Healthy Balance

[Lisa0315]

It has been said that there are two lines of thought here: Theology and Grace.

On one hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is to defend orthodox beliefs and to insure the integrity of the gospel.

On the other hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is outreach to non-believers and uplifting of brothers and sisters.

We seem to have been arguing for some time that one or the other is the ONLY way. Whereas, it may just be possible that both are correct.

There needs to be a healthy balance between the two. God has called us to defend the gospel and to also love our neighbor.

None of us are exactly the same and we should not be attempting to force our own philosophy on the other.

I am a huge believer in the Love Command. That drives my theology. All other commands derive from that. That is what "I" believe.

Even if others do not agree, what part of that makes me less Conservative than another?

Are we not all parts of the body? In my saner moments, I explored the idea that those with more of a defend the gospel temperment, were perhaps the fighting arm of the body. Perhaps, I am more of the shoulder in which I invite people to share their burdens with me.

I suppose the thing that has been most frustrating with me is the sense that the shoulder is not as valid as the fist. Do you understand what I am saying?

Can we all acknowledge that we have all been given different gifts and are to use those gifts according to what we have been called to do?

Just like in a business, you have an HR department, and Accounting department, a Marketing Department, and a Legal Department. A hundred different analogies could be made from that.

I am just trying to get people to see how we can all be completely different and yet still be serving God.

Lisa (Recently Signed Back in Member who is not ready to give up on this place)

[GreenMunchkin]

Lisa, if this thread kicks off, I want your permission to close it, please.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, if this thread kicks off, I want your permission to close it, please.

Sure, Greenie. Maybe it won't.

Lisa

[Rep Daddy]

Hi GM and Lisa.

I do think both theology and love are vital and non-conflicting. We are to speak truth in love.

I am concerned about threads getting overheated and personal. Sometimes some think time is needed.

I think there also is a conflict over the purpose of this specific forum and maybe creating a Outreach Subforum is helpful.

I do think if this thread gets heated it might be good to pause it. Many folks are still raw from yesterday and prior days.

Appreciate you both.

Steve

[Lisa0315]

Hi GM and Lisa.

I do think both theology and love are vital and non-conflicting. We are to speak truth in love.

I am concerned about threads getting overheated and personal. Sometimes some think time is needed.

I think there also is a conflict over the purpose of this specific forum and maybe creating a Outreach Subforum is helpful.

I do think if this thread gets heated it might be good to pause it. Many folks are still raw from yesterday and prior days.

Appreciate you both.

Steve

Yes, this may be a bit premature. We will see how it goes.

Lisa

[Rep Daddy]

You're awesome, Lisa.

[Lisa0315]

You're awesome, Lisa.

You are too, darlin' :hug:

Lisa

[synger]

From what I've seen, it's not the balance so much as how people communicate that encourages or fans flames. Time and time again I see people who seem to feel angry when someone disagrees with them doctrinally. It's not just that they disagree.. it's that the person takes it as a personal attack. Or worse, an attack on God.

From looking at history and theology, one thing has stuck in my mind. There are no new heresies, and very few new ideas. (In fact, the new ideas tend to come because of advancements in science and political theory, that cause wide-spread changes in societies, that then require re-thinking of doctrines to see how they fit with the new changes. Like the advent of motorized transportation, and the availability of birth control, and the rise of socialism.)

The Church has survived for centuries, and will continue to do so, even as people argue and dissect, and yes, attack. I am called to share my beliefs, and to work to serve God and man... but I am not called to "convince" anyone of anything. THat's God's job, and He does it far better than I ever could. So long as I remember that, and leave the convincing in His hands, I can focus on sharing the living gospel, and the doctrines of hope that spring from it.

[Rep Daddy]

As a pastor I also have a concern when I see someone leading others astray.

[desmalia]

Hi Lisa,
I'm not sure that these two classifications really define the "sides" (since in fact they're not opposites, and Christians value both very much), but we can try to work through this together if you like.

It has been said that there are two lines of thought here: Theology and Grace. I agree, it has been said. I would like to point out that although it has been said often and forcefully at times, it's been said by very few individuals. The vast majority here recognize both as important. I would offer that there are differing degrees of focus on each issue, but that neither so-called side dismisses one or the other at all.

On one hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is to defend orthodox beliefs and to insure the integrity of the gospel.I would like try to clarify this label since I fall under it. I believe that because this is an online forum, made up of text, sharing the Gospel message should be the main focus. That is not at the expense of respect, kindness, or composure, as you well know and that is because we are never effective ministers to God's truth if we are trying to promote it for the wrong reasons or motives. The Gospel it is not to be watered down either because then it is no longer the Gospel, but man-made ideology. Real life of course is not the same limited, shallow playing field. There we have personal interaction, and the opportunity to be true servants of one another. Online, those options are limited. So we have to assess what is possible and do our best with that.

Let me try to say this as clearly as I possibly can. Doctrine is vitally important, and by that I mean knowing and living it. Sharing the Gospel is not dry preaching and finger pointing. It is sharing the truth out of love for the souls it may reach. God's first command is to love Him, and His second is to love His children. Without the first, the second means nothing. Under that definition, I hope you can agree this is not a bad position to take.

Honestly I've yet to see any here who want to promote the Gospel for any purpose other than a love for God's truth and for His people. Maybe I don't always say things in the most effective way, but that is because I am human, and imperfect, and yes, sinful. I try, but sometimes I fail. I will continue to try though, and I hope that we can extend each other that grace I keep hearing about when we do mess it up at times.

On the other hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is outreach to non-believers and uplifting of brothers and sisters.
Now this part I can agree on a little more. There are some who focus mainly on that. Completely on that alone? I hope not, but mainly, yes, that seems fairly accurate. We may place different levels of importance on it, but I do think we can all agree that it is still "high up on the list" to share our Lord with the lost. (And I think we must keep in mind that how we share with the lost will depend on our gifts and personalities to a degree. Some will share the Gospel directly, and some will be more of a listening ear. Both are valid.)

I believe we must also remember to be ministers to one another. If we ever try to reach out to an unbeliever at the expense of another believer we completely belittle and even destroy the ministry we're attempting. Why should the unbeliever take us seriously when we offer them a kind hand, but stab our own brother or sister in the back? We must care for one another in the Body, and at times that even has to be a focus above direct outreach to the lost. Consider that when we do care for one another in the Body, that in itself is also outreach to the lost too because they see how we care for each other, and come to desire the same intimacy that we know in Christ.

So my point being that ministry is not only to the lost. It is to each other too. Some may be called to focus more on one than the other at times, and I see no reason why there has to be division over that in any way. If we're supporting each other in these ministries, we can build one another up and have strength in true unity.

We seem to have been arguing for some time that one or the other is the ONLY way. Whereas, it may just be possible that both are correct.
I will have to disagree with you here. I don't think anyone has ever said it has to be ONLY one or the other. Not once. That would actually be a contradiction of Scripture!

There needs to be a healthy balance between the two. God has called us to defend the gospel and to also love our neighbor.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find a single Christian who disagrees with this or who doesn't understand it. It's just that everyone is trying so hard to be heard. Like a lot of people screaming over top of each other. That's where these misconceptions often come from.

None of us are exactly the same and we should not be attempting to force our own philosophy on the other. Agreed. I hope you can agree too that people should not be muzzled from sharing their beliefs either and discussing them honestly. If it can't be done in a respectful manner, that is a whole other issue. I just don't want to see this become a "walk on eggshells" so we can keep the peace kind of scenario, and I think most here would agree with me on that.

I am a huge believer in the Love Command. That drives my theology. All other commands derive from that. That is what "I" believe. Thank you for sharing. I look forward to seeing this belief in practice, sister. :)

Even if others do not agree, what part of that makes me less Conservative than another?Frankly I've totally given up any concern as to whether someone considers me conservative or not. Some consider that since I am a fundmantalist I fall in a category (to the right?) outside of what encompases "conservative". So be it. It's not like they're saying I'm not a Christian (which is a term I hold far more dearly!). Anyway, I think it would be helpful if we let go of this label because it really doesn't mean so much in the grand scheme of things.

Are we not all parts of the body? In my saner moments, I explored the idea that those with more of a defend the gospel temperment, were perhaps the fighting arm of the body. Perhaps, I am more of the shoulder in which I invite people to share their burdens with me.

I suppose the thing that has been most frustrating with me is the sense that the shoulder is not as valid as the fist. Do you understand what I am saying?I can understand what you're saying. But I think we need to be careful here because the "strong arm" members as you call them, have also seen your "cold shoulder", not the loving, welcoming one (and have been treated as though they are not valid as well). These are both important things that need to be sorted out. I think we can ALL agree that feelings have been hurt. Each Christian involved in this will need to take the responsibility to forgive those that have hurt him or her (even if no forgiveness is asked for) if we're going to move past this. That doesn't mean everything is "lovey-dovey" There are times when we forgive, but we still proceed with caution. That is wise. But we know the forgiveness of our Lord for the horrid things we've done against Him. Whatever we have to forgive one another is nothing compared to that.

Can we all acknowledge that we have all been given different gifts and are to use those gifts according to what we have been called to do?One would hope so. I'm going to get really personal here and give a specific example of a gift that should be encouraged. Nadiine (sorry to pick on you, sister!) very clearly has the gift of prophesy (sharing the Gospel). It is an honor for me to support her in this. I admire how she has grown in this gift to the Glory of our Lord. That's just one example of course. Each of us have different gifts.

Just like in a business, you have an HR department, and Accounting department, a Marketing Department, and a Legal Department. A hundred different analogies could be made from that.

I am just trying to get people to see how we can all be completely different and yet still be serving God.

Lisa (Recently Signed Back in Member who is not ready to give up on this place)I appreciate that, and I agree with it. I do also believe that most people here are already quite aware of it.

[Lisa0315]

Hi Lisa,
I'm not sure that these two classifications really define the "sides" (since in fact they're not opposites, and Christians value both very much), but we can try to work through this together if you like.

I agree, it has been said. I would like to point out that although it has been said often and forcefully at times, it's been said by very few individuals. The vast majority here recognize both as important. I would offer that there are differing degrees of focus on each issue, but that neither so-called side dismisses one or the other at all.

I would like try to clarify this label since I fall under it. I believe that because this is an online forum, made up of text, sharing the Gospel message should be the main focus. That is not at the expense of respect, kindness, or composure, as you well know and that is because we are never effective ministers to God's truth if we are trying to promote it for the wrong reasons or motives. The Gospel it is not to be watered down either because then it is no longer the Gospel, but man-made ideology. Real life of course is not the same limited, shallow playing field. There we have personal interaction, and the opportunity to be true servants of one another. Online, those options are limited. So we have to assess what is possible and do our best with that.

Let me try to say this as clearly as I possibly can. Doctrine is vitally important, and by that I mean knowing and living it. Sharing the Gospel is not dry preaching and finger pointing. It is sharing the truth out of love for the souls it may reach. God's first command is to love Him, and His second is to love His children. Without the first, the second means nothing. Under that definition, I hope you can agree this is not a bad position to take.

Honestly I've yet to see any here who want to promote the Gospel for any purpose other than a love for God's truth and for His people. Maybe I don't always say things in the most effective way, but that is because I am human, and imperfect, and yes, sinful. I try, but sometimes I fail. I will continue to try though, and I hope that we can extend each other that grace I keep hearing about when we do mess it up at times.


Now this part I can agree on a little more. There are some who focus mainly on that. Completely on that alone? I hope not, but mainly, yes, that seems fairly accurate. We may place different levels of importance on it, but I do think we can all agree that it is still "high up on the list" to share our Lord with the lost. (And I think we must keep in mind that how we share with the lost will depend on our gifts and personalities to a degree. Some will share the Gospel directly, and some will be more of a listening ear. Both are valid.)

I believe we must also remember to be ministers to one another. If we ever try to reach out to an unbeliever at the expense of another believer we completely belittle and even destroy the ministry we're attempting. Why should the unbeliever take us seriously when we offer them a kind hand, but stab our own brother or sister in the back? We must care for one another in the Body, and at times that even has to be a focus above direct outreach to the lost. Consider that when we do care for one another in the Body, that in itself is also outreach to the lost too because they see how we care for each other, and come to desire the same intimacy that we know in Christ.

So my point being that ministry is not only to the lost. It is to each other too. Some may be called to focus more on one than the other at times, and I see no reason why there has to be division over that in any way. If we're supporting each other in these ministries, we can build one another up and have strength in true unity.


I will have to disagree with you here. I don't think anyone has ever said it has to be ONLY one or the other. Not once. That would actually be a contradiction of Scripture!


I think you'll be hard pressed to find a single Christian who disagrees with this or who doesn't understand it. It's just that everyone is trying so hard to be heard. Like a lot of people screaming over top of each other. That's where these misconceptions often come from.

Agreed. I hope you can agree too that people should not be muzzled from sharing their beliefs either and discussing them honestly. If it can't be done in a respectful manner, that is a whole other issue. I just don't want to see this become a "walk on eggshells" so we can keep the peace kind of scenario, and I think most here would agree with me on that.

Thank you for sharing. I look forward to seeing this belief in practice, sister. :)

Frankly I've totally given up any concern as to whether someone considers me conservative or not. Some consider that since I am a fundmantalist I fall in a category (to the right?) outside of what encompases "conservative". So be it. It's not like they're saying I'm not a Christian (which is a term I hold far more dearly!). Anyway, I think it would be helpful if we let go of this label because it really doesn't mean so much in the grand scheme of things.

I can understand what you're saying. But I think we need to be careful here because the "strong arm" members as you call them, have also seen your "cold shoulder", not the loving, welcoming one (and have been treated as though they are not valid as well). These are both important things that need to be sorted out. I think we can ALL agree that feelings have been hurt. Each Christian involved in this will need to take the responsibility to forgive those that have hurt him or her (even if no forgiveness is asked for) if we're going to move past this. That doesn't mean everything is "lovey-dovey" There are times when we forgive, but we still proceed with caution. That is wise. But we know the forgiveness of our Lord for the horrid things we've done against Him. Whatever we have to forgive one another is nothing compared to that.

One would hope so. I'm going to get really personal here and give a specific example of a gift that should be encouraged. Nadiine (sorry to pick on you, sister!) very clearly has the gift of prophesy (sharing the Gospel). It is an honor for me to support her in this. I admire how she has grown in this gift to the Glory of our Lord. That's just one example of course. Each of us have different gifts.

I appreciate that, and I agree with it. I do also believe that most people here are already quite aware of it.

Oh, I am going to remember that. I have had a cold shoulder lately. I think we have all been in the wrong.

I cannot change other people, but I can change my own behavior. When I decided to come back, I purposed in my heart that I would not get into fights anymore. First, they are conter-productive. Second, they affect me and my walk greatly. Last, who KNOWS who else it may be affecting.

I think that is my chief concern right there. Again, not talking right or wrong, but just where my own perception is coming from. When I see angry brothers and sisters fighting with each other, even if one side is completely in the right from a doctrine point of view, I wonder how a seeker may view us. I worry about that alot.

Lisa

[desmalia]

Oh, I am going to remember that. I have had a cold shoulder lately. I think we have all been in the wrong.

I cannot change other people, but I can change my own behavior. When I decided to come back, I purposed in my heart that I would not get into fights anymore. First, they are conter-productive. Second, they affect me and my walk greatly. Last, who KNOWS who else it may be affecting.

I think that is my chief concern right there. Again, not talking right or wrong, but just where my own perception is coming from. When I see angry brothers and sisters fighting with each other, even if one side is completely in the right from a doctrine point of view, I wonder how a seeker may view us. I worry about that alot.

Lisa
It's an ongoing challenge for us to proclaim confidence in God's truth while remaining in personal humility. I understand how you are feeling completely. We need to remain in that humble place every time we post (or speak, or act, or...).

[NewGuy101]

It has been said that there are two lines of thought here: Theology and Grace.

On one hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is to defend orthodox beliefs and to insure the integrity of the gospel.

On the other hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is outreach to non-believers and uplifting of brothers and sisters.

We seem to have been arguing for some time that one or the other is the ONLY way. Whereas, it may just be possible that both are correct.

There needs to be a healthy balance between the two. God has called us to defend the gospel and to also love our neighbor.

None of us are exactly the same and we should not be attempting to force our own philosophy on the other.

I am a huge believer in the Love Command. That drives my theology. All other commands derive from that. That is what "I" believe.

Even if others do not agree, what part of that makes me less Conservative than another?

Are we not all parts of the body? In my saner moments, I explored the idea that those with more of a defend the gospel temperment, were perhaps the fighting arm of the body. Perhaps, I am more of the shoulder in which I invite people to share their burdens with me.

I suppose the thing that has been most frustrating with me is the sense that the shoulder is not as valid as the fist. Do you understand what I am saying?

Can we all acknowledge that we have all been given different gifts and are to use those gifts according to what we have been called to do?

Just like in a business, you have an HR department, and Accounting department, a Marketing Department, and a Legal Department. A hundred different analogies could be made from that.

I am just trying to get people to see how we can all be completely different and yet still be serving God.

Lisa (Recently Signed Back in Member who is not ready to give up on this place)

Lisa I see that you have decided to apply our conversation to help resolve this thread and I thank you for it. I would like to add that those of us who are for keeping the integarty of the Gospel are STRONG for love. But love doesn't always involve an enphasis on feelings and being emotional. That even if I offend many individuals in this forum is a byproduct of our culture which ISN'T BIBLICAL.

[NewGuy101]

Lisa I see that you have decided to apply our conversation to help resolve this thread and I thank you for it. I would like to add that those of us who are for keeping the integarty of the Gospel are STRONG for love. But love doesn't always involve an enphasis on feelings and being emotional. That even if I offend many individuals in this forum is a byproduct of our culture which ISN'T BIBLICAL.

I've had to hurt peoples feelings because I love them sometimes.

[Rep Daddy]

Love is doing that which is in the best interests of the other. A doctor is not unloving when he tells a patient they have cancer. People who love you tell you when your zipper is open.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa I see that you have decided to apply our conversation to help resolve this thread and I thank you for it. I would like to add that those of us who are for keeping the integarty of the Gospel are STRONG for love. But love doesn't always involve an enphasis on feelings and being emotional. That even if I offend many individuals in this forum is a byproduct of our culture which ISN'T BIBLICAL.

I am a bit hard headed, but I do know when God speaks through a person. Dude, He was speaking in what you wrote to me!

Anyway, my thing is I understand it is not always about hugs and feelings. Yet, can we at least be KIND? Do you know what I mean?

I guess I would just want to work on my delivery. Like, what if I had said all of this first? It is respectful and it is not accusing of anyone. Wouldn't I have saved alot of harm and not scarred my own soul with being ugly?

So, I am sort of wondering if others would do the same. One of the reasons I was unable to argue effectively was that I recognized the truth in what was being said from a doctrine perspective, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what was bothering me about it. I called it out as "fundamentalism" and I shouldn't have. I was trying to say that there was something wrong with the delivery but in turn my own delivery was horrible.

I think part of it is also my Southern raising in which you are supposed to be polite even if someone is being insulting to you. ;)

I just want there to be a balance between truth and the way it is delivered with love.

Another thing is that on here, people cannot hear tones. So, sometimes things sound alot worse than they are intended.

I don't know. I am just trying to figure things out. I am especially trying to figure out why I was so ineffective and ended up becoming something disgraceful.

Lisa

[Rep Daddy]

I am a Southerner by the grace of God, too.

Southern definitions:

Hospitality - the art of making others feel at home, when you wish they were.

Tact - the art of telling some one to go to hades and have them look forward to the trip.

[Lisa0315]

Love is doing that which is in the best interests of the other. A doctor is not unloving when he tells a patient they have cancer. People who love you tell you when your zipper is open.

Yes, that is true.

But...You could say, "<snicker> Dude, your zipper is undone" and then go tell everyone in the office. (Unloving) or "<whisper> Dude, your zipper is undone". (Loving)

I understand that telling someone the truth is a loving thing to do, but delivery of that truth is important too.

Steve, let me tell you a story about my brother, a pastor.

When he first began preaching, he acquired this bad habit of shaking his finger at the audience while he was preaching. He was much more effective when he learned to not shake his finger at people. That was probably 20 years ago now, but I will never forget the first time I saw him preach. I was so embarrassed for him and watched people's reactions to it. It was not good.

So, even though, he had this wonderful sermon, and he is a great speaker, and even more, truly called by God, he was ineffective because of a silly delivery problem. Do you see my point?

Lisa

[NewGuy101]

I am a bit hard headed, but I do know when God speaks through a person. Dude, He was speaking in what you wrote to me!

Anyway, my thing is I understand it is not always about hugs and feelings. Yet, can we at least be KIND? Do you know what I mean?

I guess I would just want to work on my delivery. Like, what if I had said all of this first? It is respectful and it is not accusing of anyone. Wouldn't I have saved alot of harm and not scarred my own soul with being ugly?

So, I am sort of wondering if others would do the same. One of the reasons I was unable to argue effectively was that I recognized the truth in what was being said from a doctrine perspective, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what was bothering me about it. I called it out as &quot;fundamentalism&quot; and I shouldn't have. I was trying to say that there was something wrong with the delivery but in turn my own delivery was horrible.

I think part of it is also my Southern raising in which you are supposed to be polite even if someone is being insulting to you. ;)

I just want there to be a balance between truth and the way it is delivered with love.

Another thing is that on here, people cannot hear tones. So, sometimes things sound alot worse than they are intended.

I don't know. I am just trying to figure things out. I am especially trying to figure out why I was so ineffective and ended up becoming something disgraceful.

Lisa

Lisa, no one wants to apply kindness and sweetness to any situation than me. HONESTLY. But as Jesus did, it really depends on the situation. Sometimes you have to throw out the truth to someone and sometimes you have to show the grace. It's really hard to tell when to apply each but it really depends on the situation.

[Rep Daddy]

Of course I see the point and I hope you were the one who told him. :-) I had to tell a close friend who was a retreat speaker that he used the word "prolific" so many times that the audience was counting them. Not easy.

Now people respond to different styles of confrontation. I was reminded of this verse:

1Thes 5:14
We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

I think that merits my reflection.

[desmalia]

People who love you tell you when your zipper is open.I may have to borrow this one some time. Excellent! ^_^

Southern definitions:

Hospitality - the art of making others feel at home, when you wish they were.

Tact - the art of telling some one to go to hades and have them look forward to the trip.
No way! That's pretty much the same as the Canadian definition. Hm, maybe we speak the same language as y'all, eh?
Of course I see the point and I hope you were the one who told him. :-) I had to tell a close friend who was a retreat speaker that he used the word "prolific" so many times that the audience was counting them. Not easy.

Now people respond to different styles of confrontation. I was reminded of this verse:

1Thes 5:14
We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

I think that merits my reflection.
:amen: :thumbsup:

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, no one wants to apply kindness and sweetness to any situation than me. HONESTLY. But as Jesus did, it really depends on the situation. Sometimes you have to throw out the truth to someone and sometimes you have to show the grace. It's really hard to tell when to apply each but it really depends on the situation.

Okay, let's think on that one a bit. Can we look at Scripture and study this? I don't think God has left us in the dark on this. It is not something that I have ever studied either, but I would like to know. When is it time to preach and when is it time to reach out with love? When is it tough love and when is it soft love, so to speak?

Let's see what we can come up with.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

Christianity will always be running against the prevailing society of individualistic views. I believe that each of us, as individuals, have a responsibility before God, to determine what is true about God and also what is false. What is true about God impacts every aspect of our lives. There is a huge difference in well-balanced doctrines and being off-balance zealousism. God never gives us discernment in order that we may criticize, but that we may intercede. There is a fine balance between legalism and liberalism. Both are wrong. Discernment is the means God uses to literally divide light from darkness, truth from falsehood, right motive from wrong motive, selflessness from selfishness. We should NOT forget that the Word of God stresses the importance of conviction and concern and repentance when being born from above by the Spirit of God. Whether the posts are "correcting" or "offending" which my only fear is that "offending" has silenced the voices of Christians of discernment and put Christians at the mercy of the undiscerning. Some often use forceful words to persecute other Christians who do not agree with them and often silences them. Gullibility is not the same as spirituality because spiritually, we are to discern. Holy Spirit through Grace, through faith keeps our hearts open to whatever is of God, and rejects everything that is not of God.

There is a huge Anabaptist left in me that I am convicted by God that I am to live in peace with my brethren in Christ. I understood that fighting can rob me of my peace and joy of Christ. We must work persistently and faithfully for a more peaceful and equitable world community. Ephesians 4:3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. We who know and love Him are the living church that has been born into the family of God by the Holy Spirit.

I have learned that no matter what happens, I know that everything between me and God is right because everything God is doing in my life is for my good (Rom. 8:28), that produces peace. Jesus said, "Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27). Spiritual peace is my peace with Him through His powerful GRACE because when I carry God's graceful and peaceful heart into turbulent circumstances,

I am undecided about Conversative Christians or forums in general. When there is no joy, why hang around? :(

[Nadiine]

It has been said that there are two lines of thought here: Theology and Grace.

On one hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is to defend orthodox beliefs and to insure the integrity of the gospel.

On the other hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is outreach to non-believers and uplifting of brothers and sisters.

We seem to have been arguing for some time that one or the other is the ONLY way. Whereas, it may just be possible that both are correct.

There needs to be a healthy balance between the two. God has called us to defend the gospel and to also love our neighbor.

None of us are exactly the same and we should not be attempting to force our own philosophy on the other.

I am a huge believer in the Love Command. That drives my theology. All other commands derive from that. That is what "I" believe.

Even if others do not agree, what part of that makes me less Conservative than another?

Are we not all parts of the body? In my saner moments, I explored the idea that those with more of a defend the gospel temperment, were perhaps the fighting arm of the body. Perhaps, I am more of the shoulder in which I invite people to share their burdens with me.

I suppose the thing that has been most frustrating with me is the sense that the shoulder is not as valid as the fist. Do you understand what I am saying?

Can we all acknowledge that we have all been given different gifts and are to use those gifts according to what we have been called to do?

Just like in a business, you have an HR department, and Accounting department, a Marketing Department, and a Legal Department. A hundred different analogies could be made from that.

I am just trying to get people to see how we can all be completely different and yet still be serving God.

Lisa (Recently Signed Back in Member who is not ready to give up on this place)
I had explained what this problem was weeks ago when some of us were feeling extremely intimidated by some people here in being who we are.

Can I just say again that people are given different gifts and ministries within the body of Christ.:angel:
God didn't make us ALL teachers. He didn't make us ALL Shepherds. He didn't make us all interpretors of tongues etc.

My mission is not YOURS - yours is not mine - we are all led differently by the same Spirit (if one HAS the Spirit at all which is a whole other thread) into different ministries to complete the body of Christ & His purposes for the Kingdom.

I am gifted in prophecy - and my mission is in warfare. But that doesn't make my service any less or more important than anyone elses here.
And I do not have to have your gift or mission - yours is yours to use as you will and I haven't once faulted you for it or tried to intimidate your to suit me or mine.

As far as "love"... your ideal of love (as well as some others here) is not the ideal of love that I find in the bible [in it's fullness].
I will offer a post that I recently made on this very subject if you haven't read it to show you what I find true godly love is:
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40080677&postcount=6

But I am not buying into today's Postmodern, PC notion of what christian love is - I think it's unnatural, and that is exactly why you cant' even follow it yourself & neither can anybody else. I believe it's unnatural to even suggest that extreme ideal of love.
We're told what love is, then live on 24/7 GUILT TRIPS in feeling inadequate for not being Loving to everyone - & no wonder - the bar is unrealistic.

YES we need to be kind & gentle and caring and giving and patient etc. but love is also displayed in other ways given the circumstance; and sometimes a firmer hand is necessary for some.

Here's what Paul says:
1 Timothy 5:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=5&verse=20&version=49&context=verse)
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all,
so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

What would you do if that was done in church today??
Yet that's what the Bible teaches us.

People either aren't reading the ENTIRE bible, or they're ignoring what it openly teaches to embrace today's philosophies they're being brainwashed with.

I bet that if I said this same statement Paul did, you'de jump down my throat for being so unkind and mean. :doh:
Jude shows us that balance directly; not everyone responds to the same methods.

I hope that helps clarify some things. I don't apologize OR feel guilty for not showing the type of love you think I should have in every circumstance - but then, I also wouldn't fellowship with some that you do -

It should be left up to us personally without judgments given or intimidation tactics that I keep seeing.

[Lisa0315]

Okay, Nadine. I am going to show you the parts of your post that offends me, okay? I am not excusing my own behavior in the past, but trying to show you where you and I clash on things. Okay? This is just an exercise to help you understand where I have been coming from.

I had explained what this problem was weeks ago when some of us were feeling extremely intimidated by some people here in being who we are.

Can I just say again that people are given different gifts and ministries within the body of Christ.:angel:
God didn't make us ALL teachers. He didn't make us ALL Shepherds. He didn't make us all interpretors of tongues etc.

My mission is not YOURS - yours is not mine - we are all led differently by the same Spirit (if one HAS the Spirit at all which is a whole other thread) into different ministries to complete the body of Christ & His purposes for the Kingdom.

I am gifted in prophecy - and my mission is in warfare. But that doesn't make my service any less or more important than anyone elses here.
And I do not have to have your gift or mission - yours is yours to use as you will and I haven't once faulted you for it or tried to intimidate your to suit me or mine.

As far as "love"... your ideal of love (as well as some others here) is not the ideal of love that I find in the bible [in it's fullness].
I will offer a post that I recently made on this very subject if you haven't read it to show you what I find true godly love is:
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40080677&postcount=6

But I am not buying into today's Postmodern, PC notion of what christian love is - I think it's unnatural, and that is exactly why you cant' even follow it yourself & neither can anybody else. I believe it's unnatural to even suggest that extreme ideal of love.
We're told what love is, then live on 24/7 GUILT TRIPS in feeling inadequate for not being Loving to everyone - & no wonder - the bar is unrealistic.

YES we need to be kind & gentle and caring and giving and patient etc. but love is also displayed in other ways given the circumstance; and sometimes a firmer hand is necessary for some.

Here's what Paul says:
1 Timothy 5:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=5&verse=20&version=49&context=verse)
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all,
so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

What would you do if that was done in church today??
Yet that's what the Bible teaches us.

People either aren't reading the ENTIRE bible, or they're ignoring what it openly teaches to embrace today's philosophies they're being brainwashed with.

I bet that if I said this same statement Paul did, you'de jump down my throat for being so unkind and mean. :doh:
Jude shows us that balance directly; not everyone responds to the same methods.

I hope that helps clarify some things. I don't apologize OR feel guilty for not showing the type of love you think I should have in every circumstance - but then, I also wouldn't fellowship with some that you do -

It should be left up to us personally without judgments given or intimidation tactics that I keep seeing.

The items in red are quite offensive to me. I am not mad at you. I am just wondering if you understand how you come across. Down here, this is what we would call backhanded compliments. It means that you can say just about anything to anyone anytime as long as you follow it with "Bless their little ole heart". It is a joke, but there is quite a bit of truth in it too.

Some would say you are plain speaking, shooting from the hip, telling it like it is. I respect that.

So here is how I read the bolded parts:

As far as "love"... your ideal of love (as well as some others here) is not the ideal of love that I find in the bible [in it's fullness].

This sounds like you are saying that I have perverted the gospel and teaching love in the manner that I do is not Bibical.

But I am not buying into today's Postmodern, PC notion of what christian love is - I think it's unnatural, and that is exactly why you cant' even follow it yourself & neither can anybody else. I believe it's unnatural to even suggest that extreme ideal of love

This sounds like you are calling me a PostModern Politically Correct Liberal. You are telling me that what I am teaching is unnatural. I say to you that of COURSE it is unnatural to the old man. Why do you think it is resisted so much? The new man, though, should embrace this.

but then, I also wouldn't fellowship with some that you do -

I am sure you wouldn't. I am sure if you look at my buddy list you might be quite shocked of who I fellowship with. Unless you are a minister preaching at a campmeeting, you are not going to lead anyone to Christ unless you establish a relationship with them.

Whatever job you have, is there a single person that you would go up to and begin preaching to them without having introduced yourself first, began a conversation, telling them that you are a Christian, asking them about their beliefs.

How do you go about witnessing? More to the point, how effective is your witness. Don't answer. I am asking you to ask yourself. Strangers are not going to come to church with you. Friends and neighbors will.

Finally, there is a great quote by some Catholic or another who says something to the effect of taking the gospel to the world, and when necessary use words.

When speaking the truth, (again rhetorical question) are you speaking it from a place in which you are approachable to that person or do you intimidate with the truth?

intimidation tactics

Wisdom is not filled with insults and baiting. Speaking truth should not be a slam to someone. What intimidation tactics do you think I have employed? I am not on staff. What power do I have? These are very strong words to use.


********************************

Now, in saying all of that, I am NOT attacking you. I am simply trying to show you how I perceive your posts. Second, I think there are secondary issues that color your posts to me. You are angry at me for several reasons and I have certainly learned over the last few days that truth, no MATTER HOW TRUE IT IS, cannot come from a place of anger.

Please do not tell me about Jesus' Righteous Anger towards the money changers. You are not Jesus and Righteous Anger is reserved for the Shepherd and Undershepherds of the flock, not the sheep.

I say this praying that you will receive it in the spirit that I write it. If you find it condemning, it is not my intent. I have been convicted of my sins. I am not pointing yours out, but am trying to explain why your posts have triggered me in the past to post with such anger.

Lisa

[GQ Chris]

There is a line of demarcation when it comes to treating people with Christian Love, and not standing up for what God's Word says in Truth; the Wolves in Sheep's clothing loves to beat this dead horse whenever they're being challenged with the Truth, "Oh you're just one of those Unloving fundie Christians"; this line of thinking paves the way for postmodernism,heresies, compromise, rejections of truth, moral copouts...

[Lisa0315]

There is a line of demarcation when it comes to treating people with Christian Love, and not standing up for what God's Word says in Truth; the Wolves in Sheep's clothing loves to beat this dead horse whenever they're being challenged with the Truth, "Oh you're just one of those Unloving fundie Christians"; this line of thinking paves the way for postmodernism,heresies, compromise, rejections of truth, moral copouts...

LOL! You do realize the last post is going on a year old, right?

[GQ Chris]

LOL! You do realize the last post is going on a year old, right?


No. LoL. But I liked the thread so I figured I'd put in my .02

[Lisa0315]

No. LoL. But I liked the thread so I figured I'd put in my .02

There is a story but I do not want to relive it. The summer of 2007 was not a good time for this site. But, then, the summer of 2008 is not much better.

Lisa

[GQ Chris]

There is a story but I do not want to relive it. The summer of 2007 was not a good time for this site. But, then, the summer of 2008 is not much better.

Lisa


Well I am sorry to hear that, this is further compounded by the fact that I irk You.:sorry:

Sheesh I can't do anything right.

[Lisa0315]

Well I am sorry to hear that, this is further compounded by the fact that I irk You.:sorry:

Sheesh I can't do anything right.

Seriously? It was a test of the new rules. Conservative men do not irk me.

Lisa

[GQ Chris]

Conservative men do not irk me.

Lisa

:scratch: but... you posted that one thread?

[Lisa0315]

:scratch: but... you posted that one thread?

Yes. You will notice that I copied your OP word for word, changing only the group of people. You were targeting a group of people. A staff member told me it was fine. I tested to see if I could flame an opposite group of people and get away with it. I wanted to see if the new rules were biased or not.

Lisa

[GQ Chris]

Yes. You will notice that I copied your OP word for word, changing only the group of people. You were targeting a group of people. A staff member told me it was fine. I tested to see if I could flame an opposite group of people and get away with it. I wanted to see if the new rules were biased or not.

Lisa

Nice. Okay.

[Nadiine]

There is a line of demarcation when it comes to treating people with Christian Love, and not standing up for what God's Word says in Truth; the Wolves in Sheep's clothing loves to beat this dead horse whenever they're being challenged with the Truth, "Oh you're just one of those Unloving fundie Christians"; this line of thinking paves the way for postmodernism,heresies, compromise, rejections of truth, moral copouts...
This is one of the most common problems I see in Christianity --

I've often said that if Jesus and the NT apostles were alive today and on this forum, they'de be condemned by their own people for hatred and being a terrible Christian witness.

Imagine getting physical like Jesus did - today!
http://www.angelfire.com/folk/elshaddi/blink.gif

[Hentenza]

Yes. You will notice that I copied your OP word for word, changing only the group of people. You were targeting a group of people. A staff member told me it was fine. I tested to see if I could flame an opposite group of people and get away with it. I wanted to see if the new rules were biased or not.

Lisa

You can always just go back to being a positive force in this forum versus one that has to test the rules and attempt to show everyone how bad and biased you think we all are.

We all still love the positive Lisa.;):hug::wave:

[Nadiine]

I'm so not into strife & discord - I don't think I fully recouped from last year's warfare
http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animated/anim_13.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=animated/anim_13.gif)

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0182.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=sign/sign0182.gif)
lol

[Lisa0315]

You can always just go back to being a positive force in this forum versus one that has to test the rules and attempt to show everyone how bad and biased you think we all are.

We all still love the positive Lisa.;):hug::wave:

Hen, Do you understand that I cannot respond to you? How is that positive? You are free to call me out. I am not free to respond. Even saying this much is risky.

Lisa

[Hentenza]

Hen, Do you understand that I cannot respond to you? How is that positive? You are free to call me out. I am not free to respond. Even saying this much is risky.

Lisa

Lisa, you know I love you and my intention is not to call you out. I am just concerned with all the negativity. I posted what I posted so that you could see that love is something that is very much alive and well in CC and in this site. I honestly believe that this site is finally heading in the right direction and it needs our help to get there. What we need is positive and loving participation.:hug::hug::hug:

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, you know I love you and my intention is not to call you out. I am just concerned with all the negativity. I posted what I posted so that you could see that love is something that is very much alive and well in CC and in this site. I honestly believe that this site is finally heading in the right direction and it needs our help to get there. What we need is positive and loving participation.:hug::hug::hug:

Yes, Hen. I understand that Conservative Christians are happy about this. There is nothing more that I can say without getting into trouble. That does not disturb you in the least?

Lisa

[Nadiine]

Yes, Hen. I understand that Conservative Christians are happy about this. There is nothing more that I can say without getting into trouble. That does not disturb you in the least?

Lisa
=)
I'll speak for myself here and I don't know what any of your issues are whatsoever... maybe ignorance is bliss :holy:

But all I do here is try to promote God's word & principles. I'm not overly involved in the rules or what people are doing or saying here or elsewhere.
I don't care about what happened last year - I'm perfectly fine to start working on new offenses and leave the old behind lol.

I don't go to the liberal forum, it makes my life less complicated and frustrated. I just go about my time here working on discussion to promote the truth, point to Christ and be encouraging to my fellow brothers & sisters.

When problems w/ guidelines & rules interfere with delivery of God's word and Christians are heavily infringed upon/silenced, then I'll go make some noise about rules or whatever.

It just keeps me out of trouble and more available to witness the Lord wherever I can. Not that I'm saying you should do the same either - if it weren't for some workhorses & whistleblowers around here, I wouldn't of known to join in on some 'crusades' I got involved in.

Just that I seek peace where possible and want witness of Christ promoted. I don't want to get burnt out again like before & have strife take over the areas - esp. now.

[Lisa0315]

=)
I'll speak for myself here and I don't know what any of your issues are whatsoever... maybe ignorance is bliss :holy:

But all I do here is try to promote God's word & principles. I'm not overly involved in the rules or what people are doing or saying here or elsewhere.
I don't care about what happened last year - I'm perfectly fine to start working on new offenses and leave the old behind lol.

I don't go to the liberal forum, it makes my life less complicated and frustrated. I just go about my time here working on discussion to promote the truth, point to Christ and be encouraging to my fellow brothers & sisters.

When problems w/ guidelines & rules interfere with delivery of God's word and Christians are heavily infringed upon/silenced, then I'll go make some noise about rules or whatever.

It just keeps me out of trouble and more available to witness the Lord wherever I can. Not that I'm saying you should do the same either - if it weren't for some workhorses & whistleblowers around here, I wouldn't of known to join in on some 'crusades' I got involved in.

Just that I seek peace where possible and want witness of Christ promoted. I don't want to get burnt out again like before & have strife take over the areas - esp. now.

Workhorses and Whistleblowers are not wanted anymore, Nadiine. Again, that is enough to get me another ban. I don't mind not being able to flame people or whatever. I never did much of that to begin with. However, I do mind not being able to speak against the rules.

Lisa

[MrJim]

However, I do mind not being able to speak against the rules.
Lisa
http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif ...the way things are around here those rules will change again soon..

[Lisa0315]

http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif ...the way things are around here those rules will change again soon..

Yeah, you are probably right. In the meantime, how many sinners will be saved?

IF, Lee's goal is to get the Christians here in the right frame of mind so that outreach would be more feasible, I would kiss his feet. That is not what has been said though. Again, I have been warned against this kind of public complaint on CF. I really need to stop, so I think it would be best if I log out for awhile.


Lisa

[desmalia]

Well I am sorry to hear that, this is further compounded by the fact that I irk You.:sorry:

Sheesh I can't do anything right.

Chris, you don't irk me :), but I have to agree it was probably a huge mistake to drag this thread up. There were a LOT of hurt feelings back then. CC became a ghost town after for quite some time. Now that it's starting to rebuild, it's still quite fragile. Threads like this one (and the current course of the discussion) are not going to help things. I hope you can understand.

[desmalia]

Yeah, you are probably right. In the meantime, how many sinners will be saved?
All the ones that God saves via His Spirit and His Gospel. We keep on sharing that Gospel and let Him do the hard part. :)

IF, Lee's goal is to get the Christians here in the right frame of mind so that outreach would be more feasible, I would kiss his feet. That is not what has been said though. Again, I have been warned against this kind of public complaint on CF. I really need to stop, so I think it would be best if I log out for awhile.


Lisa
Maybe that would be for the best for a little while, you're sounding really on edge these days. Anyway, if people want to know your complaints, they're not hard to find, right?;)

[GQ Chris]

Chris, you don't irk me :), but I have to agree it was probably a huge mistake to drag this thread up. There were a LOT of hurt feelings back then. CC became a ghost town after for quite some time. Now that it's starting to rebuild, it's still quite fragile. Threads like this one (and the current course of the discussion) are not going to help things. I hope you can understand.


I didn't know the past controversies that went on around here...:doh:

but its just my experience in most forums that liberal viewpoints ran rampant and with free reign, and with no limits whatsoever, resulting in personal attacks of all kinds.

[Lisa0315]

How about I just close this thread down. I sure wasn't expecting it to be resurrected.

Lisa

[desmalia]

Sounds good to me, Lisa.

[FreeinChrist]

Closing at OP request