Would Jesus be a Conservative Christian?

[HeartLineToYou]

I fear that many conservative Christians are just that because they think they are supposed to. Is the death penalty ok? What about abortion? Is it alright for us to force our beliefs on others? Even democracy? I wrote an article on this on my website: http://heartlinetoyou.webng.com
Google has not picked it up yet but Internet Explorer will get you there.

P.S....Wow, I got blasted for that one...so here is the real version!

Sorry, I tend to be long winded but instead, in this case, while trying to just make a quick point, I didn't even have complete thoughts.
First off...would Jesus be a conservative? No way, because the death penalty is murder, you are taking a life. Their guilt has nothing to do with it. That is between them and God, on Judgement Day. Should they be free to walk the streets? Of course not, any one who is a danger to society should be incarcerated. But killing them is not the answer, it is just us having vengeance on them and we all know God said, "vengeance is Mine".
Granted, the only way they can be rehabilitated is to find Christ, but the ones that truly do, or claim to be born again, we kill them anyway. Our God is a forgiving God but we are not. I hear that all the time, oh I know I must forgive them, and I do, but I still want them executed . That is not forgiveness. It is revenge.
It may have been comments by our beloved GW that woke me up. While Governor, there was a woman named Carla Fay Tucker who had killed two people with an ice pick and was on death row. During that time, she claimed to be born again and admitted to what she had done and was remorseful. She begged him to allow her to live so that she could be a light to the other woman inmates. He mocked her, even using a high pitched voice saying, "please, please". Yes, maybe she was lying to save her own life, but we have no way of knowing that. And by executing these people we are cutting their time short...and could be taking away the possibility of them truly being born again. I do not want their blood on my hands.
As far as...what about abortion...I am against it, it is murder, but I cannot force someone not to have one. God gave us a free will...our choices bring us either eternal life or eternal death. They will stand judgement for their actions. As Christians, I think our job is to minister to them, opening our doors and giving them a home and a home for the unwanted child. That sounds like a better answer to me, instead of just making it illegal.
Thank you for all the responses, good or bad...you were right. And I haven't even read them all yet, only the first few... and thank you Latreia for defending me!

[nyj]

What are we supposed to discuss here? Or do you just want us to increase traffic to your website?

[PreachersWife2004]

The "article" in question seems to be more of a blog-type entry and to be honest, reads like my 12 year old wrote it.

:sigh:

[nyj]

Well, maybe our OP is 12 years old.

[PreachersWife2004]

That thought had crossed my mind...

The OP uses a long overused argument and doesn't really address Jesus at all. I bet if pressed she would be willing to be call Jesus a radical.

[Criada]

Just a clarification - this forum is theologically conservative, not necessarily politically so!! :)

[Albion]

I fear that many conservative Christians are just that because they think they are supposed to.

Interesting observation, considering that everywhere in our society we find inducements to be unconventional, individualistic, and rebellious against traditional values. In view of this, thinking we are what we are merely because we "are supposed to" seems to me to fly in the face of good reasoning.

Is the death penalty ok?

Yes, but if you are asking in connection with what you say afterwards about abortion, keep in mind that the death penalty is imposed only after the criminal has been found guilty of an exceptionally serious crime--usually, the taking of another's life. With abortion, by contrast, we have a case of the taking of a life that is guilty of no crime and been sentenced by no jury of his or her peers as is the case with the condemned criminal who loses his life.

What about abortion? Is it alright for us to force our beliefs on others?

Generally, those who say that "you shouldn't force your beliefs on the rest of us" are quite willing to force their own on the rest of us...just not the beliefs they don't care for personally. Every law that exists represents forcing some moral standard upon society. You are concerned about Democracy, but you can't be for Democracy and agaisnt it at once, you know. Democracy supposes the majority having its way.

If abortion were made illegal, how would that be different from a law prohibiting you from killing your next-door neighbor or the guy who cuts you off on the freeway? After all, prohibiting the killing of THEM amounts to forcing someone's beliefs on you, isn't it? If not, you'd be free to kill, steal, slander, etc. at will.

[Latreia]

Must confess that, at first glance, I felt some indifference about the post. Wrote it off as merely to direct to that website.

At least I did read the OP's other posts on CF. They were real responses to other posts.

Returned to this thread and reading the others' replies, which are less than charitable, sad to say, only then did I
go to the site and read some entries, which I was unable to do at all the way that it was set up....forced to save each article as text file first.

The author is a young mother who is sincerely trying to understand religion, compared with what those around her think. She is not pretending to know it all, on the contrary, she displays every sincere intention of also learning as much as she can; giving long thought to what she has read; open to new information so that she is able to understand better.

She hopes to share her thoughts, perhaps to give others things to think about.

She never gives the impression that she is a theologian with degrees nor does she make final judgements....she is an ongoing project of her Creator.

Whether she seems in error to some, implying that she can be dismissed as a "12 year old" is missing the message.

In fact, such using such labels is missing several messages, some of them Biblical.

What one does see are several online, rather worn, phrases from other minds. Mistaken? Perhaps, , but nonetheless products of agendas that parade as truths.

But what else do we have for our minds to grapple with as we stare at our monitors all day and night?

Heart Line To You, that name tells me more now that I have read your website. Wonderful articles, honestly written to share, they invite, encourge others to reflect and respond.

Please pm me if you would care to ask me anything or if I can be of any help to you.


:hug:

[Hentenza]

Moving to the debate subforum.

[shrewdsnake]

Read not only that entry but several others. It's nice to see a Christian constantly trying to improve one's self and their walk. I do think many Christians automatically go for the Conservative Republican candidate since that party seems to usually represent our beliefs but years ago I went to an Independent listing. I have decided to be lead by God on candidates and not on a party. I have been told my votes have lead to bad candidates being elected but I have never felt that you are supposed to vote for the one you dislike the least but the one you want to win.

I also read, Division in the Church, wanted to let you know our pastor gave a sermon on those things this past Sunday.

Hope to see you around the board.

[ladyt28]

I fear that many conservative Christians are just that because they think they are supposed to. Is the death penalty ok? What about abortion? Is it alright for us to force our beliefs on others? Even democracy? I wrote an article on this on my website: http://heartlinetoyou.webng.com
Google has not picked it up yet but Internet Explorer will get you there.

If I may, I don't believe Jesus would be either. It seems that being a 'conservative' or 'liberal' is in the way one wants to interpret the word of God. With Jesus being the defining word, there is no need for Him to interpret Himself - He would simply be clarifying what He said.
All I can hope is that you don't want to give me change for my 2 cents! ;)

[Cromwe11]

Conservative is a convenient term that usually fits me. but really it is relative.

Conservative and liberal can just as easily be substituted with conventional and unconventional.

Convention is simply that which is agreed upon. Above I said conservative/liberal really equals conventional/unconventional.

It would be more true to say that con/lib really equals conventional and different conventional.

In society at large the truth is most people have never thought enough about the important topics of life to have a real opinion of their own. They have simply accepted conventional opinions given to them by society. The difference between conservative and liberal is that the conservatives like their heretige so they accept the conventions which come from their heretige. Liberals don't like their heretige so they accept conventions that they percieve to be contrary to those of their heretige.
in the most cases, neither side actually involves much independant thought or good reasoning.

[Albion]

Conservative is a convenient term that usually fits me. but really it is relative.

Conservative and liberal can just as easily be substituted with conventional and unconventional.

You have a point there, but although people often talk as though the two are merely a matter of degree, etc. there really are different value systems which Conservatives and Liberals adhere to. Some of this is described in the forum's statement.

The difference between conservative and liberal is that the conservatives like their heretige so they accept the conventions which come from their heretige.

