Orthodox understanding of Original Sin and R.C. Dogma of the Immaculate Conception

[MariaRegina]

Since this seems to be a perennial question that repeatedly is misunderstood, what are the opinions of the Church Fathers about Original Sin.

How did the 1850 Roman Catholic Dogma of the Immaculate Conception come about?

What does the Orthodox Church teach about Original Sin, the Ancestral Curse, and the sinlessness of the Theotokos?

[MariaRegina]

http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=8325121#post8325121

Here is a thread that has some great posts regarding Original Sin.

[SeraphimSarov]

I thought the IC was dogmatized due to a Marian apparition where she supposedly called herself the immaculate conception.

[Thekla]

a reference link to an article by the late Fr. J. Romanides


http://romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm

[buzuxi02]

Both the IC and the Assumption of Mary are the only "officially" vatican recognized dogmas made "ex cathedra" under the papal infallibility guise. All three are intertwined.

First the Immaculate Conception was pronounced in 1854. This was not fully recieved because many were not sure if it was official Tradition. Under the same Pope in 1870 ,was established the dogma of papal infallibility. Thus the IC became official to all.

The Assumption is simply a consequence of the IC dogma. No longer did the Apostolic Tradition about Mary's death apply and even the ancient icon of the Dormition was problematic. So the Assumption defined Marys translation apart from the ancient tradition of the Church. Mary's death was intentionally left "vague" in the definition, which could be interpreted by the individiual, whether she fell asleep or not.

[marvmax]

I think I'm starting to understand the acronyms.

IC=Immaculate Conception...right?

So as I understand it the EOC doesn't buy into IC because of their understanding of Original Sin. They do however believe in the IC. Is that right?

I hope you don't mind my asking these questions, just so I can follow any debate that might follow.

[Mary of Bethany]

I think I'm starting to understand the acronyms.

IC=Immaculate Conception...right?

So as I understand it the EOC doesn't buy into IC because of their understanding of Original Sin. They do however believe in the IC. Is that right?

I hope you don't mind my asking these questions, just so I can follow any debate that might follow.

As typed, the part I bolded doesn't make sense. Did you mean "They do however believe in the Assumption"?

If so, the answer is yes - sort of. We call it the Dormition (the falling asleep) of Mary. We believe she died, then her body was taken (Assumed) to Heaven. The RC allows for understanding the Assumption as taking place before death.

Mary

[marvmax]

As typed, the part I bolded doesn't make sense. Did you mean "They do however believe in the Assumption"?

If so, the answer is yes - sort of. We call it the Dormition (the falling asleep) of Mary. We believe she died, then her body was taken (Assumed) to Heaven. The RC allows for understanding the Assumption as taking place before death.

Mary
Yes that is what I meant.:blush: Thanks for understanding what I think I thought I meant.

Oh yeah thanks for the explanation also.

[Knowledge3]

Since this seems to be a perennial question that repeatedly is misunderstood, what are the opinions of the Church Fathers about Original Sin.

How did the 1850 Roman Catholic Dogma of the Immaculate Conception come about?

Most likely, it was the official response of the Roman Catholic Church to announce the Immaculate Conception due to combination of factors. In part, there is the 'supposed' divine revelation of an apparition of Mary to a Catholic saint named Bernadette. And the other factor is that due to certain theological disputes and controversies Pope Pius IX had officially announced the IC as dogma in order to clarify the position of the Catholic Church concerning Mary in response to the Augustinian doctrine of 'Original Sin'.

What does the Orthodox Church teach about Original Sin, Ancestral Sin , and the sinlessness of the Theotokos?


a) 'Original Sin' is not relevant in Eastern Orthodoxy. Primarily, because it is -out of sync- so to speak, with the doctrinal praxis of Eastern theology.

b) Ancestral Sin is the doctrine of sin related to the historic Fall as taught by the Fathers of Church. Adam transgressed and fell from his original state of being with God, and thus humanity inherits and develops a sin nature due to this fact. Thus, common humanity is imperfect because of sin.

c) There is no 'official' teaching other than a recent declaration by the OCA synod of bishops.

. . .

[orthros]

PEACE.....REGARDING THE ASSUMPTION OF THE MARY.....I ALWAYS FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT IT WAS NAMED "ASSUMPTION" - AS IN "ASSUMING".....I AM CATHOLIC SEARCHING INTO ORTHODOXY! WHILE I HAVE NO PROBLEM BELIEVING THAT PEOPLE CAN HAVE SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES THAT INCLUDE VISITATIONS AND CONVERSATIONS FROM HEAVEN, I AM NOT COMFORTABLE TURNING THEM INTO DOGMAS.
WHY AFTER ALL THESE HUNDREDS OF YEARS WOULD THE POPE WANT TO TRY TO UNITE WITH ORTHODOX? BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS IN A LOT OF SERIOUS TROUBLE! GOD BLESS, "orthros":crosseo:

[MariaRegina]

Most likely, it was the official response of the Roman Catholic Church to announce the Immaculate Conception due to combination of factors. In part, there is the 'supposed' divine revelation of an apparition of Mary to a Catholic saint named Bernadette. And the other factor is that due to certain theological disputes and controversies Pope Pius IX had officially announced the IC as dogma in order to clarify the position of the Catholic Church concerning Mary in response to the Augustinian doctrine of 'Original Sin'.




a) 'Original Sin' is not relevant in Eastern Orthodoxy. Primarily, because it is -out of sync- so to speak, with the doctrinal praxis of Eastern theology.

b) Ancestral Sin is the doctrine of sin related to the historic Fall as taught by the Fathers of Church. Adam transgressed and fell from his original state of being with God, and thus humanity inherits and develops a sin nature due to this fact. Thus, common humanity is imperfect because of sin.

c) There is no 'official' teaching other than a recent declaration by the OCA synod of bishops.

. . .

Knowledge, I do not know if you meant to do this ...

But you have misquoted me.

I used the word ANCESTRAL CURSE. Go an check the OP, okay.

Thanks.

[MariaRegina]

PEACE.....REGARDING THE ASSUMPTION OF THE MARY.....I ALWAYS FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT IT WAS NAMED "ASSUMPTION" - AS IN "ASSUMING".....I AM CATHOLIC SEARCHING INTO ORTHODOXY! WHILE I HAVE NO PROBLEM BELIEVING THAT PEOPLE CAN HAVE SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES THAT INCLUDE VISITATIONS AND CONVERSATIONS FROM HEAVEN, I AM NOT COMFORTABLE TURNING THEM INTO DOGMAS.
WHY AFTER ALL THESE HUNDREDS OF YEARS WOULD THE POPE WANT TO TRY TO UNITE WITH ORTHODOX? BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS IN A LOT OF SERIOUS TROUBLE! GOD BLESS, "orthros":crosseo:

Please go an attend the Vespers service for the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos. We as Orthodox Christians honor the Theotokos as ever virgin, and most pure and the Mother of our God. In the Vespers service you will see that we reference her death, burial, and the assumption into heaven. It is not fitting that her body sanctified by being a Temple of God where the Christ Child dwelt should see corruption.

So, the readings tell of her death and burial. Then three days later St. Thomas finally arrives. He was late witnessing the Resurrection of Christ too. He asks to venerate her body one more time. So they take him to the tomb and her body is not there. She appears to him and tells him that she was assumed into heaven.