Praying to the Dead?

[visionary]

What do you understand about the dead?
Do you think that they can answer your prayers?
Do you think that they can make intercession for you?
What does the Bible say about talking with the dead?

[TheRabbi]

I'm assuming you mean other than Jerry Garcia.

[GerTzedek]

vis:
some people do. some people don't. so long as no one is worshipping the those who have passed into the next life, or asking them for information (divination), or ascribing power to them (polytheism), but merely asking for their prayers, what's it to you, one way or the other? it's like this issue eats you up alive, and for the life of me, i can't figure out why. why would you care if someone leaves a letter on the grave of a Tzaddik asking for their prayers? the worst it could possibly be is a waste of time.

[visionary]

Maybe you think that the dead hear you, speak to God, are not dead but in an altered state, waiting for the resurrection? You know the first lie was "Thou shalt surely not die". So what is the truth. Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. MARTIN LUTHER (1493-1546), German Reformer and Bible translator

'The immediate cause of Luther's stand on the sleep of the soul was the issue of purgatory, with its postulate of the conscious torment of anguished souls. While Luther is not always consistent, the predominant note running all through his writings is that souls sleep in peace, without consciousness or pain. The Christian dead are not aware of anything—see not, feel not, understand not, and are not conscious of passing events. Luther held and periodically stated that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness and unawareness of the condition of death or the passage of time.† Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep.‡ And the dead will remain asleep

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/luther-tyndale.htm

Some people believe that the the soul is immortal, and that the soul itself cannot die. This next text will forever clear up this misunderstanding. "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7. This scripture states that the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. What does it mean when it speaks of the spirit? In Job 27:3 it says, "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils." This text shows us that the spirit which God gives to man, is in his nostrils. Genesis 2:7 says, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God breathed into man's nostrils at creation and that breath of life is the spirit which returns to God at death.

Psalms 104:29,30. "Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth." Life and death are here described together and the words breath and spirit are used the same.

If the fact then is that the body returns to the ground and the breath of life returns to God, then where are the dead? When Peter in Acts 2:34 was speaking about David the patriarch, he answered the question. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand." Acts 2:29, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

The Bible calls death a sleep. Jesus said his friend Lazarus was asleep when he referred to Lazarus' death. "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth" John 11:11.

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalms 115:17 tells us that "there is no praise of God as far as the dead are concerned. "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."



Isaiah 38:18,19 For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.I just thought you should know what the Bible says on the subject. Psalms 6:5 says, For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Valid question.. why would you care if someone leaves a letter on the grave of a Tzaddik asking for their prayers? the worst it could possibly be is a waste of time.God gave me the heart to care.

[GerTzedek]

why would you care if someone leaves a letter on the grave of a Tzaddik asking for their prayers? the worst it could possibly be is a waste of time.
Valid question.. God gave me the heart to care.You care a very inordinate amount for something that is at worst a waste of time.

But suit yourself. Everyone has their stuff.

[TheRabbi]

I think it's a great question. Judaism teaches that Sheol or the grave is comprised of two realms, Gan Eden (or the Pardes, Paradise) and Gehinnom, the place of the purifying fire.

Jesus uses a vivid description of these two realms in one of his parables. A parable, by its very nature is filled with imagery and language that is familiar to the common people. This enables the speaker to bring lofty and complex ideas down to the level of the common folk.

It's obvious that the people were already familiar with the concepts of Paradise and Gehinnom. Otherwise, it would have been pointless for Jesus to use them in his parable. Notice that he doesn't explain the imagery he is using. He assumes that they are already familiar with what he's talking about.

The references to sleep are directed at the physical body, which is destined to sleep in the dust until the ressurection. The Pharisees, who carried the banner of the ressurection and the realms of Gehinnom and paradise, filled the prayers with references to "Yishnei afar"/Those who sleep in the dust. These men certainly did not believe in souls sleep, they were referring to the body, not the soul.

Samuel was certainly not asleep when he was brought up from the the underworld to speak to Saul.

[TheRabbi]

Praying to the dead is another matter. We may not pray to the dead. We may not speak to the dead. We teach that the souls is made of several levels. These are Nefesh, Ruach and Neshamah. The lowest soul or Nefesh, remains in the grave until the resurrection. Thus, when one is close to the grave of a prophet or righteous individual, he is close to a part of that persons soul. A note is sometimes left, not to the dead, but to God in hopes that the righteous one who's souls is both connected to God and at the same time connected to this place will bring the request before God on our behalf.

If we want the dead to know something, we ask God to tell them. But we do not speak to them ourselves. No request should be made of the dead, anyone who does this is outside the pale of Judaism.

Only in two circumstances do we speak to the dead.

1. The person who prepares the body and oversees the burial, speaks to the deceased after the body is placed in the grave. He asks that hey forgive him if he made any mistakes in the purification of the body or in the burial.

2. When relatives visit a grave they will sometimes, remind the person what their Hebrew name is. Sometimes when a person is so attached to the physical, they have a hard time separating from the body and it can be quite traumatic for them. This can cause a sort of amnesia and stupor. The angels will ask their Hebrew name and so sometimes, especially if the family is worried about a loved one spritual state at death, they will remind them of their Hebrew name.

Under no circumstances do we speak to them more than seven days after death.

Jews always made pilgrimages to pray at the tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron. Herod built a massive structure second only to the temple in stature and holiness and it stands intact to this very day. People went there to pray because they knew that they were near the souls of their righteous fathers. I was there 2 weeks ago with 25,000 other Jews for the reading of Parshat Chayei Sarah.

[ContraMundum]

Rabbi, you should mention more about how not every Jew thinks that way, not exactly, anyway. What you describe is kind of a gnostic version of the Catholic/Orthodox doctrine of the intercession fo the saints, eg. the prayers are ultimately answered by God but the prayers are joined to the heavenly intercession of the saints in eternal bliss.

But, some Jews actually expect answers from their dead Rebbe, do they not? Here is my all-tme favorite example. (http://www.kingmessiah.com/58/.) Lots of fun for all the family- just type in your request and hit the button. :)

[visionary]

Rabbi, you should mention more about how not every Jew thinks that way, not exactly, anyway. What you describe is kind of a gnostic version of the Catholic/Orthodox doctrine of the intercession fo the saints, eg. the prayers are ultimately answered by God but the prayers are joined to the heavenly intercession of the saints in eternal bliss.

But, some Jews actually expect answers from their dead Rebbe, do they not? Here is my all-tme favorite example. (http://www.kingmessiah.com/58/.) Lots of fun for all the family- just type in your request and hit the button. :)I was expecting to see your personal position on the subject.

[TheRabbi]

Absolutely, at Kfar Chabad every wedding miraculously receives a letter from the Rebbe with blessings for the new couple. I have already explained that these people are well outside the pale of Judaism. The Torah expressly forbids communion with the dead. It doesn't matter who it is that's doing it, it doesn't make it kosher.

[GerTzedek]

Contra, Anglicans do ask the saints for their prayers. What is your personal opinion on this?

[Ivy]

Rabbi, you should mention more about how not every Jew thinks that way, not exactly, anyway. What you describe is kind of a gnostic version of the Catholic/Orthodox doctrine of the intercession fo the saints, eg. the prayers are ultimately answered by God but the prayers are joined to the heavenly intercession of the saints in eternal bliss.

But, some Jews actually expect answers from their dead Rebbe, do they not? Here is my all-tme favorite example. (http://www.kingmessiah.com/58/.) Lots of fun for all the family- just type in your request and hit the button. :)

That link did not work. How am I going to get Lindor chocolate truffles and a red corvette now???????:scratch: Shoot.

^_^

Perhaps I hit the button in too goy-like of a manner. hehehe

[ContraMundum]

Contra, Anglicans do ask the saints for their prayers. What is your personal opinion on this?

Some do, most don't. The "in between" position is not that the church asks for individual saint's prayers but that it's prayers be added to the prayers of the Saints both departed and alive.

[tsali]

Maybe you think that the dead hear you, speak to God, are not dead but in an altered state, waiting for the resurrection? You know the first lie was "Thou shalt surely not die". So what is the truth. MARTIN LUTHER (1493-1546), German Reformer and Bible translator

Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in which Lazarus was in paradise and the rich man in torment. The rich man asked to send Lazarus to tell his brethren to repent, so normal life was still continuing on Earth. Though this is only a parable it does suggest that Christ was not adverse to the concept of an ongoing afterlife.

Saul spoke with Solomon after his death, and Solomon correctly prophesied Saul's demise after scolding him for interrupting his rest.

When Jesus argued against the Sadducees disbelief in the resurrection of souls, he argued that Abraham Isaac and Jacob were alive because God was not the God of dead men. That suggests that the partriarchs were then alive. If they were alive, quotes like those below about "the dead" would not apply to them.


'The immediate cause of Luther's stand on the sleep of the soul was the issue of purgatory, with its postulate of the conscious torment of anguished souls.


I thought purgatory was more about correction than torment.


