The Church Did Not Replace Israel - If You Are A Christian You Are A "Grafted In" Jew

[MandM]

The Church Did Not Replace Israel - If You Are A Christian You Are A "Grafted In" Jew


There is a very dangerous current of theology going around Christian circles these days known as "Replacement theology" that says that the Church has replaced Israel.

That is a lie.

In Romans 11, the apostle Paul settles this issue once and for all. In that chapter, he tells us that gentiles who have come to Christ have been "grafted in" to the "olive tree" of Israel.

He also tells us that some branches were broken off. So there are those who were born to "Jewish" homes who think of themselves as "Jewish" who the Bible says are not part of the true Israel.

Here is the relevant part of Romans 11 below. After reading this, hopefully you will understand that if you are a Christian, you are a "grafted in" Jew:

Romans 11:11-24

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The Lord followed the exact same principle in the Torah. Look at the instructions the Lord gives to the people of Israel for dealing with a foreigner who comes in among them and follows the Lord:

Exodus 12:48-49


48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

So I hope this can help you to understand that if you are a Christian, then you have been "grafted in" to Israel.

If you are not a Christian, here is a little guide to help you understand how God feels about Israel, and to help you understant how you can come to know the Messiah of Israel:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi. All Jews and non-Jews are grafted into JESUS CHRIST and His Words of Eternal life. I started a thread hear on what Jesus actually "replaced":

http://foru.ms/t6384394-replacment-theology-and-anti-semitism-question.html#post40483035

A lot of translations use "blindness" in Romans 11:25, but it is a word used such as with "hardening of the heart". I do not wish to debate here on this as I view the Bible all fulfilled In Christ and I would think the Orthodox Jews would also IF they believed Jesus was their Messiah. Shalom.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Romans 11:25 For not I am willing ye to being ignorant/agnoein <50> brothers of the mystery, the-this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise. That a hardening/pwrwsiV <4457>from part to-the Israel has become until which the filling/plhrwma <4138> of-the Nations may be entering; [Mark 3:5, Ephesians 4:18]

Ephesians 4:18 Having been darkened the understanding, being alienated the life of the God, thru the ignorance/ agnoian <52> the being in them, thru the hardening/pwrwsin <4457> of their heart;

Mark 3:5 And looking about them with wrath, sorrowing on the hardening/pwrwsei <4457> of their heart, He saith unto the man, "Stretch forth thy hand"!. And he stretcheth it forth; and his hand was restored as the other.
6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy Him.

[GerTzedek]

M&M

YOu obviously don't understand how grafting works. The plant which is grafted doesn't become the plant of the root. If I graft a peach branch onto a plum root, it doesn't become a plum branch. It still bears peaches! A wild olive branch grafted onto an olive root is not an olive branch and does not bear olives. It still bears the fruit of the oleaster (wild olive). So when the gentiles of the Church are grafted onto Israel, they bear better fruit because now they have a better root system, but they are NOT Jews, NOT Israel. They remain gentiles. This is why the council at Jerusalem ruled they need not become circumcised and come under Mosaic law.

[cyberlizard]

there is a way of looking at this passage that suggests the tree is not Israel, but rather the tree is faith and the roots are the faith of the patriarchs (which is more in keeping with the context of the book - particularly chapter 4).

Israel's children ought to have the active faith of their forefathers and be automatic branches, sadly this is not always the case and so some branches are not attached due to lack of faith towards G-d (such as jewish aethiests or jewish buddhists or who knows what), but they are easily grafted back in as that is their natural place to be!

As non-jewish believers, we are not natural branches, and our faith, if any is not usually toward the G-d of Abraham, but when we exercise our trust in Him to rescue us and take us in a, He accepts us, as whoever calls on the name of HaShem will be saved/redeemed/delivered.

that said though, through the death of Yeshua, we are brought into the commonwealth that is Israel (the family of faith) (even though we remain strangers and aliens to some degree) and as such able to partake of the blessings they have received such as the promises given to Abraham. Do we non-Jews have to keep Torah, I am still undecided... what i do know is that we should abstain for idolatry and then Moses is read in the synagogue each week so we can see what God requires of us.



Steve (open to being shot down for shoddy theology)

[GerTzedek]

well, cyberlizard, if a person really wants it bad enough, they can do logical back flips and try to make it seems like the olive tree doesn't refer to Israel. I'm sure that would be good enough for many. However, if they wrote that essay in my literature class, they'd get an awfully low grade. Not all interpretations are equally sensible.

[MandM]

there is a way of looking at this passage that suggests the tree is not Israel, but rather the tree is faith and the roots are the faith of the patriarchs (which is more in keeping with the context of the book - particularly chapter 4).

Israel's children ought to have the active faith of their forefathers and be automatic branches, sadly this is not always the case and so some branches are not attached due to lack of faith towards G-d (such as jewish aethiests or jewish buddhists or who knows what), but they are easily grafted back in as that is their natural place to be!

As non-jewish believers, we are not natural branches, and our faith, if any is not usually toward the G-d of Abraham, but when we exercise our trust in Him to rescue us and take us in a, He accepts us, as whoever calls on the name of HaShem will be saved/redeemed/delivered.

that said though, through the death of Yeshua, we are brought into the commonwealth that is Israel (the family of faith) (even though we remain strangers and aliens to some degree) and as such able to partake of the blessings they have received such as the promises given to Abraham. Do we non-Jews have to keep Torah, I am still undecided... what i do know is that we should abstain for idolatry and then Moses is read in the synagogue each week so we can see what God requires of us.



Steve (open to being shot down for shoddy theology)


I always appreciate your posts Steve.

Here is a scripture I would encourage you to meditate on:

Matthew 5:17-19

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Peace and blessings to you today Steve!

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here is a scripture I would encourage you to meditate on:

Matthew 5:17-19

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. ........Hi. Do you believe Jesus came to build up a Physical Priesthood/Temple or a Spiritual Temple/Priesthood.
Notice the same greek word used in Matt 5 as in Matt 24, and as we all know that was fulfilled, correct? :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw-down/katalusai <2647> (5658) the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw-down/katalusai <2647> (5658), but to fulfil;

Matthew 24:2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, there may not be left here a stone/liqoV <3037> upon a stone/liqon <3037>, that shall not be being thrown-down/kataluqhsetai <2647> (5701).'

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You left out the Old Testament part about other nations being joined to Israel. And Abraham becoming many nations.

[GerTzedek]

Lamb, why do you think it has to be an either/or?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Lamb, why do you think it has to be an either/or?Hi. I am just trying to help the Orthodox Jews understand our GNT better and if you will ask them, they will say JESUS did not accomplish all things for them.
Notice the same greek word used in Matt 5 and Reve 21 which is similar to the Hebrew word "hayah" in the OT.

You have to admit also that most english translations of the Bible today leave a lot to be desired.

Can I prove we are in the new "heaven/land/jerusalem", nope and neither do I try to prove it to Orthodox Jews.

Btw, how do Orthodox Jews view the new heaven/land/jerusalem of Isaiah 65?

Isaiah 65:17 For lo, I amcreating new heavens, and a new land, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

Matthew 5:18 Amen. For I am saying to ye, till ever may-be-passing-away the heaven and the land, iota one or one horn not no may-be-passing-away/parelqh <3928> (5632) from the Law, till ever all shall-be-becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638)

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a-heaven, New, and a-land, New, for the first heaven and the first land pass-away/parhlqen <3928> (5627),and the sea not is still..........
6 And He said to me:" it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754).I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end

http://www.christianforums.com/t5925329-question-on-exouds-3-and-i-am-hayah.html

[GerTzedek]

lamb, I don't think rabbinical Jews really care what is in the Christian scriptures. When you quote it to them, they probably feel the same way you would feel if someone began quoting from the Book of Mormon.

[MandM]

lamb, I don't think rabbinical Jews really care what is in the Christian scriptures. When you quote it to them, they probably feel the same way you would feel if someone began quoting from the Book of Mormon.


The difference there is that the Book of Mormon is a lie.

[LittleLambofJesus]

lamb, I don't think rabbinical Jews really care what is in the Christian scriptures. When you quote it to them, they probably feel the same way you would feel if someone began quoting from the Book of Mormon.Shalom. Perhaps because it has been depicted as "anti-jewish".
I had a thread awhile back on it and the reaction was pretty dramatic.

http://foru.ms/t3195836&page=7
The NT is Anti Jewish?
http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html (http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html)

Yet, there are Jews who, for various reasons, have chosen to overlook this fact and have joined themselves to "The Church" with its built-in anti-Semitism. According to Shmuel Golding, who founded and directed the Jerusalem Institute of Biblical Polemics for many years:

"Any Jew who can pay homage to the New Testament or allow himself to believe in it, is, in my opinion in the same category as a Jew who tries to justify Hitler's Mein Kampf or, as one who covers up for the deeds of the Nazis."

[visionary]

closed for staff review

[HadassahSukkot]

Nope, sorry. Grafting does not work that way.

Commonwealth does not work that way either.

Leopards do not lose spots, zebras their stripes, lions their mane and roar... upon being introduced in the commonwealth of a zoo..

Same works with ethnicity and being introduced into the commonwealth of a community.

[visionary]

Forgot to close the door

[cyberlizard]

Nope, sorry. Grafting does not work that way.

Commonwealth does not work that way either.

Leopards do not lose spots, zebras their stripes, lions their mane and roar... upon being introduced in the commonwealth of a zoo..

Same works with ethnicity and being introduced into the commonwealth of a community.


could you give some great insights into how you think grafting does work work, as well as citizenship, rather than just sweeping comments?

for people new to this kind of theology, comments like these are neither help nor constructive. If you think the interpretation is wrong. Put forward your point of view forward.

many thanks

Steve

p.s. nastiness or sarcasm are not the aim here, just the interpretation of the scripure.

[visionary]

Canada is part of the commonwealth of Britain... yet is it's own entitiy. They have a foundation of the same laws and then some of their own to make them distinct.

So commonwealth is to have the foundation.. the rock [The Ten Commandments] and then with Yeshua's blessing His Holy Spirit to guide us on the rest.

[ozell]

The Church Did Not Replace Israel - If You Are A Christian You Are A "Grafted In" Jew


There is a very dangerous current of theology going around Christian circles these days known as "Replacement theology" that says that the Church has replaced Israel.

That is a lie.

In Romans 11, the apostle Paul settles this issue once and for all. In that chapter, he tells us that gentiles who have come to Christ have been "grafted in" to the "olive tree" of Israel.

He also tells us that some branches were broken off. So there are those who were born to "Jewish" homes who think of themselves as "Jewish" who the Bible says are not part of the true Israel.

Here is the relevant part of Romans 11 below. After reading this, hopefully you will understand that if you are a Christian, you are a "grafted in" Jew:

Romans 11:11-24

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The Lord followed the exact same principle in the Torah. Look at the instructions the Lord gives to the people of Israel for dealing with a foreigner who comes in among them and follows the Lord:

Exodus 12:48-49


48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

So I hope this can help you to understand that if you are a Christian, then you have been "grafted in" to Israel.

If you are not a Christian, here is a little guide to help you understand how God feels about Israel, and to help you understant how you can come to know the Messiah of Israel:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp)


the church started in the wilderness with Jesus and Moses and the angel from God


Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The other nations who came out of egypt with Israel were part of the church.

they were called the mixed multitude.

Ex 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

the church started in the wilderness NOT of the Lord's
high sabbath called Pentecost.

[ozell]

The Church Did Not Replace Israel - If You Are A Christian You Are A "Grafted In" Jew


There is a very dangerous current of theology going around Christian circles these days known as "Replacement theology" that says that the Church has replaced Israel.

That is a lie.

In Romans 11, the apostle Paul settles this issue once and for all. In that chapter, he tells us that gentiles who have come to Christ have been "grafted in" to the "olive tree" of Israel.

He also tells us that some branches were broken off. So there are those who were born to "Jewish" homes who think of themselves as "Jewish" who the Bible says are not part of the true Israel.

Here is the relevant part of Romans 11 below. After reading this, hopefully you will understand that if you are a Christian, you are a "grafted in" Jew:

Romans 11:11-24

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The Lord followed the exact same principle in the Torah. Look at the instructions the Lord gives to the people of Israel for dealing with a foreigner who comes in among them and follows the Lord:

Exodus 12:48-49


48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

So I hope this can help you to understand that if you are a Christian, then you have been "grafted in" to Israel.

If you are not a Christian, here is a little guide to help you understand how God feels about Israel, and to help you understant how you can come to know the Messiah of Israel:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp)

the son's of adam must be grafted into the house of Israel.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

[DarkNLovely]

Just to add a little clarity to any lurkers who may not be familiar with Rep. Thol., people who believe in it call it Covenant Theology.

[ozell]

Zech 14


8: And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17: And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20: In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

21: Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[SGM4HIM]

well, cyberlizard, if a person really wants it bad enough, they can do logical back flips and try to make it seems like the olive tree doesn't refer to Israel. I'm sure that would be good enough for many. However, if they wrote that essay in my literature class, they'd get an awfully low grade. Not all interpretations are equally sensible.

Some of Israel is part of the living fruit bearing olive tree. Most believe the majority of Israel is not on the tree and refers to the group of Branches that Broke Off.

Sensible? If not who were the broken off Branches?

[GerTzedek]

Some of Israel is part of the living fruit bearing olive tree. Most believe the majority of Israel is not on the tree and refers to the group of Branches that Broke Off.

Sensible? If not who were the broken off Branches?
The broken off branches are those who do not aspire to keep the law. There plenty of Howard Sterns in the world.

[GerTzedek]

M&M

first: replacement theology is not new. It's been around in the church since the second century, fostering anti-semitism. leading ultimately to charges of "christ-killers" and pogroms and eventually the shoah.

second: your statement that believers become Jews is a form of replacement theology. It is nothing short of identity theft.

[SGM4HIM]

The broken off branches are those who do not aspire to keep the law. There plenty of Howard Sterns in the world.

Remember in the NT, those that touted the most to aspire to keep the law were in opposition to the teachings of Jesus & Paul.

Maybe Paul feels the broken off branches had a physical circumcision only and not one of the heart.

[Tonks]

There is a very dangerous current of theology going around Christian circles these days known as "Replacement theology" that says that the Church has replaced Israel.

Actually, supersessionism has been around for a long time. Likewise, perhaps the better way to state things is a "continuation" not a "replacement" as pilgrims along The Way followed God's road even when it took a curve rather than following their own tradition straight off the edge of the cliff. There are those that saw the Son of Man, knew He is the Son of God, and worshipped Him.

The problem being is that there are those that think that being a Jew is just fine and is salvific in and of itself...however Jews and Christians do not worship the same god. The god of the Jewish religion completely rejects the revealed All Holy Trinity. Non-Christians reject both the nature and substance of God.

[GerTzedek]

Actually, supersessionism has been around for a long time. Likewise, perhaps the better way to state things is a "continuation" not a "replacement" as pilgrims along The Way followed God's road even when it took a curve rather than following their own tradition straight off the edge of the cliff. There are those that saw the Son of Man, knew He is the Son of God, and worshipped Him.

The problem being is that there are those that think that being a Jew is just fine and is salvific in and of itself...however Jews and Christians do not worship the same god. The god of the Jewish religion completely rejects the revealed All Holy Trinity. Non-Christians reject both the nature and substance of God.
Oy veh. And here all those years as a Christian, I thought I was worshipping the G-d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. I guess someone told me wrong, since apparently as a Christian I worshipped a different G-d than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[GerTzedek]

Remember in the NT, those that touted the most to aspire to keep the law were in opposition to the teachings of Jesus & Paul.You may think so, but you won't find very many who agree with you here on this forum; certainly not me. Yeshua said, if you love me, keep my commandments. He said, Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. And Paul? Paul went to his death insisting that he kept EVERY tradition of the Jews.

[Tonks]

Oy veh. And here all those years as a Christian, I thought I was worshipping the G-d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. I guess someone told me wrong, since apparently as a Christian I worshipped a different G-d than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

There is a difference between the conception of the pre-Incarnate Christ and the vague inferences of the Holy Trinity in the OT and the birth of Christ Jesus. Perhaps after all the years as a Christian the fact that Christ was made manifest has some importance...

If that were not the case being a Jew would be just as salvific without the need for Christ. The OT righteous were saved from death at the Resurrection; they were clearly not held liable as Death still held dominion.

[GerTzedek]

There is a difference between the conception of the pre-Incarnate Christ and the vague inferences of the Holy Trinity in the OT and the birth of Christ Jesus. Perhaps after all the years as a Christian the fact that Christ was made manifest has some importance...

If that were not the case being a Jew would be just as salvific without the need for Christ. The OT righteous were saved from death at the Resurrection; they were clearly not held liable as Death still held dominion.
Tonks, the way it looks in my Bible, NT included, all Israel will be saved. Anything about "all" you don't understand? I mean, its the same word in "for all have sinned," eh? It's not like Judaism worked one second before Yeshua's death, and then stopped working one second after. These rabbinical Jews here on the forum? I fully expect to enjoy spending time with them in the world to come.

It is absolutely ridiculous for you to assert we do not worship the same G-d, unless it is you that is not worshipping the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Are you?

[mpossoff]

I was listening to a lecture yesterday. There was a guy who said "God has been talking to me, guiding and directing me to do so and so".

Then someone said "Which god has been speaking to you? As it better be the one and only God, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob".

Because the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob will not guide or direct you to disregard His commandments.

Marc

[Tonks]

Tonks, the way it looks in my Bible, NT included, all Israel will be saved. Anything about "all" you don't understand? I mean, its the same word in "for all have sinned," eh? It's not like Judaism worked one second before Yeshua's death, and then stopped working one second after. These rabbinical Jews here on the forum? I fully expect to enjoy spending time with them in the world to come.

It is absolutely ridiculous for you to assert we do not worship the same G-d, unless it is you that is not worshipping the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Are you?

The problem is that we have a different perception of what "Israel" is. Even apostates know God but they do not know the Lord. Likewise, much of this conversation gets bogged down in (eventual) charges of Anti-Semitism when, in fact, it is anti-Judaism from a theological standpoint.

It is not correct to speak of the church on one hand and Israel on the other. The Christian Church is not the Church of the Gentiles - far from it. Likewise, it is improper to even call Christians gentiles. The whole point of the Incarnation was to destroy the wall of separation between Israel and the Gentiles. Christians from any ethnic, cultural or national background become Israel in the Church, that very Israel of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac.

This, of course, begs the question of: what of the Jews after Christ? They are the same as any other non-Christian. The Church knows herself as the Church; in other word's God's Israel. We are not to judge non-Christians as only God knows if they belong to His beloved Israel. However, there is only one Israel, one people of God, and the Christian Church is the witness to this "oneness." Only in Christ is the opposition between the Jewish Israel and non-Jewish Gentiles broken.

Christendom can gain Salvation only being Israel and Jews can gain Salvation only by being part of that same Israel. It is a paradox of Judaism that until the Jews accept Christ's divinity, that they crucified God on Golgotha (God, against whom it is impossible to perpetrate an act of violence) they will remain unreconciled with God.

I dismiss, however, the (primarily) Catholic - but Western - attitude regarding the guilt of the Jews. That's ridiculous. Christ prayed to the Father after the Crucifixtion and forgave...I find the modern day obsession with "guilt" to be be noxious.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Jewish faith. Christianity is not some "new religion" but was accepted by the chosen Jews precisely because of their belief in Christ as the Jewish Messiah. There is only one God, only one Covenant - what is "new" in this Covenant is not the covenant itself but the opportunity for all to participate. Those non-Jewish Christians that do not consider themselves part of the God-beloved Israel are not part of the Church. Likewise, from the Jews, who do not consider themselves to be in one beloved Israel of God with righteous Christians from all other nations do not belong to Israel either and do not participate in the Covenant of God.

People speak of the "New / Old Covenant / Testment" as it it is, well, something "new." It is a continuation and is the fulfillment of faith and hope of all righteous.

The main body of Jews, then and now, reject Christ - and by extention - reject the belief that reconcilation with the Gentiles has already happened. But since the New Covenant is nothing more than the Old Covenant...those that reject as such place themselves outside the people of God. This goes for any believer of any religion...either the Jewish religion which has ties to Christianity or the Muslim religion (which is rather without excuse, imho) or any other religion.

There is no "replacement" of the Old Israel with the New as the New is precisely the Israel of Abraham, Moses and the prophets et al.

Regarding your comments surrouding rabbinical Jews...their Salvation will come through Christ alone and God may save who He will. However, there is no Jewish Messiah to come, nor some sort of Messianic Age as hoped for by Judaism. The Messiah has already come and He will return once more for the Dread Judgment. The longing and hope for a Jewish Messiah is a false hope.

The most astounding event in Salvation history is the Incarnation of the God-Man, Christ Jesus. The Holy Trinity is implicit in OT Scripture but was fully made manifest in the birth of Christ. The gates of heaven have been thrown open and this is the true dividing line.

Pilgrims along The Way followed God's road even when it took a curve rather than following their own tradition straight off the edge of the cliff. There are those that saw the Son of Man, knew He is the Son of God, and worshipped Him.

Christ crucified, by death trampling Death takes Adam by hand, raising him from his tomb to lead him to eternal life with Christ. Christ holds the cross, already transformed from an instrument of death into the means of life.

The persons liberated in Hades were the righteous before Christ...receiving that salvation for which they longed. These individuals, remember, were not the damned...not the reprobates. In other words he harrowed Hades to liberate the captives from death in his own resurrection.

However, with the introduction of death into the equation through man's sin and departure from the nurturing relationship with God through which we were to enter the fullness of the life with the Trinity, the human nature that was to be incorporated into life in the Trinity was altered, thus necessitating Christ sharing in our death and conquering it by his glorious Resurrection.

Those in Hades were simply the dead awaiting resurrection...not the punished. Those that died before Christ? There was no Resurrection in which they could partake...Death had not yet been conquered and those that died prior were still held captive.

However, Death has been conquered for us...the gates are open and the path is clear. Those that have declined to seek after their own soul and conformity to his Likeness, by Grace, risk eternal damnation. Such is the fate of post-resurrection Jews and Muslims - those that reject the New Covenant (in the case of Muslims...both the Old and New).

The maximum effective range of Salvation by belief in the god of the Jewish religion or god of the Muslim religion is zero.

[muffler dragon]

The problem being is that there are those that think that being a Jew is just fine and is salvific in and of itself...

Perhaps it would be of benefit for you to read the Jewish portion of your Bible in order to see just what following the Torah does for a Jew. ;)

however Jews and Christians do not worship the same god. The god of the Jewish religion completely rejects the revealed All Holy Trinity. Non-Christians reject both the nature and substance of God.

The emboldened is the only part I have an interest in addressing.

In Judaism (and my belief), G-d is ineffable and beyond our finite knowledge. Therefore, there is no rejection of G-d's nature; but instead, there is ignorance when even trying to contemplate it. As for substance, G-d is immaterial; therefore, once again, there is no rejection. Just a different POV.

[muffler dragon]

Tonks:

Do you realize that your above post is right in line with Replacement Theology? Just wanted to make sure you weren't arguing otherwise.

[Tonks]

Tonks:

Do you realize that your above post is right in line with Replacement Theology? Just wanted to make sure you weren't arguing otherwise.

Of course. I know that it is not allowed to be argued in the main forum...hence why it is in the debate sub.

[muffler dragon]

Of course. I know that it is not allowed to be argued in the main forum...hence why it is in the debate sub.

I wasn't bringing it up for that reason. Personally, I could care less if RT is argued here or anywhere else. I asked, because I find very few people that actually promote the stance of RT when they are shown that's what they believe. Whether they change or not is another story; however, the propagation of the theology tends to diminish in some circles.

[visionary]

The maximum effective range of Salvation by belief in the god of the Jewish religion or god of the Muslim religion is zero.The maximum effective range of salvation by belief in God, the Holy One of Israel, is the same faith Yeshua put His trust in to raise Him from the grave. So it works...very well thank you.

[SGM4HIM]

You may think so, but you won't find very many who agree with you here on this forum; certainly not me. Yeshua said, if you love me, keep my commandments. He said, Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. And Paul? Paul went to his death insisting that he kept EVERY tradition of the Jews.

So you believe the law keepers that opposed Jesus and Paul's claim that Jesus was God with us, are part of the living olive tree branches and the "David Stern types "? are the Broken off branches; and most messianics forum members agree with you?

[Tonks]

The maximum effective range of salvation by belief in God, the Holy One of Israel, is the same faith Yeshua put His trust in to raise Him from the grave. So it works...very well thank you.

The OT righteous et al were saved by the Harrowing of Hell after Christ's death.

Your statement make's Christ unnecessary unless I'm reading it incorrectly.

[muffler dragon]

The OT righteous et al were saved by the Harrowing of Hell after Christ's death.

Your statement make's Christ unnecessary unless I'm reading it incorrectly.

Considering that the Christian doctrine of "hell" is foreign to Judaism, I guess it doesn't really matter.

[Tonks]

Considering that the Christian doctrine of "hell" is foreign to Judaism, I guess it doesn't really matter.

I suppose not. Then again I figured this was the MJ place.

[muffler dragon]

I suppose not. Then again I figured this was the MJ place.

1) Replacement Theology doesn't deal with replacing Messianics. It deals with replacing Jews.
2) There are a number of Messianics who also don't ascribe to the Christian doctrine of "hell".

[Tonks]

1) Replacement Theology doesn't deal with replacing Messianics. It deals with replacing Jews.

I wasn't discussing RT in the previous post.


2) There are a number of Messianics who also don't ascribe to the Christian doctrine of "hell".

How is that possible?

[visionary]

I wasn't discussing RT in the previous post.



How is that possible?How is hell, christianity style not believed by MJ... easy, they studied the bible. Check out this thread on the subject of hell.

http://foru.ms/t1529924-oh-hell.html

and

http://foru.ms/t4363256