Good Question!

[Lisa0315]

I just saw this!

Why did Jesus ask the names of the demons known as Legion? :scratch: Does anyone know?

Mark 5:1-20 1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
Lisa

[Colabomb]

I don't know. Perhaps to show authority. He so much as asks its name and it is forced to reply.

That's just a guess I admit.

[Colabomb]

It could also have to do with the fact that Jesus was a man, and simply did not know.

He lowered himself down at the incarnation. He temporarily lost his omniscience.

[Hentenza]

Well, Jesus certainly knew the demons name. Something to consider is that He probably asked the name of the demon to show the horrible state that this man was in. A legion back then was comprised of around 6000 men. This guy must have really been hurting.

What tremendous power of deliverance does our Savior have!!!!!!:clap::clap::amen:

[Lisa0315]

Well, Jesus certainly knew the demons name. Something to consider is that He probably asked the name of the demon to show the horrible state that this man was in. A legion back then was comprised of around 6000 men. This guy must have really been hurting.

What tremendous power of deliverance does our Savior have!!!!!!:clap::clap::amen:

Wow! 6000! Boggles the mind!

Keep 'em coming!

Lisa

[MrJim]

I seem to remember something about demons identifying themselves before exorcisms can happen...but that might just be from a bad movie :sorry:

[HisKid1973]

Authority...like was said

[Tangeloper]

I seem to remember something about demons identifying themselves before exorcisms can happen...but that might just be from a bad movie :sorry:
LOL Mr. Jim... I remember something similar as well. That in order to cast out the demon it must be addressed by name, but then I am not a student in exorcism... Just a former Catholic! ;)

[GreenMunchkin]

I don't know. Perhaps to show authority. He so much as asks its name and it is forced to reply.

That's just a guess I admit.I like this answer. It clicks somehow :scratch:

[Lisa0315]

I agree, the authority and power, is the best answer so far. I am wondering if there is something in Jewish history/customs that would shed some light on this as well. That may be where the Caths are getting the calling the name out thingie. Alot of their traditions are very Jewish in origin.

Lisa

[Lisa0315]

Caths are the bomb diggity. Notice the demon cries out Jesus name and adjures Him in reverance and submission. Jesus uses the other form of adjuration of authority and power!

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01142c.htm
Adjuration


(Latin adjurare, to swear; to affirm by oath (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/11176a.htm)). An urgent demand made upon another to do something, or to desist from doing something, which demand is rendered more solemn and more irresistible by coupling with it the name of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/06608a.htm) or of some sacred person (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/11726a.htm) or thing. Such, too, was the primitive use of the word. In its theological (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/14580x.htm) acceptation, however, adjuration never carries with it the idea (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/07630a.htm) of an oath (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/11176a.htm), or the calling upon God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/06608a.htm) to witness (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/15677a.htm) to the truth (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/15073a.htm) of what is asserted. Adjuration is rather an earnest appeal, or a most stringent command requiring another to act, or not to act, under pain of divine visitation (http://www.newadvent.org/#) or the rupture of the sacred ties of reverence and love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/09397a.htm). Thus, when Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm) was silent (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/13790a.htm) in the house of Caiphas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03143b.htm), answering nothing to the things that were witnessed (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/15677a.htm) against Him, the High Priest (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12407b.htm) would force Him to speak and so said to Him: "I adjure Thee by the living God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/06608a.htm), that Thou tell us if Thou be the Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/10212c.htm) the Son of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/14142b.htm)." (Matthew 26:63 (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/bible/mat026.htm#63)) Adjuration may be either deprecatory or imprecatory. The one implies deference, affection, reverence, or prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12345b.htm); the other, authority, command, or menace. The one may be addressed to any rational (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12673b.htm) creature except the demon (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04710a.htm); the other can be addressed only to inferiors and the demon (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04710a.htm). In Mark (v, 7) the man with the unclean spirit cast himself at the feet of Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm) saying: "What have we to do with Thee Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm) the Son of the Most High God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/14142b.htm)? I adjure Thee that Thou torment me not." The wretched man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/09580c.htm) recognized that Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm) was his superior, and his attitude was that of humility (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/07543b.htm) and petition. Caiphas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03143b.htm), on the contrary, fancied himself vastly superior to the Prisoner before him. He stood and commanded Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm) to declare Himself under pain of incurring the wrath of Heave. It is hardly necessary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/10733a.htm) to insist that one mode of adjuration is to be employed when addressing the Deity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04683a.htm) and quite another when dealing with the powers of darkness. Helpless man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/09580c.htm), calling upon Heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/07170a.htm) to assist him, adds weight to his naked words by joining with them the persuasive names of those whose deeds and virtues (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/15472a.htm) are written in the Book of Life. No necessity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/10733a.htm) is thereby laid upon the Almighty, and no constraint save that of benevolence and love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/09397a.htm). But when the spirit of darkness is to be adjured, it is never allowable to address him in the language of peace and friendship. Satan (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04764a.htm) must ever be approached as man's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/09580c.htm) eternal (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05551b.htm) enemy. He must be spoken to in the language of hostility and command. Nor is there aught of presumption (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12403a.htm) in such treatment of the evil (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05649a.htm) one. It were indeed egregious temerity for man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/09580c.htm) to cope single-handed with the devil (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04764a.htm) and his ministers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/10326a.htm), but the name of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/06608a.htm), reverently invoked, carries with it an efficacy which demons (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04710a.htm) are unable to withstand. Nor should it be supposed that adjuration implies disrespect for the Almighty. If it is allowable to invoke the adorable name of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/06608a.htm) in order to induce others to build more securely upon our world, it must be equally permissible to make use of the made means in order to impel others to action. Indeed, when used under due conditions (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04211a.htm), that is "in truth (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/15073a.htm), in justice (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08571c.htm), and in judgment", adjuration is a positive act of religion, for it presupposes on the part of the speaker faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05752c.htm) in God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/06608a.htm) and his superintending Providence, as well as an acknowledgment that He is to be reckoned with in the manifold affairs of life. What more beautiful form of prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12345b.htm) that that of the litany (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/09286a.htm), wherein we beg immunity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/07690a.htm) from evil (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05649a.htm) through the Advent (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/01165a.htm), the Birth, the Fasting (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05789c.htm), the Cross, the Death and Burial, the Holy Resurrection (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12789a.htm), and the wonderful Ascension (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/01767a.htm) of the Second Person (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm) of the Blessed Trinity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/15047a.htm)? Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm) Himself recommends this form of invocation: "Whatsoever you shall ask the Father in My name, that will I do: that the Father may be Glorified in the Son" (John 14:13 (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/bible/joh014.htm#13)). Acting (http://www.newadvent.org/#) upon this promise, the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03744a.htm) sends all her more solemn prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12345b.htm) with the adjuration: Per Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum (Through Our Lord Jesus Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm)). St. Thomas declares that the words of Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm), "in My name that shall cast out devils (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04764a.htm)" (Mark 16:17 (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/bible/mar016.htm#17)) give all believing (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/02408b.htm) Christians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03712a.htm) warrant to adjure the spirit of evil (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05649a.htm). This, however, must not be done out of mere curiosity, for vainglory, or for any other unworthy motive. According to Acts (xix, 12) St. Paul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/11567b.htm) was successful in casting out wicked spirits (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/14220b.htm), whereas the Jewish (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08399a.htm) exorcists (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05711a.htm), using magic arts purporting to come from Solomon, "attempted to invoke over them that had evil spirits (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04710a.htm), the name of the Lord Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm), saying: 'I conjure you by Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08374c.htm), whom Paul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/11567b.htm) preaches,'" were leaped upon and overcome by those possessed, in such sort that they found it convenient "to flee out of that house, naked and wounded." In adjuring the demon (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04710a.htm) one may bid him depart in the name of the Lord, or in such other language as faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05752c.htm) and piety (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12748a.htm) may suggest; or he may drive him forth by the formal and fixed prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/12345b.htm) of the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03744a.htm). The first manner, which is free to all Christians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03712a.htm), is called private adjuration. The second, which is reserved to the ministers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/10326a.htm) of the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03744a.htm) alone, is called solemn. Solemn adjuration, or adjuration properly so called, corresponds to the Greek exorkismos. It properly means an expelling of the evil (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05649a.htm) one. In the Roman Ritual (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/13088b.htm) there are many forms of solemn adjuration. These are to be found, notably, in the ceremony (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03538b.htm) of baptism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/02258b.htm). One is pronounced over the water, another over the salt (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/13403b.htm), while many are pronounced over the child. Manifold and solemn as are the adjurations pronounced over the catechumen (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03430b.htm) in baptism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/02258b.htm), those uttered over the possessed are more numerous and, if possible, more solemn. This ceremony (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/03538b.htm), with its rubrics (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/13216a.htm), takes up thirty pages of the Roman Ritual (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/13088b.htm). It is, however, but rarely used, and never without the express permission of the bishop (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/02581b.htm), for there is room for no end of deception and hallucination when it is question of dealing with the unseen powers. (See BAPTISM; DEVIL (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/04764a.htm); EXORCISM (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05709a.htm).)

[Colabomb]

I seem to remember something about demons identifying themselves before exorcisms can happen...but that might just be from a bad movie :sorry:

Actually the Exorcist was a great movie, except for the unrealistic ending.

The Exorcism was very realistic.

Yes, people have even been known to throw up as an insult to the priest/minister/exorcist

[Simon_Templar]

It could also have to do with the fact that Jesus was a man, and simply did not know.

He lowered himself down at the incarnation. He temporarily lost his omniscience.

I would have to disagree with you on this Cola.


In answer to the OP, I am not certain enough myself to say "this is it" but this is what comes to mind.
In most ancient cultures it was believed that knowing a being's true name gave you authority or power over that being. This idea is common place in the beliefs of most of the ancient middle eastern cultures, and as far afield as the Celts.

This idea is also present in Jewish thought, which is one of the reasons the true name of God is never spoken etc.

Though the idea of the true name granting power over the being may be somewhat superstitious, or incomplete at least... it is also clear in the bible that authority is directly attached to names.

Speaking legitimately in the name of a ruler carries the authority of that ruler. We have authority by the name of Jesus etc.

However you slice it, names are very important in ancient culture, and also in the bible. Names were often prophetic in the bible as well.

Jesus did indicate to his disciples that some different kinds of demons were harder to cast out than others. This occured in an incident when the disciples could not cast out a demon. Jesus chided them for their lack of faith, but also told them, "this kind only comes out by prayer and fasting."
It is possible that the particular band of demons inhabiting this man had such a firm hold that they could not be dislodged without using their name to some how more directly apply God's authority and power to them.

[Indrid Cold]

I will give the only semblance of an answer I gave in the SW board:

"My name is Legion, for we are many . . . "

welcome to the world of evil spirits - they go from singular to plural very quickly - I don't have time to get into why - but the spiritual world does not play by our rules.

[PenelopePitstop2]

I believe you can see it another way. Jesus intended to address the man in asking his name. But this man in his demonic state was so overtaken by the demons that they continued to speak through him and gave their name.He had lost any control long ago and was utterly inhabited and controlled.

Jesus I believe was trying to reassure the man who had fallen at his feet that he wanted to help him and set him free. This guy had hidden himself in the tombs and was in agony, tortured by his situation, cutting himself and crying out alone in his torment. Did he dare to believe that Jesus came to help him when he was rejected and cast out by men and left to his misery. So I think yes, Jesus was trying to reassure him that his intent was of kindness and compassion.

I also think Jesus wanted his disciples and us reading the word to understand how bad the man's condition was, a legion varied in the military sense and was between 3 and 6 thousand. Jews used it often to describe a large number of things, like say, a legion of grapes. So the point was, even though this man's condition seemed impossible with Christ all things are possible.

I don't believe you need to speak to demons and find out names per se. And Jesus operating in the anointing of God would have discerned the names anyway. Just my humble opinion anyway. Bless you Lisa

[Lisa0315]

I believe you can see it another way. Jesus intended to address the man in asking his name. But this man in his demonic state was so overtaken by the demons that they continued to speak through him and gave their name.He had lost any control long ago and was utterly inhabited and controlled.

Jesus I believe was trying to reassure the man who had fallen at his feet that he wanted to help him and set him free. This guy had hidden himself in the tombs and was in agony, tortured by his situation, cutting himself and crying out alone in his torment. Did he dare to believe that Jesus came to help him when he was rejected and cast out by men and left to his misery. So I think yes, Jesus was trying to reassure him that his intent was of kindness and compassion.

I also think Jesus wanted his disciples and us reading the word to understand how bad the man's condition was, a legion varied in the military sense and was between 3 and 6 thousand. Jews used it often to describe a large number of things, like say, a legion of grapes. So the point was, even though this man's condition seemed impossible with Christ all things are possible.

I don't believe you need to speak to demons and find out names per se. And Jesus operating in the anointing of God would have discerned the names anyway. Just my humble opinion anyway. Bless you Lisa

Well, with all Scripture there is such richness and depths, that likely most of the theories here are correct. It is a good one to study. I certain never even noticed that Jesus ASKED the names of the demons.

I mean, I know, He KNEW already but it was curious that Jesus did that. I do think the key is in the word adjure. It is almost like a Spiritual Rules of Warfare thing. I don't know how to explain that exactly.

Kind of like when a prisoner of war can only give his name, rank and seriel number.

The demon adjured by acknowleging Christ as God. Jesus adjured by recognizing one of His subjects. It seems to be quite protocol-ish.

Lisa

[No Swansong]

I just saw this!

Why did Jesus ask the names of the demons known as Legion? :scratch: Does anyone know?

Mark 5:1-20 1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
Lisa
I have read a Catholic source somewhere that this does not indicate that Jesus didn't know their names but that he had them reveal themselves so that those who did not believe in Demons might see that they do in fact exist.

Can't remember the reference and it was over 20 years ago so take it for what it is worth.

[KarenJoy]

Well, Jesus certainly knew the demons name. Something to consider is that He probably asked the name of the demon to show the horrible state that this man was in. A legion back then was comprised of around 6000 men. This guy must have really been hurting.

What tremendous power of deliverance does our Savior have!!!!!!:clap::clap::amen:

:amen:

This Gospel account is one of many which shows how Jesus sees and and deals with the power of the enemy which has tormented this individual. This story shows me that Jesus does not compromise but delivers this man, from the destructive power of evil.

And because Jesus is the same 'Yesterday, Today, and Forever (Hebrews 13:8), He still works the same today.

[Indrid Cold]

For nuts and bolts - there is a lot going on there, but as the very astute Simon_Templar said - it has a lot to do with the perception of the apostles - I think that instead of the author of the gospel using it as an example of early thought on how evil spirits behave, Jesus reversed it and gave them insight into a much more heinous aspect of their world. No longer would they beleive (if they did) in myth, they will see the Messiah as He truly is - and what he can do, and the scope of what they are dealing with.

They were utterly helpless and depending on Christ here - they were Jews standing in a graveyard (death) dealing with demons, ina land of Gentiles, near a bunch of pigs, etc. What does that spell for a Jew? UNCLEAN. Yet Jesus, boldly goes and sanctifies that ground that he stands upon, and demonstrates Himself. They were helpless, and yet relied on Him entirely here - sound familiar?

[Lisa0315]

For nuts and bolts - there is a lot going on there, but as the very astute Simon_Templar said - it has a lot to do with the perception of the apostles - I think that instead of the author of the gospel using it as an example of early thought on how evil spirits behave, Jesus reversed it and gave them insight into a much more heinous aspect of their world. No longer would they beleive (if they did) in myth, they will see the Messiah as He truly is - and what he can do, and the scope of what they are dealing with.

They were utterly helpless and depending on Christ here - they were Jews standing in a graveyard (death) dealing with demons, ina land of Gentiles, near a bunch of pigs, etc. What does that spell for a Jew? UNCLEAN. Yet Jesus, boldly goes and sanctifies that ground that he stands upon, and demonstrates Himself. They were helpless, and yet relied on Him entirely here - sound familiar?

Awesome!!! Praise God!

Lisa

[Latreia]

It was my impression that the Scriptures would teach the denial of "demon power" and the repulsion of the devil.

It seems to me that dwelling upon the subject of demonology and attempts to merge it into the basis of Christianity is a way to totally negate the saving grace that Jesus brought to us.

Why seek to further empower the darkness rather than staying in the Light?

Just because Jesus had the power over demons by calling them by name does not necessarily follow that Christians should make it a point to know all the names of demons and study all the ways of the devil's minions.

That evil path is one that Christians are able to avoid because of our Saviour's power and grace.

When the devil is studied and investigated, that seems to imply that we are fascinated with dark powers.

Remember, all the devil has to do is get your attention and get you to listen to him,
Much easier for him to get at your soul.

Thank you for this thread that I may voice my own opinions.

[Lisa0315]

It was my impression that the Scriptures would teach the denial of "demon power" and the repulsion of the devil.

It seems to me that dwelling upon the subject of demonology and attempts to merge it into the basis of Christianity is a way to totally negate the saving grace that Jesus brought to us.

Why seek to further empower the darkness rather than staying in the Light?

Just because Jesus had the power over demons by calling them by name does not necessarily follow that Christians should make it a point to know all the names of demons and study all the ways of the devil's minions.

That evil path is one that Christians are able to avoid because of our Saviour's power and grace.

When the devil is studied and investigated, that seems to imply that we are fascinated with dark powers.

Remember, all the devil has to do is get your attention and get you to listen to him,
Much easier for him to get at your soul.

Thank you for this thread that I may voice my own opinions.

Latria, No one here is doing that. I came across a curiosity in Scripture that I had never thought about before. There is nothing wrong in trying to understand the richness and deepness there. It was actually great encouragement to me to read the responses and do the study.

Lisa

[Father Rick]

The case of Legion is the only place in scripture that shows more than one demonic spirit oppressing a person.

I personally believe that the reason Jesus asked the name of Legion (Legion was a military term for a group of 4,000 - 6,000 soldiers... like "platoon", or "squadron") was to illustrate that one can have more than demonic spirit.

[nyj]

It could also have to do with the fact that Jesus was a man, and simply did not know.

Jesus was 100% God & 100% Man.

[Colabomb]

Jesus was 100% God & 100% Man.



OF course he is, but frankly none of us fully understands the hyperstatic union, and we all make gaffs.

I could have been mistaken, i dunno.

[Latreia]

Jesus was 100% God & 100% Man.


Excuse me, I just thought all conservative Christians held that belief,

From the CCC Statement of Belief:

http://foru.ms/t6036184-conservative-christian-statement-of-beliefs-and-rules-09-04-07.html

God is triune. God has revealed Himself in three co-equal and co-eternal persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God.

:amen:

[Colabomb]

Excuse me, I just thought all conservative Christians held that belief,

From the CCC Statement of Belief:

http://foru.ms/t6036184-conservative-christian-statement-of-beliefs-and-rules-09-04-07.html

God is triune. God has revealed Himself in three co-equal and co-eternal persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God.

:amen:
we all do, i dont understand your question.

[Colabomb]

I of course admit I often make theological mistakes. From what everyone has told me so far, it appears I was wrong.

[Lisa0315]

I of course admit I often make theological mistakes. From what everyone has told me so far, it appears I was wrong.

We all do. The difference is that some admit it and some do not.

None of us have it 100% correct.

Lisa

[Latreia]

we all do, i dont understand your question.

Actually, it was not a question, it was a reminder of conservative statement.

Originally Posted by ColaBomb
It could also have to do with the fact that Jesus was a man, and simply did not know

[Epiphanygirl]

I agree, the authority and power, is the best answer so far. I am wondering if there is something in Jewish history/customs that would shed some light on this as well. That may be where the Caths are getting the calling the name out thingie. Alot of their traditions are very Jewish in origin.

Lisa
:thumbsup: You are quite right on this Lisa, but maybe one of our Catholic brethren who has books on Exorcism could give more detail about it......

[Colabomb]

Actually, it was not a question, it was a reminder of conservative statement.

Originally Posted by ColaBomb
It could also have to do with the fact that Jesus was a man, and simply did not know

Jesus is a man. Jesus is God. I never denied the Divinity of Christ.

The whole point is it is difficult to understand how that works, and I made a mistake. The Hyperstatic union is an extremely difficult doctrine, and none of us can pretend to understand it perfectly.

Stop looking for heresy where it doesn't exist. I have been lobbying for the very existence of this forum for almost as long as you have been a member, so please don't try to lecture me on what conservatism is.

If you want to question my orthodoxy we can go there. I would prefer we just chalk it up to a simple misunderstanding.

[Lisa0315]

:thumbsup: You are quite right on this Lisa, but maybe one of our Catholic brethren who has books on Exorcism could give more detail about it......

I found it in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I posted it here awhile back. It was very interesting.

Lisa

[Latreia]

Jesus is a man. Jesus is God. I never denied the Divinity of Christ.

The whole point is it is difficult to understand how that works, and I made a mistake. The Hyperstatic union is an extremely difficult doctrine, and none of us can pretend to understand it perfectly.

Stop looking for heresy where it doesn't exist. I have been lobbying for the very existence of this forum for almost as long as you have been a member, so please don't try to lecture me on what conservatism is.

If you want to question my orthodoxy we can go there. I would prefer we just chalk it up to a simple misunderstanding.

Excuse me, but now you are calling in all the externals that support you, which is not at all what I could have known.

I merely replied to your comment:

Originally Posted by ColaBomb
It could also have to do with the fact that Jesus was a man, and simply did not know

And that was all I knew at that time.
When you post such a statement, do
also demand that others may not try to respond to it?

Suddenly, you reprimand me with all kinds of facts not discenable from those few words. You call my quoting a few words from the statement of this forum a whole lecture that challenges your orthodoxy?

Heresy is a strong word, it should be saved for very serious application.

At least be fair, if you can't be charitable.

:sigh:

[Father Rick]

:thumbsup: You are quite right on this Lisa, but maybe one of our Catholic brethren who has books on Exorcism could give more detail about it......

I found it in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I posted it here awhile back. It was very interesting.

LisaIt depends on which form of rite of exorcism you are using.

An exorcism minor frequently does not include asking the name of the demonic spirit. A "formal exorcism" (aka "the Roman Rite") does include the following:
2. Then he commands the demon as follows: I command you, unclean spirit, whoever you are, along with all your minions now attacking this servant of God, by the mysteries of the incarnation, passion, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, by the descent of the Holy Spirit, by the coming of our Lord for judgment, that you tell me by some sign your name, and the day and hour of your departure. I command you, moveover, to obey me to the letter, I who am a minister of God despite my unworthiness; nor shall you be emboldened to harm in any way this creature of God, or the bystanders, or any of their possessions. 3. Next he reads over the possessed person these selections from the Gospel, or at least one of them.However, whether the demonic spirit answers or not, the priest continues on with the reading of the Gospel and the following prayers.

The adjurations do not utilize the name of the spirit, even if it is known. There are several used, but here is the first one as an example:
I cast you out, unclean spirit, along with every satanic power of the enemy, every spectre from hell, and all your fell companions; in the name of our Lord Jesus + Christ Begone and stay far from this creature of God. + For it is He who commands you, He who flung you headlong from the heights of heaven into the depths of hell. It is He who commands you, He who once stilled the sea and the wind and the storm. Hearken, therefore, and tremble in fear, Satan, you enemy of the faith, you foe of the human race, you begetter of death, you robber of life, you corrupter of justice, you root of all evil and vice? seducer of men, betrayer of the nations, instigator of envy, font of avarice, fomentor of discord, author of pain and sorrow. Why, then, do you stand and resist, knowing as you must that Christ the Lord brings your plans to nothing? Fear Him, who in Isaac was offered in sacrifice, in Joseph sold into bondage, slain as the paschal lamb, crucified as man, yet triumphed over the powers of hell. (The three signs of the cross which follow are traced on the brow of the possessed person). Begone, then, in the name of the Father, + and of the Son, + and of the Holy + Spirit. Give place to the Holy Spirit by this sign of the holy + cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with the Father and the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.
All: Amen.

[IamRedeemed]

First, we know the name of Jesus is the name above every name, every knee must bow and every tongue confess, He is the Lord. Philippians 2:9-11

Demons know He is the Lord. When Jesus was approaching the man who had a legion, they cried out, "what have we to do with thee, Jesus, Son of God, have you come to torment us before the time?" Matthew 8:29, Mark 1:24

In order to cast a demon out, we must identify what spirit is operating and then exorcise the authority we have in the name of Jesus as those who are redeemed over it.

One healing that a woman received in Jesus' ministry which kept her bent over for 18 years, Jesus identified as a spirit of infirmity, and He casted it out. Luke 13:10-19

In another deliverance, the disciples couldn't cast a certain demon out of a young boy. After the father of the boy brought him to Jesus explaining that his disciples couldn't cast it out. Jesus cast it out and when the Disciples asked Him why they couldn't cast it out, Jesus said, "this kind goes out only be fasting and prayer."
Matthew 17:21 , Mark 9:29

This indicates that Jesus is confirming that we must first identify the spirit that operating, as we cannot bind it or loose it unless we know what it is. And of course if we fast and pray regularly, then we will be prepared to cast out even those which require fasting and prayer. Jesus fasted and prayed regularly.

Knowledge of what type of spirit it is we may have before us may be given to us through a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom and if not we can ask the spirit to tell us its name, and it must obey, because of a true believer's authority in Christ. By experience, identifying the spirits in operation can also helpful for future ministry of deliverance.

If a person is not a true believer in Christ and has not the Holy Spirit and they try this, they may experience something similar to what the sons of Sceva experienced.
So, I wouldn't recommend that anyone who is not sure of who they are in Christ, go out and try this.

They thought it was pretty cool that demons obeyed the Disciples, and so they thought they would try it and using the name of Jesus, they commanded the demons to come out of a man and the demons replied, "Jesus we know and Paul we know, but who are you?" and they jumped on the seven sons of Sceva, tore them up and shred their clothes off of their bodies and sent them running away naked and wounded. Acts 19:10-16

[Simon_Templar]

I of course admit I often make theological mistakes. From what everyone has told me so far, it appears I was wrong.
its actually a fairly common issue. There have been several different sources that have postulated that Jesus' incarnation limited his access to divine power. They would not say that he ceased to be God, but that he limited his divine capacities some how.

This idea is usually based on, or supported by phillipians 2:7 (if memory serves) and is often times called "kenosis theory" Kenosis is the greek word paul uses to describe how Christ "emptied" himself. Some suggest that this emptying was a laying aside of some of his divine powers.

it is, however, a misreading of that passage which is not talking about the nature of his being, but rather the outward appearance. it is talking not about his essense, but rather his reputation.

also, as a nitpick :) its hypostatic, not hyperstatic (kind of unimportant, but I thought you might want to know)

[jive4005]

When Jesus asks.. you tell!

rev

[Lisa0315]

When Jesus asks.. you tell!

rev

Absolutely! However, what my question was about was why did Jesus ask when He already knew?

Lisa

[Time2BCounted]

Jesus asked many questions of many people, though i feel He knew before He asked

The man with the son posessed. The apostles coundnt cast it out and Jesus asked the father "Do you believe", and the father replied "Lord i believe, help my unbelief"

Again He asked "Whos image is on this coin?" Render to Caesar what is his.

Again He asked "Who do men say that IAm?"

and "Who do YOU say that I Am?"

He asked "Are ye not worth MUCH more than these?", when speaking of the lillies and the sparrows whom God watches and blesses.

He asked "Do you betray your master with a kiss?"


All these things i would say He knew. I personally believe His questions were mainly for the ones He was addressing, and secondarily to those who heard. We are told often that Jesus perceived these things prior to asking, not in every case are we told this, but in enough to cause me to believe this is likely so.

[sageoffools]

Why did God ask Adam and Eve where they were in the Garden of Eden?
Why did God ask Cain where Able was?
Didn't He already know these things?
When God or Jesus asks questions, they always ask them for our benefit.

[Time2BCounted]

Why did God ask Adam and Eve where they were in the Garden of Eden?
Why did God ask Cain where Able was?
Didn't He already know these things?
When God or Jesus asks questions, they always ask them for our benefit.
id say we were thinkin along the same lines there Sage

[sageoffools]

id say we were thinkin along the same lines there Sage
I Agree! :thumbsup:

I think it would have been a strange exchange without this. The man approaches Jesus, and Jesus says "Your name is Legion, for you are many!" Would have been a little weird.

[Time2BCounted]

I Agree! :thumbsup:

I think it would have been a strange exchange without this. The man approaches Jesus, and Jesus says "Your name is Legion, for you are many!" Would have been a little weird.
LOL thats almost funny now that you mention it, kinda like leading the witness? lol

[IamRedeemed]

:amen:

Why did God ask Adam and Eve where they were in the Garden of Eden?
Why did God ask Cain where Able was?
Didn't He already know these things?
When God or Jesus asks questions, they always ask them for our benefit.

[Simon_Templar]

Why did God ask Adam and Eve where they were in the Garden of Eden?
Why did God ask Cain where Able was?
Didn't He already know these things?
When God or Jesus asks questions, they always ask them for our benefit.
it is certain that when God asks questions it is not an indicator that he lacks knowledge, or that he is learning something by the questions.

However, the assumption that he asks them for our benefit does not really answer this particular question. Jesus askes this question for our benefit... ok, in what way does it benefit us to know the demon's name? Why would Jesus set this example, this precedent?

Merely saying it is for our benefit doesn't answer the question. The root question is why or how it benefits us.

[IamRedeemed]

:idea:
Perhaps he added what he did because the expounding on the whys and wherefores, were already explained
in depth by other members? That maybe he didn't want to repeat what had already
been said but wanted to contribute something together with it?

Just a guess ........


it is certain that when God asks questions it is not an indicator that he lacks knowledge, or that he is learning something by the questions.

However, the assumption that he asks them for our benefit does not really answer this particular question. Jesus askes this question for our benefit... ok, in what way does it benefit us to know the demon's name? Why would Jesus set this example, this precedent?

Merely saying it is for our benefit doesn't answer the question. The root question is why or how it benefits us.

[Lisa0315]

I think it is to demonstrate his power as what is said, to show us an example of the power that has been given to us in His name, and to also teach us that demons are real.

I am sure there is more and we are not digging deep enough.

Ooh, what was the name in the Greek or Aramic? What was the number assigned to the name? Let me see if I can calculate it: Be back...

Lisa

[sageoffools]

it is certain that when God asks questions it is not an indicator that he lacks knowledge, or that he is learning something by the questions.

However, the assumption that he asks them for our benefit does not really answer this particular question. Jesus askes this question for our benefit... ok, in what way does it benefit us to know the demon's name? Why would Jesus set this example, this precedent?

Merely saying it is for our benefit doesn't answer the question. The root question is why or how it benefits us.

See second post :thumbsup:

[Simon_Templar]

Some have said to show authority.. a sensible answer.. but let me ask a question in response...

Which shows more authority, the fact that the demon must answer his questions? or the fact that he can simply tell it to go and it goes?

Jesus showed authority before simply by casting demons out with a short command, why do it differently here?

[Lisa0315]

http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Mar/Mar005.html

V. The account Christ took from this unclean spirit of his name. This we had not in Matthew. Christ asked him, What is thy name? Not but that Christ could call all the fallen stars, as well as the morning stars, by their names; but he demands this, that the standers by might be affected with the vast numbers and power of those malignant infernal spirits, as they had reason to be, when the answer was, My name is Legion, for we are many; a legion of soldiers among the Romans consisted, some say, of six thousand men, others of twelve thousand and five hundred; but the number of a legion with them, like that of a regiment with us, was not always the same. Now this intimates that the devils, the infernal powers, are, 1. Military powers; a legion is a number of soldiers in arms. The devils war against God and his glory, Christ and his gospel, men and their holiness and happiness. They are such as we are to resist and wrestle against, Eph. 6:12 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph006.html#12). 2. That they are numerous; he owns, or rather he boasts—We are many; as if he hoped to be too many for Christ himself to deal with. What multitudes of apostate spirits were there, and all enemies to God and man; when here were a legion posted to keep garrison in one poor wretched creature against Christ! Many there are that rise up against us. 3. That they are unanimous; they are many devils, and yet but one legion engaged in the same wicked cause; and therefore that cavil of the Pharisees, which supposed Satan to cast out Satan, and to be divided against himself, was altogether groundless. It was not one of this legion that betrayed the rest, for they all said, as one man, What have I to do with thee? 4. That they are very powerful; Who can stand before a legion? We are not a match for our spiritual enemies, in our own strength; but in the Lord, and in the power of his might, we shall be able to stand against them, though there are legions of them. 5. That there is order among them, as there is in a legion; there are principalities, and powers, and rulers of the darkness of this world, which supposes that there are those of a lower rank; the devil and his angels; the dragon and his; the prince of the devils and his subjects: which makes those enemies the more formidable.

[sageoffools]

Thats why he gets to write his own set of commentaries! :thumbsup:

[Lisa0315]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Mar&chapter=5&verse=9&Comm=Comm%2Fdavid_guzik%2Fsg%2FMar_5.html%230%26*David+Guzik%26&Select.x=26&Select.y=13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Mar&chapter=5&verse=9&Comm=Comm%2Fdavid_guzik%2Fsg%2FMar_5.html%230%26*David+Guzik%26&Select.x=26&Select.y=13)



Mark 5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar005.html#1) - Jesus Demonstrates His Authority

A. The authority of Jesus in the life of the Gaderene demoniac.
1. (1-8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar005.html#1)) The description of the demon possessed man.
Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes. And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones. When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me.” For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!”
a. Immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit: This is the most detailed description of a demon possessed man we have in the Bible. It is the classic profile of demonic possession.

The man had been demon possessed for a long time (Luke 8:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk008.html#27)).
The man wore no clothes and lived like a sub-human, wild animal (Luke 8:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk008.html#27)).
The man lived among the decaying and dead, contrary to Jewish law and human instinct (dwelling among the tombs).
The man had supernatural strength (chains pulled apart).
The man was tormented and self-destructive (crying out and cutting himself with stones).
The man had uncontrollable behavior (neither could anyone tame him). Strangely, some Christians think that this is how the Holy Spirit works: by overwhelming the operations of the body, and making one do strange and grotesque things.i. We can be sure that he did not start out this way. At one time this man lived among others in the village. But his own irrational, wild behavior convinced the villagers that he was demon possessed, or at least insane. They bound him with chains to keep him from hurting others, but he broke the chains time and again. Finally, they drove him out of town and he lived in the village cemetery, a madman among the tombs, hurting the only person he could - himself.
b. Immediately there met Him: When this man came to Jesus (Jesus did not seek out the man), Jesus said to demon possessing the man, Come out of the man, unclean spirit!
c. Jesus, Son of the Most High God: This is what the demons said in response to Jesus’ command to come out of the man (for He said to them, “Come out of the man”). This was a way they tried to resist the work of Jesus.
i. In the background of all this is the ancient superstition that you had spiritual power over another if you knew or said their exact name. This is why the unclean spirits addressed Jesus with this full title: Jesus, Son of the Most High God. According to the superstitions of the day, this was like a round of artillery fired at Jesus.
ii. “The full address is not a confession of Jesus’ dignity but a desperate attempt to gain control over him or to render him harmless, in accordance with the common assumption of the period that the use of the precise name of an adversary gave one mastery over him.” (Lane)
iii. Therefore, in their address of Jesus they have the right theological facts, but they don’t have the right heart. The demons inhabiting him had a kind of “faith” in Jesus. They knew the true identity of Jesus better than the religious leaders did. But it was not a faith or a knowledge of Jesus that could save (James 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#19)).
d. What have I to do with You . . . I implore You by God that You do not torment me: This is the unclean spirit speaking, not the man possessed. The demon did not want to leave his “host.”
i. Demonic possession is when a demonic spirit resides in a human body, and at times the demon will show its own personality through the personality of the host body.
ii. Demonic possession is a reality today, though we must guard against either ignoring demonic activity or over-emphasizing supposed demonic activity.
iii. We are not told specifically how a person becomes demon possessed, other than the inference that it must be by some sort of invitation, whether offered deliberately or not. Superstition, fortune telling, “harmless” occult games and practices, spiritism, New Age deception, magic, drug taking and other things open doors of deception, and present a real demonic danger.
iv. People often get involved in the occult or demonic things because there is something there that seems to work. Unfortunately, it is not something, but someone.
e. Do not torment me: These demons considered it torment to be put out of this man’s body. Why do demons want to inhabit human bodies? For the same reason why the vandal wants a spray can, or a violent man wants a gun. A human body is a weapon that they can use in their attack against God.
i. Demons also attack men because they hate the image of God in man, so they attack that image by debasing man and making him grotesque - just as they did to this man in the country of the Gadarenes.
ii. Demons have the same goal in Christians: to wreck the image of God. But their tactics are restricted toward Christians, because demonic spirits were “disarmed” by Jesus’ work on the cross (Colossians 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Col/Col002.html#15)). Demonic spirits certainly can both deceive and intimidate Christians, binding them with fear and unbelief.
2. (9-13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar005.html#9)) Jesus demonstrates His authority over evil spirits.
Then He asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country. Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. So all the demons begged Him, saying, “Send us to the swine, that we may enter them.” And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea.
a. What is your name? Why did Jesus ask for a name? Probably so that we would know the full extent of the problem, knowing that the man was filled with many demons (Legion) not just one. A Roman legion usually consisted of 6,000 men. This does not mean that the man was inhabited with 6,000 demons, but that he had many.
i. From the account as a whole, we see that Jesus was not playing into the ancient superstition about knowing a demon’s name. In fact, Jesus shows that it is unnecessary for Him to know the name of the demon. When they replied “Legion,” they really weren’t saying a name, but simply trying to intimidate Jesus with a large number. Legion says, “There are a lot of us, we are organized, we are unified, we are ready to fight, and we are mighty.”
ii. If it was important for Jesus to know their names, He could have demanded “name, rank, and serial number” for each of them one by one. But Jesus would not play into their superstitions. His power was greater than them.
iii. According to the superstitions of the day, the onlookers probably felt that the unclean spirits had the upper hand. They knew and declared a full name of Jesus. They evaded His request for their name. And finally, they hoped to frighten Jesus with their large number. But Jesus didn’t buy into these ancient superstitions at all, and easily cast the unclean spirits out of the afflicted man.
iv. “The answer may be evasive, the demons desiring to withhold their true names from Jesus in a desperate attempt to thwart his power. It is also possible that the name may have been selected to invoke the fear of a powerful name.” (Lane)
v. It’s important to emphasize this, because it is easy for Christians to get caught up in superstitions about demons and the spiritual realm. Some people act like demonic trouble is spread like cooties. If that were true, think of all the things you come in contact with every day that might have been touched by a demon possessed person. The demonic trouble with objects is found in their content, not in the object itself. We must never be caught up in such foolish and counter-productive superstitions.
b. Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country: Luke 8:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk008.html#31) tells us that the demons also begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss. They did not want to become “inactive.” “Lo, it is another hell to the devil to be idle, or otherwise than evil-occupied.” (Trapp)
i. “Satan would rather vex swine than do no mischief at all. He is so fond of evil that he would work it upon animals if he cannot work it upon men.” (Spurgeon)
ii. Why did these demons want to say in that country? “That it was a paganish, ignorant, sottish place, where usually the devil hath the best markets and the greatest rule. For as it is said of Christ, that he could not do much in some places where he came because of their unbelief; so neither can the devil do much in some places, because of the faith of the gospel received by them. Hence it is observable, that as the devil is not able to play his game in any place amongst Christians, as he doth this day amongst heathens; so he hath much less power at this day in places where the word of God is more generally known, and more faithfully preached, than in other places where people are more ignorant of the Scriptures, and have less faithful and frequent preaching.” (Poole)
iii. In Mark 5:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar005.html#7), the demons demonstrated that they knew who Jesus was. Here they demonstrate that they can “pray” to Jesus (begged Him earnestly). This shows that you can know who Jesus is and not surrender to Him. You can pray to Him and not surrender to Him.
c. Send us to the swine, that we may enter them: Why did the demons want to enter the swine? Because demons are bent on destruction, and hate to be idle. “The devil is so fond of doing mischief, that he will rather play at a small game than stand out.” (Poole)
i. Notice that the demons can’t even afflict pigs without the permission of God. “Since a demon cannot enter even into a swine without being sent by God himself, how little is the power or malice of them to be dreaded by those who have God for their portion and protector!” (Clarke)

[Simon_Templar]

I think that the comentaries listed show a number of logical faults and assumptions based on modern mindset, which may not be all that accurate.

First. As the second commentary clearly shows, the demons in the man had no doubt whatsoever about Jesus' power over them. They knew from the moment he came in sight that he had absolute power over them and they were afraid! Terrified even that he had come to torment them before their time.

Then the commentary turns around and tries to argue (in both cases) that the demons were trying to intimidate Jesus by calling themselves legion. I submit that this is contradictory reasoning.


Further, there is something that I think most of us have missed to this point. In the account of this story found in Mark chapter 5, it tells us that the demon posessed man ran up to Jesus and that the unclean spirits within the man begged Jesus not to torment them, BECAUSE he was already saying to them “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”

So, the scripture tells us that Jesus had already begun to command the spirit to come out of this man, and as he was doing so, or after he had done so, the spirit responded to him, begging him IN THE NAME OF GOD not to torment him.
Only then did Jesus ask the unclean spirit "what is your name?"

Jesus had ALREADY commanded the spirit to come out, the spirit begged for mercy, by God, and only then did Jesus ask "what is your name?"

There seems to be a lot more here than the modern commentaries are willing to admit.
First the demons were at Jesus' mercy and they knew it and were abjectly begging for mercy. To think that they would then suddenly try to intimidate Jesus by using an impressive name seems rediculous at best.

Secondly, the unclean spirits begged for mercy using the phrase “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”

The word adjure here is key I think. I over looked it at first, but what adjure means is to compell someone who is under an oath, or under the force of law.. at the very minimum it means to solemnly implore. It is very strong language.

Thus Legion is either trying to hold Jesus to some over arching law, or at the very least he is giving a grave imploring request by God himself.

This is interesting in the light of other demons who when Jesus approached them cried out "have you come to torment us before our time?".
This seems to imply that there is an appointed time for judgement of unclean spirits and that until that time they are allowed, or even condemned to roam the earth.

It seems probably most likely that adjure in this case must be understood in the imploring sense, but it does also seem to suggest, because the demon adjures him by God, that the unclean spirit is trying to make sure that Jesus respects the alotment of time that God has already given them before their final judgement.

This account also reveals a couple of peculiar things about unclean spirits. First, they seem to equate being disembodied with torment and relatedly, they do not want to be sent to uninhabited locations.

This is very peculiar if you understand demons to be fallen angels.

This spirit requests not to be sent out of the country.. Jesus said when speaking of what happens to a spirit after it is cast out that they "wander through dry places" and after finding no host, they come back to the person from whom they were cast out.

The early church believed that this literally meant that demons wandered in the deserts, and that seems to be the most natrual explanation. A dry place where there is no life, no hosts for the demon to prey upon etc.

Given that they seem to desire to inhabit bodies, and find it to be torment when they can't, this would be a tormenting experience for them.

I find the explanation for the desire to inhabit bodies also somewhat lacking the in commentary above. Demons may enjoy vandalism, but that is a far cry from viewing it as torment to be disembodied. Torment is a strong word.


I think that the modern view of these things simply doesn't have answers for the questions raised by this situation. There are too many things about it that we don't believe in anymore, so it doesn't fit within the scope of what we are willing to see.

[Nadiine]

I really Like David Guzik's commentaries - they're alot easier to understand than alot of other ones

[Nadiine]

I think that the comentaries listed show a number of logical faults and assumptions based on modern mindset, which may not be all that accurate.

First. As the second commentary clearly shows, the demons in the man had no doubt whatsoever about Jesus' power over them. They knew from the moment he came in sight that he had absolute power over them and they were afraid! Terrified even that he had come to torment them before their time.

Then the commentary turns around and tries to argue (in both cases) that the demons were trying to intimidate Jesus by calling themselves legion. I submit that this is contradictory reasoning.

Well I have to respectfully disagree -- if Satan knows God's power and authority, then why did he even rebel in the first place when he knows God will reign and throw him into Gehenna eternally?

He wouldn't have bothered uprising... so imho, it isn't contrary reasoning; Satan both knows God's power AND still rebels and attacks...
the demons could have been trying to intimidate for the other people's sakes who Jesus was with.?

I just don't think it's contrary reasoning necessarily.

[Time2BCounted]

Well I have to respectfully disagree -- if Satan knows God's power and authority, then why did he even rebel in the first place when he knows God will reign and throw him into Gehenna eternally?

He wouldn't have bothered uprising... so imho, it isn't contrary reasoning; Satan both knows God's power AND still rebels and attacks...
the demons could have been trying to intimidate for the other people's sakes who Jesus was with.?

I just don't think it's contrary reasoning necessarily.


Id have to agree. Satan said he WILL ascend above the throne of heaven, he felt he had a game plan that would work evidently. I think that since he is the father of lies, he likely believes his own.

[Lisa0315]

Well, you may be right about the second one, I don't know, but you gotta give Matthew Henry some props. He is seriously old skool. Look him up, LOL! I think you will laugh at calling him "modern".

Lisa

I think that the comentaries listed show a number of logical faults and assumptions based on modern mindset, which may not be all that accurate.

First. As the second commentary clearly shows, the demons in the man had no doubt whatsoever about Jesus' power over them. They knew from the moment he came in sight that he had absolute power over them and they were afraid! Terrified even that he had come to torment them before their time.

Then the commentary turns around and tries to argue (in both cases) that the demons were trying to intimidate Jesus by calling themselves legion. I submit that this is contradictory reasoning.


Further, there is something that I think most of us have missed to this point. In the account of this story found in Mark chapter 5, it tells us that the demon posessed man ran up to Jesus and that the unclean spirits within the man begged Jesus not to torment them, BECAUSE he was already saying to them “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”

So, the scripture tells us that Jesus had already begun to command the spirit to come out of this man, and as he was doing so, or after he had done so, the spirit responded to him, begging him IN THE NAME OF GOD not to torment him.
Only then did Jesus ask the unclean spirit "what is your name?"

Jesus had ALREADY commanded the spirit to come out, the spirit begged for mercy, by God, and only then did Jesus ask "what is your name?"

There seems to be a lot more here than the modern commentaries are willing to admit.
First the demons were at Jesus' mercy and they knew it and were abjectly begging for mercy. To think that they would then suddenly try to intimidate Jesus by using an impressive name seems rediculous at best.

Secondly, the unclean spirits begged for mercy using the phrase “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”

The word adjure here is key I think. I over looked it at first, but what adjure means is to compell someone who is under an oath, or under the force of law.. at the very minimum it means to solemnly implore. It is very strong language.

Thus Legion is either trying to hold Jesus to some over arching law, or at the very least he is giving a grave imploring request by God himself.

This is interesting in the light of other demons who when Jesus approached them cried out "have you come to torment us before our time?".
This seems to imply that there is an appointed time for judgement of unclean spirits and that until that time they are allowed, or even condemned to roam the earth.

It seems probably most likely that adjure in this case must be understood in the imploring sense, but it does also seem to suggest, because the demon adjures him by God, that the unclean spirit is trying to make sure that Jesus respects the alotment of time that God has already given them before their final judgement.

This account also reveals a couple of peculiar things about unclean spirits. First, they seem to equate being disembodied with torment and relatedly, they do not want to be sent to uninhabited locations.

This is very peculiar if you understand demons to be fallen angels.

This spirit requests not to be sent out of the country.. Jesus said when speaking of what happens to a spirit after it is cast out that they "wander through dry places" and after finding no host, they come back to the person from whom they were cast out.

The early church believed that this literally meant that demons wandered in the deserts, and that seems to be the most natrual explanation. A dry place where there is no life, no hosts for the demon to prey upon etc.

Given that they seem to desire to inhabit bodies, and find it to be torment when they can't, this would be a tormenting experience for them.

I find the explanation for the desire to inhabit bodies also somewhat lacking the in commentary above. Demons may enjoy vandalism, but that is a far cry from viewing it as torment to be disembodied. Torment is a strong word.


I think that the modern view of these things simply doesn't have answers for the questions raised by this situation. There are too many things about it that we don't believe in anymore, so it doesn't fit within the scope of what we are willing to see.

[Nadiine]

Id have to agree. Satan said he WILL ascend above the throne of heaven, he felt he had a game plan that would work evidently. I think that since he is the father of lies, he likely believes his own.
It seems futile to me that a created cherub would think he could usurp the God that made him. Maybe his pride and hatred became so great that he did actually believe his own lies due to the level of evil.

I mean, he didn't go on "faith" - believing God without seeing, he was WITH God and served God directly.
Something's screwed up there someplace - he doesn't seem to think rationally at all imo.

[Nadiine]

Well, you may be right about the second one, I don't know, but you gotta give Matthew Henry some props. He is seriously old skool. Look him up, LOL! I think you will laugh at calling him "modern".

Lisa
I think Matthey Henry is harder to understand than the KJV :( :help: (good, but... help!)

[Simon_Templar]

Well I have to respectfully disagree -- if Satan knows God's power and authority, then why did he even rebel in the first place when he knows God will reign and throw him into Gehenna eternally?

He wouldn't have bothered uprising... so imho, it isn't contrary reasoning; Satan both knows God's power AND still rebels and attacks...
the demons could have been trying to intimidate for the other people's sakes who Jesus was with.?

I just don't think it's contrary reasoning necessarily.
Yes, Satan did rebel, even knowing God's power... but he deluded himself into believing that he could be as God.. he could become as powerful. (assuming of course that the descriptions in Isaiah and Ezekiel are actually applicable to Satan).


I also have no trouble seeing unclean spirits playing possum as it were.. pretending to be weak, and attacking as soon as they perceive a chance etc.
However, there is nothing in any of Jesus' interactions with unclean spirits to remotely indicate such behavior with him.
In all the examples we have available, the demons recognize clearly who Jesus is and there is no indication that they ever remotely imagine that they could over power him. Their only response in any encounter with Jesus is to beg for mercy.

given that context, why would we assume that their description of themselves as legion is an attempt to intimidate Jesus? There is no indication of that, and no precedent for it.

By contrast look at the example of the seven sons of Sceva. They tried to cast out demons in Jesus name and the demon said to them "Paul I know, and Jesus I know, but who are you?" and then the demon set upon them and proceeded to beat the crap out of them.

Demons clearly know who has authority and who does not. I have a hard time believing, based on what the bible says that this was an attempt to intimidate Jesus.

A more interesting observation, and probably more pertinant is the fact that there appears to be a great multitude of spirits involved, but they speak as one, and they are often addressed in the text as one.

Actually, the comparison between Satan's rebellion and the attitude of the demons here is interesting. The scriptures in describing Satan's rebellion speak of his glory and majesty, perhaps indicating that he was deceived by his own greatness and his own spleandor, to think that he could become as great as God.
In Jude, we are told that celestial beings, even fallen ones are not to be addressed lightly, and should not be spoken evil of, or I think the conotation is, should not be talked down to or spoken foolishly about etc.
The picture of fallen angels presented through out scripture is that even in their fallen state they are mighty beyond our knowledge and still magnificient in certain senses. Further they are almost always tied to the realms of air around the earth.

Unclean spirits on the other hand are depicted as almost piteous mean things which wander the earth looking desperately for a body to inhabit.

[Simon_Templar]

Well, you may be right about the second one, I don't know, but you gotta give Matthew Henry some props. He is seriously old skool. Look him up, LOL! I think you will laugh at calling him "modern".

Lisa

I suppose I should clarify.. most people think modern means "current". The modern age is held by historians to have begun at the signing of the peace of westphalia in 1648.

The reason this date is chosen is because it marks the beginning of the modern nation state concept. However it is also convenient because the intellectual/philosophical climate of europe underwent a signficant change coming from the reformation, which in turn produced the scientific revolution at that time, and then shortly after that, the enlightenment.

so in historical terms, MH is considered "modern".