Netzarim not to join in the Bar Kochba rebellion. All they had to say was "We don't believe him to be the Messiah, but we of course join with our people." But instead they did the very thing which Jews of Yeshua-faith basically did ever since -- they abandoned Israel.I think they were following the words of their master, he told them what would happen and what they should do, they were obedient to him, as they should have been.

[Lulav]

How did we get from the Netzarim not participating in the revolt to arguing POV's? :scratch:


I guess the Netzarim had a different POV view then the rest of Israel. ;)

[ContraMundum]

personal attacks on one's relationship with Messiah is "respecting other's POV?" :scratch:

To so state is the epitome of egotism and bigotry.

That is my respectful response to your POV.

I think you misunderstood my post, actually, now that I see what you're thinking. My post was about theology, not people.

I really don't think your comments about it were in step with my post, nor do I think the insulting comments about egotism and bigotry directed at me were necessary or helpful to the topic.

[ContraMundum]

now that the above statement by me has been read, and likely reported tell me.....

what is the fundamental difference between stating that some one's POV is "undermining the promises of Messiah" and stating that some one's POV is egotistical and bigoted??

I'll tell you: the first challenges one's relationship with Messiah and their standing in the Kingdom (what true believer is undermining the promises of Messiah?) and the second is merely challenging one's attitude....

I'll freely admit the second is wrong..... why is the first OK?

Henny, the first post was about the lack of logic it takes to accept Rabbinic innovations after the coming of the Messiah. I would have thought that even Rabbinic Jews would agree with that simple point (they just are still waiting for that Messiah and we could quibble with them over the details of course). Perhaps you think that there is logic in doing so- which would surprise me, but if you would prefer to discuss it then just make your point relative to that matter. Don't turn this thread into another ad-hominem thread- we have plenty of them already.

[Henaynei]

Henny, the first post was about the lack of logic it takes to accept Rabbinic innovations after the coming of the Messiah. I would have thought that even Rabbinic Jews would agree with that simple point (they just are still waiting for that Messiah and we could quibble with them over the details of course). Perhaps you think that there is logic in doing so - which would surprise me, but if you would prefer to discuss it then just make your point relative to that matter. Of course there is logic, not a logic you would accept, so be it.

Don't turn this thread into another ad-hominem thread- we have plenty of them already. I didn't turn this thread into as hominem - you did. You made such an attack in this post below...But, when accepting that heritage means accepting doctrines and interpretations from the Rabbis about Judaism that came after the Messiah, one is being illogical and certainly undermining the promises of Yeshua regarding the authority of the Church and the abiding fellowship of the Holy Spirit. This is the big issue here. When I brought this up you claimed this statement was showing respect toward others with differing opinions from yours. My comments about egotism and bigotry were an effort to show that stating that when someone believes x,y,z they are illogical and undermining Yeshua or that they are egotistical and bigoted are the same action (neither is showing respect) but not equivalent - one challenges one's relationship with HaShem, the other merely challenges an attitude.

My statements in that exchange had nothing to do with me trying to express my opinion of you or your POV about the validity or perceived lack thereof of Rabbinic logic.


Now you can SAY "I would have thought that even Rabbinic Jews would agree with that simple point" ... would agree with your (simple, basic, incontrovertible) logic .... thus you show your superior, condescending contemptuous attitude toward Rabbinic Judaism ... :doh: again, so be it....

however, consider me having exited this particular portion of the discussion, continuing it would serve no positive purpose what so ever..... Shalom

[ContraMundum]

OK Henny. Whatever you are happy with. Should I try not to make any points I actually think are true?

[muffler dragon]

That's what happens when you put the concept of Israel, above the concept of God

Wow! I didn't think you had it in you, HN.

Nothing like judging the heart of an internet acquaintance.

[muffler dragon]

I'll say it, i honestly don't understand why some gentiles are so so facinated with A culture and heritage not their own.

God Came to Save the Gentile, God died so that we may have life. We don't have to become something we are not in order to live in God's Favor. We are the Redeemed, heirs through His son.

I have no hatred for Jews. But I realize that I'm NOT a Jew, and I don't need to emulate their heritage for God to Show me His Love and Compassion. I already have them.

Let the Jews be Jews, Let the Gentiles be Gentiles, he saved us Both. He never told us we had to be something we are not.

The emboldened is the reason behind the underlined.

FTR, I am a Gentile who is fine with being a Gentile and I have a fascination with all things Judaic. Am I to understand that you have a problem with that as well?

[visionary]

This thread will be closed for review. Take this opportunity to change your post to reflect your presentation and not a attack of others. Your opinion or theology is not the be all, end all. :pray: