Judeo-Christian Religions and Political and Social Issues in America

[shlomoh]

I am starting this thread because I feel there are vital issues to be discussed since the United States entered the era of the marriage of politics and religion. I invite all to enter into discussions with me. I hope I can gnerate interest.

[shlomoh]

Here are three exerpts from 3 different websites about Harry Potter. Christian reaction has bee4n strong. I am interested to know if messianics share the same feelings as other Christians on this issue
-------------------------------------

A bonfire of Harry Potter books have been burnt on a bonfire in New Mexico, by people accusing the fictional boy wizard of being the devil.
JK Rowling's novels were burnt alongside other items considered to be the work of the devil, including horror books by Stephen King, ouija boards and AC/DC records.
Eminem CDs and copies of Disney's Snow White film were thrown in a dustbin.

Protesters denounced the burning as "ignorant"

The congregation of the Christ Community Church in Alamogordo in southern New Mexico heard an anti-Harry Potter sermon in which Pastor Jack Brock claimed the character taught children to take up wizardry.
"Behind that innocent face is the power of satanic darkness," he said. "Harry Potter is the devil and he is destroying people."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1735623.stm

Book Burning: A True Christian® Tradition
The burning of books is nothing new to True Christians®. We invented the practice over two-thousand years ago as a way to promote our faith in the Lord Jesus. In the early days of Christianity, when new believers in Christ were converted, they were naturally moved by the Holy Spirit to grab as many books as they could and pitch them into a fire. Unlike the sissy "Jesus is Love" fake-Christians (whom both the Lord Jesus and we loathe) we have running around today, the early followers of Christ were never ashamed to burn books. In fact, if you ever find yourself being grateful for the destruction of most of the works of pagan nincompoops like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, you have a Christian to thank! In the Book of Acts we learn that anyone who wants to follow Jesus, should get ready to start burning books at the drop of a hat. The Book of Acts teaches us that burning someone's books is a great way spread God's word.
In the aftermath of September 11th, a spiritual awakening is sweeping across the United States of America. One of the great signs that the Holy Spirit is moving in the hearts and souls of Americans is our glorious and sacred return to the practice of book burning. Secular humanists and Atheists have spent hundreds of years trying to make "book burners" look bad. Oftentimes the media paints a terrible image of book burners. "They make us out to look like fanatics or Germans," said one Christian. Did you know that a militant homosexual named Ray Bradbury, even wrote a popular book called Farenheight 451 about book burning? He made Christians out to look like fools! Well, Mr. Bradbury, if you are still alive, and God hasn't sent you to Hell yet, we'd like you to know that Farenheight 451 is also a book that can be burned. And nobody would miss it!
As most Christians already know, the Harry Potter book series is the most evil and dangerous set of books to be released this century. "The Potter series is worse than pornography. The books are even more dangerous than the Satanic Bible," reports Pastor Deacon Fred, "At least with the Satanic Bible, young people know that the book was written by Satan. The Devil just changed his name to J.K. Rowling this time." The release of the fifth book in the Harry Potter series has been delayed because Christians have been praying to God that he will send angels to scramble Satan's brain and force him to admit Rowling's spent body to a mental hospital so that the whole series will never be completed.
To celebrate the delayed release of the fifth Harry Potter book and the post September 11th return to American Christian values, The Truly Saved® all across America are calling upon the name of Jesus this Halloween to decrease the number of Harry Potter books currently circulating in America by at least 70%. "We're giving True Christian® school children the Biblical authority to remove these evil books from their school libraries, bookstores, homes, grocery stores, and anywhere they find them," said Pastor Deacon Fred. "All they need to say is, Jesus wants me to take this book! Friends, let's help this great Country return to it's True Christian® roots. Wont' you please set up a Holy Ghost book fire at your local church on Satan's Birthday this Halloween? Thank you."
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1002/bookburning.html

Harry Potter And The Ministry Of Fire
David Serchuk, 12.01.06, 12:00 PM ET

In August 2003, two Michigan pastors, T.D. Turner Sr. and son T.D. Turner Jr., took a stand against sorcery by burning a Harry Potter book outside their Jesus Non-Denominational Church. The younger Turner, Tommy, says that while he hadn't read the book, the cover alone showed him it promoted wizardry, adding that Potter-related Web sites were gateways to harder stuff. The last straw came when a local girl tried to perform a magic spell. (She was unable, as far as we can tell, to turn anybody into a newt.)
"Parents [have to] realize this is more than a fictional book," says Turner. "It's attached to the occult."
The fire so inflamed parishioners' passions that, according to the Detroit Free Press, some of the 50 spectators proceeded to burn the Book of Mormon, a non-King James edition of the Bible, and even the Dan Aykroyd movie Coneheads. Turner regrets that things got out of control, but adds, "Since the burning, our ministry is growing and can seat another 400 members," he says. "God has been blessing us."
http://www.forbes.com/2006/11/30/book-burnings-potter-tech-media_cz_ds_books06_1201burn.html

[shlomoh]

I am curious as to the Messianic attitudes toward abortion. I can state the classical Jewish view. If any messianic considers him/her-self a Jew, then what is the Jewish attitude?

[Steve Petersen]

There is no real power in witcraft. It is nonsense and poppycock. The power is in what people believe about it. If you believe that someone has power, they do: Over you!

[LittleLambofJesus]

A bonfire of Harry Potter books have been burnt on a bonfire in New Mexico, by people accusing the fictional boy wizard of being the devil.
JK Rowling's novels were burnt alongside other items considered to be the work of the devil, including horror books by Stephen King, .................

Protesters denounced the burning as "ignorant"
I agree it is ingnorant. The "devil" is overrated and misunderstood in much of Christianity I believe.
I actually enjoyed the Harry Potter movies myself. :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 John 3:8 The one-doing the sin, out of the Devil is, that from beginning the devil is sinning. Into this was manifested the Son of the God, that he should be loosing/lush <3089> (5661) the works of the Devil

[shlomoh]

Let me add a few comments about the devil. Pat Robinson just came out against Halloween. This is so ridiculous. He doesn't want kids to celebrate Halloween.
I heard this same stupidity when I was an Orthodox jew and so I deprived my child of the fun that all the neighbor kids were enjoying. It's plain dumb. And certain Christians glory in burning books when that's what the Nazis and the Inquisition did. Now about the devil. Christianity has elevated the devil to be the counterpart to God, maybe superior to God because the devil seems to have more power over men than God has. Jews don't give much thought to the devil; he's practically ignored.
Christianity needed a devil for its theology in order to make sense of the theology about salvation through Christ. if there were no devil, Jesus would have been superfluous. Jewish tradition talks about the messiah fighting mortals, not a devil. The reason that Christianity makes so much of the devil is that the particular Jewish religion of Jesus put emphasis on the devil; but classical Judiaism doesn't. Calling Harry Potter a threat is ridiculous. Children are much more afraid of the Rapture than they are of Harry.

[HaNotsri]

I am curious as to the Messianic attitudes toward abortion. I can state the classical Jewish view. If any messianic considers him/her-self a Jew, then what is the Jewish attitude?

The traditional Jewish attitude is generally one that is pro-life EXCEPT in the case where a mother's life is in danger. From what I understand, it's mandatory to save the mother's life in such cases.

[Henaynei]

Here are three excerpts from 3 different websites about Harry Potter. Christian reaction has been strong. I am interested to know if messianics share the same feelings as other Christians on this issue
------------------------------------- I'm not about book burning, but I also do believe the Potter books are an extreme detriment to children especially.... AND that they have opened a door to children for a genre` of writings that will be even worse .... poison with candy flavor and even "vitamins" in it.....

[Henaynei]

I am curious as to the Messianic attitudes toward abortion. I can state the classical Jewish view. If any messianic considers him/her-self a Jew, then what is the Jewish attitude?life begins at conception, period. the womb is supposed to be the safest place for a child, not the most dangerous.... the time for choice is before one gets pregnant.... once pregnant the opportunity for "choice" has passed .... it is time for other choices: keeping the baby, giving to adoption.... and being as healthy as possible for the entire pregnancy.... imho - as an unwed mother who went through this and as one who has helped others go through it, this is my firm belief, based, I believe, on scripture ....

in the interest of full disclosure.... I conceived 2 children out of wedlock (to the same father).... the first went to adoption, the second I kept.... and I have been an active participant in Operation Rescue .... I DO NOT say these things to start a discussion, much less an argument, just to be honestly open and transparent on this issue and my POV.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[shlomoh]

life begins at conception, period. the womb is supposed to be the safest place for a child, not the most dangerous.... the time for choice is before one gets pregnant.... once pregnant the opportunity for "choice" has passed .... it is time for other choices: keeping the baby, giving to adoption.... and being as healthy as possible for the entire pregnancy.... imho - as an unwed mother who went through this and as one who has helped others go through it, this is my firm belief, based, I believe, on scripture ....

in the interest of full disclosure.... I conceived 2 children out of wedlock (to the same father).... the first went to adoption, the second I kept.... and I have been an active participant in Operation Rescue .... I DO NOT say these things to start a discussion, much less an argument, just to be honestly open and transparent on this issue and my POV.

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Hello and thanks for responding. The nature of messages here is that they Do start discussions. Arguments are not necessary.
Just to clear up the issue of "when life begins". Whether life begins at conception is moot. At conception what is "life"?
According to Jewish law, a human being comes into existence when the baby is 2/3 outside the womb. Before that, Judaism does not consider the embryo a human being altho it is a potential life. The Jewish attitude towards abortion is not absoluite but is judged on a case by case basis. A religious Jewess would consult a Beth Din to get their opinion as to wether or not she should have an abortion.

[shlomoh]

I'm not about book burning, but I also do believe the Potter books are an extreme detriment to children especially.... AND that they have opened a door to children for a genre` of writings that will be even worse .... poison with candy flavor and even "vitamins" in it.....
Please state EXACTLY hwo the Harry Potter books hurt children. Most of the time when people claim that media hurt children, it's [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]. I heard in my day that movies hurt children, TV hurts childreb, cartoons hurt children, the Internet hursts children. It's like we don't give children credit for having a brain and being able to figure things out. Supposedly Teletubbies and Tom and Jerry hurt children. Gimmie a break!

[shlomoh]

The traditional Jewish attitude is generally one that is pro-life EXCEPT in the case where a mother's life is in danger. From what I understand, it's mandatory to save the mother's life in such cases.
There may be other cases where abortion is permitted but each case is judged on its own merits by a Beth Din if the people involved are religious.

[shlomoh]

I was watching a TV program on Public Access a few days ago and the host was interviewing an "expert" on
"jihad" which he defines as any religious expression which wants to destory the modern [Western} world and its culture. The expert pointed out that Islam is uncomfortable with democracy but he also pointed out that Orthodox Judaism and evangelical Protestantism are
also uncomfortable with democracy. I think tho that while Islamists are not afraid to say they are uncomfortable with democracy because it goes against
SHARIA, Christians are a bit shy to voice any opinion against democracy because while they claim to be righteous people they also claim to be good Americans. What do YOU say?

[Yehoshua]

Democracy is only as good as the people it represents. Like communism it looks good on paper but in real life it is flawed. I think people make the misconnection between America's prosperity and democracy. My problem is that when a society has degenerated to the point ours has, Democrazy becomes like the tower of Babel. There’s no debate with the law of HaShem. Democracy is secondary, in that we follow those rules, morals, codes of G-d, and use democracy to decide were to put roads, protect the environment, get clean drinking water, etc. Democracy is a means, not an end.

[visionary]

This has started out in a nice conversation manner, but because of the concern over the controversal areas of these subject matters, I am moving this to debate.

[shlomoh]

Democracy is only as good as the people it represents. Like communism it looks good on paper but in real life it is flawed. I think people make the misconnection between America's prosperity and democracy. My problem is that when a society has degenerated to the point ours has, Democrazy becomes like the tower of Babel. There’s no debate with the law of HaShem. Democracy is secondary, in that we follow those rules, morals, codes of G-d, and use democracy to decide were to put roads, protect the environment, get clean drinking water, etc. Democracy is a means, not an end.
Yehoshua
You speak as a religious fundamentalist when talking about democracy and show a certain discomfort with it as I said in my original post. Deomcracy covers much more than you point out. It covers all the law including the moral and ethical ones but it doesn't go far enough.
If a person truly is religious and believes in the words of the Sermon On The MOunt, he would expect much more from his government, especially making sure that the poor are treated justly but in this country, those self-righteous in power act more like tyants than like the Christians they calim to be.

[Henaynei]

Hello and thanks for responding. The nature of messages here is that they Do start discussions. Arguments are not necessary.
Just to clear up the issue of "when life begins". Whether life begins at conception is moot. At conception what is "life"?
According to Jewish law, a human being comes into existence when the baby is 2/3 outside the womb. Before that, Judaism does not consider the embryo a human being altho it is a potential life. The Jewish attitude towards abortion is not absolute but is judged on a case by case basis. A religious Jewess would consult a Beth Din to get their opinion as to whether or not she should have an abortion.I am one of the stronger proponents of halakah on this forum, for a Messianic.... however there are times that halakah seems to be strangely at odds with scripture....

Scripture states that life begins in the womb.... numerous instances show this as scripture speaks of the life of the child before it is born, even that actions of the child before it is born, in at least one instance holding the child accountable for their actions long before they were "2/3 outside the womb"....additionally Torah proscribes a penalty for killing an unborn child ....

granting that a "real and present danger" to the life of the mother (NOT just a potential danger nor defining "health" to include mental comfort or financial distress) could be defended from a scriptural POV .... but 95+% of abortions today in any of the developed world (including US and Israel) have *nothing* to do with preserving the life of the mother ...

fwiw - I think the view of halakah toward abortion as stated above is a tool of the adversary that he is using to try to destroy Israel ..... the abortion rate in Israel pre capita is higher than in the US, the actual birth rate lower ..... meanwhile the abortion rate among the Arabs and Palestinians is effectually nil and their population is growing by leaps and bounds .... what is going to happen to Israel when they become like the US where the majority of her people are over 50? How do you field a geriatric defense force against a youthful one?