Remember Isaiah 53? (Prophecy of Jesus) - Look What They Found In There Now!

[MandM]

You all may remember the prophecies regarding Jesus that we looked at in Isaiah 53 in other threads.

Now look at what the Bible Code researchers have found in those Messianic chapters in Isaiah!

They have found the name of Jesus (Yeshua), Mary, the names of the 12 disciples, Messiah, Galilee, Herod, His Cross, Let Him Be Crucified and many other terms related to Jesus all in this short passage.

You can read all about it here:

http://bibleprobe.com/jesuscode.htm (http://bibleprobe.com/jesuscode.htm)

What do you skeptics have to say now? It is all a "coincidence"?

If that is what you believe, then you have a whole lot of blind faith.

Anyway, here are some of the findings:

Yeshua 53:10
Nazarene 53:6
Messiah 53:11
Shiloh 53:12
Passover 53:10
Galilee 53:7
Herod 53:6
Caiaphas, High Priest 52:15
Annas, High Priest 53:3
Mary 53:11
Mary 53:10
Mary 53:9
The Disciples 53:12
Peter 53:10
Matthew 53:8
John 53:10
Andrew 53:4
Philip 53:5
Thomas 53:2
James 52:2
James 52:2
Simon 52:14
Thaddaeus 53:12
Matthias 53:5
Let Him be crucified 53:8
His Cross 53:6
Lamp of the Lord 53:5
His signature 52:7
Bread 53:12
Wine 53:5
From Zion 52:14
Moriah 52:7
Obed (servant) 53:7
Jesse 52:9
Seed 52:5
Water 52:7
Levites 54:3
From the Atonement Lamb 52:12
Joseph 53:2

[BereanTodd]

What do you skeptics have to say now? It is all a "coincidence"?


I think Bible codes are a bunch of bunk. We could take any book and search mathematical codes and draw out any message that we want if we try hard enough. Have you ever noticed how all of these "codes" are always after-the-fact? Look at the Bible, what shows it to be God's Word is that centuries before events take place it predicts things, even by name in places.

Bible codes have never done that. Bible codes are in my opinion useless, and of no value whatsoever. I mean no offense to any who hold to them, but I can't help how I feel.

[Steve Petersen]

I concur. I had Bible codes software. It is all hokum.

You can change the interval for the letter skip from 2 to thousands of letters until you find something that you think is important. If everything was found only ever at the same interval, that could be interesting, but these words deemed significant are found and varying intervals.

Another factor: who decides when you stop counting letters? In some cases if you go just one more interval you have a completely different word.

Here is another problem: Hebrew vowels are supplied by the reader, because the Tanak has virtually no vowels in the text. Different vowels make different words. Example what is this word sht

Is is shoot, sheet, shot, shut, shout or something worse? Obviously the word would have to be the same type (verb, noun, adjective, adverb, etc), but without vowels we don't know.

Proper names. What is the correct Hebrew way to write foreign names? How would you write Steven in Hebrew. I'll bet different people would give you different spellings.

How about the name Jaques Chirac? I don't believe there are recognized spellings in Hebrew.

[Tishri1]

I like looking at the bible codes discoveries every once in a while its not my "religion" nor does it replace or add to my faith but it is fun and interesting

way to go OP:wave:

[français]

There is a thing where if you look at the first word of the Torah, then skip every 49 at the beginning and end, it will spell out TORAH and then in Leviticus is spells out Y-HWEH and then Numbers and Deuteronomy it spells TORAH backwards begining and end every 49 letters. Hence, it is like..

TORAH TORAH --> Y-HWEH <-- HAROT HAROT

That was proven true. And that is cool.

But this other "Bible codes" with Isaiah 53 and all is all a load of BS, and is all false. It has been proven wrong time and time again :)

[Steve Petersen]

There is a thing where if you look at the first word of the Torah, then skip every 49 at the beginning and end, it will spell out TORAH and then in Leviticus is spells out Y-HWEH and then Numbers and Deuteronomy it spells TORAH backwards begining and end every 49 letters. Hence, it is like..

TORAH TORAH --> Y-HWEH <-- HAROT HAROT

That was proven true. And that is cool.

But this other "Bible codes" with Isaiah 53 and all is all a load of BS, and is all false. It has been proven wrong time and time again :)


For Torah codes to work you have to assume that there have been no alterations (even one letter) in copies of the text. Then you have to ask 'which text?' Any variation between Torah texts (EVEN ONE LETTER) will throw the ELS off and blow the whole theory. As it stands, variations between the copies of books of the Tanak found in the Dead Sea caves indeed show minor variations with the Masoretic texts.

[visionary]

Every learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth.

[simchat_torah]

I don't really know what to think. I've looked at the probabilities behind the codes before, and its insanely astronomical. But at the same time, I don't know if I trust those who are "finding" the codes.

[français]

For Torah codes to work you have to assume that there have been no alterations (even one letter) in copies of the text. Then you have to ask 'which text?' Any variation between Torah texts (EVEN ONE LETTER) will throw the ELS off and blow the whole theory. As it stands, variations between the copies of books of the Tanak found in the Dead Sea caves indeed show minor variations with the Masoretic texts.

The Qumran sect was a heretical sect though, that split from the Temple. Hence, they had no way to preserve their Torah/Tanach, because they did not have a Temple Authority that could verify.

The Septuigant(Greek translation) was just one of many greek translations, and they were all probably altered here or there by the translators. Also, a translator might have forgotten a word here or there while translating.

I trust the Masaeretic Text.. A text that the Temple would keep preserved and such. Certainly, it would be so hard to corrupt a text or alter it and have no one find out.. Especially if there is a ruling authority that checks to make sure they are authentic.

[simchat_torah]

If I'm not mistaken, there are only 13 very minor variations between the DSS Torah texts and the Masoratic Torah texts, most of which ammounted to spelling differences.

So yeah, "minor" is putting it lightly. They are virtually the same.

[français]

If I'm not mistaken, there are only 13 very minor variations between the DSS Torah texts and the Masoratic Torah texts, most of which ammounted to spelling differences.

So yeah, "minor" is putting it lightly. They are virtually the same.

7 differences with Isaiah 53. There are virtually thousands of differences (I believe 8,000, but I cann ot be sure where I got that number from.)

But most are just spelling differences and such. But, I trust the Temple authority much more then a heretical offshoot sect, so I definetely believe the Masaeretic is a lot more authentic :)

[Steve Petersen]

It only takes one difference to throw off the Codes. Lose or gain a letter and you will have a completely different outcome for equidistant letter spacing.

[français]

Ok, I got 562 differences between the Septuigant and the Masaoretic for Genesis.

74 of these are significant differences. the remaining 488 were probably just translation differences, and maybe an omission or 2 of a word (like instead of L-RD G-D, just has G-D).

The DSS seems to agree with the Masaeretic though. :) Like for example, if there is an error between the Masaeretic and the LXX, there is also usually also an error between the LXX and the DSS.


The Septuigant was translated in Alexandria in probably 256 BCE. The Jews in alexandria were very hellenistic(greek influenced), many probably actually converts. They did not pay attention to the Temple as much as Jews in palestine did. Most of them were very open to other books. For example, the Septuigant Canon has many extra books that the Hebrew does not. Most of these books date around 100-200 BCE, and were not written by a prophet or anything. So we know that they were very open to accepting books that should not have been in there. If they could be so open to that, then they were probably open to translation errors here or there.


the Hebrew has been very prominent, and not just from 10th Centruy AD and on(as many orthodox will make you think.) For example, the Vulgate was translated from Hebrew Texts.. And they have the same numbers, and same differences that the Masaeretic today has with the LXX.

The DSS agree very much with the Maseretic. Now there are some differences, but this is ok.. Looking at the DSS, we see it is really just a collection of a bunch of texts.. Written in Hebrew, Paleo hebrew, Greek, etc. Hence, we see no official canon.. None that this sect used. If they did, there would not be different styles and languages and such.

There are 1900 variants from the DSS that agree with the LXX over the Maseretic. However, there are thousands upon thousands that agree with the Maseretic over the DSS.

[simchat_torah]

7 differences with Isaiah 53. There are virtually thousands of differences (I believe 8,000, but I cann ot be sure where I got that number from.)

But most are just spelling differences and such. But, I trust the Temple authority much more then a heretical offshoot sect, so I definetely believe the Masaeretic is a lot more authentic You're referring to the Septuagint. I'm referring to the Hebrew texts in the DSS.

[français]

You're referring to the Septuagint. I'm referring to the Hebrew texts in the DSS.

No, there are 7 differences between the Maseretic and the DSS when it comes to Isaiah 53.

when it comes to differences between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Maseretic, there are thousands.. Most are spelling variations though.

[simchat_torah]

No, there are 7 differences between the Maseretic and the DSS when it comes to Isaiah 53.
I could have sworn there were 13 variations in spelling in Isaiah 53 between the MSS and DSS. I'll look it up later... gotta oversee the movers which just arrived! ;)

[français]

I could have sworn there were 13 variations in spelling in Isaiah 53 between the MSS and DSS. I'll look it up later... gotta oversee the movers which just arrived! ;)

Actually, I think you are right. I thought it was 13 or 14, but went with 7 because I was not sure.

I believe there are 7 variations between the Yemen Torah's and the Torah's elsewhere. that is probably where I got 7 from lol

[MandM]

Interesting discussion, but I really think we should get back to the original topic.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I do have a question.
Where in Isaiah does it show the Jewish Messiah coming twice?

http://www.jewsforjesus.co.za/faith.htm

We believe that Jesus the Messiah will return personally in order to consummate the prophesied purposes concerning His Kingdom.
-----------------------------------------
Has anyone looked over this thread started awhile back on Isaiah 53 started by a Jew? :wave:

http://foru.ms/t5858522-isaiah-53-a-contextual-discussion.html

[muffler dragon]

What do you skeptics have to say now? It is all a "coincidence"?

One word: bopkess. ;)

If that is what you believe, then you have a whole lot of blind faith.

It has nothing to do with faith. It has to do with finding what you went looking forth. There's nothing magical about this junk.

If you are the type of person who uses whimsical mathematics for your interpretation of a text; then you're no student in my eyes.

You do realize that these Bible Codes premises have done wonders with Moby Dick also, correct?

Edit:

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

[simchat_torah]

You do realize that these Bible Codes premises have done wonders with Moby Dick also, correct?

Edit:

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html)[/quote]lol, awasome.

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you are the type of person who uses whimsical mathematics for your interpretation of a text; then you're no student in my eyes.

You do realize that these Bible Codes premises have done wonders with Moby Dick also, correct?

Edit:

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html)
:D I remember awhile back a person on another forum brought up the Bible Wheel.
I read his statement of Faith and he is a "Creedal Christian" so I automatically become skeptical of his interpretations and I think he believes in a literal future return of Christ.
But I must admit, it is a colorful graphic site.

http://www.biblewheel.com/

Statement of Faith

The Nicene Creed is an ancient statement of faith held in common amongst Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and many Protestant Churches. I use it here as a template for my personal statement of my living faith, and to show how the Wheel adorns these fundamental Christian Doctrines with simplicity, beauty, and grace.
For the sake of clarity, I have made two small alterations to the traditional statement...........

..........The angels said Jesus would come back in the same manner that he ascended. This is recorded on Spoke 22 in Revelation 1.7f:

This is discussed in the article Christ Coming with Clouds (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Tav_Clouds.asp).

[ContentInHim]

I'm with Tishri and MandM - I enjoy reading about the Bible Codes - have a couple of the books. Actually liked the TV programs on History or Discovery - can't remember which. :)

[ORI]

I think Bible codes are a bunch of bunk. We could take any book and search mathematical codes and draw out any message that we want if we try hard enough. Have you ever noticed how all of these "codes" are always after-the-fact? Look at the Bible, what shows it to be God's Word is that centuries before events take place it predicts things, even by name in places.

Bible codes have never done that. Bible codes are in my opinion useless, and of no value whatsoever. I mean no offense to any who hold to them, but I can't help how I feel.
What he said.

[visionary]

I like the fact that it did bring attention back to the word of God by some people who would of otherwise not even looked.

To me, that is the great gain, and to the glory of our Lord.

[muffler dragon]

I'm with Tishri and MandM - I enjoy reading about the Bible Codes - have a couple of the books. Actually liked the TV programs on History or Discovery - can't remember which. :)

I actually owned the first book.

The problem for me was the fact that one can make the same situations out of pretty much any publication given enough time and energy.