While Luther is not always consistent, the predominant note running all through his writings is that souls sleep in peace, without consciousness or pain. The Christian dead are not aware of anything—see not, feel not, understand not, and are not conscious of passing events. Luther held and periodically stated that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness and unawareness of the condition of death or the passage of time.† Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep.‡ And the dead will remain asleep

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/luther-tyndale.htm

Some people believe that the the soul is immortal, and that the soul itself cannot die. This next text will forever clear up this misunderstanding. "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.


The differences in the meaning of the terms body, soul, and spirit is not always clear.


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7. This scripture states that the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. What does it mean when it speaks of the spirit? In Job 27:3 it says, "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils." This text shows us that the spirit which God gives to man, is in his nostrils. Genesis 2:7 says, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God breathed into man's nostrils at creation and that breath of life is the spirit which returns to God at death.


This could indeed be the case, but what does it mean for your spirit to return to God in death? Why would it imply soul sleep? As a side comment when you read the entire book of Ecclesiastes it is hard to believe that its author believed in an afterlife at all. I think the despair in this book is included in the Bible for a reason, but I am unsure if the theology of the author with respect to the resurrection of souls is correct.


Psalms 104:29,30. "Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth." Life and death are here described together and the words breath and spirit are used the same.

If the fact then is that the body returns to the ground and the breath of life returns to God, then where are the dead? When Peter in Acts 2:34 was speaking about David the patriarch, he answered the question. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand." Acts 2:29, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

The Bible calls death a sleep. Jesus said his friend Lazarus was asleep when he referred to Lazarus' death. "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth" John 11:11.



Psalms 115:17 tells us that "there is no praise of God as far as the dead are concerned. "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."



I just thought you should know what the Bible says on the subject.

Valid question.. God gave me the heart to care.

I am sure you have a caring heart, but why about this topic in particular?

Tsali

[tsali]

Since I responded to a later post of yours, for full disclosure here are my answers to your OP questions.
Bryan

What do you understand about the dead?

Nothing, the Bible is unclear on the state of the dead.


Do you think that they can answer your prayers?

No, I don't think one should pray to them.

Do you think that they can make intercession for you?

They may be able to pray for you, but you are better off asking a living person to pray for you, because at least you can be certain they can hear you.

What does the Bible say about talking with the dead?
Seem to frown on it at least when Saul contacted Solomon, but he did use a witch rather than merely speaking to Solomon.

Tsali

[visionary]

David slept with his fathers. Yeshua said Lazarus was asleep knowing he was dead.

How does those verses fit in?

[RND]

What do you understand about the dead?

Their dead and rsting in the earth. Job 14:10-15

Do you think that they can answer your prayers?

No. Only God the father can answer prayers.

Do you think that they can make intercession for you?

No. There is only one mediator, Jesus Christ.

What does the Bible say about talking with the dead?

Nothing good.

[RND]

Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in which Lazarus was in paradise and the rich man in torment. The rich man asked to send Lazarus to tell his brethren to repent, so normal life was still continuing on Earth. Though this is only a parable it does suggest that Christ was not adverse to the concept of an ongoing afterlife.

If I may. The fact that it was a parable and told in succession with a number of other parables should be a deciding factor for most that the story of Jesus told was a 'comparable and not representative of 'real life.'

There are a number of things that point this out.

1) Before Jesus told this parable He condemned the Pharisees of "spiritual adultery" in the verses immediately preceeding this parable telling. Many of what these Pharisees believed was not scriptural but based on pagen Greek theology.

Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.


2) The "certain rich man" represents someone or something. The fact that he is dressed in "Purple and fine linen" should be a clue as to whom this individual was supposed to represent. Being that he also "faired sumpuously" should also be an indication of an activity of some sort.


3) Lazarus desired to "eat" the "crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores." We know that eating is a metaphore for "reading the Word of God" and ingesting it.

Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Also, gentiles were commonly referred to in Jesus' day as "dogs." Jesus even used the term Himself. Lastly, we see in other parts of the Bible where this is conferred by the interactions Jesus had with others. The story in Matthew 15 of Jesus' interaction with the Canaanite woman make this abundantly clear.

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.

Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Here's the word of God is referred to "the children's bread" and yet the Canaanite woman insisted that even "the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Clearly she was using dog's to refer to herself, a gentile, and was seeking the "crumbs" that fall from the "master's table."

Jesus said that He is the bread of life.

4) Last point. The "rich man" has five brothers. He tells us so. The haughty Jewish religious rulers, to whom this parable was addressed, considered themselves every bit of the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In their minds they were "real Jews."
Jesus knew this about them and that's why He used the "five brothers" analogy.

In the book of Genesis, chapters 29 and 30 describe how Judah had "five brothers." Judah had five "blood brothers" from the children born to Jacob and Leah. Issachar, Zebulun, Reuben, Simeon, and Levi. The Jewish religious leaders of Jesus' day would have known that when Jesus was referring to "five brothers" He was referring to them and their lineage.

For a lengthy but absolutely fascinating sturdy on Luke 16:19-31 please see the following, it's extremely helpful!

Lazarus and the Rich Man
[A Scriptural Journey Through the Intriguing Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man]
L. Ray Smith (http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html)

Saul spoke with Solomon after his death, and Solomon correctly prophesied Saul's demise after scolding him for interrupting his rest.

Could you have been meaning Samuel? Saul was dead during Soloman's reign.

Did you notice that samuel was called "up" from the grave instead of "down" from Heaven? Same thing with Lazarus. He wasn't called "down" from Heaven but told to "come forth" from the grave where he was.

[Texadelphos]

David slept with his fathers. Yeshua said Lazarus was asleep knowing he was dead.

How does those verses fit in?
I like your take on this topic, Visionary. The Bible is very clear on the state of the dead actually being dead, the Tanakh containing the primary evidence of this truth. If there is no consciousness in death, then we can be certain that there is no heaven-going or hell-going for us when we die....only sheol. David is still there, not yet having ascended to heaven; what makes us think we, or those who have died before us, are any different. Only one man has ascended unto the Father, and it is to him that we hope in the Hope of Israel.

Oh yes, the Bible is also very clear on what the soul is, as well as what the spirit is. A careful read of Genesis will show that all living creatures have the breath (spirit) of life given by God. Man is not unique in this regard; soul is simply the body of dust + the breath (spirit) of life given by God. To believe in an immortal soul is to believe in a Christo-pagan theology.

BTW, greetings to all. I just joined this forum today and am perusing around. I am a Christadelphian and, like all Christadelphians, hold dearly to the hope in the promises made by the Father to Abraham and David as revealed in Jesus Christ. It is a pleasure to meet you all.

[visionary]

I am sure you have a caring heart, but why about this topic in particular?

TsaliSomeone brought up the subject of praying to the dead in another thread. Rather than interrupt that thread, I started this one so that we can deal with the subject specifically. That way you do not make rabbit trails in other threads and go way off OP subject matter.

Now back to the subject about the state of the dead.

So who does Saul seek council from? Who does he seek to tell him what he must do?

Seeking After A Familiar Spirit

1 Sam 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
God strongly condemned in scripture what Saul was going to do:

Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.and Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. 14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
So, knowing that God condemned it, Saul still went to consult with a witch, a spirit medium and a necromancer (one who claims to consult with the dead).

[visionary]

1 Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

Now, consider an important point. Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven? No. Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave. He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.

Note also that God was no longer speaking to Saul, and God's prophets were not speaking with Saul (1 Sam 28:6). So now, are we to believe that a witch was going to thwart the will of God by conjuring up Samuel from the grave, so that Saul could speak with a prophet of God, against the explicit will of God? No witch could do such a thing.

Remember also, the witch at Endor was known for having a familiar spirit. What is a familiar spirit anyway? It is not an angel of God, surely, because of God's strong condemnation against consulting with them. A familiar spirit is a demonic spirit, a fallen angel in league with Satan. This is what the woman at Endor had, communication with a demon, a demon who was quite capable of impersonating Samuel. It was NOT Samuel who appeared at her summons, it was a demon masquerading as Samuel. The first thing that the demon did was expose Saul's masquerade to the witch:

1 Sam 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Now exposed to the witch, Saul continues to consult her:

1 Sam 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.Note that Saul did not actually see anything himself, he had to ask the witch who is was that she saw. So based on what the witch said, Saul presumed it was Samuel who he was communicating with, that Samuel had been summoned from the grave to speak with him, since the witch said she could see Samuel coming up from out of the earth (not down from heaven). King Saul was putting his trust completely in a spirit medium, a witch, a necromancer, against the expressed will of God. So the following conversation was not between Saul and Samuel, but between Saul and a witch with a familiar (demonic) spirit:

1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Again, note that Samuel is represented as coming up from the grave, not down from heaven. Saul also affirms that he knows that God refuses to communicate with him any more by any means, yet he expected to get guidance from a dead prophet of God via a familiar (demonic) spirit. The counsel Saul gets predicts the defeat of Israel and his imminent death, along with his sons:

1 Sam 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

[HephzibahBenJudah]

That is very well put :clap: :amen: