Feminist vs. Femininity

[Miradwash]

I'm a Fundy and proud of it!! I'm also new here to this site entirely, trying to find my way around and kinda where i fit in, although I don't mind having a challenging debate in some of the other forums either.
I'm looking for comments and thoughts on my article regarding my stance on feminininty and our society. I personally believe that as women we are losing our sense of what makes us feminine and what the good Lord placed in us that's inately feminine. And our society in general is in an all and out war against feminininty, womanhood and motherhood, instead I feel society pushes women to be brazen and out of control, definitely not the quiet spirit that God calls his good daughters.
Anyway, let me know what you think about my article and hopefully we can have a great conversation regarding some of the points I bring up.
http://www.eewmagazine.com/African_American_Issues.html

Lots of Love,
Miriam

[Time2BCounted]

I'm a Fundy and proud of it!! I'm also new here to this site entirely, trying to find my way around and kinda where i fit in, although I don't mind having a challenging debate in some of the other forums either.
I'm looking for comments and thoughts on my article regarding my stance on feminininty and our society. I personally believe that as women we are losing our sense of what makes us feminine and what the good Lord placed in us that's inately feminine. And our society in general is in an all and out war against feminininty, womanhood and motherhood, instead I feel society pushes women to be brazen and out of control, definitely not the quiet spirit that God calls his good daughters.
Anyway, let me know what you think about my article and hopefully we can have a great conversation regarding some of the points I bring up.
http://www.eewmagazine.com/African_American_Issues.html

Lots of Love,
Miriam
Speaking as a man, and a christian man at that, imo, there is nothing as beautiful and touching as a feminine Godly woman.

I would take one feminine woman over 1000 feminist, though i agree with certain thoughts within feminism.

Now dont get this wrong, i also think women with a lot of spirit and personality are very attractive, and thats not qualities i would take away from any saved woman. I think real women stand strong in God and yet are the most sensual... maybe its the contrast i dunno.

[Miradwash]

Thank you Brother for your comments!

[IamRedeemed]

Amen. My husband would agree with you! I am very feminine.
(look in my closet in my profile hehe)
and I am also a strong woman of the Lord.

I raised three children. Breast fed and used cloth diapers. (they are all grown now)
I have worked hard over the years to make our house a home and
a place of sanctuary. I contribute financially and I also stretch my
husband's dollars, striving to be a good steward and make things
for my family to enjoy with my hands and I undergird them with
prayer and praise and I honor my husband and I give him the
confidence and support he needs to face the world every day.
And pray the Lord's favor on the work of his hands.

I am a combination that the Lord fashioned me
into of a soft compassionate woman (tough times in life has
definitely been a factor there that He used for His glory)
and a strong soldier for Christ.

The Captain of the Hosts, made me a warrior in the army of
Christ and helped me to overcome "the fear of man", and I
learned to distinguish between flatteries and intentions
and speak forth His words unashamedly, and without cowardice
or fear of intimidation.

Hallelujah! :clap:

On the other hand, I agree that not only has society tried to rob
women of the wonderful call of duty that God has graced us with
they are also robbing men of their masculinity.
As much as a physically strong man might be attractive, I also find
a strong man in the Lord to be the most attractive of all men in the world!

Blessed is the woman who marries a man who loves the Lord!

Speaking as a man, and a christian man at that, imo, there is nothing as beautiful and touching as a feminine Godly woman.

I would take one feminine woman over 1000 feminist, though i agree with certain thoughts within feminism.

Now dont get this wrong, i also think women with a lot of spirit and personality are very attractive, and thats not qualities i would take away from any saved woman. I think real women stand strong in God and yet are the most sensual... maybe its the contrast i dunno.

[Time2BCounted]

Ar yes and a prize ye then be to thy mate :D

[Miradwash]

now now we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Love is patient and kind.
I agree with you too IAmRedeemed, you speak the truth about femininity. Being connected with God and redeemed by Jesus is the main qualities of Good Husband and Good Wife. Looks and money and houses and that other stuff really don't matter. Jesus told us to seek first the kingdom of heaven and all things will be added.

[sageoffools]

Great article Mira!

Unfortunately, femininity is seen as subservience to man. It's the idea that if a woman is being feminine it is because she is trying to please man. Sadly, the line between male and female is being blurred, we have a mindset that different equals less valuable or less important. There are enough men on the planet, we do not need all of the women to become men too.
Women, especially Christian women, should embrace the femininity that God has blessed them with. Likewise men should embrace the masculinity that God has blessed us with.

[Time2BCounted]

Great article Mira!

Unfortunately, femininity is seen as subservience to man. It's the idea that if a woman is being feminine it is because she is trying to please man. Sadly, the line between male and female is being blurred, we have a mindset that different equals less valuable or less important. There are enough men on the planet, we do not need all of the women to become men too.
Women, especially Christian women, should embrace the femininity that God has blessed them with. Likewise men should embrace the masculinity that God has blessed us with.
Amen and amen WolverineSage, that was very well said and i agree

[Vambram]

I Like this thread, and this discussion of Biblical feminism. I agree with what y'all are saying, so instead of adding a deep exposition of thoughts from my brain, I decided to post the following passage of scripture from Proverbs 31:10-31



10 Who can find a virtuous wife?
For her worth is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her;
So he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil
All the days of her life.
13 She seeks wool and flax,
And willingly works with her hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
She brings her food from afar.
15 She also rises while it is yet night,
And provides food for her household,
And a portion for her maidservants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
From her profits she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength,
And strengthens her arms.
18 She perceives that her merchandise is good,
And her lamp does not go out by night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hand holds the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor,
Yes, she reaches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of snow for her household,
For all her household is clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes tapestry for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies sashes for the merchants.
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;
She shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,
And on her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She watches over the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and call her blessed;
Her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “ Many daughters have done well,
But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing,
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands,
And let her own works praise her in the gates.

:wave: :amen:

I thank God for my godly mother, without her, I know that surely I would not have become close to being the kind of godly man whom my Savior wants me to be.

[Miradwash]

Thanks guys for your awesome comments, this is an issue that will continue to worsen if we as parents don't wake up. Our children need us, our society needs us. Our Lord wants us to be soaked in Him, and right now things are a bit watered down and quite unGodly.

[IamRedeemed]

That is sad reality and unfortunately it is true!:(


Thanks guys for your awesome comments, this is an issue that will continue to worsen if we as parents don't wake up. Our children need us, our society needs us. Our Lord wants us to be soaked in Him, and right now things are a bit watered down and quite unGodly.

[Irespectfullydisagree]

I dont see why it has to be feminist v femininity, you can have both. Just because you believe that women should be equal to men does not mean that you cannot activly partake in your family or society in a motherly and caring way. As i often find the answer to a problem is not on either end of the spectrum but somewhere in the middle.

[woman.at.the.well]

Excellent thread and posts in this thread! :thumbsup: I couldn't agree more.

[cCensor]

As a man I agree and take blame for women gone wild. I look back into the garden and fine Eve not caring what Adam thought or what God said. But it was Adams fault for the fall of man kind. Adam failed to say NO and this is the main cause of women failing to be soft and loving as God made them. Adam was put in charge and he was not stupid or a child. He turned from God and gave the rule of the garden to Eve. MEN are still not able to say NO to a women they love, which hurts them both.


Censor

[rainbowpromises]

I have never considered myself as feminist nor have I considered myself as feminine. God did not form me in that way.

In order to be a true helpmate to my husband I must be able to work alongside him on our farm. Good thing I come from German stock!

[Noitulover]

A portion of the blame for a breakdown in gender identities is the willingness of believers to compromise. We are more concerned with being politically correct than to preserve fundamental principles of God. The following verse is an example...

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
1 Peter 3:7

Society has made it insanely incorrect to state or imply that a woman is weaker. Yet god's word not only identifies this God given trait, but qualifies it. God means that a man is not better than a woman rather, she is different in nature.

Yet Christians seem to embrace society's wisdom instead of God's. Even more, I am willing to express as a man, that men do not take responsibility for being a strong vessel. Instead society's wisdom dictates that men can take advantage of the weaker sex. We exploit their sexuality. We dominate their ego. We become their ego. Our will is their will.

My contention is we allow compromise. We let the world influence our demeanor. Instead, men should be Godly and expect other men to be Godly. Men should not accept other men to view women as sexual exploits or goals. We men should work together to insure that our daughters remain pure for their future husbands. It should be the man that says "NO" to prenuptial sex.

The representation or shadow of the Church is a virtuous pure and virgin bride for the groom. It is our responsibility that we shadow the Church. The man is the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the Church. Men should take responsibility in society to see to it that our daughters remain pure.

Likewise it is the woman's responsibility to submit to the husband as the Church submits to Christ. This is not a macho thing. This is not about dominance. This is not about the man being better than the woman. Often the woman is better than the man. Rather, this is about respecting and shadowing the image of Christ. Its about shadowing the image of the Church. And the woman decides how to do this. Just as we, The Church, respect the way we honor Christ.

[desmalia]

As a man I agree and take blame for women gone wild. I look back into the garden and fine Eve not caring what Adam thought or what God said. But it was Adams fault for the fall of man kind. Adam failed to say NO and this is the main cause of women failing to be soft and loving as God made them. Adam was put in charge and he was not stupid or a child. He turned from God and gave the rule of the garden to Eve. MEN are still not able to say NO to a women they love, which hurts them both.


Censor

You've got some good points here, though I would not go so far as to blame only Adam for the fall. Eve knew she was not to eat from the tree. In fact she may have even added in a little legalism (ie. "not even touch it"). Maybe that was a communication issue between her and Adam, or maybe she added that for her own reasons. We don't know. But we do know that she was aware she was not to eat from that tree. Satan knew that if he went after Eve's weakness, he could use her against Adam. He was easily influinced by her, even to do something he knew was wrong. That is still true of man today. Woman is man's weakness. It's interesting to consider this verse:
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

"she gave to her husband with her". This strongly suggests that Adam was right there watching what happened, and failed to take on the leadership role and do the right thing. He didn't stand up and take charge of the situation. And ever since, we've seen women usurping men's roles, and men sitting by silently and allowing it. Bottom line, we each need to take the responsibility to live the roles God designed us for.

A portion of the blame for a breakdown in gender identities is the willingness of believers to compromise. We are more concerned with being politically correct than to preserve fundamental principles of God. The following verse is an example...

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
1 Peter 3:7

Society has made it insanely incorrect to state or imply that a woman is weaker. Yet god's word not only identifies this God given trait, but qualifies it. God means that a man is not better than a woman rather, she is different in nature.

Yet Christians seem to embrace society's wisdom instead of God's. Even more, I am willing to express as a man, that men do not take responsibility for being a strong vessel. Instead society's wisdom dictates that men can take advantage of the weaker sex. We exploit their sexuality. We dominate their ego. We become their ego. Our will is their will.

My contention is we allow compromise. We let the world influence our demeanor. Instead, men should be Godly and expect other men to be Godly. Men should not accept other men to view women as sexual exploits or goals. We men should work together to insure that our daughters remain pure for their future husbands. It should be the man that says "NO" to prenuptial sex.

The representation or shadow of the Church is a virtuous pure and virgin bride for the groom. It is our responsibility that we shadow the Church. The man is the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the Church. Men should take responsibility in society to see to it that our daughters remain pure.

Likewise it is the woman's responsibility to submit to the husband as the Church submits to Christ. This is not a macho thing. This is not about dominance. This is not about the man being better than the woman. Often the woman is better than the man. Rather, this is about respecting and shadowing the image of Christ. Its about shadowing the image of the Church. And the woman decides how to do this. Just as we, The Church, respect the way we honor Christ.
:thumbsup: Wise words.

[LovebirdsFlying]

The point has been made that if all women "kept silence in the churches," nothing would be getting done, since the men aren't doing it. I don't know if that's true or not. The statement didn't originate with me, but it has been my personal observation that many churches consist of far more women than men. For many women, waiting for the man to take the lead would mean standing still for an awfully long time.

All this said, I don't understand why feminism and femininity have to be mutually exclusive. It is a myth to assume all feminists are big, hairy, loud, man-hating lesbians, just as it is in error to assume that all feminine women are helpless appendages of their men.

I gladly submit to Mike. After asking me for my input, he makes the final decisions. Nothing makes me happier than ironing his work clothes or placing supper in front of him. I'll even wash his feet on occasion.

But:

If someone were to tell me I *had* to live this way, that I have no other option because I am a woman, I would be the first to throw rotten eggs at that person.
If Mike were to *demand* this sort of treatment, especially without offering respect in return, I'd be as gone as a goose in winter. The fact that he does not treat me as inferior makes me glad to do menial tasks for him, knowing that there are times when he does the same for me.A minister counseled me, after ending an abusive marriage, that "submit" doesn't mean "lie down and let him kick you." More recently, a minister's wife offered, "Submit means to stand back so God can get a better shot." :D

In summary, I believe myself to be both feminine and egalitarian, and I don't see how one negates the other.

[desmalia]

The point has been made that if all women "kept silence in the churches," nothing would be getting done, since the men aren't doing it. I don't know if that's true or not. The statement didn't originate with me, but it has been my personal observation that many churches consist of far more women than men. For many women, waiting for the man to take the lead would mean standing still for an awfully long time.It's interesting that you point that out. We were just discussing this issue at my Bible study last night. One man wisely pointed out "two wrongs don't make a right". We now live in a society where men don't have to feel the need to step up. Because if they don't, the women will. Men are being raised to fear and lothe headship roles and women are being raised to believe we must fight for the right to hold them. It's messed up.

Another important thing to remember is that we're talking (in this case) about the church body, where believers are (or at least should be) growing and maturing in the faith as we serve and obey our Lord. Leaders should be arising from this. God provides when we obey. We should not be relying on limited, flawed human logic, but instead resting in Him. Sometimes that means women need to be patient and wait (and pray!) for the men to step up.

All this said, I don't understand why feminism and femininity have to be mutually exclusive. It is a myth to assume all feminists are big, hairy, loud, man-hating lesbians, just as it is in error to assume that all feminine women are helpless appendages of their men.Of course not. But perhaps feminism should be defined more here. I see it as something that causes women to be independant minded, focused on individuality an self preservation to a degree that any sort of submission is considered to be weak and rediculous. It still carries that battle cry "I can do anything you can! And probably better!". This sort of attitude is not new. It's always been around. But we currently live in a society that embraces and emulates it to a point where the family and church structure are crumbling. That is a serious problem. Submission is not a bad thing! But feminism promotes it as such. As members of the Body we are not called to focus on our own rights, but to serve selflessly in the roles God has designed us for and has designed for us. Doing so actually celebrates our individual uniqueness instead of forcing us into unnatural roles.

I gladly submit to Mike. After asking me for my input, he makes the final decisions. Nothing makes me happier than ironing his work clothes or placing supper in front of him. I'll even wash his feet on occasion.

But:

If someone were to tell me I *had* to live this way, that I have no other option because I am a woman, I would be the first to throw rotten eggs at that person.
LOL, then you better huck some eggs in God's direction. Wives submit to your husbands is a very clear Scriptural command.

What's cool though, is that you are getting to see the benifit of obedience to this command, even if that is not why you're doing it.



If Mike were to *demand* this sort of treatment, especially without offering respect in return, I'd be as gone as a goose in winter. The fact that he does not treat me as inferior makes me glad to do menial tasks for him, knowing that there are times when he does the same for me.It has been common over the years for people to take the submission command out of the context that a man is to love his wive as Christ loves the church. Men have a heavy responsibility there too. However, the "two wrongs don't make a right" comment comes into play here as well. Wives aren't commanded to submit only when he's fulfilling his duty though. Likewise, men are not called to be the head of the home only when the wife is filling her duty. We are each responsible to obey God individually, even when our spouse is not living up to his or her end. We can always have confidence in obedience to Christ and His commands. He will sustain us. And you know, when one spouse lives obediently instead of living in reactionary sin, it sets an incredibly powerful example that changes lives.

A minister counseled me, after ending an abusive marriage, that "submit" doesn't mean "lie down and let him kick you." More recently, a minister's wife offered, "Submit means to stand back so God can get a better shot." :D
Yep. Submission never means agreeing to sin. Allowing abuse to continue is condoning the spouse's sin, which is harmful to the victim and disobedient to God. But abuse is not the norm when we're talking about a marriage of believers. So while yes, the issue is important and must be addressed, it is not the base for defining a husband's and a wife's role.

In summary, I believe myself to be both feminine and egalitarian, and I don't see how one negates the other.
Maybe not always, but I think too often it can. Women are taking on these leadership roles and trying to "have it all". They so often end up spreading themselves so thin that they don't get quality time with their families, they become worn out and sick, and everything they have worked so hard for becomes a kind of self imposed prison. And the men are miserable too because they are not fulfilling their duties. They become lazy and even spineless sometimes, lacking discipline and feeling emasculated. Marriages are failing because of these things. I don't think this is liberation. I personally find infinitely more liberation in taking on the submissive role and allowing/encouraging men to be men.

[LovebirdsFlying]

Hmmm.

The only thing you said there, that I take exception to is,

LOL, then you better huck some eggs in God's direction. Wives submit to your husbands is a very clear Scriptural command.

Not because I don't believe in submission, but because I don't think it's defined as servitude. :)

Now, I will admit that my viewpoint is warped because of past abuse, and bad manly examples set by father, step-father(s), and ex-husband(s).

Further discussion on my part will have to wait--I'll be gone for the day. Looking forward to exploring the topic.

[desmalia]

Hmmm.

The only thing you said there, that I take exception to is,



Not because I don't believe in submission, but because I don't think it's defined as servitude. :)

Now, I will admit that my viewpoint is warped because of past abuse, and bad manly examples set by father, step-father(s), and ex-husband(s).

Further discussion on my part will have to wait--I'll be gone for the day. Looking forward to exploring the topic.
Well true enough it certainly doesn't always equate to servitude. But what's at the core of this whole thing is the heart attitude. The willingness to be a servant and to give selflessly, even at great cost to one's self. I mean that is what we are called to as followers of Christ anyway. The core attitude of feminism goes directly against this, and that is why it is such a problem.

I do understand how coming from a troubled past would make this a touchy subject and maybe one that takes longer for some to work through than others.

I came from a home with a believing mother and gnostic father. My mother became a believer when I was very little. She matured into a submissive wife (which did not in the least bit squelch her overflowing creativity and colorful personality). Many would suggest that she did not need to submit to my father's authority because he was an unbeliever. And in any circumstance where he told her to do something sinful, they would be right. But that was not the norm. And in all other circumstances, she submitted to him and supported his headship in the home. It's a powerful testimony, if you ask me. (BTW God honoured her for that, and will also in heaven. Dad became a believer a few years before he died.)

[LovebirdsFlying]

(BTW God honoured her for that, and will also in heaven. Dad became a believer a few years before he died.)
Oh, that IS a powerful testimony! Praise the Lord! :clap:

As I was gone today I meditated on the issue and came up with:

Many people of both sexes confuse the submission of the wife to the husband, with the sumbission of all women to all men. While I certainly am not arguing against wifely submission in marriage, I don't want to go back to the days when women could not vote or own property.

In times past, women never reached legal majority, where they became responsible for themselves and could make their own decisions. If she were 30 or 40 years old and not married, she was still under the parental authority of her father; barring him, the next of adult male kin. The practice of "giving away the bride" came from the concept that a female is under the ownership, if you will, of her father, and he is now selling her to her husband who will have equally the amount of authority that Papa had. He could discipline her in any way he chose, including corporal punishment. I doubt any *reasonable* person preaching submission today actually has this setup in mind.

A woman should be allowed to work at the career of her choice, not just the traditional female roles of teacher, seamstress, waitress, nurse or secretary. She should receive the same pay for doing the same work, be measured by the same criteria, and have the same opportunities for advancement. She should not be subject to sexual harassment, but then again, neither should men. There should be laws in place protecting her from violence in her own home, as should there be for men as well. Equal is equal, and fair is fair.

In this way a woman can remain godly and still choose not to submit to a husband-- simply by remaining unmarried. She is only required to submit to her *husband,* not to everybody with a Y chromosome.

But I've heard even modern-day preachers say that women should not be in managerial positions. "How can she lord it over men all day, and then come home and submit to her husband the way she's supposed to?" :mad: Ugh. And I have seen churches forbid all women not only to preach, but to lead the singing. Some are not even allowed to say grace at the table if a man or a teenage boy is present.

How many people agree that this is not what God intended? :)

[desmalia]

Oh, that IS a powerful testimony! Praise the Lord! :clap:

As I was gone today I meditated on the issue and came up with:

Many people of both sexes confuse the submission of the wife to the husband, with the sumbission of all women to all men. While I certainly am not arguing against wifely submission in marriage, I don't want to go back to the days when women could not vote or own property.Fair enough. Though I don't think we're in much danger of that in the western world! lol

In times past, women never reached legal majority, where they became responsible for themselves and could make their own decisions. If she were 30 or 40 years old and not married, she was still under the parental authority of her father; barring him, the next of adult male kin. True. But it's important to note there were benifits to the women there as well. The men were responsible to look out for them. There was a support system in place. Yes I agree it is good that women have more options now. But we've gained that at the expense of the support system. Men are no longer obligated to help us out. I imagine there are at least a few single mom's out there who would appreciate more help from family and community.

The practice of "giving away the bride" came from the concept that a female is under the ownership, if you will, of her father, and he is now selling her to her husband who will have equally the amount of authority that Papa had. He could discipline her in any way he chose, including corporal punishment. I doubt any *reasonable* person preaching submission today actually has this setup in mind.And I'm sure this is one of the reasons used for the start of women's lib to begin with. The things is, even in a society where that kind of thing is considered acceptable, it is still not Biblical. That means that any man who actually wants to serve and obey Christ would love and respect his wife as co-heir in the Kingdom. You see, it's not just that the Bible doesn't support that kind of "ownership" attitude, it actually frees us from it.

A woman should be allowed to work at the career of her choice, not just the traditional female roles of teacher, seamstress, waitress, nurse or secretary. Like I said, I am glad we have more options these days. I'd make a lousy teacher or nurse or secretary for that matter! lol. But I really believe women are spending way too much time focusing on our "right" to these jobs instead of doing what God called us to do. That's especially true for women who have children to take care of. There are higher callings than a successful career. It's way too much of a focus these days.

She should receive the same pay for doing the same work, be measured by the same criteria, and have the same opportunities for advancement. Depends on the job. For instance, the Fire department (at least in Canada, I assume this is true in the US as well) has established two different sets of standards for new firefighters. One for women, and one for men. I have a problem with this. When someone needs to be rescued from a burning building, the strongest, most capable fighters (which are usually men, let's face it) should be there. Yes some women can pass the tests that are created for the men. And in that case I say it's great. But the standard should not have been dropped in order to be "equal opportunity".

Yes, there are many jobs, especially management positions, that women can do as well as men, and the pay should be the same. Absolutely. But there are jobs men can do better than women, and jobs women can do better than men. Equal value does not mean we're identical. We should be embracing our differences, not covering over them with politically correct philosophies.

She should not be subject to sexual harassment, but then again, neither should men. There should be laws in place protecting her from violence in her own home, as should there be for men as well. Equal is equal, and fair is fair.Totally agree.

In this way a woman can remain godly and still choose not to submit to a husband-- simply by remaining unmarried. She is only required to submit to her *husband,* not to everybody with a Y chromosome.Yes, I get what you're saying, and agree for the most part. However we should remember that the Bible tells us all to submit to our leadership, especially in the church. And we should always honour our father and mother. So there is still submission, though it takes on a different character than in a marriage relationship.

But I've heard even modern-day preachers say that women should not be in managerial positions. "How can she lord it over men all day, and then come home and submit to her husband the way she's supposed to?" :mad: Ugh. And I have seen churches forbid all women not only to preach, but to lead the singing. Some are not even allowed to say grace at the table if a man or a teenage boy is present.

How many people agree that this is not what God intended? :)
Yep, some people go overboard. The Bible doesn't say anything about women in management outside of the church. Government and military are different. And women can and should hold leadership positions in the church - just in the places God has designed for us. But again, you're talking about abuses and twisting of the Scriptures. So I understand why these issues are a concern. I'm sure we've all seen or lived these situations where these ideals are not lived out as Scripture tells us they should be. That doesn't mean we should stop trying to get it right. :)

[LovebirdsFlying]

I think we're arriving at the same destination via different routes. :thumbsup:

[cCensor]

You've got some good points here, though I would not go so far as to blame only Adam for the fall. Eve knew she was not to eat from the tree. In fact she may have even added in a little legalism (ie. "not even touch it"). Maybe that was a communication issue between her and Adam, or maybe she added that for her own reasons. We don't know. But we do know that she was aware she was not to eat from that tree. Satan knew that if he went after Eve's weakness, he could use her against Adam. He was easily influinced by her, even to do something he knew was wrong. That is still true of man today. Woman is man's weakness. It's interesting to consider this verse:
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

"she gave to her husband with her". This strongly suggests that Adam was right there watching what happened, and failed to take on the leadership role and do the right thing. He didn't stand up and take charge of the situation. And ever since, we've seen women usurping men's roles, and men sitting by silently and allowing it. Bottom line, we each need to take the responsibility to live the roles God designed us for.


:thumbsup: Wise words.

I read through all your responses to the post. I can die now. There is a women left in the world that knows God and respect His word.
As for Adam and Fault, I would give him all the responsibility for the fall of man kind.
Why. God had place Adam in charge of the garden and Eve. God did not give Eve the same thinking that Adam had. Adams brain was mainly using the left side of the Brain and Eve the Right. God knew that and so must have devil. As a women she talked herself into sinning and we do not know for sure if Adam was really there at the time. Your not a man, but being a man I can see what happened. Adam found out what Eve did and His heart broke. If he had been stronger he could have gone to God and ask for Eves life, BUT I can see it now as I look down into her eyes that pulled me to her lips and remembering how long I lived in loneliness and told my self I would rather die with her then to live without her.

I can not blame Adam for bowing to Eve, because most men would have done the same thing. Remember God made both and knew what would happen. (I don't blame God.)

Women still have a problem with rights and wrongs. And since women have taken over the schooling for boys we have a generation of males who are not men. Women are still the same, but real men are hard to fine.
As a man it makes me ill to talk to Males, but I love to talk to women. If women only knew that if they tell a man the they RESPECT HIM, He will do every thing to prove it.

With all my respect and love:) Censor

[lullabelle]

Great article Mira!

Sadly, the line between male and female is being blurred, we have a mindset that different equals less valuable or less important. There are enough men on the planet, we do not need all of the women to become men too.
Women, especially Christian women, should embrace the femininity that God has blessed them with. Likewise men should embrace the masculinity that God has blessed us with.

Great post, and I totally agree with you! I love being a feminine woman. I see my femininity as a gift from God. In fact, I just love being a woman, being naturally feminine, being the way God intended me to be. I wouldn't want it any other way!

[lullabelle]

Just wish more men would stand up and be the men God intended them to be. But I believe things are slowly starting to change in this area; men are now waking up and realizing what has happened to them. In many countries men have been feminised. Their thinking is weak, unsure and confused. They don't know how to be men anymore, and many don't think they have permission to be men anymore! (Well they can be men, so long as they are not strong men!) But this is the work of the enemy and Christians need to take the lead in taking back their natural gender roles and living the way God intended them to live, not the way the world dictates or their ego wants it. The role of men has been disrespected and undermined in the West for far too long and we are reaping the results of this in our society - total confusion. Suicide has risen amongst men in the West - many believe this is because of the growing lack of a sense of role, identity or purpose amongst men. Many no longer feel valued. But thank God things are beginning to change in the churches, preachers are preaching about the roles of men and women more. I believe the Holy Spirit is speaking to the Body of Christ about these things, and I believe He is trying to correct the errors in the church concerning gender roles. We truly lack wisdom concerning this subject and we need to ask the Lord for His wisdom and not let pride and ego rule what we believe or do. God created men to be men......real men. And a real man is a strong man.

[lullabelle]

A portion of the blame for a breakdown in gender identities is the willingness of believers to compromise. We are more concerned with being politically correct than to preserve fundamental principles of God. The following verse is an example...

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
1 Peter 3:7

Society has made it insanely incorrect to state or imply that a woman is weaker. Yet god's word not only identifies this God given trait, but qualifies it. God means that a man is not better than a woman rather, she is different in nature.

Yet Christians seem to embrace society's wisdom instead of God's. Even more, I am willing to express as a man, that men do not take responsibility for being a strong vessel.




I agree! :thumbsup:

[lullabelle]

My contention is we allow compromise. We let the world influence our demeanor. Instead, men should be Godly and expect other men to be Godly. Men should not accept other men to view women as sexual exploits or goals. We men should work together to insure that our daughters remain pure for their future husbands. It should be the man that says "NO" to prenuptial sex.

The representation or shadow of the Church is a virtuous pure and virgin bride for the groom. It is our responsibility that we shadow the Church. The man is the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the Church. Men should take responsibility in society to see to it that our daughters remain pure.

Likewise it is the woman's responsibility to submit to the husband as the Church submits to Christ. This is not a macho thing. This is not about dominance. This is not about the man being better than the woman. Often the woman is better than the man. Rather, this is about respecting and shadowing the image of Christ. Its about shadowing the image of the Church. And the woman decides how to do this. Just as we, The Church, respect the way we honor Christ.

Very wise words! :thumbsup: