The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat

[mpossoff]

Any thoughts?

What does Yeshua specifically mean?

2The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

We know that Yeshua's teachings aligned with the Pharisee's.

We know He criticizes the Pharisee's NOT about the written Torah but the Oral Torah which the Pharisee's held in equal with the written Torah."You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition!"

WE know Yeshua did not question the rightful authority and preaching of the true word of those who "sit in Moses' seat," telling the people to "practice and observe what they tell you" . At the same time, much of the legal minutia of the oral tradition constituted too difficult and unnecessary a burden, which the Pharisees made no move to alleviate.

NOTE: this is NOT to criticize any party, just going by what scripture says.

Any thoughts?

Marc

[mpossoff]

What does it mean to take Moses' seat?

It means to be reading from the Torah.

In other words when they took the seat of Moses then the things that they read from the Torah keep and do it.

But when thinking about it, to sit on Moses' seat also includes the interpretation of Torah, how to go walk in Torah. I wonder if this sect of Pharisee's interpretations were well making the basic commands so minute and remote that it became a burden.

Makes sense.

Any comments?

Marc

[Henaynei]

The Seat of Moses was the authoritative position held by an unbroken chain of learned righteous men from Moses to Yeshua's day, and even a bot further than that...

Essentially it is the Sanhedrin - the body of spiritual leaders empowered by HaShem to explain and clarify the law and to make halakic rulings....

Yeshua commanded his Jewish disciples to continue to respect and obey those rulings....

[GerTzedek]

Marc,

I think I asked you once before if you were familiar with the dispute between the two schools of pharisees, bet Hillel and bet Shammai? I don't recall your answer or if you answered.

[GerTzedek]

I basically agree with what has been said. Yeshua is basically referring to the teaching authority of the Pharisees. "Do everything they tell you" basically refutes the notion of "Bible only," as they would have presented halakhic rulings.

The essence of the passage is basically, "Don't get get sidetracked by their hypocrisy. They still have teaching authority, so obey them."

[mpossoff]

Marc,

I think I asked you once before if you were familiar with the dispute between the two schools of pharisees, bet Hillel and bet Shammai? I don't recall your answer or if you answered.

Yes Ger I'm familiar with both schools.

With that being said is Yeshua saying:

The things that they read from the Torah keep and do it. But not according to how the school of Shammai's teaches because they have made the basic halacha remote and minute that it became a burden.

I don't think so, maybe. Context is key.

This is like saying that if we were present in the 1st century that we were to listen to the sect that said 'you must be circumcised.... to be saved' and we all know that this isn't true. And it's apparent that is was the main battle between The Way and who this particular sect was, as this particular sect had influence in halacha or it wouldn't have been such an issue.

We have to put this back into the context of the 1st century and see how it can be applied today.

After all there is no Sanhedrin.

So I'm not taking sides so to speak. I'm just trying to be pratical.

Marc

[GerTzedek]

Yes. Basically, Yeshua's teachings were bet Hillel (with the one exception of divorce and remarriage). Most of his arguments with the pharisees can be read in the context of the contention between the schools, as someone of bet Hillel making comments regarding bet Shammai. YET, when turning to the people, its STILL, "They sit on the seat of Moses. Do everything they tell you."

[mpossoff]

Hi Ger this supports your post. This is from a commentary about:

Matthew 16:19
"I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven".


The important reference here is to the Kingdom which is the main message of Scripture. This is another verse that has been misused through history, (mostly by Catholicism) though not due to the reasons cited by its critics (Protestantism).
As the text shows, the concept of "keys" is directly tied to "binding and loosing." The issue at hand (as with all of the text of the "New Testament") must be understood within the context of Judaism.
Yeshua is passing along a degree of authority to his immediate disciples regarding matters of halakha, which is best translated as "the way we walk out our faith." (Hence Catholicism has the basic concept correct, but neglects Torah as the final authority.) Scripture does not give us all the minute details of how we are to carry out all of God's commandments. Decisions have to be made as to how Torah is applied both by individuals and communities, as circumstances do change in people's lives and through the course of history.
Torah is eternal and resolutions must be made in accordance with it. The idea of a "governing authority" that makes rulings for the body of believers is biblical. We can see this with the 70 elders of Moses' time and the Jerusalem council of Acts 15.
By giving this authority to His disciples, Yeshua is allowing for "traditions" to be established. He had no problem with traditions based in Torah.

Marc

[GerTzedek]

Thank you, marc. That was an insightful passage. Vis is right about one thing: the church suffered when it lost its ties to the Jewish community in Jerusalem. She and I only disagree as to the reasons why. She blames the church. I see the hostility of the church as a byproduct of the divorce. But either/or.... I look at Catholicism and it's soooo close. And yet in some ways it just doesn't quite hit the mark. But... sometimes that's all it takes.

This should not be read as a disparagement of the Catholic church. All the other later churches inherited the same problem.

It really all boils down to... the destruction of the second temple... I just can't understand why G-d didn't protect Israel.

[ChazakEmunah]

It really all boils down to... the destruction of the second temple... I just can't understand why G-d didn't protect Israel.
Two words. Sinat chinam.

[TheRabbi]

I just can't understand why G-d didn't protect Israel.

Why would God protect Israel from his own wrath? Hashem destroyed the Temple. Hashem expelled the Jews from his land.

Look at the destruction of the first Temple in Ezekiel. In the physical realm, the babylonian army was destroying the City, but Ezekiel saw Angels with Hammers smashing the city walls. He saw what was really going on.

[TheRabbi]

Regarding Moses seat, I understand that it was an overstuffed buffalo hide recliner and everybody was fighting over it. The The Sadducees tried to claim it as their own, but the Pharisees ultimately got it by winning the people over when they had the neck and foot massager installed. It's a whole long discussion in tractate Sanhedrin and I don't wan't to go into the whole thing.

[Henaynei]

I found this interesting .... http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=51The Talmud tells us that the first Temple was destroyed because of idolatry, incest and the spilling of blood within it. The second Temple was destroyed because of senseless hatred - sinat chinam (Yoma 9a).

Sinat chinam is an interesting concept. It encompasses things like envy, greed and self-glorification. It encompasses treating others with contempt. It implies a lack of reason in a religion that almost always demands and insists upon reason. I say almost because there is one notable exception.

According to Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, Israel’s first chief Rabbi, the second Temple, destroyed by sinat chinam, senseless hatred, will only be rebuilt by ahavat chinam, love without reason. [snip] I’ll just let you meditate on that. I know I will.

[visionary]

Is Moses's seat the same as David's?

[TheRabbi]

I guess you guys don't know the story of the specific event that triggered the destruction of the Temple? Some of the Jews here should surely know the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.

[Talmidah]

I guess you guys don't know the story of the specific event that triggered the destruction of the Temple? Some of the Jews here should surely know the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.
Of course.

[GerTzedek]

Yes, along the way, we learned about Kamtza and Bar Kamtza. I think I remember it being read aloud. I think it was connected with Tisha B'Av. There were other stories read at the same time, like about Rabbi Akiva. Let me jerk my memory around and surf the web.

[GerTzedek]

Thank you all for reminding me of this. It was well worth looking it up and thinking about it.

The heart of the story of Kamtza and BarKamtza lies in the fact that the rabbis saw his public humiliation and did not intervene. But later, when presented with a blemished ram for sacrifice, they preferred to incur the wrath of Ceasar than to sacrifice it. Not that being careful regarding sacrifice isn't important, but there is a heirarchy which was being violated -- this was placed above the public humiliation of a human being.

That is wh Rabbi Yochanan said, "The excessive carefulness of Rabbi Zechariah son of Avkulos destroyed our Temple, burned our Palace, and exiled us from our Land."

It DOES remind me very much of Yeshua's objection in Matthew 23. He tells the Pharisees he is speaking to that they have their values scewed. They are carefuly about the mint/dill/cumin tithe but have forgotten the more central things such as justice, mercy and faithfulness. His exhortation was that they get the justice, mercy and faithfulness down, and to observe the spice tax as well.

It does tend to sound to me like this didn't happen in a vaccuum. At least one person (possibly more) sounded the warning bell. Basically, if they had listened, the second Temple would still be here.

A point I made before was this -- the hideous doctrine of supersessionism, which fosters anti-Semitism and all its horrors, can be traced the the church being cut off from it core of Jewish believers at the Temple in Jerusalem. Why? Because that Temple was destroyed.

It just seems like the punishment is too harsh. I have great difficulties accepting that this was G-d's doing. It also seems like it places all the guilt on the Jews, instead of on the people who have abused them--a big mistake.

[mpossoff]

Thank you all for reminding me of this. It was well worth looking it up and thinking about it.

The heart of the story of Kamtza and BarKamtza lies in the fact that the rabbis saw his public humiliation and did not intervene. But later, when presented with a blemished ram for sacrifice, they preferred to incur the wrath of Ceasar than to sacrifice it. Not that being careful regarding sacrifice isn't important, but there is a heirarchy which was being violated -- this was placed above the public humiliation of a human being.

That is wh Rabbi Yochanan said, "The excessive carefulness of Rabbi Zechariah son of Avkulos destroyed our Temple, burned our Palace, and exiled us from our Land."

It DOES remind me very much of Yeshua's objection in Matthew 23. He tells the Pharisees he is speaking to that they have their values scewed. They are carefuly about the mint/dill/cumin tithe but have forgotten the more central things such as justice, mercy and faithfulness. His exhortation was that they get the justice, mercy and faithfulness down, and to observe the spice tax as well.

It does tend to sound to me like this didn't happen in a vaccuum. At least one person (possibly more) sounded the warning bell. Basically, if they had listened, the second Temple would still be here.

A point I made before was this -- the hideous doctrine of supersessionism, which fosters anti-Semitism and all its horrors, can be traced the the church being cut off from it core of Jewish believers at the Temple in Jerusalem. Why? Because that Temple was destroyed.

It just seems like the punishment is too harsh. I have great difficulties accepting that this was G-d's doing. It also seems like it places all the guilt on the Jews, instead of on the people who have abused them--a big mistake.

Ger I have trouble with understanding this too.

This is what I posted on another board.

Deuteronomy records Moses prophesies. He foresaw a time when the people of Israel would be exiled, scattered among the natoins, driven from place to place, scorned, mocked, rejected, and persecuted. At every turn history has proven Moses words. For nearly 2,000 years the Jewish people have lived in exile, wandering, bitterly oppressed, hated and reviled.

Deuteronomy 30:3-5 says that Moses foresaw restoration when exile would end. In the last half of the century, the Jewish people began to reurn to their ancient homeland. In the middle of the 20th century Israel was decalred a nation.

The prophecy is fulfilling. He is restoring the Jewish people.

But there is more to the return to the land. Moses predicted a return to Torah. Deuteronomy 30:8.

Israel is returning to the land. Jewish immigrants arrive in Israel by the 1,000’s every year. The return to Torah has begun as well. Jewish people everywhere are rediscovering the Torah(like myself). They are returning back to the ancient paths, like myself. Modern Judaism calls it the Teshuvah movement.

Secular Jews like myself are returning to Torah and are becoming zealous than ever for the Torah because of our Jewish Messiah. Deut 18:15 commands us to heed the Messiah. A return to Torah requires a return to Messiah.

So YES being physical Israel does mean something. As the prophecies are fulfilling. Curses and blessings. The Holocaust as an example as well as the land and restoration.

Yes the oracles of God and Torah were given to the physical decendents. And as I said not to keep it for themselves.

I mean how could God be so harsh? The Holocaust as an example. I believe in what Moses foresaw and that there are blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience. As Israel was given the oracles of God and therefore....

Marc

[TheRabbi]

Read the prophets concerning the destruction of the 1st temple. You'll see that the blame lies squarely on the Jews. Yes the Babylonians actually did the physical work, but none of it could have happened had the jews repented.

No one oppressed the Jews into worshipping idols. No one oppressed the jews into hating one another.

Josephus tells us that when the Romans broke through to the Jewish defenders of Jerusalem, they were shocked to see the Jews slaughtering one another!

[mpossoff]

Read the prophets concerning the destruction of the 1st temple. You'll see that the blame lies squarely on the Jews. Yes the Babylonians actually did the physical work, but none of it could have happened had the jews repented.

No one oppressed the Jews into worshipping idols. No one oppressed the jews into hating one another.

Josephus tells us that when the Romans broke through to the Jewish defenders of Jerusalem, they were shocked to see the Jews slaughtering one another!

I agree. Nothing happens without God doing . Blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience.

We can't sugar coat this. I believe the Holocaust has everything to do with the blessings and cursings.

Marc

[visionary]

Including the end result of the holocaust, which is the new nation, Israel. God chastens those He loves.

[GerTzedek]

Yeah, well, then it's very obvious whom he loves greatly. Personally, I could never face a survivor of Auschwitz and tell them this idea.

[visionary]

Cora Ten Boon would understand it.

[GerTzedek]

You think Corrie tenBoom would have looked a Jew in the face at Ravensbruck and said, "You Jews brought this on yourself"???? I don't think so.

[visionary]

You think Corrie tenBoom would have looked a Jew in the face at Ravensbruck and said, "You Jews brought this on yourself"???? I don't think so.You are looking at my statement from the wrong angle. Corrie Ten Boon was praying for the blessings not the curses. In 1844, Opa ten Boom had started a prayer group for the ‘peace of Jerusalem’ and the family kept praying for a hundred years. The Nazis interrupted this faithful family’s ministry during World War II. Hitler’s henchmen for Judenhilfe, helping Jewish people escape Nazi persecution and death, arrested them. By that time, the ten Booms saved the lives of some eight hundred Jewish people by hiding them in their clock shop.

http://www.c4israel.org/articles/Summer2006/html/The%20fuel%20that%20moves.html