Conservatism emphatically does not just accept whatever has been, and Liberalism doesn't stand for just any kind of change. Both accept certain values and promote them.

in the most cases, neither side actually involves much independant thought or good reasoning.

LOL. Well, it probably does seem that way, considering what people write in Letters to the Editor or say on call-in radio shows!

Really though, the "sides" are well defined, even if quite a few people in society are unaware.

[ladyt28]

Conservative is a convenient term that usually fits me. but really it is relative.

Conservative and liberal can just as easily be substituted with conventional and unconventional.

Convention is simply that which is agreed upon. Above I said conservative/liberal really equals conventional/unconventional.

It would be more true to say that con/lib really equals conventional and different conventional.

In society at large the truth is most people have never thought enough about the important topics of life to have a real opinion of their own. They have simply accepted conventional opinions given to them by society. The difference between conservative and liberal is that the conservatives like their heretige so they accept the conventions which come from their heretige. Liberals don't like their heretige so they accept conventions that they percieve to be contrary to those of their heretige.
in the most cases, neither side actually involves much independant thought or good reasoning.

So how would any of this apply to what Jesus would be?

[Albion]

So how would any of this apply to what Jesus would be?

You know, that's a good point. On the other hand, when we take another look at the OP, we find that other than the title, Jesus had little to do with the message, just what contemporary Conservatives believe about a few things.

So maybe you or some of us should address it here and now: Would Jesus be a Conservative Christian?

I say, "yes." He was not a relativist in his moral teachings, had high standards, respected the heritage of his people, was a "family" man, and placed God and Godliness above all Earthly vanities.

[Izdaari]

So maybe you or some of us should address it here and now: Would Jesus be a Conservative Christian?

I say, "yes." He was not a relativist in his moral teachings, had high standards, respected the heritage of his people, was a "family" man, and placed God and Godliness above all Earthly vanities.
In those respects, I agree Jesus would be what we call conservative. In other respects, I'm not so sure we'd think so. I think he'd tell us a lot of "churchianity" traditions we've developed (in America, many of them based on Yankee Puritanism and/or Southern Redneckism) are purely a human cultural invention, having little to do with God or scripture. I don't think the hot-button political issues would be high on his priority list. And I suspect his style would be a lot more Rob Bell than Jerry Falwell.

[Lisa0315]

I fear that many conservative Christians are just that because they think they are supposed to. Is the death penalty ok? What about abortion? Is it alright for us to force our beliefs on others? Even democracy? I wrote an article on this on my website: http://heartlinetoyou.webng.com
Google has not picked it up yet but Internet Explorer will get you there.


Nah, Jesus was a practicing Orthodox Jew. :doh:

[ContentInHim]

....And I suspect his style would be a lot more Rob Bell than Jerry Falwell.

Nah, Jesus was a practicing Orthodox Jew. :doh:

Exactly, and spent his ministry calling the Jews back to the faith of THEIR fathers and away from the manmade traditions of the Rabbis. Thus I believe that Jesus was conservative in his outlook! :)

[Latreia]

We seem to have forgotten who Christ is.

Is He just another celebrity name to be conjectured about, to toss into the posts and online gossip mentality?

Has His name become a brand name to be just a label for use by agendas and politics?

If one Googles "Conservative Christians" the results clealy indicate that the term has been firmly established in purely polictical terms, and most of them critical and even scathing.

As a convenient stereotype, it is has become entirely removed from the reality of who we are and completely ignores the millions of good lives led by their Christian faith for generations.

Therefore, I know without a doubt that I am not a "Conservative Christian" as defined by those who have doubts about religion but that I am a Christian whose way of life is both conservative and worship-filled with both awe and wonder for God and His Son.

[Albion]

Sorry, I tend to be long winded but instead, in this case, while trying to just make a quick point, I didn't even have complete thoughts.
First off...would Jesus be a conservative? No way, because the death penalty is murder, you are taking a life.
I've noticed before that a lot of people seem to equate Conservativism or Conservative Christianity with Capital Punishment. That is a mistake.

Nothing about Conservative principles makes this a necessary connection, and Liberals as well as Conservatives favor the death penalty under certain circumstances. Similarly, Liberals as well as Conservatives oppose the death penalty.

It might also be noted that it was Conservatives in history, such as Edmund Burke, who early on campaigned for more humane treatment for prisoners, the longterm effect of which was to reduce the imposition of the death penalty. What's more, those countries which today are the most willing to use death as a control over their people are clearly the more revolutionary ones, those which have little regard for conservative and Christian principles.

[Cromwe11]

So how would any of this apply to what Jesus would be?
Very likely he would be rejected by people on both sides.

the interesting thing in this question, to me, is our tendancy to assume that Jesus would be on "our" side, or "their" side. The reality is that Jesus isn't on our side, we are on his side. Or we aren't.

Jesus would definetly not be a liberal because liberalism within the context of our culture is primarily about rejecting the idea of absolute truths in favor of social norms and personal values.
Jesus wouldn't necessarily be a conservative either although conservatism is closer to the truth, many elements of "conservative" christianity still define their beliefs according to their own values, rather than confroming to the bible.

Its kinda like the pharisees and the saducees. Pharisees would be conservatives and saducees would be liberals. Jesus definetly wasn't a saducee and competely disagreed with their views. He was aligned with the pharisees doctrinally, but he still rejected many of them because of their hypocrisy and their allegience to self over God.

[BelindaP]

Reps to you, Cromwell. You've hit it precisely on the head.

[Cromwe11]

You have a point there, but although people often talk as though the two are merely a matter of degree, etc. there really are different value systems which Conservatives and Liberals adhere to. Some of this is described in the forum's statement.

Conservatism emphatically does not just accept whatever has been, and Liberalism doesn't stand for just any kind of change. Both accept certain values and promote them.

Really though, the "sides" are well defined, even if quite a few people in society are unaware.

Within the context of american, or even western civilization as it exists today, this is true.

What I was talking about is if you go to a different time, a different civilization, conservative and liberal would be different than they are here and now, because the terms are relative.

a few hundred years ago people who were 'liberals' would be raving conservatives in america today. In ancient greece Athens was liberal and Sparta was conservative, but they had very different values than 'conservatives' and 'liberals' today in american culture.

[HeartLineToYou]

What are we supposed to discuss here? Or do you just want us to increase traffic to your website?
Hey, thank you for your honesty...please bare with me, I never even heard of forums till I joined CF last week. I have updated my thread !

[HeartLineToYou]

That thought had crossed my mind...

The OP uses a long overused argument and doesn't really address Jesus at all. I bet if pressed she would be willing to be call Jesus a radical.
Well, you are right, you don't have to press me at all. I don't know how a Christian could think Jesus wasn't radical. The people alive at His time sure thought He was, with teachings that changed their lives! To me, that is a radical. Maybe I have the wrong definition of a radical...the sleepy Methodist church I grew up in was the farthest thing from it. I am sorry if you view my website as being written by a 12 year old. I am 46 yr. old woman who has been saved for 25 years and I try to say it simply like it is. Looking back, yes the posting I made was idiotic...please forgive me, I am new to the concept of forums and I have updated it. Thank you for your feedback!

[Colabomb]

The word conservative/Liberal evolves.

He was a liberal by the standards of Palestine at the time, he would definitely be considered a Conservative today.

[HeartLineToYou]

Interesting observation, considering that everywhere in our society we find inducements to be unconventional, individualistic, and rebellious against traditional values. In view of this, thinking we are what we are merely because we "are supposed to" seems to me to fly in the face of good reasoning.



Yes, but if you are asking in connection with what you say afterwards about abortion, keep in mind that the death penalty is imposed only after the criminal has been found guilty of an exceptionally serious crime--usually, the taking of another's life. With abortion, by contrast, we have a case of the taking of a life that is guilty of no crime and been sentenced by no jury of his or her peers as is the case with the condemned criminal who loses his life.



Generally, those who say that "you shouldn't force your beliefs on the rest of us" are quite willing to force their own on the rest of us...just not the beliefs they don't care for personally. Every law that exists represents forcing some moral standard upon society. You are concerned about Democracy, but you can't be for Democracy and agaisnt it at once, you know. Democracy supposes the majority having its way.

If abortion were made illegal, how would that be different from a law prohibiting you from killing your next-door neighbor or the guy who cuts you off on the freeway? After all, prohibiting the killing of THEM amounts to forcing someone's beliefs on you, isn't it? If not, you'd be free to kill, steal, slander, etc. at will.
Thanks for your reply. All I was saying about 'Christians being Conservative Repulicans because they think they're supposed to' is that they may be without ever really thinking about it. I always thought of myself as a cons.repub. because what else is out there? Nothing that has a chance of winning and I would never be a democrat. So now, I'm without a party. And I keep having to reminding myself of that because it is ingrained in me to lean towards the repub. For me, it all comes down to those 2 key issues.
With abortion, yes they are killing an innocent baby, but it isn't the same as murdering your neighbor, etc. because that is the woman's own body and she should be in charge of it, not me. {I did update the original thread.}

[HeartLineToYou]

You know, that's a good point. On the other hand, when we take another look at the OP, we find that other than the title, Jesus had little to do with the message, just what contemporary Conservatives believe about a few things.

So maybe you or some of us should address it here and now: Would Jesus be a Conservative Christian?

I say, "yes." He was not a relativist in his moral teachings, had high standards, respected the heritage of his people, was a "family" man, and placed God and Godliness above all Earthly vanities.
Yes, you are all correct. I had just signed up and was in such a hurry to get some dialogue started that I wasn't even making sense. I did update my original thread, but thank you all for getting the ball rolling!

[HeartLineToYou]

I've noticed before that a lot of people seem to equate Conservativism or Conservative Christianity with Capital Punishment. That is a mistake.

Nothing about Conservative principles makes this a necessary connection, and Liberals as well as Conservatives favor the death penalty under certain circumstances. Similarly, Liberals as well as Conservatives oppose the death penalty.

It might also be noted that it was Conservatives in history, such as Edmund Burke, who early on campaigned for more humane treatment for prisoners, the longterm effect of which was to reduce the imposition of the death penalty. What's more, those countries which today are the most willing to use death as a control over their people are clearly the more revolutionary ones, those which have little regard for conservative and Christian principles.
The problem I have is if we are 'Conservative' who else are we going to vote for but the Conservative Republicans, I would love to vote Independent but until everybody else does as well, I'm throwing my vote away and the Democrats win. But voting for the Republicans means I am condoning the death penalty. And I can't imagine Christ supporting it either.
I'm hoping to reach everyone that has posted to be sure they are aware that Idid add to my original thread which was really lacking!

[BelindaP]

Start a movement. A third party only gets started when people stop worrying about throwing their votes away and really start voting. It's happened before, and it can happen again.

[nyj]

Start a movement. A third party only gets started when people stop worrying about throwing their votes away and really start voting. It's happened before, and it can happen again.When's the last time a truly successful third party rose up in the United States? Neither the Democrats, or the Republicans ... want to see a third party. For all their griping about each other ... they know they've got the sort of situation that will allow them both to persist.

[BelindaP]

I believe it was either shortly before or shortly after the Civil War. But, I never give up hope.

[Albion]

The problem I have is if we are 'Conservative' who else are we going to vote for but the Conservative Republicans, I would love to vote Independent but until everybody else does as well, I'm throwing my vote away and the Democrats win. But voting for the Republicans means I am condoning the death penalty. And I can't imagine Christ supporting it either.
I'm hoping to reach everyone that has posted to be sure they are aware that Idid add to my original thread which was really lacking!

Well, that's the nature of elections. You get to choose between two people and have to take account of all that each one stands for. Usually, the voter goes for the one whose views are most like his own overall, but occasionally, that's hard to do if one very important position is being considered.

Speaking for myself only, I'd take the conservative Republican who is for the death penalty over the liberal Democrat who says he is against it but who has no power to force states with the death penalty to stop using it anyway. IOW, voting for president on the basis of this issue is more a theoretical than a practical matter since he or she doesn't have much to do with it as President.

[Albion]

When's the last time a truly successful third party rose up in the United States? Neither the Democrats, or the Republicans ... want to see a third party. For all their griping about each other ... they know they've got the sort of situation that will allow them both to persist.

How do we judge "successful?" By almost any standard there has been no successful third party since about the time the Republican Party was founded about a century and a half ago.

More to the point, everyone should know that a third party is not going to succeed in the near future since all the state laws are set by the legislatures of these states and you know who sits in those legislatures--Democrats and Republicans. They have at least this much in common--they don't want to accomodate third parties and so have stacked the deck against them in many ways. Occasionally, someone gets on most state ballots in a run for the Presidency, but as for a party organization that can elect anyone to any other post, forget it.

[Albion]

With abortion, yes they are killing an innocent baby, but it isn't the same as murdering your neighbor, etc. because that is the woman's own body and she should be in charge of it, not me.

I understand, although I disagree in view of the fact that it is legal to kill unborn children in this country at the moment of birth and long after the child is able to live on its own. Were all abortions performed before "quickening," the perspective of many people might be different.

[BelindaP]

We got close with Perot. If he had been willing to step down in the next election and let somebody else have a go, it would have worked.

[Albion]

We got close with Perot. If he had been willing to step down in the next election and let somebody else have a go, it would have worked.

Possibly, but we were talking about third parties and his party never elected anyone to Congress, a State legislature, or anything like that. I think there may have been a city commissioner running in a non-partisan race here or there. That's all. So even this relatively successful presidential candidacy accomplished nothing that would make a "third party" really a party, and I seriously doubt that had he stepped aside this would have changed. It never did for any of the other third parties of the past century.

[BelindaP]

I still have the dream, though.

[Albion]

I still have the dream, though.

I know...and I am quite sympathetic to third parties myself. I didn't want to give the impression that I am not. But I do know how the electoral machinery is set up, and it places so many obstacles in the way of any third party that we are not likely to see any make a serious dent in the two-party system in the near future. If you want to read the various efforts of all the third parties trying to get on state ballots, etc. there is a website hosted by Ballot Access News, I think it is called, and it's very revealing. You'd like reading the monthy reports.

[HeartLineToYou]

Where do i belong? I was a conservative Christian long before I even became born again. I grew up thinking I was a Christian...I believed in Jesus, but never knew you needed to be born again. When I was born again at age 21, politically nothing changed. My parents were Conservative Christian Republicans and that is what I was, already.
Once I started examining my beliefs...20 years later, I find that I am against the death penalty, because whether you call it murder or killing, it is wrong. Accidentally killing someone is something different, and these days they call that manslaughter, I guess. I'm not talking man's laws, I'm talking in God's eyes....murder is murder, it's taking another persons life, intentionally.
So, I cannot support any political party that supports the death penalty. That is taking vengeance on that person. I don't care how guilty that person is...no matter how much harm they caused...we, as Christians have no authority to take their life. God said, vengeance is Mine. That is between them and God, and He will hold them accountable.
The next thing is...democracy and abortion.
Yes, democracy is a great thing, and abortion is abominable. But as Christians, are we supposed to force our beliefs on others? We do not try to force our religious beliefs on anyone...so why with morality issues do we try to do so? Could you be the one that flicks the switch to execute someone that has done unmentionable things...even to a child? As horrible as that is, I could not. That is not my place. They should be incarcerated, for the rest of their lives. Even if they claim to be born again, because we have no way of proving it.
As a Christian, if there was a woman wanting an abortion, could you keep her locked up so that she could not abort her child? Probably not, but if we make it illegal it is the same thing.
Having those in power to enforce these things does not negate our participation. If we put in office those that support it, the blood is on our hands. Can you picture Jesus forcing a woman to not have an abortion? No, He would take her in, provide all her needs, take care of her job situation and provide a loving home for her unwanted baby. Tell me I'm wrong! Illegalizing it is the easy way out. I am against abortion, but it is not up to me to dictate what a woman does with her own body. That is not the same as murder. Murder is taking the life of someone who has already been born, and they have as many rights as you and I. A woman should be aloud to govern her own body. And while we are on the subject, suicide should not be illegal either. Yeah, they will probably go to hell for killing themselves, but it isn't up to us, that is between their soul and God. Our job is to assist and minister to them as much as humanly possible. That is all Jesus would do.
We would never, in a million years, try to force others to believe in Jesus Christ and force them to repent for their sins. So why have we crossed the line?
I want to be surrounded, in this forum, at least, by Christians who believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. No errors, no changes. I debated atheists and Christians for a couple of years in the AOL chat rooms and that is the number 1 reason I stopped. They have it locked into their brains that is has been changed, and there is a large number of "christians" that believe the same thing. I don't see how a true follower of Christ could think such a thing. Does that make me a Conservative?
I have read the CC guidelines and I agreed with everything except with the political aspect. I still am drawn to the Republican candidates. I voted for GW and his dad, and Reagan. There are no others that come close. But they and the rest of the Republican party support these issues. I can't, anymore. So, I guess I don't even get to vote, because voting for the 3rd party will be a waste, and my vote will go to the democrats...ugh!
So, where do I belong? Do you guys all vote Republican? Is that how ALL CC's vote? That is what I feared the last couple of years so I thought I was no longer a CC. Then posting and reading in this forum for the last week it brought back all the old turmoil. So, where do I fit in?

[Izdaari]

So, where do I belong? Do you guys all vote Republican? Is that how ALL CC's vote? That is what I feared the last couple of years so I thought I was no longer a CC. Then posting and reading in this forum for the last week it brought back all the old turmoil. So, where do I fit in?

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I don't vote for the party. I vote for the individual who seems best qualified by ability, by temperament and character, by experience, and by holding ideas that are in my best judgment good for the country. But since I strongly believe today's Democratic ideas are absolutely wretched for the country, I'm usually going to have a strong preference for the Republican. When I have the luxury of voting purely on principle (i.e., when it's obvious my vote will have no effect on the outcome), I generally vote Libertarian, as theirs are the ideas I agree with most.

[SolomonVII]

Many conservatives are becoming more and more against the death penalty. It is part of our pro-life reasoning.

Forcing beliefs on others?
That is not really conservative thang, but is mostly liberal rhetoric.
The law is for the protection of those who cannot protect themselves, and ensuring that people are kept to minimal standards of behavior.

Everyday our morality is enforced on murderers and rapists.

And if it is not our morality being imposed, then just what is it?

The 'law' of the jungle where the head honcho gorilla has sex with whoever he pleases and chases off any any opponent works well enough. If not deemed morally repugnant, then there is no natural reason why violence and strength cannot be the adequate reason for human behavior too.


A fetus as part of a woman's body? You would be hard pressed to demonstrate that Jesus or the Bible held that view.

If a fetus is not ensouled, then it is hardly a moral question. If a fetus is ensouled, like John the Baptists so obviously was, then he is unique from the mother's body.
But I guess that argument has already been lost 60 million fetuses ago.

People that can make the argument that the fetus is not worthy of legal protection cannot rationally believe that there is a person that we are dealing with.
For if they did so believe, they would be arguing against rape laws and murder laws as impostions of our morality on others too.

[Albion]

Where do i belong?...I cannot support any political party that supports the death penalty. That is taking vengeance on that person. I don't care how guilty that person is...no matter how much harm they caused...we, as Christians have no authority to take their life. God said, vengeance is Mine. That is between them and God, and He will hold them accountable.

The next thing is...democracy and abortion.
Yes, democracy is a great thing, and abortion is abominable. But as Christians, are we supposed to force our beliefs on others?

All voting does that, so you could be uninvolved. But then you are responsible if those who win do what you consider immoral.

As a Christian, if there was a woman wanting an abortion, could you keep her locked up so that she could not abort her child? Probably not, but if we make it illegal it is the same thing.

No, it is not. Not unless a law prohibiting abortion were to specify this penalty, which none has ever proposed doing and which would be illegal in itself. All manner of laws are on the books prohibiting speeding or throwing trash around or burning without a permit or whatever, and there is no prior restraint against every person with a car or pile of leaves in his yard.

[If we put in office those that support it, the blood is on our hands.

And if you don't try to stop those who are in office by working for other office-seekers, isn't it still on your hands?

We would never, in a million years, try to force others to believe in Jesus Christ and force them to repent for their sins. So why have we crossed the line?

We havcn't. This is about government, not belief in any religion.

I want to be surrounded, in this forum, at least, by Christians who believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. No errors, no changes.

As you interpret the Word of God, that is.

Those who can point to the death penalty as being IN THE BIBLE and approved might say the same to you, you know. In fact, none of us here believes exactly the same on every possible doctrine. That doesn't mean that we recoil from discussing with people who are mainly like ourselves and accept the principles of the forum as a minimum.


I have read the CC guidelines and I agreed with everything except with the political aspect.

Do you mean that our values have a public impact? There's nothing in the statement that identifies the position you have to take on most public policy or legislation.

I still am drawn to the Republican candidates. I voted for GW and his dad, and Reagan. There are no others that come close. But they and the rest of the Republican party support these issues. I can't, anymore. So, I guess I don't even get to vote, because voting for the 3rd party will be a waste, and my vote will go to the democrats...ugh!
So, where do I belong?

Moderate Christians?

[Criada]

I have read the CC guidelines and I agreed with everything except with the political aspect. I still am drawn to the Republican candidates. I voted for GW and his dad, and Reagan. There are no others that come close. But they and the rest of the Republican party support these issues. I can't, anymore. So, I guess I don't even get to vote, because voting for the 3rd party will be a waste, and my vote will go to the democrats...ugh!
So, where do I belong? Do you guys all vote Republican? Is that how ALL CC's vote? That is what I feared the last couple of years so I thought I was no longer a CC. Then posting and reading in this forum for the last week it brought back all the old turmoil. So, where do I fit in?


Where in the guidelines is the 'political aspect'?
As I understand it, this forum is for those who have a conservative faith (which I do), not necessarily conservative politics (which I don't!)
Being English, the death penalty thing isn't so much of an issue. But would not vote for anyone who supported it, any more than I would vote for someone who supported abortion.
Either you are pro-life or you are not - life outside the womb is as sacred as that inside!

[Albion]

Either you are pro-life or you are not - life outside the womb is as sacred as that inside!

Not to pick a fight with anyone, but that's is just a slogan. "Pro-Life" is just a recently-devised term, and one can indeed be in favor of the death penalty and be pro-life.

We subscribe to the Bible and Tradition, both of which support the death penalty. This doesn't mean that those who hold another view are my adversaries, but they are stepping aside from the CC norm on this matter, just as we all probably do on something or other and from time to time.

[Criada]

Not to pick a fight with anyone, but that's is just a slogan. "Pro-Life" is just a recently-devised term, and one can indeed be in favor of the death penalty and be pro-life.

We subscribe to the Bible and Tradition, both of which support the death penalty. This doesn't mean that those who hold another view are my adversaries, but they are stepping aside from the CC norm on this matter, just as we all probably do on something or other and from time to time.
See, I think this is another cultural gap.
Because in England it is pretty unusual for a Christian to be in favour of the death penalty... whereas in the US it seems to be normal, and indeed 'traditional'.
Not criticising - we will have to agree to differ on this one! :)

[Lisa0315]

Not to pick a fight with anyone, but that's is just a slogan. "Pro-Life" is just a recently-devised term, and one can indeed be in favor of the death penalty and be pro-life.

We subscribe to the Bible and Tradition, both of which support the death penalty. This doesn't mean that those who hold another view are my adversaries, but they are stepping aside from the CC norm on this matter, just as we all probably do on something or other and from time to time.

I am but a visitor so I am not going to debate this...However, can you expound upon what you think the CC norm would be in relationship to the death penalty? I know many, many Conservatives who are pro-life all the way even for criminals who probably deserve such a punishment.

Lisa

[Albion]

I am but a visitor so I am not going to debate this...However, can you expound upon what you think the CC norm would be in relationship to the death penalty? I know many, many Conservatives who are pro-life all the way even for criminals who probably deserve such a punishment.

Lisa

Hi. First, I think that we have to acknowledge that no one fits 100% into either a Liberal or a Conservative mold. Given all the positions on all social and religious matters that come up, it is almost impossible for everyone who is called by either of those terms to be an exact duplicate of another person. This is why I am not about to declare someone not conservative if he or she departs from the norm here or there.

However, we can know what the norm is. We can know what a Conservative and a Christian ought to be, according to the meaning of those terms.

This is why I occasionally point out that an atypical comment is welcome but, at the same time, we should not think that it is anything but an exception.

The normative Conservative position is not to oppose the death penalty. The normative Christian position is not to oppose the death penalty. Are Quakers, who oppose the death penalty as well as war and taking oaths in court...Christians, then? Sure, but they are atypical on those particular issues (to use them for an example). Christianity is not, thereby, defined by their views. To use a familiar saying, the exception does not prove the rule.

Historically, the death penalty has been held to be appropriate in certain situations. It has been part of our society's life for thousands of years. Is it conservative to maintain existing social policies of longstanding and which have been successful? We all know that the answer is "yes." Conservatives, as I noted earlier, have been in the forefront of narrowing the use of it, but when it comes to the rightness or wrongness of it as a policy, it is conservative to accept the validity of Capital Punishment.

In fact, we could go one step further. What if we decided as a society to give it up because it is too hard to be sure if we have the right man? That would be something for society to decide, but note...that is not the same as saying that the death penalty is inherently wrong. We'd be making a practical decision, not as the opponents often do when they argue that it is not what God would do, etc.

When it comes to the Christian side of things, it is no secret that almost every Christian denomination, Catholic or Protestant, knows that the death penalty is Godly. The Bible clearly tells us as much. Most, by the way, of those who argue the opposite make the mistake of thinking that the idea of God as the ultimate judge of men's souls means that we are not to order our social lives here and now, administer justice, keep peace, and so on.

Finally, people call themselves whatever they want. Nothing can be done about that. What we can do, though, is appreciate what Liberalism, Conservatism, or any other political grouping stands for as a movement. Although many people don't think so, these do have definition and a track record. We merely associate ourselves with these historical groupings. We don't make them what we would like them to be.

[Criada]

.

[HeartLineToYou]

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I don't vote for the party. I vote for the individual who seems best qualified by ability, by temperament and character, by experience, and by holding ideas that are in my best judgment good for the country. But since I strongly believe today's Democratic ideas are absolutely wretched for the country, I'm usually going to have a strong preference for the Republican. When I have the luxury of voting purely on principle (i.e., when it's obvious my vote will have no effect on the outcome), I generally vote Libertarian, as theirs are the ideas I agree with most.
Once again, I messed up. Where do I fit in was supposed to be a new thread, didn't mean to come in and change the subject. Looking back, this thread should have been titled, Would Jesus be a Republican, because that is where my concern is.
Anyway, we are solar powered and my laptop is about to hybernate so I'll be back later.

[SolomonVII]

Jesus as a Republican?

Hmmm

well to put it another way, If Jesus was a Democrat, rubbing shoulders with Harry Reid and Michael Moore and the like, wouldn't that make all Republicans heretics?
Wouldn't Maggie Thatcher become the antiChrist, and George Bush Beezelbub, if Jesus was really a card carrying Democrat?

When God becomes totally politicized, then the other party cannot help but become demonized.

Now I consider Democrats and liberals in general to be wrong, but not generally evil. (Likely with al the talk on behalf of Democrats that Bush is a Nazi, or that Petreaus is a liar, there is a lot of demonization going on from the other direction, but that is beside the point I am making).

But it is not all that useful to the poltical process in general for that to happen.

As self-described conservatives, we differ by degrees from self-described liberals. Liberals tend to look to government for social justice; conservatives to individual initiative etc. The nation itself gets defined in the give and take, and the twisting and turning of the very real and honest debate between the two poles.

Jesus is not no Joe Six_Pack to Christians. He is God. To make God favor one side or the other destroys the whole democratic process.

That is neither a useful nor a good thing, imho.

[Izdaari]

A big amen to what CW just said! :amen:

And I would like to add that it isn't just counter-productive to try to co-opt Jesus into our own politics, it's also profoundly false. In some ways, you could say Jesus was conservative or liberal, libertarian or socialist, but only in certain ways. Overall, trying to paint Jesus as any of those things misses the point.

Jesus was not only not a Republican or a Democrat, but was about as deliberately non-political as anyone could possibly be. He talked about what individuals could do to change the world, but didn't say a thing about what governments should do. It's pretty clear to me that he was all about changing the world one person at a time. :preach:

[Albion]

I tend to agree. The "Would Jesus _____?" format of questioning originated with an effort to co-opt Jesus for some current political purpose.

Would Jesus carry a draft card? Remember that one? Well, of course, it was supposed to elicit a "I guess not" answer from the listener and for one purpose only--to make carrying a draft card seem somehow related to the Bible or to Jesus' ministry, which it otherwise would be hard to do.

So also with, Would Jesus be a Republican? or Would Jesus be a Democrat?

At the same time, it is fair to ask if Jesus' teachings are compatible with various socio-political causes of our times, such as abortion, breaking some law or other, paying your taxes, and so on. But when it is asked if Jesus were a member of this or that or if he would do something that he obviously could not do, in his time on Earth, it's a gimmick.

I don't believe, BTW, that the writer of the OP meant it in that way. However, we've become accustomed to hearing questions put in this way, and it's easy to fall into using it ourselves.

[Joykins]

If you are really interested in the politics of Jesus, remember that Jesus was part of a subject nation of the Roman Empire and preached the Kingdom of God. He was radical and subversive when it came to conventional religion (to Jesus conventional religion was insufficient, and the scene he made at the Temple made enough impression on the religious authorities to have them plan his death), but he always preached that one needed to go farther than traditional morality into the kind of outward-and-inward righteousness that God desires. He fed the hungry, healed the sick and disabled, and cast out demons from the afflicted.

How that applies to contemporary politics is much more difficult to work out. What is the Kingdom of God, anyway? How can we cultivate it within ourselves and how can we influence society that some of it will be done on earth as it is in heaven?

[Albion]

If you are really interested in the politics of Jesus,

I'm not of the opinion that we are interested in the politics of Jesus when we ask if he'd be a conservative Christian. Despite the wording of the OP, to be a CC here is only to be a Christian (which Jesus certainly was) and a traditional one (again, no question in Jesus' case). Yes, he was a Conservative Christian, if the question makes sense at all.

I remember that Jesus was part of a subject nation of the Roman Empire and preached the Kingdom of God. He was radical and subversive when it came to conventional religion

I disagree there. Jesus kept the feasts and observances of his religion. He went to Synagogue. He went on the journey with his parents to the Temple when he was 12 where his knowledge of the Hebrew religion astounded the elders. He taught belief in and adherence to the Ten Commandments and to the concepts of God that his people had learned and which set them apart from neighboring peoples. He was apparently having a Passover meal with his Apostles near to the time he was betrayed. And politically, he famously taught submission to the authorities, even to the point of surrendering himself to them for execution. He advised paying one's taxes and not resisting the police, etc. etc.

We could go on, but to think that he was subversive or radical because he taught that really living and believing what one follows externally, doesn't really hold water as an argument IMO. He was accused of such by some people in his own time, but that doesn't mean we can't appeciate the real picture. What he taught about living one's religion and what is in the heart is good advice at any time to members of any religion, not something that subverts it.

[Joykins]

I'm not of the opinion that we are interested in the politics of Jesus when we ask if he'd be a conservative Christian. Despite the wording of the OP, to be a CC here is only to be a Christian (which Jesus certainly was) and a traditional one (again, no question in Jesus' case). Yes, he was a Conservative Christian, if the question makes sense at all.

He wasn't a Christian, he was Jewish :confused:

He was radical and subversive when it came to conventional religion
I disagree there. Jesus kept the feasts and observances of his religion. He went to Synagogue. He went on the journey with his parents to the Temple when he was 12 where his knowledge of the Hebrew religion astounded the elders. He taught belief in and adherence to the Ten Commandments and to the concepts of God that his people had learned and which set them apart from neighboring peoples. He was apparently having a Passover meal with his Apostles near to the time he was betrayed. And politically, he famously taught submission to the authorities, even to the point of surrendering himself to them for execution. He advised paying one's taxes and not resisting the police, etc. etc.

We could go on, but to think that he was subversive or radical because he taught that really living and believing what one follows externally, doesn't really hold water as an argument IMO. He was accused of such by some people in his own time, but that doesn't mean we can't appeciate the real picture. What he taught about living one's religion and what is in the heart is good advice at any time to members of any religion, not something that subverts it.

By "conventional religion" I mean the kind of religion that the Pharisees and later rabbinical teachers developed, where one pleases God by following the conventions of the faith. Jesus showed that not only were conventions inadequate (the Sermon on the Mount) but that they existed to serve the spirit of the law rather than the letter--

Mark 2:23-28

Matthew 15:1-20

[Albion]

He wasn't a Christian, he was Jewish :confused:

Pretty hard to argue that the founder of a religion, particularly one bearing his own name, did not belong to it. Yes, we know that he was raised in the Hebrew faith, or were you making a joke? It's hard to tell from the smilie.

By "conventional religion" I mean the kind of religion that the Pharisees and later rabbinical teachers developed, where one pleases God by following the conventions of the faith. Jesus showed that not only were conventions inadequate (the Sermon on the Mount) but that they existed to serve the spirit of the law rather than the letter.

I think I covered that. But living up to the soul and substance of any religion is not, I submit, to subvert it. It is to make it MORE meaningful. A real radical would have called for abandoning all that the religion stood for, wheras he maintained the faith of his people while calling for them to make it real in their hearts, to take it more seriously, we might say.

[Joykins]

Pretty hard to argue that the founder of a religion, particularly one bearing his own name, did not belong to it. Yes, we know that he was raised in the Hebrew faith, or were you making a joke? It's hard to tell from the smilie.

He lived, operated, and taught as a Jewish rabbi.

Christianity as a separate religion as opposed to a movement within Judaism really only began after the resurrection, when the apostles started proselytizing the gentiles.

[Izdaari]

He lived, operated, and taught as a Jewish rabbi.

Christianity as a separate religion as opposed to a movement within Judaism really only began after the resurrection, when the apostles started proselytizing the gentiles.
:amen:

And I would add that Paul never thought of himself as a member of a new religion: He saw himself as a faithful Jew who accepted the Jewish Messiah, and the gentiles he brought in were "honorary Jews" because they too accepted the Jewish Messiah.

[BelindaP]

Jesus as a Republican?

Hmmm

well to put it another way, If Jesus was a Democrat, rubbing shoulders with Harry Reid and Michael Moore and the like, wouldn't that make all Republicans heretics?
Wouldn't Maggie Thatcher become the antiChrist, and George Bush Beezelbub, if Jesus was really a card carrying Democrat?

When God becomes totally politicized, then the other party cannot help but become demonized.

Now I consider Democrats and liberals in general to be wrong, but not generally evil. (Likely with al the talk on behalf of Democrats that Bush is a Nazi, or that Petreaus is a liar, there is a lot of demonization going on from the other direction, but that is beside the point I am making).

But it is not all that useful to the poltical process in general for that to happen.

As self-described conservatives, we differ by degrees from self-described liberals. Liberals tend to look to government for social justice; conservatives to individual initiative etc. The nation itself gets defined in the give and take, and the twisting and turning of the very real and honest debate between the two poles.

Jesus is not no Joe Six_Pack to Christians. He is God. To make God favor one side or the other destroys the whole democratic process.

That is neither a useful nor a good thing, imho.

Where are your reps, man?

[Albion]

He lived, operated, and taught as a Jewish rabbi.

But he did also intend to found a new Church, his own Church.

It is not the case that his followers established one, and that he had no intention of them doing such a thing. He said that he would "build my church," and he predicted success for it.

Therefore, to see him only as a Jewish rabbi I think is incorrect. He did live that way until close to the end of his ministry and of course we know taht Christianity comes out of Judaism and continues the basics of it.

Christianity as a separate religion as opposed to a movement within Judaism really only began after the resurrection, when the apostles started proselytizing the gentiles.

...according to Jesus' commission to them to do this.

But the main problem with this thread is still that the question is really not particularly workable. Jesus cannot be described in the terms that the OP uses, but that doesn't mean that we can say that he is opposed to the proposition either.

[HeartLineToYou]

But the main problem with this thread is still that the question is really not particularly workable. Jesus cannot be described in the terms that the OP uses, but that doesn't mean that we can say that he is opposed to the proposition either.

I've been wanting to change the title since the minute I posted the thread. It should read, Would Jesus be a Conservative Republican. And no, I don't believe they would get His vote. I don't think He would support any party that promoted the death penalty.

[Izdaari]

I've been wanting to change the title since the minute I posted the thread. It should read, Would Jesus be a Conservative Republican. And no, I don't believe they would get His vote. I don't think He would support any party that promoted the death penalty.

If Jesus were here physically now, I don't think there''s much of anybody out there He'd be inclined to vote for. When He was with us before He showed no interest in politics. I doubt He would even vote.

[Latreia]

Perhaps He has cast the most important "vote" ever known......on the Cross.

[PreachersWife2004]

I've been wanting to change the title since the minute I posted the thread. It should read, Would Jesus be a Conservative Republican. And no, I don't believe they would get His vote. I don't think He would support any party that promoted the death penalty.


His Father certainly did:

Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

And I agree with the premise that Jesus wouldn't belong to any political group if he were here now.

[HeartLineToYou]

His Father certainly did:

Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

And I agree with the premise that Jesus wouldn't belong to any political group if he were here now.
Right, but that is Old Testament. Killing was the punishment for many crimes. Jesus was the new covenant which changed everything. He will be taking vengeance when He returns. And vengeance is the Lord's, not ours...
I actually started a new thread in General Political Discussions because this one did not start out right...not even the title...and thank you...PreachersWife...you were one of the ones that called me on it!

[HeartLineToYou]

If Jesus were here physically now, I don't think there''s much of anybody out there He'd be inclined to vote for. When He was with us before He showed no interest in politics. I doubt He would even vote.
I don't think so either. God hates government. He wanted to be Israel's King, but they wanted an earthly king. He warned them against it but they didn't listen.
America is predominantly, a Christian nation. So we should be setting an example to the rest of the world, living and breathing the Word of God, with no exceptions...like committing murder every time we execute someone.

[Christian Soldier]

Right, but that is Old Testament. Killing was the punishment for many crimes. Jesus was the new covenant which changed everything. He will be taking vengeance when He returns. And vengeance is the Lord's, not ours...
I actually started a new thread in General Political Discussions because this one did not start out right...not even the title...and thank you...PreachersWife...you were one of the ones that called me on it!

By his own statement, Jesus came to FULFILL the Law, not change it.

"Vengeance is the Lord's" is a phrase originating in the Old Testament, as does Genesis 9:6. So your faulty liberal logic fails. God has AUTHORIZED us to eliminate murderers, thus we are NOT taking vengeance into our own hands. We are obeying His Law, which Jesus came to FULFILL.

[Cromwe11]

I don't think so either. God hates government. He wanted to be Israel's King, but they wanted an earthly king. He warned them against it but they didn't listen.
America is predominantly, a Christian nation. So we should be setting an example to the rest of the world, living and breathing the Word of God, with no exceptions...like committing murder every time we execute someone.
God hates government??? excuse me? where exactly do you see that written?

Committing murder every time we execute someone?

I can't even comment on this...:doh:

[Albion]

I've been wanting to change the title since the minute I posted the thread. It should read, Would Jesus be a Conservative Republican. And no, I don't believe they would get His vote. I don't think He would support any party that promoted the death penalty.


It became apparent after awhile that this is what really was intended by the title, but because the original asked the CC forum about Jesus being a CC, it seemed that there was a logic at work there.

These kinds of questions are always difficult, if not impossible, since we are asking the past about being part of the future which is really unrealistic.

And I do wonder also if Jesus would be a Conservative Republican, or a voter at all. I don't know. But I do know that he would not vote Democratic. Whether or not he'd hold his nose and vote Republican is hard to say.

[WannaWitness]

The world of politics is such a mess that I doubt Jesus would ever involve himself. I can about imagine that Jesus is probably shaking his head over it all.

One's political affiliation, be it Democrat, Republican, Independent, Green, Liberatarian (and so on), has no bearing on being theologically conservative.

[twistedsketch]

No way, because the death penalty is murder, you are taking a life. Their guilt has nothing to do with it. That is between them and God, on Judgement Day.
This contradicts the Bible. God commanded us not to murder, but He also commanded that murderers be executed. He does not contradict Himself, so a just execution and murder cannot be the same thing. The Hebrew connotations of the different words for "execute" and "murder" illustrate this.

As far as...what about abortion...I am against it, it is murder, but I cannot force someone not to have one. God gave us a free will...our choices bring us either eternal life or eternal death. They will stand judgement for their actions.
But this doesn't mean we should let "real" murderers run free, then does it? Even you said that those who kill others shouldn't be out on the streets. I cannot accept this argument unless it comes from a 100% anarchist, because at least they are consistent.

As Christians, I think our job is to minister to them, opening our doors and giving them a home and a home for the unwanted child. That sounds like a better answer to me, instead of just making it illegal.
True enough. The church should do more of those things, but abortion should be illegal as well, for the reasons I stated above. We can do it. We did it with prostitution in 19th
century England. In fact, legalized prostitution was successfully fought by a women's ministry that mainly reached out to prostitutes and rehabilitated them.

[Albion]

The world of politics is such a mess that I doubt Jesus would ever involve himself. I can about imagine that Jesus is probably shaking his head over it all.

One's political affiliation, be it Democrat, Republican, Independent, Green, Liberatarian (and so on), has no bearing on being theologically conservative.

That's true, but to be completely fair, the concept of a Conservative Christian as used on this forum does include being socially and/or politically active in the furtherance of the values we stand for. You don't have to do that personally, of course, but doing so is not separate from being a Conservative Christian. To be a "Conservative Christian," in other words, does not mean being (as you said) "theologically conserative" only.

[Christian Soldier]

As far as...what about abortion...I am against it, it is murder, but I cannot force someone not to have one. God gave us a free will...our choices bring us either eternal life or eternal death. They will stand judgement for their actions.

You admit it's murder, so let's apply your illogic to some other examples:

"I'm against lynching black people, it's murder, but I cannot force someone not to do it."

"I'm against gassing Jews, it's murder, but I cannot force someone not to do it."

I hope you can now see the error in your logic. :wave:

[WannaWitness]

That's true, but to be completely fair, the concept of a Conservative Christian as used on this forum does include being socially and/or politically active in the furtherance of the values we stand for. You don't have to do that personally, of course, but doing so is not separate from being a Conservative Christian. To be a "Conservative Christian," in other words, does not mean being (as you said) "theologically conserative" only.

Then I guess, being "Indy" (which I am assuming means "nonpartisan" on CF) I thought seriously I'd be able to qualify to be a part of CC because of being conservative theologically. I am in agreement that abortion and homosexuality is wrong, however, there are other issues equally as important that are touched on in the Bible, such as care for the poor and unfortunate (many of whom did not "bring it on themselves" but have simply hit hard times and can't ever seem to make ends meet). That's why I am unaffiliated. I tend to think that there is good and bad in both parties, and that all politicians, no matter what their party is, need prayer.

So.... can I still be considered "conservative"? :confused:

[Criada]

That's true, but to be completely fair, the concept of a Conservative Christian as used on this forum does include being socially and/or politically active in the furtherance of the values we stand for. You don't have to do that personally, of course, but doing so is not separate from being a Conservative Christian. To be a "Conservative Christian," in other words, does not mean being (as you said) "theologically conserative" only.
I am not sure that this is the understanding of the majority here...

[Rochir]

You might as well ask if Jesus was a liberal! :)

Of course, He was! :)

[Colabomb]

You might as well ask if Jesus was a liberal! :)

Of course, He was! :)

Ah, but Rochir, the definition of liberal changes. Jesus was a liberal, for his time.

I would have been a liberal 50 years ago (I believe Genesis is figurative, and I support the ordination of women). However i've been called a "bigoted" conservative more than a few times on CF.

Frankly it is difficult to decide if historical figures are liberal or conservative, because you always have the question "Conservative compared to what?".

And conservative on what issues? I am very conservative on some things, and fairly liberal on others (for example i believe homosexuality to be wrong, yet i support civil unions). I don't think any one is entirely "Liberal" or "Conservative".

[WannaWitness]

Frankly it is difficult to decide if historical figures are liberal or conservative, because you always have the question "Conservative compared to what?".

Good thought.

[anticonspiracytheories]

According to the bible, this is what Jesus said regarding political issues:

1)Anti-death penalty - Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

2)Pro-welfare system - Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

3)Pro-gun - Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

4)Pro-Abortion? - Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

5)Pro-Political amnesty - Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Of course, it is sort of difficult to pinpoint what Jesus would do in today's political world, because much of what he said was based on things happening 2000 years ago. Ultimately, a conservative will find Jesus being conservative on issues, and a liberal will do the same about Jesus being liberal on issues. Both can find scripture to do it.

[anticonspiracytheories]

Also, just a note. Depending on some definitions of "conservative", then one could easily say the pharisees were the conservatives of their day, while Jesus came to change the foundation of their views.

[NewGuy101]

Jesus would support the contemporary view of conservativism which I define as follows. Center on scripture as the only authoritative source of knowledge for ethics, living and the inerrant word of God. He would outright reject the view of universalism, inclusivism and relativism.

[Rochir]

Jesus would support the contemporary view of conservativism which I define as follows. Center on scripture as the only authoritative source of knowledge for ethics, living and the inerrant word of God. He would outright reject the view of universalism, inclusivism and relativism.

How about Catholic tradition? After all, Catholics claim that Jesus set it to them to uphold His teachings!

They are as conservative as you are - do they not count? ;)

[MrJim]

Jesus would support the contemporary view of conservativism which I define as follows. Center on scripture as the only authoritative source of knowledge for ethics, living and the inerrant word of God. He would outright reject the view of universalism, inclusivism and relativism.

I expect everyone would be surprised as to how Jesus would examine each of us in our lives, just like those seven churches in Revelation, just like everyone He met and spoke with~He always responded with an unexpected answer...who will cast the first stone?

[twistedsketch]

1)Anti-death penalty - Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
That's not anti-death penalty, that's anti-pride and anti-revenge.

2)Pro-welfare system - Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
He didn't say anything about the state being involved, did He? You can't really use that as a command for a welfare state.

3)Pro-gun - Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Neither pro-gun or anti-gun as far as the law is concerned.

4)Pro-Abortion? - Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
No, that is simply saying that the last days will be very hard on people. No commands or suggestions that the mothers should abort.

5)Pro-Political amnesty - Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That's not political amnesty, that is referring to those who are tortured, mistreated, and killed for the faith. These people will have rewards in Heaven.

Ultimately, a conservative will find Jesus being conservative on issues, and a liberal will do the same about Jesus being liberal on issues. Both can find scripture to do it.
I think you're right. I've seen arguments for Jesus being a Republican, a Democrat, a Libertarian, and Anarchist, a Socialist, and a Theocrat. Some of these arguments have been made by people belonging to these beliefs systems who don't even believe in Jesus Himself!

[Albion]

How about Catholic tradition? After all, Catholics claim that Jesus set it to them to uphold His teachings!

They are as conservative as you are - do they not count? ;)

Your point is valid. The meaning of "Conservative Christian" as used on the "Conservative Christians" forums includes those who are Tradition-oriented.

IMO, a main problem with this thread is that it never has decided what it means by "Conservative Christian" when asking about Jesus.

Are we to wonder if he'd belong to a church he founded and be strongly in favor of its core values, i.e. conservative? Or are we supposed to think that the question is asking if he'd be a Christian at all, but asked of conservatives who identify as Christian, etc.

Are we to take into account political and social implications of the faith or not? They are part of the forum's definition of a Conservative Christian, although we have many members who confidently post their thinking that the definition of a Conservative Christian excludes this.

But at the least, we cannot dismiss all who hold the same values but merely come to them from a different method (i.e. Tradition).

[NewGuy101]

How about Catholic tradition? After all, Catholics claim that Jesus set it to them to uphold His teachings!

They are as conservative as you are - do they not count? ;)
So would you be happy if I said Jesus would be a fundie-conservative?

[BAFRIEND]

All you have to do is enter in the search term "divorce" in an online Bible and read what Jesus has to say about that topic to know that he is conservative and so are his followers.

Do all the tap-dancing you want to.

[BAFRIEND]

IMO, a main problem with this thread is that it never has decided what it means by "Conservative Christian" when asking about Jesus.

Go to the wiki. Conservative Christian paradigm for the purposes of this forum are in-depth defined there:

Statement of Faith:

Conservative Christianity is defined by its allegiance to the Holy Scriptures and the traditional beliefs and teachings of the Christian Church on issues of theology and morality. Central to this worldview is the belief that Truth exists objectively and independently of our perception. Truth is unchanging and absolute.

The Holy Scriptures are inspired, the written Word of God. Scripture is revelation from God given for the instruction of his people in faith, morals, and doctrine. The revelation of scripture is completely reliable and authoritative.


The minimum standard of doctrinal belief in order for a person to be considered a Christian is accurately contained within the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds. The doctrines contained within these creeds are the bare essentials upon which Christians must agree.


Our Christian faith can not be separated from our views on politics and society, or any other area of life. The Conservative Christian worldview holds the following values and views to be necessary expressions of Christian morality based upon Holy Scripture and the established teachings of the Christian Church.


The sanctity of human life.Human life begins at conception and ends when the body can no longer naturally sustain itself. Human life can not be ended prematurely without just cause and just authority to do so. This includes most cases of abortion and euthanasia.


Sexual morality is a fundamental requirement of Christian moral teaching. The Scriptures repeatedly address the topic of traditional sexual morality as a necessary part of our obedience to God and right living. Sexually moral behavior, in Scripture, and in the established teachings of the Church is held to be limited to sex between a husband and his wife. All other sexual activities fall under the heading of sexual immorality and depart from conservative christian teaching and morality.


Sin separates people from God. Thus it is destructive and harmful. Jesus Christ came not only to grant us a way of forgiveness from sin, but also to free us from bondage to sin. Our Lord Jesus Christ has imparted to us the ministry of reconciliation. It is our duty and privilege to teach people the gospel of forgiveness of sins, freedom from sin, and reconciliation to God. Freedom begins with knowing the truth.


Truth and Love are both God's character. All truth can be expressed in love. When addressing others in the forum we should hold ourselves accountable to the belief that all people are created in God's image, and as such deserve a basic level of respect, regardless of their deeds. This is not meant to muzzle honest discourse or comment, but to remind that all truth, must be expressed in love. Therefore, Conservative Christians may not flame visitors but rather seek to reason with them with an attitude of service and love.


Sola Scriptura – Not all conservatives hold to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. As per the forum rules we all acknowledge the inspiration, complete reliability, and authority of scripture. However, some conservative Christians may hold Holy Tradition and the Church to be authoritative, or necessary to proper interpretation of scripture, in addition to the scriptures. Others do affirm Sola Scriptura, and are also welcomed equally on this forum. Neither position is preferred. No rule will be made concerning the views of Sola Scriptura, or the Traditions of the Church. Which position is correct is to be determined by the individual, not the forum.


Biblical Literalism – Not all conservatives hold an absolute literal interpretation of scripture. This may especially be seen in the areas of eschatology and the Genesis creation account.

[Albion]

Go to the wiki. Conservative Christian paradigm for the purposes of this forum are in-depth defined there:

That would be my answer also. HOWEVER, if you read through all the posts that have addressed the question of the thread, you will find that many are working from their own idea of what makes for a "Conservative Christian" when answering the question. To that extent, there is no agreement on the meaning and, for that reason, no coherence in the answers.

[NewGuy101]

I expect everyone would be surprised as to how Jesus would examine each of us in our lives, just like those seven churches in Revelation, just like everyone He met and spoke with~He always responded with an unexpected answer...who will cast the first stone?
this is irrelevant...but if you would like to create a new thread please do it and you and I can discuss it there.

[NewGuy101]

How about Catholic tradition? After all, Catholics claim that Jesus set it to them to uphold His teachings!

They are as conservative as you are - do they not count? ;)
he would disagree with them

[Albion]

he would disagree with them

However, Rochir's point was made within the context of this "Conservative Christian" forum, and we do consider Catholics to be Conservative Christians here for purposes of membership and participation (As per the forum rules we all acknowledge the inspiration, complete reliability, and authority of scripture. However, some conservative Christians may hold Holy Tradition and the Church to be authoritative, or necessary to proper interpretation of scripture, in addition to the scriptures).

[NewGuy101]

However, Rochir's point was made within the context of this "Conservative Christian" forum, and we do consider Catholics to be Conservative Christians here for purposes of membership and participation (As per the forum rules we all acknowledge the inspiration, complete reliability, and authority of scripture. However, some conservative Christians may hold Holy Tradition and the Church to be authoritative, or necessary to proper interpretation of scripture, in addition to the scriptures).
yah...I think he would agree more with catholics than with liberals...fo sho'