Discussion of When Life Begins [Everybody welcome]

[BelindaP]

This is a discussion that I started to have elsewhere, but it didn't go so well. So, I thought it would be a great one to try for our first discussion here. ;)

I've been thinking a lot lately about when life begins. I know that the default position of many Christians is that it begins at conception. However, I think people choose that because they think the Bible is completely silent about the matter, so they go as early as possible.

I don't want this to turn into a discussion about abortion at all. Rather, I'm interested in what others think the Bible says or doesn't say about when life begins. I'll start by posting a verse and then give my thoughts.

Lev. 17:11 (KJV)--For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

Embryos don't have their own blood supply until about a week after implantation. Since that is the case, would it mean that life doesn't really begin until the embryo has it's own blood?

[MrJim]

;) couldn't have found something a little less...sparky to start off with, like the color of the curtains we're gonna hang up around here :D

I'm with the default conception argument on this one, the usual verses you already know by heart from Jeremiah & Psalms.:thumbsup:

As far as the Leviticus/blood idea~hadn't heard it before, but I'd have to go with intent; that is, blood or not, creation is in progress.

[BelindaP]

Hey, when I test a forum, I really test a forum. :P

I know the other verses, but the don't address the when specifically, as far as I can tell.

[MrJim]

Hey, when I test a forum, I really test a forum. :P

I know the other verses, but the don't address the when specifically, as far as I can tell.

It's the mystery of it~a little something I picked up from the Orthodox folks, that it's ok to accept mystery, in this case the mystery of creation.

[Criada]

I go with conception - because that is when the potential to become a human being begins...

Interesting point, tho - hadn't noticed those verses.
But - I think the embryo's own blood develops much later than that - the initial blood supply is maternal...
Not sure when actual foetal blood cells differentiate - have to look that one up.

[£amb]

I also like the verse in Jermiah that MrJim was talking about. How special we are that God already know the purpose to our lives before we are actually flesh and blood. So to me, no matter when the true life begins, God already knows us...:)

*whew...got that controversial subject answered* ;)

[Athene]

I go with implantation purely because not all fertilised eggs are viable, they won't all implant in the womb lining, who knows how many fertilised eggs are shed by sexually active women. But after implantation there is a significant probability that the egg will develop into a baby.

[BelindaP]

Athene, that's interesting, because it is shortly after implantation that an embryo develops its own blood supply.

[Willtor]

Biologically speaking, the embryo is a living thing. It's also a human. Is it a person? Is it alive in a spiritual sense? I think these questions are more difficult to answer. I _don't_ think that the Scriptures were written so that we would know precisely when a sort of spiritual being appears. I think the typical passages used to reference such things are hyperbole to make quite the opposite case from the way they are typically used: God knew me before I was.

However, inasmuch as I have known women to have (what seemed to me) very real spiritual connections to their unborn children, I'd have a difficult time arguing that the spiritual person is not present (at some level) in some very early stages of development.

[BelindaP]

I would agree with you there, having been pregnant. I know it happens pretty early on.

[Lisa0315]

Conception even if the pregnancy is not viable...It is still life. Ectopic pregnancies are still life but it is not murder because there is no chance for survival. When ectopic pregnancies become medically viable, I would consider ending those as murder as well.

Lisa

[BelindaP]

I think the latest an ectopic pregancy (at least one in the tube) has ever been discovered was at about 13-14 weeks. I know it would have been extremely troubling for me to lose one that late :eek:

[Willtor]

I wouldn't jump to murder so quickly. As with any homocide one has to look at individual cases to determine. On the extremes it might be murder vs. justifiable homocide. And there's also a lot of area in between.

[BelindaP]

I don't know that God differentiates one sin from another. It has a lot to do with where your heart is.

[Tenebrae]

Spoke with my sister about egtopic pregnancys and she said, there is almost no chance for the mother to be able to carry the baby to term. (shes an ED Doc)

However wouldnt make it suck any less:sigh::cry:

[Lisa0315]

I wouldn't jump to murder so quickly. As with any homocide one has to look at individual cases to determine. On the extremes it might be murder vs. justifiable homocide. And there's also a lot of area in between.

I have a very strong opinion about abortion. It will be one of the tests for myself to see how well I fit in here. I will not argue the point here, but in that area, I am very, very uber Conservative. Many things, I can see gray areas on, but this isn't one of them. Like I said, not arguing with you about it, just explaining my own position and how I may not be a good fit for this forum. I am here in test mode because I have so many friends who have signed in. I love them and may want to fellowship here, but may not be good member material. Just trying to wait and see.

Lisa

[BelindaP]

That's understandable, Lisa. And I think you'll find that the abortion threads might not be the best place for you to linger. I think that one thing that will make this forum work is if people realize what their views are and avoid discussions where their sensibilities will be harmed or offended.

I'm actually trying to avoid bringing abortion into this particular discussion, because that's not what it's really about. I'm looking for the scriptural basis for when life begins. I know what a lot of people believe on both sides and the logic they use to defend it, but I'm wondering what God has to say about it.

My choosing one verse out the the entire Bible could be taking things way too literally and out of context. So, I'm hoping to see what others think about that, too. At this point, this is a musing and a wondering on my part.

[Lisa0315]

That's understandable, Lisa. And I think you'll find that the abortion threads might not be the best place for you to linger. I think that one thing that will make this forum work is if people realize what their views are and avoid discussions where their sensibilities will be harmed or offended.

I'm actually trying to avoid bringing abortion into this particular discussion, because that's not what it's really about. I'm looking for the scriptural basis for when life begins. I know what a lot of people believe on both sides and the logic they use to defend it, but I'm wondering what God has to say about it.

My choosing one verse out the the entire Bible could be taking things way too literally and out of context. So, I'm hoping to see what others think about that, too. At this point, this is a musing and a wondering on my part.

Oh, I see and I did jump from the beginnings of life to abortion, you are right. They are linked in my mind, and I imagine in everyone elses as well. Sorry about that.

Lisa

[Willtor]

I have a very strong opinion about abortion. It will be one of the tests for myself to see how well I fit in here. I will not argue the point here, but in that area, I am very, very uber Conservative. Many things, I can see gray areas on, but this isn't one of them. Like I said, not arguing with you about it, just explaining my own position and how I may not be a good fit for this forum. I am here in test mode because I have so many friends who have signed in. I love them and may want to fellowship here, but may not be good member material. Just trying to wait and see.

Lisa

No worries if you think my thoughts are stupid and entirely unfounded. Almost certainly, someone here does. Nevertheless, I'm eager to put my thoughts on the table and expose them to collective scrutiny. I hope you will, too (put yours on the table and/or scrutinize my views).

The reason I say what I say is that there are many times that one person kills another person. Sometimes it is justifiable and sometimes it isn't. To the degree that the law is authorized to decide between such things, I don't see it as helpful to say that all abortion is murder unless all homocide under any circumstance is murder.

---

As a side note, if you feel particularly strongly and want to take the level of discussion and dissection up a notch (BAM) there is (or will be) an "Outside" forum here for the purpose of outright debate.

[BelindaP]

No, it's fine. We're just having a discussion and meanderings happen. :hug:

[Lisa0315]

No worries if you think my thoughts are stupid and entirely unfounded. Almost certainly, someone here does. Nevertheless, I'm eager to put my thoughts on the table and expose them to collective scrutiny. I hope you will, too (put yours on the table and/or scrutinize my views).

The reason I say what I say is that there are many times that one person kills another person. Sometimes it is justifiable and sometimes it isn't. To the degree that the law is authorized to decide between such things, I don't see it as helpful to say that all abortion is murder unless all homocide under any circumstance is murder.

---

As a side note, if you feel particularly strongly and want to take the level of discussion and dissection up a notch (BAM) there is (or will be) an "Outside" forum here for the purpose of outright debate.

Well, I think I am here mainly to fellowship for now. We will table the discussion for later. I do look forward to it eventually though.

Lisa

[Rhamiel]

Belenda, I missed you, it is nice to hear from you and Freitag agian.
Interesting topic, I am a Catholic and the Church teaches that life begins at conception, now the Church is not authoritative on science and this is kind of a scientific question, but even if life did not start at conception I think we should act like it does for two reasons
1. better to err on the side of caution when human life is at stake
2 even if life does not start till a little after conception, the embryo would turn into a "live person" under normal situations

[BelindaP]

You make a good argument for why one shouldn't consider even a very early-term abortion. But are there any scriptures to guide the way on when life begins? I guess I should specify that I'm thinking of life beginning when a soul is created for the life being created in the womb.

Btw, scientifically, conception is the beginning of life, because metabolism starts at that point.

[Rhamiel]

I guess I should specify that I'm thinking of life beginning when a soul is created for the life being created in the womb.

I understand, I still go with the Catholic Church on this, either it happens at conception or soon afterwords, someone pointed out how the Orthodox are just ok with it being a mystery, I am cool with that too, but if it is after conception we have to think "well if everything goes normally then this mass of cells will get a soul in like a week and a half" so it is either a person form conception or about to be a person from conception, either way I think it boils down to the same thing for any type of aplication in day to day morals

[Willtor]

You make a good argument for why one shouldn't consider even a very early-term abortion. But are there any scriptures to guide the way on when life begins? I guess I should specify that I'm thinking of life beginning when a soul is created for the life being created in the womb.

Btw, scientifically, conception is the beginning of life, because metabolism starts at that point.

I'd like to distinguish biological and spiritual life, though. For example, (not to sound too callous, but...) I step on bugs all the time. I can't say I do it with any particular pleasure but it certainly doesn't cause me to lose sleep. Biological life - by itself - doesn't entail a moral imperative to protection.

[Lisa0315]

I'd like to distinguish biological and spiritual life, though. For example, (not to sound too callous, but...) I step on bugs all the time. I can't say I do it with any particular pleasure but it certainly doesn't cause me to lose sleep. Biological life - by itself - doesn't entail a moral imperative to protection.

The problem with the animal vs human argument is that the animal never has the potential to be ensouled. When that ensoulment begins, I do not know for sure, but as Rhamiel said, we are far better off to err on the side of life than on the side of death.

Lisa

[Willtor]

The problem with the animal vs human argument is that the animal never has the potential to be ensouled. When that ensoulment begins, I do not know for sure, but as Rhamiel said, we are far better off to err on the side of life than on the side of death.

Lisa

To be sure.

My point is not that one shouldn't be cautious, but that in considering the question of life, I don't think that the biological argument is either sufficient or necessary.

[Rhamiel]

you know what, I think the "I don't know" answer might be the best, as Christians we need to say I don't know more often, we do not know everything, it is the atheist who thinks he has all the answers, we should just say "I don't know" and trust God
Now that is only for theological matters, social matters(like abortion) "I don't know" is not a reason to do something, if you fire a gun into a dark room and if you are asked if it is empty "I don't know" will send you to jail, or if you kill someone you just can not say "well I did not know if the room was empty or not"

[BelindaP]

You do have a point wrt whether a person acts upon their belief that life doesn't begin at conception. I personally would take the conservative view and not interfere with a pregnancy once conception occurs. However, I'm not seeing anything in the scriptures that states it to be the case.

The scripture is very clear that ensoulment happens at some point during fetal development, but, other than the one verse I found, I don't know if it has anything else to say.

Rhamiel, do you know if life beginning at conception is dogma, or is it doctrine?

[Lisa0315]

To be sure.

My point is not that one shouldn't be cautious, but that in considering the question of life, I don't think that the biological argument is either sufficient or necessary.

I respectfully disagree. Because we do not use the medical definiton of life, then, we default to the legal definition of life. The legal definition requires the child to take a breath independently of the mother in order to obtain its own rights. So, in the case of third trimester abortions, the baby is turned so that its legs are delivered first. This is done so that it cannot take a breath and the brain stem is then severed before it can be declared a legal life with rights.

You tell me...does manipulation of the natural birth not constitute murder in these cases? The baby is positioned so that it cannot take its first breath. It is essentially held in the birth canal and its legs held still by the Assisting Nurse so that the abortionist can by legal definition dispose of the non-life.

You tell me.

That same non-life, when in the first days of its conception, if its non-life is taken by someone other than the mother, is considered murder.

So, even the legal definition is manipulated so that socially approved murder can take place.

I told you I was passionate about this subject...

Lisa



Lisa

[BelindaP]

Lisa, dear. *cough, cough*

:hug:

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, dear. *cough, cough*

:hug:

Sorry. It is just about the one subject that I cannot walk away from. I will unsubscribe.

Lisa

[BelindaP]

I know. And God looks upon you with favor for it. The little ones need a strong advocate.

[Rhamiel]

Oh I am almost sure it is a doctrine, because of lack of scripture that talks about it and the lack of talk about it in the early church, it is really a modern issue, this topic only comes up when you have a scientific understanding of pregnancy. there are relitivly few dogmas in the Catholic Church

[Freedom&Light]

I'm not a very scientific soul. It amazes me that we can look inside the womb and see a 3D baby on a monitor. It's impressive.

Life begins inside the womb. It doesn't matter when. I guess that would be fertilization? You see in the Bible how the Lord opens people's wombs- maybe that means implantation? You see, I'm not a scientific person. :)

[BelindaP]

OK. That's what I was wondering about. I have only a small knowledge of the dogmas, etc. of the Catholic church. I suppose I should spend some more time reading up on it, as it interests me. I adhere to sola scriptura, but I believe there is tremendous wisdom in Tradition that often gets left by the wayside by protestants.

[Joykins]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced life does not begin at conception, because life has always been there. Sperm and egg are living cells.

I tend to think a pregnancy begins when implantation takes place.

There is an entire forum to debate abortion, is it necessary to have it out in here?

[BelindaP]

Well, I'm trying very hard not to debate abortion. Just when life begins from a scriptural standpoint.

[Rhamiel]

from my understanding the differance between a dogma and a doctrine is a dogma is more defined and a doctrine is more open to differant understandings, Mary was born without sin is a Dogma, it is very clear. Purgatory is a doctrine, differant people have differant ideas on Purgatory but all catholics believe in Purgatory (or should), then we also have the "pius opinion" these are ideas that theologians and mystics and just about anyone else had that do not go agianst catholic teaching, the idea that people who never heard the gospel or were baptised went to limbo was a pius opinion, although many people treated it as a defacto doctrine. The authenticity of visions falls under pius opinion, a lot of people in the Church, even some Bishops and Popes might believe Saint Joan of Arc(for example) saw a vision of Christ but no one has to believe that the vision was a true vision, although cannonization of saints falls under papal infalibilty, so I can say she did not see a vision of Christ but I can not say she is not a Saint
Don't take my word for any of this, I am sure I got something wrong

[chaoschristian]

This is a discussion that I started to have elsewhere, but it didn't go so well. So, I thought it would be a great one to try for our first discussion here. ;)

I've been thinking a lot lately about when life begins. I know that the default position of many Christians is that it begins at conception. However, I think people choose that because they think the Bible is completely silent about the matter, so they go as early as possible.

I don't want this to turn into a discussion about abortion at all. Rather, I'm interested in what others think the Bible says or doesn't say about when life begins. I'll start by posting a verse and then give my thoughts.

Lev. 17:11 (KJV)--For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

Embryos don't have their own blood supply until about a week after implantation. Since that is the case, would it mean that life doesn't really begin until the embryo has it's own blood?

I don't think scriptures tell us when life begins, or what life is. Our perspective and understanding of the meanings of those terms and questions transcend that of the authors of scriptures.

What scriptures do point towards is the intention of Creation - which is the glorification of God through life. Scriptures also point towards what our intentions towards life should be - we are the stewards of Creation, the stewards of life. Caretakers and viceregents through Christ.

Our understanding of the definition of life is going to evolve over time and is more properly informed by our science than our scripture. But what we do with life is more properly informed by our conscience in God, than it is by our science.

[Willtor]

I respectfully disagree. Because we do not use the medical definiton of life, then, we default to the legal definition of life. The legal definition requires the child to take a breath independently of the mother in order to obtain its own rights. So, in the case of third trimester abortions, the baby is turned so that its legs are delivered first. This is done so that it cannot take a breath and the brain stem is then severed before it can be declared a legal life with rights.

You tell me...does manipulation of the natural birth not constitute murder in these cases? The baby is positioned so that it cannot take its first breath. It is essentially held in the birth canal and its legs held still by the Assisting Nurse so that the abortionist can by legal definition dispose of the non-life.

You tell me.

That same non-life, when in the first days of its conception, if its non-life is taken by someone other than the mother, is considered murder.

So, even the legal definition is manipulated so that socially approved murder can take place.

I told you I was passionate about this subject...

Lisa



Lisa

I'm not sure I'd move to the legal definition, either. After all, I suppose if we are going to move the discussion to abortion that is precisely the definition we should be trying to establish... not the one we use to tell us what to think. Again, neither definition really seems to serve a meaningful purpose in a broader discussion. They're both tuned to their respective focuses.

As to whether abortion constitutes murder, I've already posted what I think.

[BelindaP]

Those who want to discuss abortion need to get their own thread. :P

[Willtor]

Perhaps this Point/Counterpoint (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34210) will help the discussion. The article is a little dated but I think it's still relevant.

[Joykins]

Well, I'm trying very hard not to debate abortion. Just when life begins from a scriptural standpoint.

I don't think that's a question the scriptures are attempting to answer, though.

[BelindaP]

It might not be. That's OK to say, too. After all, I am basing this on just one verse.

[Willtor]

Those who want to discuss abortion need to get their own thread. :P

Sorry. :) I won't say any more about it.

[BelindaP]

S'alright. The two topics are intimately related, so some cross-over is to be expected.

[Joykins]

If you're looking for a scriptural answer, you'll have to start out knowing the assumptions of the culture the scriptures were written for. Did they understand the difference between fertilization or implantation? Or did they believe in homunculi? That's a big difference...

[BelindaP]

Despite the cultural differences, I think that some scriptures are still meant to be applied literally. Many times prophets wrote about things of which that they had little or no understanding.

[Joykins]

What does literally mean in this context? Do you think the scriptures were written in such a way that the people reading it at the time would not understand it properly but people 2000 years later would? Or that the meaning is changeable over time? For example, would the Holy Spirit lead modern people to interpret things in a new way that seem different from earlier people?

[BelindaP]

No. I mean that there are often layers of interpretation. An example would be the Messianic prophecies. I'm sure that the Jews of Jesus' day didn't see Jonah as being a prophecy of Jesus' death and resurrection. And yet it is described as such in the epistles.

Well, I guess that goes with your second option.

It's not that the scripture is changeable as much as revelation through the Holy Spirit continues to this day.

[DailyBlessings]

For me, the whole universe is alive, and has been since God created it. Babies are alive, yes, and so are embryos. So are ova and sperm, and the proteins they are made from, and the animals and veggies that mum and Dad ate while they were growing up. We live in a world filled with beautiful, beautiful life, and I'd rather not devalue the life of any living thing.

[Izdaari]

I don't know when life begins, and I'm not sure that's even the right question to ask. When a clump of cells begins doesn't engage me very much. I'm more concerned about when a human being begins. But I'm not sure that question is even answerable.

[Joykins]

No. I mean that there are often layers of interpretation. An example would be the Messianic prophecies. I'm sure that the Jews of Jesus' day didn't see Jonah as being a prophecy of Jesus' death and resurrection. And yet it is described as such in the epistles.

I would call that a metaphor rather than a prophecy.


Well, I guess that goes with your second option.

It's not that the scripture is changeable as much as revelation through the Holy Spirit continues to this day.

I believe revelation through the Holy Spirit continues today, also. But I also believe it's possible to go to far in interpreting passages without taking context (literary and historical) into account. Perhaps that's what makes me moderate ^_^

[BelindaP]

Prolly. :)

And your comments are good. I'm looking for feedback as to whether I'm stretching things too far or not.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

Belenda, I missed you, it is nice to hear from you and Freitag agian.
Interesting topic, I am a Catholic and the Church teaches that life begins at conception, now the Church is not authoritative on science and this is kind of a scientific question, but even if life did not start at conception I think we should act like it does for two reasons
1. better to err on the side of caution when human life is at stake
2 even if life does not start till a little after conception, the embryo would turn into a "live person" under normal situations
i totally agree with ya!

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

i guess in my opinion..does it really matter if it begins at conception or implantation? they both are before ya even know your pregnant anyway! BTW..is there a 3rd or 4th choice for when life begins? (sorry havent read the whole thread yet)

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

I don't know when life begins, and I'm not sure that's even the right question to ask. When a clump of cells begins doesn't engage me very much. I'm more concerned about when a human being begins. But I'm not sure that question is even answerable.
its NOT answerable...hence why there is always so much debate about it!

therefore..id rather err on the side that promotes life regardless..

[Joykins]

i guess in my opinion..does it really matter if it begins at conception or implantation? they both are before ya even know your pregnant anyway! BTW..is there a 3rd or 4th choice for when life begins? (sorry havent read the whole thread yet)

For moral reasons, if someone believes an individual life begins at fertilization and not implantation, they might not want to use some kinds of birth control that work by inhibiting implantation.

Obviously it's a fine point and relies on information not available to the authors of the Bible.

[Rhamiel]

but even if human life did not begin implantation would it be moral to activly try to stop implantation?

[BelindaP]

Hmmm. I think that's a topic for another thread, but I would say there might be occasions where the morality could be argued.

[Joykins]

but even if human life did not begin implantation would it be moral to activly try to stop implantation?

It's not immoral to stop implantation if there is no individual life to take in the process. Nature does this a whole lot--most fertilized eggs don't implant, and implantation is inhibited by normal activities such as breast-feeding.

[Rhamiel]

nature does a lot of stuff, the human aspect of will would make it differant, I was just posing a question,
as a Catholic I believe that cpntroception is wrong, but I have no logical basis for my belief and it is just faith in the Church, since my basis is only in faith I can not fault others for not agreeing with me since I have no logic to back up my thinking, maybe this is a topic best saved for another thread, I am very happy with how this thread is going and how respectful everyone has been

[BelindaP]

Me, too. Everyone has been simply marvelous.

[Rochir]

well, LIFE itself begins with the ceation of an embryo -- goes for ameoba, eath worm, frog, chicken or human!

The question asked here is where HUMAN INTELIGENT LIFE starts!

And in my mind, it starts at birth!

[Criada]

well, LIFE itself begins with the ceation of an embryo -- goes for ameoba, eath worm, frog, chicken or human!

The question asked here is where HUMAN INTELIGENT LIFE starts!

And in my mind, it starts at birth!
How do you reconcile that with very premature babies who survive, tho?
:scratch;

[JimfromOhio]

When the egg and sperm cleaves, join, merge (conception).

Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?

Isaiah 45:9 Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'?

Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

John 9:3 but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

Psalm 94:9 Does he who implanted the ear not hear? Does he who formed the eye not see?

Psalm 119:73 Your hands made me and formed me; give me understanding to learn your commands.

Isaiah 44:2 This is what the LORD says— he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

Mark 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

[Joykins]

well, LIFE itself begins with the ceation of an embryo -- goes for ameoba, eath worm, frog, chicken or human!

The question asked here is where HUMAN INTELIGENT LIFE starts!

And in my mind, it starts at birth!

I dunno. I've had newborn babies. They don't realize that they control their own hands. ;)

(This is to say I don't think intelligence is actually the criteria that we need to establish)

[Izdaari]

its NOT answerable...hence why there is always so much debate about it!

therefore..id rather err on the side that promotes life regardless..For that reason, though I cannot say I'm a firm "pro-lifer", I have a "pro-life" bias.

[Avatar]

well, LIFE itself begins with the ceation of an embryo -- goes for ameoba, eath worm, frog, chicken or human!

The question asked here is where HUMAN INTELIGENT LIFE starts!

And in my mind, it starts at birth!
No, the question in the OP was simply when does life begin. Glad to see you agree it begins at conception. :)