greener fields

[Simon_Templar]

I normally try to prevent myself from making dramatic leaving statements before I take my ball and go home.. however, in this case some explanation, I feel, is needed.

I was in this forum since the very beginning. In fact, I actually wrote one of the early drafts of the SoF for this forum.

There was a period at the founding where I almost left. I stopped posting here for a week or two and wasn't planning on coming back, but I eventually relented.

Why did I leave?

Because I felt that the forum had started off too liberal. A big fight had gone on regarding some of the statements I put in the SoF which were deemed to be to limiting and too "traditional".

Yet now I find myself in a position where I have had to side with the "liberals" and it is the so called "conservatives" who's behavior I can't abide.

I am appalled by the behavior I have seen in here.

Have liberal or moderate people come in here and bothered the conservatives... yes.
Have they filed reports on us for speaking our mind in our own forum... yes.

But none of this is new. None of it is signficiantly different from business as it has always been on this site. Back when this forum first started there was a flurry of 'spite' reporting between conservatives let alone moderates and liberal infiltrators.

If someone spite reports you... who cares? seriously.. what does it matter? You defend yourself, you move on, you keep posting.

I've never reported anyone in this forum. I've been reported a few times over my three years here. Who cares. Its not a form of persecution, its not some kind of demonic attack, it is what happens when people interact and feathers get ruffled.

Yet the response I have seen in here.. is truly appalling. The attitude I've seen from people is disgusting.

Conservatives always battle being unfairly labeled by liberals as cold hearted, uncaring, self centered etc... well, there is a statement I frequently use when people complain about being stereotyped.. usually I use it on liberals.. in this case its fitting for this forum...

If you don't like Stereotypes, DON'T BE ONE.

There is no honor in defending yourself from a charge that accurately depicts you.

At the end of the day, the trouble here has not really been about conservative issues, or conservatives vs. liberals... those things have been around since before this forum was even founded, they've been around as long as this forum has existed. The real issue here has been a group of people who care more about being right than about anyone or anything else.

I hope at some point you guys open your eyes and see that there is no truth without love, just as there is no love without truth. No matter how firm you stand, no matter how much change you effect, if you have not love you are useless to the Kingdom.

[NewGuy101]

bye bye Simon :hug:

btw anyone know what the heck my icon is? i never heard of that denomination/sect.

[Simon_Templar]

bye bye Simon :hug:

btw anyone know what the heck my icon is? i never heard of that denomination/sect.
Its Old Catholic.. its a group of Catholic Churches that go back to an odd legal situation in which the Utrecht church was basically given independance from Rome (sub par definition, but the basic idea).

See ya later :hug:

[Criada]

Sorry to see you go, Simon - you bring wisdom and clarity so often.
You will be missed very much - but I can understand why you feel you have to leave.
God bless you.
:hug: :hug:

[Father Rick]

bye bye Simon :hug:

btw anyone know what the heck my icon is? i never heard of that denomination/sect.

Its Old Catholic.. its a group of Catholic Churches that go back to an odd legal situation in which the Utrecht church was basically given independance from Rome (sub par definition, but the basic idea).

See ya later :hug:
LOL...

It means you're one of my folks!

"Old Catholic" priest here!


OC's are Catholics that separated from Rome at Vatican I over the issue of Papal Infallibity. It was basically the church of the Netherlands, who had been underground since shortly after the Great Schism of 1054 due to persecution. Due to the persecution, edicts were issued that the See of Utrecht (located in Holland) had the right to appoint its own successors instead of having to answer to Rome. The separation that occurred was similar to the Anglican one-- and OC's and Anglicans are actually pretty interchangeable, with the Utrection Union of OC's being in full communion with the Anglican Communion. However, unlike the Anglicans, the Romans recognize OC lines of apostolic succession as valid... and the OC relationship to the RCC is similar to that of the EO's.

[nyj]

This is most unfortunate. :(

[DerSchweik]

Simon, much of what you write I have to agree with. I hate to admit it, but much of it is, unfortunately, true.

We could learn some things from our Lord.

11Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "it is as you say."
12And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He did not answer.
13Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"
14And He did not answer him with regard to even a single charge, so the governor was quite amazed. (Mt 27:11-15)

When others spoke the truth of Him, He affirmed it - He replied.
When they spoke lies of Him, He remained silent.

At the fear of offending others here - and please, to any who might read this, I mean no offense, but we seem to be overly sensitive to accusations, lies, false doctrines, etc. -- We seem to be unable to just ignore such people; instead we feel compelled to respond, when IMHO response in most cases would be entirely unproductive and generally inflame the situation or worse, give credence to what they have to say by giving them greater shrift and opportunity to spread their venom.

Gracious behavior generally dictates we simply "walk away" from dissention and false accusations.

Gracious behavior generally does not feel the need to defend oneself in the wake of false accusations.

Gracious behavior understands what it means to reply to a fool, and well, it won't. Not all opposition is foolish - but when posters write not to get at the truth, but instead seek to promote their own version of the truth, it generally degenerates quite rapidly - and noticeably, becoming devisive rather than uplifting or edifying. When this happens, it is a good sign that we should simply "sign off" and move on to a thread where edification exists.

What is hard for most of us conservatives to accept is the fact we are targets for such opposition and frankly, hatred. Opposition groups feel far less heat than we do generally, usually because they are the source for such heat.

The simple truth is that the most effective form of opposition to opposition is SILENCE - simply ignore the person and you knock their podium right out from under them.


"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." Reinhold Niebuhr


But Simon, I would urge you to continue here; ply your wisdom and knowledge to serve the group to understand and hopefully grow in wisdom as well.

God bless you regardless...

[Nadiine]

Simon, much of what you write I have to agree with. I hate to admit it, but much of it is, unfortunately, true.

We could learn some things from our Lord.

11Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "it is as you say."
12And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He did not answer.
13Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"
14And He did not answer him with regard to even a single charge, so the governor was quite amazed. (Mt 27:11-15)

When others spoke the truth of Him, He affirmed it - He replied.
When they spoke lies of Him, He remained silent.

At the fear of offending others here - and please, to any who might read this, I mean no offense, but we seem to be overly sensitive to accusations, lies, false doctrines, etc. -- We seem to be unable to just ignore such people; instead we feel compelled to respond, when IMHO response in most cases would be entirely unproductive and generally inflame the situation or worse, give credence to what they have to say by giving them greater shrift and opportunity to spread their venom.

Gracious behavior generally dictates we simply "walk away" from dissention and false accusations.

Gracious behavior generally does not feel the need to defend oneself in the wake of false accusations.

Gracious behavior understands what it means to reply to a fool, and well, it won't. Not all opposition is foolish - but when posters write not to get at the truth, but instead seek to promote their own version of the truth, it generally degenerates quite rapidly - and noticeably, becoming devisive rather than uplifting or edifying. When this happens, it is a good sign that we should simply "sign off" and move on to a thread where edification exists.

What is hard for most of us conservatives to accept is the fact we are targets for such opposition and frankly, hatred. Opposition groups feel far less heat than we do generally, usually because they are the source for such heat.

The simple truth is that the most effective form of opposition to opposition is SILENCE - simply ignore the person and you knock their podium right out from under them.



But Simon, I would urge you to continue here; ply your wisdom and knowledge to serve the group to understand and hopefully grow in wisdom as well.

God bless you regardless...
No, you have points here Der, so does Simon. Points are taken.

There's definite anger here (even warrented anger) - and it appears as if there are plots formed and you learn as you go along.

In another way, however, like I've stated in many many posts around the forums, different people come to different forum areas for different reasons.
You guys may be led in a certain ministry and have certain gifts of the Spirit that you operate in.

Others have other reasons, gifts, ministries & agenda's here. Not that in all times they've operated in God's will - I'm simply making the point that there are times to be silent, and times to speak out or expose or push back (the verse quoted of Jesus being silent is just fine and true, however there are OTHER verses that show Jesus defending who He was to the people).

Anyways, it's not entirely right to sit back & claim complete passivity and point at the people taking other directions in EVERY single case or instance as if they're ALWAYS in the wrong; becuz I do not agree they are always doing wrong in motive or operation.

Additionally, the entire forum is "broken" - it's hemmoraging and coming apart in many other ways.
So, some added GRACE would be a great help to Christians around here rather than continual scoldings or making them feel like what they're experience isn't validated - just chastisement.

I don't like the way everyone operates here - I personall dislike complete neutral passivity at all times.... plus, even some of my own posts I'd like to have a redo of them too. But my motive always remains the same and I have peace in my heart and my conscience clear as to my motive and mission.

I just dislike long chastisements on the way out as if 'everyone else is the problem, goodbye.'

[DerSchweik]

No, you have points here Der, so does Simon. Points are taken.

There's definite anger here (even warrented anger) - and it appears as if there are plots formed and you learn as you go along.

In another way, however, like I've stated in many many posts around the forums, different people come to different forum areas for different reasons.
You guys may be led in a certain ministry and have certain gifts of the Spirit that you operate in.

Others have other reasons, gifts, ministries & agenda's here. Not that in all times they've operated in God's will - I'm simply making the point that there are times to be silent, and times to speak out or expose or push back (the verse quoted of Jesus being silent is just fine and true, however there are OTHER verses that show Jesus defending who He was to the people).

Anyways, it's not entirely right to sit back & claim complete passivity and point at the people taking other directions in EVERY single case or instance as if they're ALWAYS in the wrong; becuz I do not agree they are always doing wrong in motive or operation.

Additionally, the entire forum is "broken" - it's hemmoraging and coming apart in many other ways.
So, some added GRACE would be a great help to Christians around here rather than continual scoldings or making them feel like what they're experience isn't validated - just chastisement.

I don't like the way everyone operates here - I personall dislike complete neutral passivity at all times.... plus, even some of my own posts I'd like to have a redo of them too. But my motive always remains the same and I have peace in my heart and my conscience clear as to my motive and mission.

I just dislike long chastisements on the way out as if 'everyone else is the problem, goodbye.'

No disagreement, Nadiine; in fact, great points.

I haven't been here that long and I will certainly claim no "insider information" regarding many of the details you allude to. Nor do I claim answers for all of this - which is primarily why I generalized as I did.

I realize some of the anger is warranted - and honestly, I tend to feel the same way, having read much of what I have thus far. Still, our responses (and I purposely include myself here) warrant at least a review, in some cases anyway, whether they meet the "laugh test" of Christian worthiness. IOW - would Jesus really respond this way Himself.

It is disheartening to see the "hemmoraging" as you described it - but it is also good to see others such as yourself providing some "cauterization" where needed. I appreciate the posts of yours that I have read. They always seem to have a "calming" effect, bolstered by wisdom and in general, always seem a gracious approach. Thanks. It is a good example you set.

"I opine, therefore, I am." Unfortunately, this has been my motto - once going, it is hard for me to shut up. I can be as aggressive as anyone defending the faith, defending conservatism, etc. And both my mouth and my pen have gotten me into plenty of trouble in the past. I think I have learned somewhat from my past blunders. I hope, and I pray constantly that I am learning when to defend and when to simply walk away or ignore - when to speak and when to shut up - how to behave gracefully whenever I can. Be certain of this though - it is not easy to walk away or ignore some things - and I can blurt with the best of them. :)

While shutting up is sometimes the right response, I don't necessarily ascribe to "giving up." Two completely different responses, IMO.

Ah, but my tendency to verbosity exposes itself. Gotta git down to the git down and hand out candy now.

Thanks Nadiine,

God bless.

[Nadiine]

No disagreement, Nadiine; in fact, great points.

I haven't been here that long and I will certainly claim no "insider information" regarding many of the details you allude to. Nor do I claim answers for all of this - which is primarily why I generalized as I did.

I realize some of the anger is warranted - and honestly, I tend to feel the same way, having read much of what I have thus far. Still, our responses (and I purposely include myself here) warrant at least a review, in some cases anyway, whether they meet the "laugh test" of Christian worthiness. IOW - would Jesus really respond this way Himself.

It is disheartening to see the "hemmoraging" as you described it - but it is also good to see others such as yourself providing some "cauterization" where needed. I appreciate the posts of yours that I have read. They always seem to have a "calming" effect, bolstered by wisdom and in general, always seem a gracious approach. Thanks. It is a good example you set.

"I opine, therefore, I am." Unfortunately, this has been my motto - once going, it is hard for me to shut up. I can be as aggressive as anyone defending the faith, defending conservatism, etc. And both my mouth and my pen have gotten me into plenty of trouble in the past. I think I have learned somewhat from my past blunders. I hope, and I pray constantly that I am learning when to defend and when to simply walk away or ignore - when to speak and when to shut up - how to behave gracefully whenever I can. Be certain of this though - it is not easy to walk away or ignore some things - and I can blurt with the best of them. :)

While shutting up is sometimes the right response, I don't necessarily ascribe to "giving up." Two completely different responses, IMO.

Ah, but my tendency to verbosity exposes itself. Gotta git down to the git down and hand out candy now.

Thanks Nadiine,

God bless.
That's very kool Der.
Ya know, I'm more than willing to admit when I've made "reactionary" posts -- I get angry too, absolutely.
And I'm the first to admit some of my posts aren't how Jesus would react. (& that's why I'm NOT Him :( ) lol

(but that's not to claim that I consider Jesus was a hippy passivist that wouldn't be so aggressive as to swat a fly if it landed on his lip!) lol (chronicles of Ghandi, page 426).

But, I at least thank you for taking in the entire scope of not just this site, but the attacks going on here by opposing groups... I guess my post was to just say that we all play a part in this; even if you pick a side of a friend and play partiality; where you show aid and comfort to them while they attack someone else (you don't have to even be doing the attacking - just showing them favor does the job).
So it's everybody... or, you stand in the middle & lob neutral grenades on Christian brothers as if they're all immature & bad.

And I have seen that of some who are chastizing some of us in here thru this. So no one's "blameless" in my view. Leaving on a hostile note can play a part too (serving the enemy's cause, etc.) --- it all gets thrown into the swirly cesspool of jumbled issues; each thing promotes another in little ways till it errupts later.

Kind of like a little rowboat that springs one leak and then new leaks keep popping up to make the eventual capsize.

But thanks for your fairness - it's very refreshing to me and that's about all I ask in all this convoluded mess.
:hug: :thumbsup:

[IamRedeemed]

Good post. Excellent points, all the way around.

God bless

No, you have points here Der, so does Simon. Points are taken.

There's definite anger here (even warrented anger) - and it appears as if there are plots formed and you learn as you go along.

In another way, however, like I've stated in many many posts around the forums, different people come to different forum areas for different reasons.
You guys may be led in a certain ministry and have certain gifts of the Spirit that you operate in.

Others have other reasons, gifts, ministries & agenda's here. Not that in all times they've operated in God's will - I'm simply making the point that there are times to be silent, and times to speak out or expose or push back (the verse quoted of Jesus being silent is just fine and true, however there are OTHER verses that show Jesus defending who He was to the people).

Anyways, it's not entirely right to sit back & claim complete passivity and point at the people taking other directions in EVERY single case or instance as if they're ALWAYS in the wrong; becuz I do not agree they are always doing wrong in motive or operation.

Additionally, the entire forum is "broken" - it's hemmoraging and coming apart in many other ways.
So, some added GRACE would be a great help to Christians around here rather than continual scoldings or making them feel like what they're experience isn't validated - just chastisement.

I don't like the way everyone operates here - I personall dislike complete neutral passivity at all times.... plus, even some of my own posts I'd like to have a redo of them too. But my motive always remains the same and I have peace in my heart and my conscience clear as to my motive and mission.

I just dislike long chastisements on the way out as if 'everyone else is the problem, goodbye.'

[Izdaari]

I pretty much agree with Simon's diagnosis, but I'm not leaving just yet. True, I'm not real active here right now... but that may be a good thing. I'm very put off by the aggressive-defensive tense atmosphere, and I'm trying not to add to the problems. If I see someplace I might actually be of help, I'll jump in.

[GreenMunchkin]

I normally try to prevent myself from making dramatic leaving statements before I take my ball and go home.. however, in this case some explanation, I feel, is needed...

*snipped for space*ST, not even sure how to tell you how much you'll be missed here. You've been a voice of reason so many times. You have this nack of cutting through all the surplus nonsense and getting right to the heart of the matter. I really, really hope you'll come back when things are better. And they will get better :(

:hug:

[IamRedeemed]

A "voice of reason that cuts through the surplus, getting right to the heart of the matter"
That's an interesting pov. I'll have to ponder that awhile.........

[Nadiine]

A "voice of reason that cuts through the surplus, getting right to the heart of the matter"
That's an interesting pov. I'll have to ponder that awhile.........

Well that's the beauty of a point of view... everybody has their personal right to a different view than what someone else might share. :angel:

I saw some decent & fair points - I certainly don't claim perfection in every post I've made here or across the site & most of us can't.... but it looked to just shove all the blame on everybody else :sigh: - I remember a specific thread incident that happened just last week that he was directly involved in that by no means was close to being neutral...
nearly everyone has played a part in this in some way (but I do discount our wonderful peacemakers that mostly stick to fellowshipping and completely stay out of "certain" threads & who don't even take sides in partiality during the "incidents". I believe that they have truly been innocent in all of this). :holy:

[Time2BCounted]

Well that's the beauty of a point of view... everybody has their personal right to a different view than what someone else might share. :angel:

I saw some decent & fair points - I certainly don't claim perfection in every post I've made here or across the site & most of us can't.... but it looked to just shove all the blame on everybody else :sigh: - I remember a specific thread incident that happened just last week that he was directly involved in that by no means was close to being neutral...
nearly everyone has played a part in this in some way (but I do discount our wonderful peacemakers that mostly stick to fellowshipping and completely stay out of "certain" threads & who don't even take sides in partiality during the "incidents". I believe that they have truly been innocent in all of this). :holy:
I agree, ST is putting the blame where it doesnt belong

ST brother, what is your estimation of the leadership of this board? There is a saying to the effect that a place can only be what those in authority make it

[jive4005]

If we would just get the "lead by example" thing, God would work out the rest! He even wants to!

rev

[Time2BCounted]

If we would just get the "lead by example" thing, God would work out the rest! He even wants to!

rev
Amen rev agreed my friend

[IamRedeemed]

Some additional good pov.

I, in no way either believe all my posts are good. I also do not believe the "peacemakers" are innocent bystanders.

I don't believe when something unjust is going on within your sight or earshot, that standing by idly is commendable.

Sometimes sins of "omission" are worse than sins of "commission".

Passivity is what got the world and our country in particular, in the position it is right now.

I used to be shy believe it or not. But God always caused me to muster up guts to come to the defense of those being abused or being treated unjustly starting in grade school. And I was not partial as to whom I would do it for. I would do it for whomever was on that end of the stick. I always made friends with the new kid, so they wouldn't be friendless and feel dejected, as well as the outcasted, sitting in a corner by themselves, having been mistreated by the "cliques" of the class. I never joined cliques. I always hated them. I was on your side, no matter who you were or what you looked like, when you're in the right. Maybe I couldn't stand someone as a person, but if they were right and getting a hassle, I was on their side. When you are right, you're right.

As I grew up of course the causes were different and the issues were bigger. But the "bullies" never change.

In the case here, I also saw the same thing that others here saw. I believe that the blame and the finger pointing were indeed misplaced. If it was due to lack of information, God bless, but they should have cared to research it or remained silent. But to jump into it in the middle, clueless and start taking jabs at people you find annoying, is wrong.

:stepping off my soap box now:

[desmalia]

If we would just get the "lead by example" thing, God would work out the rest! He even wants to!

rev
YUP.
I haven't seen finger pointing have any kind of positive effect here. Taking personal responsibility for our own actions does appear to work wonders. :thumbsup: