Justification by faith

[Snowbunny]

hola

i did not know that different denominations of protestants have different (or more nuanced) understandings of 'justification by faith.' i read this book called 'defending the faith' that said baptists and reformed churches have different ideas about the subject because of the lack of calvinism in the baptist denomination. so what do baptists mean by 'justification by faith' ?

gracias

[Hentenza]

Romans 3:21-26
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

[BBAS 64]

hola

i did not know that different denominations of protestants have different (or more nuanced) understandings of 'justification by faith.' i read this book called 'defending the faith' that said baptists and reformed churches have different ideas about the subject because of the lack of calvinism in the baptist denomination. so what do baptists mean by 'justification by faith' ?

gracias

Good Day, Snowbunny

Who is the Author of the book?

Being a "Reformed Baptist" puts me in the firing line so to speak. I will say I attend a independent baptist church, so I can address the other side.

Do to the rise of Finney and his errors, some baptist hold his views on the issue.

Finney :

"Our own works, or obedience to the law or to the gospel, are not the ground or foundation of our justification … These are conditions of our justification… None of these must be omitted upon pain of eternal damnationFinney declare himself: "Our own works, or obedience to the law or to the gospel, are not the ground or foundation of our justification … These are conditions of our justification… None of these must be omitted upon pain of eternal damnation

You will notice the line Finney draws here, conditions vs. foundation. Being a law type Finney draws the line in error as the scriptual record show no condition (obedience) on our part for Justification thus "sola Fide'".


I would recommed Edwards on this issue:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Justification/EdwardsJonathanJustification.htm



The 1689 Baptist Confession states:

CHAP. XI.
Of Justification.

1. Those whom God Effectually calleth, he also freely 193justifieth, not by infusing Righteousness
into them, but by 194pardoning their sins, and by accounting, and accepting their Persons as
195Righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone, not
by imputing faith it self, the act of beleiving, or any other 196evangelical obedience to them, as their
Righteousness; but by imputing Christs active obedience unto the whole Law, and passive obedience
in his death, for their whole and sole Righteousnnss, they 197receiving, and resting on him, and his
Righteousness, by Faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ, and his Righteousness, is the 198alone instrument
of Justification: yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other
saving Graces, and is no dead faith, 199but worketh by love.
3. Christ by his obedience, and death, did fully discharge the debt of all ; and did by the sacrifice
of himself, in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead, the penalty due unto them: make a
proper, real and full satisfaction 200to Gods justice in their behalf: yet in asmuch as he was given
by the Father for them, and his Obedience and Satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both 201freely,
not for any thing in them; their Justification is only of Free Grace, that both the exact justice and
rich Grace of God, might be 202glorified in the Justification of sinners.
4. God did from all eternity decree to 203justifie all the Elect, and Christ did in the fulness of
time die for their sins, and rise 204again for their Justification; Nevertheless they are not justified
personally, untill the Holy Spirit, doth in due time 205actually apply Christ unto them.
5. God doth continue to 206Forgive the sins of , and although they can never fall from the state
of 207justication; yet they may by their sins fall under Gods 208Fatherly displeasure; and in that
condition, they have not usually the light of his Countenance restored unto them, untill they 209humble
themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith, and repentance.
6. The Justification of Believers under the Old Testament was in all these respects, 210one and
the same with the justification of Believers under the New Tement.

193 Rom. 3.24. ch. 8.30.
194 Rom. 4.5,6,7,8. Eph. 1.7.
195 1 Cor. 1.30,31. Rom. 5.17 18,19.
196 Phil. 3.8,9. Eph. 2.8,9,10.
197 Joh. 1.12. Rom. 5.17.
198 Rom. 3.28.
199 Gal. 5.6. Jam. 2.17 22.26.
200 Heb. 10.14. 1 Pet. 1.18,19. Isa. 53.5,6.
201 Rom. 8.32. 2 Cor. 5.21.
202 Rom. 3.26. Eph. 1 6,7. ch. 2.7.
203 Gal. 3.8. 1 Pet. 1.2. 1 Tim. 2.6.
204 Rom. 4.25.
205 Col. 1.21,22. Tit. 3.4,5,6,7.
206 Mat. 6.12. 1 John 1.7.9.
207 Joh. 10 28.
208 Ps. 89.31,32,33.

Hope this helps,

In Him.

Bill

[Snowbunny]

hola Bill!

the author is R.C. Sproul... do you recognize him?

que Dios te bendiga

[arunma]

hola Bill!

the author is R.C. Sproul... do you recognize him?

que Dios te bendiga

Hi Annette. I'm familiar with Dr. Sproul. He's a rather popular Reformed author and theologian among Presbyterians, Reformed Baptists, and other Calvinist Christians. I know he also spoke at last year's Desiring God Conference, which is organized by the pastor of my old college church (Dr. John Piper).

[JohnDB]

Ok...So I am I suppose a Southern Baptist...but I am not a Calvinist.
Definately not.
Mainly the chief principle that we are not "saved" yet...we may speak as though we already are...but in truth...not untill I die am I "saved".

I will give the Calvinist a nod for their support of God's sovereignty...which speaks to God's omnipotence.
But we must have free will...otherwise love is not as genuine...nor grace...and the God that I serve is much better than that...

He can orchestrate a great strategy to bring someone to saving knowledge...but to say that God's veiled Goodness and holiness is irrestistable...too many people have turned it down...

The writer of hebrews as well as Dr. Luke (writer of the third gospel)...to me...have the explanation well underhand...walking away can be done...small babysteps at a time...a slow drifting away...but that doesn't mean that someone can or will intentionally do so...

Southern Baptist are neither Arminian nor are the Calvinist...both polar opposte sides of the theological debate...often unrecognized as the third choice but...

[BBAS 64]

hola Bill!

the author is R.C. Sproul... do you recognize him?

que Dios te bendiga

Aloha, SnowBunny

Yes, I do know of Sproul. I do belive he has a book that covers "faith Alone" have you read that one.

How does RC explain the differance in the book you are reading?

In Him,

Bill

[prgallo]

Hi, I fit the Baptist, non-Calvinist, non-Arminian description. Here is what the church I attend puts into our statement of faith:


Salvation
We believe that the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross provides the sole basis for forgiveness of sins and salvation, which is the free gift of God’s grace. Salvation is affected by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and cannot be secured by man’s works or personal merit. Salvation is only appropriated by a person placing his faith in the finished work of Christ. Repentance is a turning toward God and away from sin and is a part of but not separate from believing faith. “The Gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” and those who receive Jesus Christ by faith are born again, have their sins forgiven, become children of God, are a new creation in Christ, and “are sealed by the Holy spirit unto the day of redemption” being kept by the power of God (Eph. 1:7:13-14; John 1:12-13, 3:1-7, 14-16; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 1:16, 10:9-10; Eph. 2:8-10; Rom. 8:14-17, 31-39; John 10:27-29, 14:6; Acts 26:20; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).To add to that I would say that we believe Chrsitians are saved by grace through faith, not of any works at all.

Ro 12:3 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ro+12:3&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) For (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1063&version=kjv) I say (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=kjv), through (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=kjv) the grace (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5485&version=kjv) given (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1325&version=kjv) unto me, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3427&version=kjv) to every man (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=kjv) that is (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5607&version=kjv) among (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) you, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5213&version=kjv) not (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3361&version=kjv) to think of himself more (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3844&version=kjv) highly (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5252&version=kjv) than (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=kjv) he ought (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1163&version=kjv) to think (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5426&version=kjv); but (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=235&version=kjv) to think (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5426&version=kjv) soberly (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4993&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1519&version=kjv), according as (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5613&version=kjv) God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv) hath dealt (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3307&version=kjv) to every man (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1538&version=kjv) the measure (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3358&version=kjv) of faith. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4102&version=kjv)
Eph 2:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=eph+2:8&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) For (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1063&version=kjv) by grace (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5485&version=kjv) are ye (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2075&version=kjv) saved (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4982&version=kjv) through (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=kjv) faith; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4102&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) that (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) not (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3756&version=kjv) of (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1537&version=kjv) yourselves: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5216&version=kjv) it is the gift (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1435&version=kjv) of God: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)

[Epiphoskei]

i read this book called 'defending the faith' that said baptists and reformed churches have different ideas about the subject because of the lack of calvinism in the baptist denomination. so what do baptists mean by 'justification by faith' ?

There are a significant amount of Reformed Baptists (i.e., Calvinist Baptists. I'm one of them) out there, so you can't differentiate as cleanly between baptist and reformed as it sounds like he is differentiating. I have never noticed a serious distinction between Reformational Theology and non-Calvinistic Baptist beliefs on the matter either.

[WarEagle]

Mainly the chief principle that we are not "saved" yet...we may speak as though we already are...but in truth...not untill I die am I "saved".

John, the Bible says that if you'll repent of your sins and put your faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross, you will be saved today.

The truth is, you just don't know when you'll die and, once you die, your fate is sealed. There is no salvation available after death.

Many years ago, I had a good friend who was a professional hockey player. He came here from Europe to play in the NHL and was very successful. He won all sorts of awards, including the Vezina Trophy, which is the highest award a hockey goalie can win.

He was rich, had fast cars, the fans adored him, girls were all over him.... He was in the prime of life. At his young age, death was the very last thing on his mind.

One night, after having a couple of beers at a local bar, he slammed his car into a retaining wall and was killed. As far as I know, he never repented and put his faith in Christ. I didn't become a Christian until about a year after that incident, so I know I certainly didn't share the Gospel with him.

Except for the very ill, nobody believes that they're going to die but they die every day.

The Bible says that it's appointed unto man once to die, and then to face judgement.

If you're depending on an opportunity for salvation after you die, the Bible is very clear that it doesn't work like that. God gives us every opportunity to repent and put our faith in Christ now, while we're alive and He expects us to take advantage of His gracious offer.

I really hope that you'll think about that and do it today.

[Snowbunny]

hola everyone,

gracias for your responses... oh my, i am very overwhelmed, i think perhaps i asked a question that was a little bit more than i can understand right now, so if you do not mind maybe we could focus on just what the term means...

the confessions and even biblical verses that you quoted to me confused me. perhaps somebody could just explain in plain language what 'justification' means and how it fits in the scheme of salvation... and how it relates to sin and how it is attained through Christ.

correct me if i am wrong but i think i gather that you believe that God created the laws (like deuteronomy), but with Jesus He pressed the 'reset' button because there was so much sin and no way to repent of it. so that now the laws do not matter and the only way to shake off sin is faith in Jesus.

also (since this is related) what does 'faith in Jesus' constitute? is it something that encompasses doing the things Jesus says? or is it your view that if somebody really does believe that is one of the many effects that will naturally occur? i am confused how one could differenciate true faith and lipservice. or in a more complicated scenario, complete faith but a selfish or undisciplined inability to do the things Jesus requires?

sorry if this is confusing, i am trying to process all of this information! for those that asked me how mr sproul differenciated reform and baptist views can we hold off on that for a second? i realize i do not fully understand my own question lol

que Dios te bendiga
annette

[Epiphoskei]

correct me if i am wrong but i think i gather that you believe that God created the laws (like deuteronomy), but with Jesus He pressed the 'reset' button because there was so much sin and no way to repent of it. so that now the laws do not matter and the only way to shake off sin is faith in Jesus.

More precicely, God created laws knowing that we by nature would violate them in order to increase sin so that he might increase grace to us through Jesus Christ.

Moral laws still matter. To say they do not is to be antinomian, and evangelical christians are opposed to antinomianism. Salvation, however, is apart from lawkeeping and penance. We do not need to fix the old creation, we need to be made a new creation.

The function of the law, then, was to foreshadow Christ, and the law of commandments (do not eat, do not touch) was done away with when it was fulfilled in christ. We are not now lawless, however, for morality still remains, and having died to sin, how can we now live in it.

The basic difference between the catholic and protestant view (although some baptists disagree with being called protestant, on issues of justification by faith we all share the same basics, and in my experience this has been the Baptist view as well) is that salvation, faith, and works are rearranged. Faith comes first, and as an immediate result we are a "new creation" with the promise of salvation, and only then come works, which as fruit and evidence of regeneration "justify" us, inasmuch as "I will show you my faith by my works." We do not teach antinomianism, or lawlessness, for righteous works are just as vital here as well. However, they are the vital fruit which comes after, not somthing that comes before.

[mlqurgw]

hola everyone,

gracias for your responses... oh my, i am very overwhelmed, i think perhaps i asked a question that was a little bit more than i can understand right now, so if you do not mind maybe we could focus on just what the term means...

the confessions and even biblical verses that you quoted to me confused me. perhaps somebody could just explain in plain language what 'justification' means and how it fits in the scheme of salvation... and how it relates to sin and how it is attained through Christ.

correct me if i am wrong but i think i gather that you believe that God created the laws (like deuteronomy), but with Jesus He pressed the 'reset' button because there was so much sin and no way to repent of it. so that now the laws do not matter and the only way to shake off sin is faith in Jesus.

also (since this is related) what does 'faith in Jesus' constitute? is it something that encompasses doing the things Jesus says? or is it your view that if somebody really does believe that is one of the many effects that will naturally occur? i am confused how one could differenciate true faith and lipservice. or in a more complicated scenario, complete faith but a selfish or undisciplined inability to do the things Jesus requires?

sorry if this is confusing, i am trying to process all of this information! for those that asked me how mr sproul differenciated reform and baptist views can we hold off on that for a second? i realize i do not fully understand my own question lol

que Dios te bendiga
annetteJustification is a legal term that signifies a not guilty verdict. It has to do with more than just having a debt paid. Let me give you am example that may help: Say I commit a crime and go before the judge. He examines the evidence and I am found guilty because It is clear that I committed the crime. I am guilty. Now I go to prison for 10 years and when I get out my debt to society is paid but i am still guilty. I am not justified. I no longer owe the debt but I am still guilty of comitting a crime. Now to be justified means that I am declared not guilty. It means more than just not having comitted a crime as in being innocent, but to have actually kept the law. To be truly justified you must have kept the law.
It is clear that none of us have done so. We are all lawbreakers and therefore guilty before God the judge. Christ came into the world and acted as a representative subsitute. He stood in our place before the judge and not only paid or debt but also by His imputed, counted as ours, righteousness we are decalred not guilty. It is as though we have never broken the Law but have kept it perfectly. This justification comes to the sinner through faith. In the same way He was made to be sin for us, we are made the righteousness of God in Him. 2Cor. 5:21. Every believer stands before God as though they had perfectly kept the Law. That is what justification is.
The difference between the RCC teaching and Protestant teaching is that the RCC teaches that we are justified by both the righteousness of Christ and our own works while the Protestant believes that we are justified by the righteousnes of Christ alone through faith in Him.
Hope that helps.

[tz620q]

Except for a difference in viewpoint on the efficacy of Baptism, what I have excerpted below from the Catholic Catechism could have been written by any Protestant faith:


I. JUSTIFICATION
1987 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1987.htm');) The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1988.htm');) Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1989.htm');) The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
1990 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1990.htm');) Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1991.htm');) Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1992.htm');) Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1993.htm');) Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
1994 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1994.htm');) Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.
1995 (javascript:openWindow('cr/1995.htm');) The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

[BBAS 64]

Except for a difference in viewpoint on the efficacy of Baptism, what I have excerpted below from the Catholic Catechism could have been written by any Protestant faith:


I. JUSTIFICATION
1987 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1987.htm');) The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1988.htm');) Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1989.htm');) The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
1990 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1990.htm');) Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1991.htm');) Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1992.htm');) Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1993.htm');) Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
1994 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1994.htm');) Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.
1995 (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1995.htm');) The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

Good Day, TZ

You are bound to follow Trent:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.


So, your appeal to your CC is over ridden by the words of Trent.

Sola Fide'

The LBC

Chapter 11: Of Justification

1._____ Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.
( Romans 3:24; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+3:24) Romans 8:30; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+8:30)Romans 4:5-8; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+4:5-8)Ephesians 1:7; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Ephesians+1:7)1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=1Corinthians+1:30-31)Romans 5:17-19; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+5:17-19)Philippians 3:8, 9; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Philippians+3:8-9)Ephesians 2:8-10; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Ephesians+2:8-10)John 1:12; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=John+1:12)Romans 5:17 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+5:17) )

2._____ Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
( Romans 3:28; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+3:28)Galatians 5:6; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Galatians+5:6)James 2:17, 22, 26 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=James+2:17-26) )
3._____ Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf; yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them, their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
( Hebrews 10:14; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Hebrews+10:14)1 Peter 1:18, 19; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=1Peter+1:18-19)Isaiah 53:5, 6; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Isaiah+53:5-6)Romans 8:32; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+8:32)2 Corinthians 5:21; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=2Corinthians+5:21) Romans 3:26; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+3:26)Ephesians 1:6,7; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Ephesians+1:6-7) Ephesians 2:7 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?Ephesians+2:7) )
4._____ God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.
( Galatians 3:8; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Galatians+3:8)1 Peter 1:2; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=1Peter+1:2)1 Timothy 2:6; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=1Timothy+2:6)Romans 4:25; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+4:25)Colossians 1:21,22; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+1:21-22) Titus 3:4-7 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Titus+3:4-7) )
5._____ God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
( Matthew 6:12; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Matthew+6:12)1 John 1:7, 9; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=1John+1:7-9)John 10:28; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=John+10:28)Psalms 89:31-33; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Psalms+89:31-33)Psalms 32:5; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Psalms+32:5)Psalms 51; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Psalms+51)Matthew 26:75 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Matthew+26:75) ) 6._____ The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.
( Galatians 3:9; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Galatians+3:9)Romans 4:22-24 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+4:22-24) )

In Him,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Good day, all

Just desired to add:

Jaroslav Pelikan,

: All the more tragic, therefore, was the Roman reaction on the front which was most important to the reformers, the message and teaching of the church. This had to be reformed according to the word of God; unless it was, no moral improvement would be able to alter the basic problem. Rome’s reactions were the doctrinal decrees of the Council of Trent and the Roman Catechism based upon those decrees. In these decrees, the Council of Trent selected and elevated to official status the notion of justification by faith plus works, which was only one of the doctrines of justification in the medieval theologians and ancient fathers. When the reformers attacked this notion in the name of the doctrine of justification by faith alone—a doctrine also attested to by some medieval theologians and ancient fathers—Rome reacted by canonizing one trend in preference to all the others. What had previously been permitted (justification by faith and works), now became required. What had previously been permitted also (justification by faith alone), now became forbidden. In condemning the Protestant Reformation, the Council of Trent condemned part of its own catholic tradition. Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959), pp. 51-52.



Obedient Rebels: Catholic Substance and Protestant Principle in Luther’s Reformation [New York: Harper and Row, 1964].


“Existing side by side in pre-Reformation theology were several ways of interpreting the righteousness of God and the act of justification. They ranged from strongly moralistic views that seemed to equate justification with moral renewal to ultra-forensic views, which saw justification as a 'nude imputation' that seemed possible apart from Christ, by an arbitrary decree of God. Between these extremes were many combinations; and though certain views predominated in late nominalism, it is not possible even there to speak of a single doctrine of justification.”

In Him,

Bill

[tz620q]

BBAS 64,
Hello, my Brother in Christ,

I was a bit hesitant about posting part of the current Catholic Cathechism on a Baptist forum. So I beg your pardon if this was not appropriate. My motivation for doing this was to try to highlight the similarities between the traditional Protestant view on grace, faith, justifications, and works and the Catholic view on these things. I recognize there are differences, but to say that Catholics believe that justification is by faith and works is to resort to polemics that should have died generations ago. By justification, I mean when one is made righteous, pardoned from sins, and becomes part of the body of Christ. To Catholics, this is the rebirth that starts a new life with Christ. Works come into this after this initial conversion and these are the mark of Christ living in us. As we conform our will to that of Christ's, we become the perfected new creation that God wants us to be.

Does this mean that we have no free will after accepting Christ into our hearts? No, our human fallibility still exists within us. To ignore this would be to create a binary Christianity in which one was either a sinner without Christ or a saint. With the restriction that once one became a Christian, they would never fall away from their faith.

Another alternative is that Christ protects the will of those within his body from corruption? My experience as a Christian is that the more in tune I am to God, the more in tune I am to the adversary as well. Maybe I was blind to both of these voices before, but now they live in the new light. So I would assert that just as Christ was tempted in the desert, we are also called upon to resist temptations. These are not removed from our lifes, but made manifest. They become more than mere urges, but the battlefield upon which our souls depend. Is Christ with us? Assuredly, but does this mean that we can live in assurance that our human will cannot be overcome. Many fallen members in both our denominations would attest that we can be overcome. So our own free will, Adam's bane, becomes our one susceptibility and we use it to choose and perpetuate our imperfections.

Instead of imposing a God-like will within us, like in the first case or covering us with an impenetrable shield as in the second case, a third possibiliity would be if God's gift of grace, once accepted, would irresistibly cause a conversion that would sustain the believer until death and would prevent the believer from ever rejecting God's grace. A good verse to support this would be 1 John 3:9

No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.

But further reading in 1 John shows that John is talking about states of existence and how to obtain them and not in individual absolutes. In 1 John 3;21,22

Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

Here we find the dichotomy of those begotten by God remaining in him and those whose hearts condemn them and lose confidence in God. Are not these hearts our free will exerting itself again against God's grace?

I am sorry this has been such a long post. I wanted to do more than say that Catholic's believe in free will election and rejection as stated in Canon IV in Trent. I hope I have done at least a credible job of explaining why we hold this belief. May God's peace be with you.

[BBAS 64]

BBAS 64,
Hello, my Brother in Christ,

I was a bit hesitant about posting part of the current Catholic Cathechism on a Baptist forum. So I beg your pardon if this was not appropriate. My motivation for doing this was to try to highlight the similarities between the traditional Protestant view on grace, faith, justifications, and works and the Catholic view on these things. I recognize there are differences, but to say that Catholics believe that justification is by faith and works is to resort to polemics that should have died generations ago. By justification, I mean when one is made righteous, pardoned from sins, and becomes part of the body of Christ. To Catholics, this is the rebirth that starts a new life with Christ. Works come into this after this initial conversion and these are the mark of Christ living in us. As we conform our will to that of Christ's, we become the perfected new creation that God wants us to be.

Does this mean that we have no free will after accepting Christ into our hearts? No, our human fallibility still exists within us. To ignore this would be to create a binary Christianity in which one was either a sinner without Christ or a saint. With the restriction that once one became a Christian, they would never fall away from their faith.

Another alternative is that Christ protects the will of those within his body from corruption? My experience as a Christian is that the more in tune I am to God, the more in tune I am to the adversary as well. Maybe I was blind to both of these voices before, but now they live in the new light. So I would assert that just as Christ was tempted in the desert, we are also called upon to resist temptations. These are not removed from our lifes, but made manifest. They become more than mere urges, but the battlefield upon which our souls depend. Is Christ with us? Assuredly, but does this mean that we can live in assurance that our human will cannot be overcome. Many fallen members in both our denominations would attest that we can be overcome. So our own free will, Adam's bane, becomes our one susceptibility and we use it to choose and perpetuate our imperfections.

Instead of imposing a God-like will within us, like in the first case or covering us with an impenetrable shield as in the second case, a third possibiliity would be if God's gift of grace, once accepted, would irresistibly cause a conversion that would sustain the believer until death and would prevent the believer from ever rejecting God's grace. A good verse to support this would be 1 John 3:9

No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.

But further reading in 1 John shows that John is talking about states of existence and how to obtain them and not in individual absolutes. In 1 John 3;21,22

Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

Here we find the dichotomy of those begotten by God remaining in him and those whose hearts condemn them and lose confidence in God. Are not these hearts our free will exerting itself again against God's grace?

I am sorry this has been such a long post. I wanted to do more than say that Catholic's believe in free will election and rejection as stated in Canon IV in Trent. I hope I have done at least a credible job of explaining why we hold this belief. May God's peace be with you.


Good Day, TZ

Over all I believe you have, I do not desire to spilt hairs with you.

I do belive that Ott does a great job as well...

Ludwig Ott
The God–Man Jesus Christ, by His vicarious atonement and His merit in the Redemption, achieved the reconciliation of humanity with God in principle and objectively. The Objective Redemption must be accepted by each man so that thereby he may bring to fruition in himself the subjective Redemption. The act of the application of the fruits of the Redemption to the individual man is called Justification...or Sanctification...The fruit of the Redemption is called grace...In the working-out of man’s Subjective Redemption, God supports man, not merely by an inner principle, grace, but also by an outward principle, the efficacy of the Church in its doctrine, its guidance of men and its work of dispensing the grace of Christ through the Sacraments.
Habitual grace is a constant supernatural quality of the soul which sanctifies man intrinsically and makes him just and pleasing to God. According to the teaching of the Council of Trent, ‘no one can be just to whom the merits of Christ’s Passion have not been communicated.’...It is a fundamental doctrine of St. Paul that salvation can be acquired only by the grace merited by Christ.
As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of (supernatural) good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man...By his good works the justified man really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from God...A just man merits for himself through each good work an increase in sanctifying grace, eternal life (if he dies in a state of grace) and an increase of heavenly glory (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), Book Four, Part I, p.219; 3.5, p. 222; Book III, Part 2, Chapter 2.III.11.3, p. 190; Book IV, Section 2, Chapter 3.23.2, 3.25.1, pp. 264, 267).

1074. What is habitual or sanctifying grace?
Habitual or sanctifying grace is a supernatural quality that dwells in the human soul, by which a person shares in the divine nature, becomes a temple of the Holy Spirit, a friend of God, his adopted child, an heir to the glory of heaven, and able to perform actions meriting eternal life (John Hardon, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (Garden City: Image, 1981).

I think this will help to "fill-out" your post for those who may be reading along.

Thanks for the discussion!

In Him,

Bill