Issues of Messianic Identity

[HaNotsri]

There is a serious issue of identity in the Messianic movement today. I am sure I have railed against this before, but I was recently having a PM conversation with another member of our forum regarding issues of identity.

I am a believer in Christ who believes in a distinct seperation between the concept of Israel (the Jewish people) and the concept of the Church (the Body of Christ). With that being said, I believe there are members of Israel incorporated into the Body of Christ...being our Messianic Jewish brothers (or Hebrew-Christian, whatever you want to call yourselves). I trust that those gentiles that have given their lives over to Christ have been "grafted-in" to the commonwealth of Israel (that being the Children of God). However, that doesn't make us Israel in the national sense nor in the sense of obligation to being shomer mitsvos. It means that we are heirs according to the promise of Abraham, children of the Living God, and heirs to everlasting salvation through our knowing the God of Abraham.

The people that comprise the children of Israel today, I believe, have representatives of all sh'vatim of ancient Israel despite their being divided up today primarily as Kohenim, Levi'im, and Yisroelim. I trust (and can find biblical support for the fact) that many members of the ten tribes of the ancient kingdom of Israel reincorporated themselves with Judah and her form of worship after the split between the kingdoms. Whether that was of their own accord (as can be seen in the apocryphal book of Tobit) or as a result of migrations south during the time of the Assyrian invasion. While I believe that many members of the northern kingdom were cast away or transplanted into the Assyrian empire, I believe many members of those sh'vatim retained their identity as they incorporated back into the kingdom of Judah. I have no doubt in my mind that God will awaken those descendents spirits and return them to the Jewish people as He has done in recent centuries (i.e. the Falasha Mura, B'nai Menashe, those in Peru, etc). Furthermore, I feel He will ultimately reconcile the issue of Karaim and Shomronim in the larger Jewish religious community (whether or not He lets them return is not my call). The reason why I brought this portion up, is because I don't believe in the "Ten Lost Tribes" myth that has plagued the Messianic world with two-house doctrines, etc. I think there is enough biblical and extra-biblical evidence to suggest this.

In addition to the above, I would like to define a Jew in the traditional Jewish concept as being that born of a Jewish mother (which given the biblical text in the Torah and in Ezra, I can see why they interpret it as such) or that which has halachically converted to Judaism (an Orthodox conversion). The reason why I am doing this, is to define "Who is a Jew?" as I continue to write, so that people are not mistaken as to where I stand.

In the Messianic movement we have a problem of identity. Up until recently, if I had to choose a Messianic umbrella organization that I would have supported as being theologically in line with what I believe regarding this issue, it would have been that of the UMJC. Unfortunately, in light of recent findings, I cannot agree with them any longer.

This next part, I am not saying to offend or affront any of our Orthodox Jewish members (i.e. Talmidah, TheRabbi, ChavaK, ChazakEmunah, Simchat_Torah, etc), I am merely bringing this up because it is the truth of the situation and it brings me into the larger conversation within the Messianic world. Coming from a background where I pursued an Orthodox conversion to Judaism (though I was never m'giyurred) and living among chassidim and other Jews who were either frum from birth OR ba'alei t'shuvas, I too experienced some identity issues. When one pursues gerus there are certain things that one cannot do because he has yet to be converted (and therefore become a Jew). These items include, but are not limited too: not being able to observe the Sabbath in its entirety (performing one melacha...in my case, I either ripped a piece of toilet paper...though in some cases someone left the cholent pot on too high or gentile cleaning crew from the night before shut off the women's section lights), not laying tefillin (in my case, I could...but not say the brachos), or during yontif taking my meal from kitchen so that I am not served by a Jew, etc. Through my learning, I came to respect and understand these concepts. I understand and respect these things within the context of Orthodox Judaism. Even if I didn't necessarily agree.

The Torah will always be something that is an obligation upon all of Israel to keep whether or not they place their trust in Christ, it never has been an obligation upon gentiles. However, in the context of Messianic gentiles, I believe that they should be able to take upon themselves as little or as much of the yoke of the Torah as they wish (aside from the moral commitments...which are universal) provided that they have an understanding that this is not something that they must do or have that same sense of obligation in the way that Israel does. Gentiles also need to remember, recognize, and respect the importance of Israel's relationship with the Ribono Shel Olam...as the chosen people of God. We need to recognize her role in God's plan of salvation. However, I do not believe that Jews in the Messianic movement should brush aside the desire of Messianic gentiles to observe the Torah if they so wish. Observance of the Torah's commands are blessing and all who wish to partake, should be able too. This tension between Jews and gentiles in the movement causes all sorts of problems including the advent of cultish movements like the two-house movements (which I feel is a reactionary movement to gentiles feeling as if they aren't important AS gentiles so they make this stuff up or stretch biblical exegesis to its limit to suggest they are part of Israel as described above) or in many cases causing gentiles to pursue conversion to Judaism (which shows that they have their faith mixed up in placing Torah observance before Christ).

It seems now that some Messianic organizations are further adding flames to the fire by offering "conversion" programs within Messianic circles. There are so many problems with this concept. Paul was against this. The conversions would be illegitimate and not accepted anywhere within the Jewish world. It would further divide the Messianic and Jewish communities. It would further alienate gentiles followers as second-class citizens. It may further members joining these two-house cults as it would be "easier" than going through any conversion process (which would make them feel less important AS THEY ARE in the Kingdom of God). Furthermore, it's simply not needed. There would be no advantage spiritually to the person converting (Paul attests to do this!).

The solution to all of these problems is respect. There is no longer Jew or gentile in Christ, that doesn't mean we don't have our roles to play in the Kingdom of God.

1. Messianic gentiles need to recognize and respect Israel's special role and relationship with God. This includes her obligation to observe the Torah and understanding that we don't have that obligation (even if we choose to observe it for our own blessing)

2. Messianic Jews need to recognize the gentile desire to observe the Torah in the Messianic world, despite our lack of obligation to do so. It helps us identify in a more biblical way with our God and with the nation of Israel to whom we are grafted. And it allows to live in way that our Savior and Messiah would have

3. We need to recognize that we are one body with our unique roles in purposes in God's plan for salvation

[Lulav]

There is a serious issue of identity in the Messianic movement today. I am sure I have railed against this before, but I was recently having a PM conversation with another member of our forum regarding issues of identity.

I am a believer in Christ who believes in a distinct seperation between the concept of Israel (the Jewish people) and the concept of the Church (the Body of Christ). With that being said, I believe there are members of Israel incorporated into the Body of Christ...being our Messianic Jewish brothers (or Hebrew-Christian, whatever you want to call yourselves). I trust that those gentiles that have given their lives over to Christ have been "grafted-in" to the commonwealth of Israel (that being the Children of God). However, that doesn't make us Israel in the national sense nor in the sense of obligation to being shomer mitsvos. It means that we are heirs according to the promise of Abraham, children of the Living God, and heirs to everlasting salvation through our knowing the God of Abraham.

The people that comprise the children of Israel today, I believe, have representatives of all sh'vatim of ancient Israel despite their being divided up today primarily as Kohenim, Levi'im, and Yisroelim. I trust (and can find biblical support for the fact) that many members of the ten tribes of the ancient kingdom of Israel reincorporated themselves with Judah and her form of worship after the split between the kingdoms. Whether that was of their own accord (as can be seen in the apocryphal book of Tobit) or as a result of migrations south during the time of the Assyrian invasion. While I believe that many members of the northern kingdom were cast away or transplanted into the Assyrian empire, I believe many members of those sh'vatim retained their identity as they incorporated back into the kingdom of Judah. I have no doubt in my mind that God will awaken those descendents spirits and return them to the Jewish people as He has done in recent centuries (i.e. the Falasha Mura, B'nai Menashe, those in Peru, etc). Furthermore, I feel He will ultimately reconcile the issue of Karaim and Shomronim in the larger Jewish religious community (whether or not He lets them return is not my call). The reason why I brought this portion up, is because I don't believe in the "Ten Lost Tribes" myth that has plagued the Messianic world with two-house doctrines, etc. I think there is enough biblical and extra-biblical evidence to suggest this.

In addition to the above, I would like to define a Jew in the traditional Jewish concept as being that born of a Jewish mother (which given the biblical text in the Torah and in Ezra, I can see why they interpret it as such) or that which has halachically converted to Judaism (an Orthodox conversion). The reason why I am doing this, is to define "Who is a Jew?" as I continue to write, so that people are not mistaken as to where I stand.

In the Messianic movement we have a problem of identity. Up until recently, if I had to choose a Messianic umbrella organization that I would have supported as being theologically in line with what I believe regarding this issue, it would have been that of the UMJC. Unfortunately, in light of recent findings, I cannot agree with them any longer.

This next part, I am not saying to offend or affront any of our Orthodox Jewish members (i.e. Talmidah, TheRabbi, ChavaK, ChazakEmunah, Simchat_Torah, etc), I am merely bringing this up because it is the truth of the situation and it brings me into the larger conversation within the Messianic world. Coming from a background where I pursued an Orthodox conversion to Judaism (though I was never m'giyurred) and living among chassidim and other Jews who were either frum from birth OR ba'alei t'shuvas, I too experienced some identity issues. When one pursues gerus there are certain things that one cannot do because he has yet to be converted (and therefore become a Jew). These items include, but are not limited too: not being able to observe the Sabbath in its entirety (performing one melacha...in my case, I either ripped a piece of toilet paper...though in some cases someone left the cholent pot on too high or gentile cleaning crew from the night before shut off the women's section lights), not laying tefillin (in my case, I could...but not say the brachos), or during yontif taking my meal from kitchen so that I am not served by a Jew, etc. Through my learning, I came to respect and understand these concepts. I understand and respect these things within the context of Orthodox Judaism. Even if I didn't necessarily agree.

The Torah will always be something that is an obligation upon all of Israel to keep whether or not they place their trust in Christ, it never has been an obligation upon gentiles. However, in the context of Messianic gentiles, I believe that they should be able to take upon themselves as little or as much of the yoke of the Torah as they wish (aside from the moral commitments...which are universal) provided that they have an understanding that this is not something that they must do or have that same sense of obligation in the way that Israel does. Gentiles also need to remember, recognize, and respect the importance of Israel's relationship with the Ribono Shel Olam...as the chosen people of God. We need to recognize her role in God's plan of salvtion. However, I do not believe that Jews in the Messianic movement should brush aside the desire of Messianic gentiles to observe the Torah if they so wish. Observance of the Torah's commands are blessing and all who wish to partake, should be able too. This tension between Jews and gentiles in the movement causes all sorts of problems including the advent of cultish movements like the Two-House movements (which I feel is a reactionary movement to gentiles feeling as if they aren't important as gentiles so they make this stuff up or stretch biblical exegesis to its limit) or in many cases causing gentiles to pursue conversion to Judaism (which shows that they have their faith mixed up in placing Torah observance before Christ).

It seems now that some Messianic organizations are further adding flames to the fire by offering "conversion" programs within Messianic circles. The conversions would be illegitimate and not accepted anywhere within the Jewish world. It would further divide the Messianic and Jewish communities. It would further alienate gentiles followers as second-class citizens. It may further members joining these Two-House cults. Furthermore, it's simply not needed. There would be no advantage spiritually to the person converting.

The solution to all of these problems is respect. There is no longer Jew or gentile in Christ, that doesn't mean we don't have our roles to play in the Kingdom of God.

1. Messianic gentiles need to recognize and respect Israel's special role and relationship with God. This includes, her obligation to observe the Torah and understanding that we don't have that obligation (even if we choose to observe it for our own blessing)

2. Messianic Jews need to recognize the gentile desire to observe the Torah in the Messianic world, despite our lack of obligation to do so. It helps us identify in a more biblical way with our God and with the nation of Israel to whom we are grafted. And it allows to live in way that our Savior and Messiah would have.

3. We need to recognize that we are one body with our unique roles in purposes in God's plan for salvation:thumbsup::amen:

[visionary]

Amen...

[christianmomof3]

I think that your particular identity crisis may stem from the Storm Trooper outfit that you are wearing.
I believe the Storm Troopers are the bad guys, aren't they?
They would not be Israeli, would they?
:sorry:


The solution to all of these problems is respect. There is no longer Jew or gentile in Christ, that doesn't mean we don't have our roles to play in the Kingdom of God.

1. Messianic gentiles need to recognize and respect Israel's special role and relationship with God. This includes, her obligation to observe the Torah and understanding that we don't have that obligation (even if we choose to observe it for our own blessing)

2. Messianic Jews need to recognize the gentile desire to observe the Torah in the Messianic world, despite our lack of obligation to do so. It helps us identify in a more biblical way with our God and with the nation of Israel to whom we are grafted. And it allows to live in way that our Savior and Messiah would have.

3. We need to recognize that we are one body with our unique roles in purposes in God's plan for salvation.

I agree that love and respect are important.
We can only be one in Christ.

[ContraMundum]

A Hearty, agreeable Amen.

I really feel like I'm not alone when I read this. Thanks HaNostri. Maybe you understand me when I tell you that many, many agree with you in the world.

Anyway- I think there is a deeper issue. I believe our society and culture is suffering from a kind of post-modern identity crisis, and people tend to search high and low for a feeling of self, looking for meaning in a relationship which can be cultural or religious or political. In days gone by people preserved these things amongst themselves and brought their children up to think that their way was the only fitting way. This was both good and bad, IMHO. It was good in that a strong culture and identity gets you through things, but bad because often heavy inculturation or thought programming is toxic. So, imagine what we have now- people seeking meaning to the point of it becoming toxic!

I really am beginning to think Eric Hoffer had some very good points about our world. :D

[HadassahSukkot]

agreed with all of you...

[Steve Petersen]

I think I could easily become sort of 'Joseph Campbellish' if you know what I mean.

The psychology of religious behavior fascinates me.

[BereanTodd]

Let me add my voice to the hearty chorus of :amen: 's

[HaNotsri]

I think that your particular identity crisis may stem from the Storm Trooper outfit that you are wearing.
I believe the Storm Troopers are the bad guys, aren't they?
They would not be Israeli, would they?
:sorry:

LOL...okay I am a clone trooper then. I am fighting for the Republic!

Thanks everyone for the kind words. This really has been on my heart as of late.

[GerTzedek]

I don't mind being the only one to disagree. But then, I'm the only person here wishing for conversion to Judaism.

There have ALWAYS been those gentiles welcomed into the Jewish People, i.e. Ruth. Conversion happens because the GerTzedek truly exists. To deny this option to a Ger is to be irresponsible. A Ger doesn't convert "for salvation," but because there is something within that drives them to say "Do not urge me to leave you... Your people shall be my people."

HaNotsri: What have you to say to me? Are you going to try to convince me that this is all in my imagination? Or that if I just ignore Judaism it will go away? I'm 46. Twice I've tried to leave it behind. It comes back to hit me in the head as if attached to me by a rubber band.

Part of the problem, HaNotsri, is that as you said, the UMJC's conversion process to Judaism would not be recognized by any bet din. This is not true. Our entire conversion process is overseen by a bet din. If you wish to say it is not recognized by most or even the overwhelming majority, fine. But don't think that this isn't done the way it's done in any other Judaism. And please acknowledge that we do have a Rabbinical Council from which a bet din can be formed for all the various reasons.

[ContraMundum]

Why doesn't anyone ask the question: how come people from Orthodox Jewish backgrounds who accept Yeshua as Messiah rarely stay in the MJ movement and always seem to end up in the mainstream churches after a while? That's the general experience of most (actually, all) of the ones I know personally and the story I'm hearing from people abroad too.

I have my opinion, but I'd love to hear yours. Maybe it's not the same in your area?

BTW- I don't mean nominal Jews, or part-Jews, or "maybe" Jews, I mean people who grew up in an Orthodox home, had a bris, bar-mitzvah etc etc....and I don't mean *all* of them, just most/many of them that convert.

[GerTzedek]

Why doesn't anyone ask the question: how come people from Orthodox Jewish backgrounds who accept Yeshua as Messiah rarely stay in the MJ movement and always seem to end up in the mainstream churches after a while? That's the general experience of most (actually, all) of the ones I know personally and the story I'm hearing from people abroad too.

I have my opinion, but I'd love to hear yours. Maybe it's not the same in your area?

BTW- I don't mean nominal Jews, or part-Jews, or "maybe" Jews, I mean people who grew up in an Orthodox home, had a bris, bar-mitzvah etc etc....and I don't mean *all* of them, just most/many of them that convert.
I guess you just don't know enough yeshua-faith Jews to get a valid sampling. I know quite a few Jews in MJ who have never EVER been members of Christians churches.

Unfortunately, the standard conversion line of gentile churches is, "You are baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now stop doing your Jew stuff." Any Jew who becomes a believer under such well intentioned but disastrous thinking will assimilate. By joinging the MJ movement, they are rediscovering their identity, which the churches tried to kill.

[Steve Petersen]

Why doesn't anyone ask the question: how come people from Orthodox Jewish backgrounds who accept Yeshua as Messiah rarely stay in the MJ movement and always seem to end up in the mainstream churches after a while? That's the general experience of most (actually, all) of the ones I know personally and the story I'm hearing from people abroad too


Psychology. If you are going to make a break it has to be decisive. Given that for an orthodox Jew to become a believer in Jesus has very heavy consequences.

[Henaynei]

I don't mind being the only one to disagree. But then, I'm the only person here wishing for conversion to Judaism.

There have ALWAYS been those gentiles welcomed into the Jewish People, i.e. Ruth. Conversion happens because the GerTzedek truly exists. To deny this option to a Ger is to be irresponsible. A Ger doesn't convert "for salvation," but because there is something within that drives them to say "Do not urge me to leave you... Your people shall be my people."

HaNotsri: What have you to say to me? Are you going to try to convince me that this is all in my imagination? Or that if I just ignore Judaism it will go away? I'm 46. Twice I've tried to leave it behind. It comes back to hit me in the head as if attached to me by a rubber band.

Part of the problem, HaNotsri, is that as you said, the UMJC's conversion process to Judaism would not be recognized by any bet din. This is not true. Our entire conversion process is overseen by a bet din. If you wish to say it is not recognized by most or even the overwhelming majority, fine. But don't think that this isn't done the way it's done in any other Judaism. And please acknowledge that we do have a Rabbinical Council from which a bet din can be formed for all the various reasons.to this I say, Omeyn!:thumbsup:

[Henaynei]

I guess you just don't know enough yeshua-faith Jews to get a valid sampling. I know quite a few Jews in MJ who have never EVER been members of Christians churches.

Unfortunately, the standard conversion line of gentile churches is, "You are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now stop doing your Jew stuff." Any Jew who becomes a believer under such well intentioned but disastrous thinking will assimilate. By joining the MJ movement, they are rediscovering their identity, which the churches tried to kill.true, that.... reversing assimilation.... restoring that which was cut off...

[ContraMundum]

I guess you just don't know enough yeshua-faith Jews to get a valid sampling. I know quite a few Jews in MJ who have never EVER been members of Christians churches.

Umm..what was their background, Ger? Reform? Conservative? I bet if you asked in detail you might see the same pattern.



Unfortunately, the standard conversion line of gentile churches is, "You are baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now stop doing your Jew stuff." Any Jew who becomes a believer under such well intentioned but disastrous thinking will assimilate. By joinging the MJ movement, they are rediscovering their identity, which the churches tried to kill.

I've never heard that before- except for from pentecostals, of course (perhaps this is why the Messianic movement is Pentecostal in it's beliefs and practices, a kind of substitute???).

The Orthodox Jews I know who have found the truth about Yeshua and the NT have maintained their personal lives as Jews but participate in the life of the Church too. It's not always easy, but then again, is being a Jew ever easy? For example, one chap (who now attends the Coptic Church) got rid of his tallis and tefillin and all of his Hasidic books (but things like the Talmud he gave away to a friend) until he asked his priest about it. The priest called me and I said he should have been encouraged to keep them (not necessarily the books, just the scriptural stuff) and in due course some of the other Jews and some parishners I know all put in to have his things replaced. Another man I know started a once a month fellowship for male Jewish Christians- this is attended by all kinds, MJs, Catholics, clerics and even one seeker. Not all keep the mitzvot, (but then again, they didn't all keep them as Jews either) but the most Orthodox among them are all attending mainstream churches. It's just an observation.

[ContraMundum]

Psychology. If you are going to make a break it has to be decisive. Given that for an orthodox Jew to become a believer in Jesus has very heavy consequences.

True, but there are other reasons too.
For example stability, theology, and spiritual safety. In actuality, I think those things were most important for me and from what I gather the same for my immediate fellow sojourners. It's good to be in a place that isn't going to change overnight- that's what we're used to, I guess. It's also comforting to be in a place that has already worked out what it believes and also has clear signs of continuity from 1st Century Judaism. We've all talked about that together. It's always interesting.

There's always psychology involved in religious and even philosophical and political decisions.

Good call.

[SGM4HIM]

This identity crisis of Yeshua followers is not new and Paul deals with this issue and his concerns among 1st century converts in several places.

If conversion by an MJ to Judiaism , becoming a "righteous proselyte" is something that helps one connect and experience richness of Jewish experience, I say fine as long as one feels the New Testament is still an authentic continuation of the Tanach and does not deny the diety of Yeshua. Sadly for some, it is a slippery slope into unbelief in being "complete in Yeshua."

[GerTzedek]

True, but there are other reasons too.
For example stability, theology, and spiritual safety. In actuality, I think those things were most important for me and from what I gather the same for my immediate fellow sojourners. It's good to be in a place that isn't going to change overnight- that's what we're used to, I guess. It's also comforting to be in a place that has already worked out what it believes and also has clear signs of continuity from 1st Century Judaism. We've all talked about that together. It's always interesting.

There's always psychology involved in religious and even philosophical and political decisions.

Good call.
Contra, this was cute. :D The Anglican communion is anything but stable right now. This is not meant to be a "bash the Anglican Church" post -- but only to reply to your comment which inferred that Anglicanism had it together more than MJ. I think at this point in time, you are probably right. However, the direction of movement for MJ is towards greater organization and self understanding. Anglicanism is moving in the opposite direction -- you know I'm speaking such things as the schism with the ECUSA. I pray for your church DAILY.

[Steve Petersen]

However, the direction of movement for MJ is towards greater organization and self understanding.

^_^ We must live on different planets!

[stone]

^_^ We must live on different planets!

Why so you say that?

[Steve Petersen]

Why so you say that?

Greater organization? In the MessyAntic movement? Ach du lieber! Was fur pferdsheiss ist das?

[GerTzedek]

Umm..what was their background, Ger? Reform? Conservative? I bet if you asked in detail you might see the same pattern.



I've never heard that before- except for from pentecostals, of course (perhaps this is why the Messianic movement is Pentecostal in it's beliefs and practices, a kind of substitute???).

The Orthodox Jews I know who have found the truth about Yeshua and the NT have maintained their personal lives as Jews but participate in the life of the Church too. It's not always easy, but then again, is being a Jew ever easy? For example, one chap (who now attends the Coptic Church) got rid of his tallis and tefillin and all of his Hasidic books (but things like the Talmud he gave away to a friend) until he asked his priest about it. The priest called me and I said he should have been encouraged to keep them (not necessarily the books, just the scriptural stuff) and in due course some of the other Jews and some parishners I know all put in to have his things replaced. Another man I know started a once a month fellowship for male Jewish Christians- this is attended by all kinds, MJs, Catholics, clerics and even one seeker. Not all keep the mitzvot, (but then again, they didn't all keep them as Jews either) but the most Orthodox among them are all attending mainstream churches. It's just an observation.
Oh come now. Progress has been made within the Catholic church as far as allowing for Jewish practices. Apparently likewise in Anglicanism. But the standard evangelical response is STILL "What are you doing that for? You are free from the Law." The odds are astronomical that if Jew converts to Christianity, that his grandchildren will no longer identify as Jews.

The best thing I know of that is going on INSIDE the church are organizations such as the International Association of Hebrew Catholics. But if you go into their forum and chat with them, their idea of Jewish identity is simple sentimentality, making lighting shabbat candles, and even for those that observe mitzvot, they believe they do so out of choice and not obligation. Sigh* Conversion to Christianity is still the number one source of assimilation and leaving observance.

[ContraMundum]

Oh come now. Progress has been made within the Catholic church as far as allowing for Jewish practices. Apparently likewise in Anglicanism. But the standard evangelical response is STILL "What are you doing that for? You are free from the Law." The odds are astronomical that if Jew converts to Christianity, that his grandchildren will no longer identify as Jews.

Not in my area. Maybe this is so in your part of the world- which has always had a very Calvinist streak anyway- you know them! :) If you live in the USA you will always have the problem of the "evangelical liberation army" (which is what I call them) and their manifold self-proclaimed "watchdog" ministries that think the world is Calvinist/Reformed/Baptist and who will never accept ancient ecumenical consensus and instead will fight you every step of the way with their antinomian dogma.

The best thing I know of that is going on INSIDE the church are organizations such as the International Association of Hebrew Catholics. But if you go into their forum and chat with them, their idea of Jewish identity is simple sentimentality, making lighting shabbat candles, and even for those that observe mitzvot, they believe they do so out of choice and not obligation. Sigh*

...which is why I remain- to teach and preach a better understanding from within. I get to tell more Christians in a month about the obligations Jews must accept than most Messianics would in their whole lifetime! I'm very fortunate.

Conversion to Christianity is still the number one source of assimilation and leaving observance.

Well, the Jews better get used to it because the conversion of the Jews to accepting the Messiah Yeshua is prophecied and in the meanwhile the rest of the Church needs to get it's act together and stop stripping away our identity- the Church must prepare to recieve the Jews properly and let the Jewish people remain distinct and observant and also be prepared to turn back the clock on a couple of things too (no way will I go into that here though! You guys are not involved anyway).

Likewise, Gentiles leaving the Church to be more "Jewish" will not help anybody, but rather, seems to be more and more of a stumbling block to Jews. We can tell when it's just not Kosher. Just be yourself, people. This is truth.

[ContraMundum]

Contra, this was cute. :D The Anglican communion is anything but stable right now. This is not meant to be a "bash the Anglican Church" post -- but only to reply to your comment which inferred that Anglicanism had it together more than MJ. I think at this point in time, you are probably right. However, the direction of movement for MJ is towards greater organization and self understanding. Anglicanism is moving in the opposite direction -- you know I'm speaking such things as the schism with the ECUSA. I pray for your church DAILY.


Well, like I always say- if you want to be an Anglican, you need to pick your sides now. Be either liberal, traditionalist or conservative because the split is already happening. Which is precisely why I don't encourage anyone I know to be an Anglican unless they wish to be part of my communion, which is conservative. I'd rather see people go elsewhere otherwise.

On the other hand, you are correct- my comment was relative, but also it was a general observation- most orthodox Jews I know who have converted go to EO or RC churches, with a couple of Anglicans (traditionalists) and one Lutheran. However, we all see these streams of the Church as stable, comparatively speaking. But, then again, nothing earthly ever remains exactly the same, does it?

[simchat_torah]

I would agree with Contra... Anglican does have it "put together" more than MJ'ism. Anglicans have a single ruling body, don't have issues with identity, and have common worship practices from one church to the next.

All of which, sadly, can't be said of MJi'sm. MJ's have multiple ruling bodies, even some tiny little cult like sects, all of whom claim to be THE one true Messianic sect. MJ don't know who they are for the most part, their identity crisis is what will destroy them to the core imo.... if it isn't solved fast. Finally, MJ worship is drastically different from congregation to congregation (this can be viewed as a good or bad thing). You could step into one MJ congregation and feel as though you're at a pentacostal revival. The next could feel very Orthodox and deeply rooted in Judaism. But most feel like Baptist churches, with flavors of both Judaism and Charismatic churches.

So, yeah, I'd have to agree with Contra. Despite whatever issues face the governing body of Anglicans, MJ's are in a much worse shape overall.

[visionary]

I would agree with Contra... Anglican does have it "put together" more than MJ'ism. Anglicans have a single ruling body, don't have issues with identity, and have common worship practices from one church to the next.

All of which, sadly, can't be said of MJi'sm. MJ's have multiple ruling bodies, even some tiny little cult like sects, all of whom claim to be THE one true Messianic sect. MJ don't know who they are for the most part, their identity crisis is what will destroy them to the core imo.... if it isn't solved fast. Finally, MJ worship is drastically different from congregation to congregation (this can be viewed as a good or bad thing). You could step into one MJ congregation and feel as though you're at a pentacostal revival. The next could feel very Orthodox and deeply rooted in Judaism. But most feel like Baptist churches, with flavors of both Judaism and Charismatic churches.

So, yeah, I'd have to agree with Contra. Despite whatever issues face the governing body of Anglicans, MJ's are in a much worse shape overall.I agree, so in a back handed way, I agree with you too Contra. Messy Messianics are like two year olds and into everything.

Since God is the Father, He will have to be the guiding force in this matter, all I can say is that I have been lead here in faith and until God has lead me further or somewhere else this is where I stay. I believe others have too experienced this calling and are waiting to see what God will do with the mess. Maybe He needs to call us all out into the desert and organize us into a marching army ready to go forth. There are things that are consistant through out the Messianic and one is the feasts.

[ContraMundum]

I guess the saddest thing of all is that already the MJ movement is divided into denominations with disctinctives- One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical- to name a few. In some cases, these differences are irreconcilable.

God is in charge though- of all His people, all who call on His Name. This is why we should never panic about it.

[GerTzedek]

I guess the saddest thing of all is that already the MJ movement is divided into denominations with disctinctives- One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical- to name a few. In some cases, these differences are irreconcilable.

God is in charge though- of all His people, all who call on His Name. This is why we should never panic about it.
None of those are MJ denominations. There is the MJAA, the UMJC, and the AMJ (the smallest, most fundamentalist one). Just because other groups come along and want to take upon themselves the title of MJ doesn't mean it fits them. If a group that doesn't baptise wants to advertise they are baptists, would it make it true?

[visionary]

I guess the saddest thing of all is that already the MJ movement is divided into denominations with disctinctives- One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical- to name a few. In some cases, these differences are irreconcilable.

God is in charge though- of all His people, all who call on His Name. This is why we should never panic about it.The Lord will prune, water, and fertilize His plant. We will see the fruit of His labor.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Why so you say that?Hey, I aways have people asking what planet Im from. ^_^

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

People are always asking me for charactor references. I just tell them; ask anyone, they will tell you that Im a charactor: All right.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Oh come now. Progress has been made within the Catholic church as far as allowing for Jewish practices. Apparently likewise in Anglicanism. But the standard evangelical response is STILL "What are you doing that for? You are free from the Law." The odds are astronomical that if Jew converts to Christianity, that his grandchildren will no longer identify as Jews.

The best thing I know of that is going on INSIDE the church are organizations such as the International Association of Hebrew Catholics. But if you go into their forum and chat with them, their idea of Jewish identity is simple sentimentality, making lighting shabbat candles, and even for those that observe mitzvot, they believe they do so out of choice and not obligation. Sigh* Conversion to Christianity is still the number one source of assimilation and leaving observance. I was listening to a Catholic tv program yesterday, and they talked about reconciling the different churches to them. It seems that they have a number of P.R. programs going on. What say you?

[stone]

Hey, I aways have people asking what planet Im from. ^_^

hmm... maybe something to do with stormtroopers?

[HaNotsri]

None of those are MJ denominations. There is the MJAA, the UMJC, and the AMJ (the smallest, most fundamentalist one). Just because other groups come along and want to take upon themselves the title of MJ doesn't mean it fits them. If a group that doesn't baptise wants to advertise they are baptists, would it make it true?

It doesn't matter if it doesn't "fit" them. They are a force to be reckoned with within the Messianic community. The fact of the matter is, it has been the Messianic movement and groups whether they be from any of the groups you mentioned above that has helped influence some of the cults that exist.

[ContraMundum]

None of those are MJ denominations. There is the MJAA, the UMJC, and the AMJ (the smallest, most fundamentalist one). Just because other groups come along and want to take upon themselves the title of MJ doesn't mean it fits them. If a group that doesn't baptise wants to advertise they are baptists, would it make it true?

You misunderstood- those things I described (One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical) are theological distinctives that various MJ groups have adopted.

I'm not that dumb, you know. :)

[ContraMundum]

I was listening to a Catholic tv program yesterday, and they talked about reconciling the different churches to them. It seems that they have a number of P.R. programs going on. What say you?


The RCC has had "PR" programs (for want of a better word) going on for centuries and centuries. I've been pretty close to some of them on my side of things.

According to them, it's all about fulfilling the mind of Christ that we all be "one" with the same close unity as He and the Father are "one". This of course bears some serious thought too, because everyone must ask themselves whether or not they are doing anything to this end.

[visionary]

As long as it is not "one with compromising the truth".

[GerTzedek]

You misunderstood- those things I described (One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical) are theological distinctives that various MJ groups have adopted.

I'm not that dumb, you know. :)
An MJ group can be more or less evangelelical, or more or less charismatic. However, One Law and Two House are anti-thetical to MJ's core belief that the union of Jews and gentiles in Yeshua is a union of differentiation. Thus, you will always find those teachings forbidden in MJ denominations.

[GerTzedek]

Contra:

And how many Jews within the Anglican Church have you helped bring into observance? And how many more have simply blown observance off.

Again, conversion to Christianity remains the number one reason for Jews walking away from both People and Covenant. I worked within the church for YEARS trying to make a difference, and I feel like all I have is a very sore and bloody forehead for banging my head against the wall. The ONLY place I see any REAL progress against assimilation is within the Messianic movement.

Does that mean I think Yeshua-faith Jews MUST leave the churches for MJ? NO! Obviously you are doing just fine. I know others doing well. But you are exceptions rather than the rule.

[ContraMundum]

Contra:

And how many Jews within the Anglican Church have you helped bring into observance? And how many more have simply blown observance off.

Only one have I helped, and I have never seen anyone within my experience (as defined by "Anglicanism") just "blow" observance off. Not once.

Again, conversion to Christianity remains the number one reason for Jews walking away from both People and Covenant.

I doubt that very, very much. Most of the Jews I know are neither Christian or observant. The ratio is favored heavily by non-observance. The Christian Church is merely a popular scapegoat among the anti-missionaries.

I worked within the church for YEARS trying to make a difference, and I feel like all I have is a very sore and bloody forehead for banging my head against the wall. The ONLY place I see any REAL progress against assimilation is within the Messianic movement.

Oh well. Sorry to hear that. I'm doing very well, actually.

Does that mean I think Yeshua-faith Jews MUST leave the churches for MJ? NO! Obviously you are doing just fine. I know others doing well. But you are exceptions rather than the rule.

Us "exceptions" will one day prove to be the rule, if you believe the prophetic parts of the scriptures in the manner I do. :)

In any case- as long as we do what God has put before us we will be only accountable to Him. Each may be in a different situation, but all must be faithful.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

The RCC has had "PR" programs (for want of a better word) going on for centuries and centuries. I've been pretty close to some of them on my side of things.

According to them, it's all about fulfilling the mind of Christ that we all be "one" with the same close unity as He and the Father are "one". This of course bears some serious thought too, because everyone must ask themselves whether or not they are doing anything to this end. Im for the unity of Christians, but Im concerned about them compromising the truth. The word Pope means Father. Who is your Holy Father?

[HaNotsri]

I worked within the church for YEARS trying to make a difference, and I feel like all I have is a very sore and bloody forehead for banging my head against the wall. The ONLY place I see any REAL progress against assimilation is within the Messianic movement.

To Jews even joining the Messianic movement is considered assimilation. So you really aren't finding any progress when it comes to the larger Jewish world.

[ContraMundum]

Im for the unity of Christians, but Im concerned about them compromising the truth.

Naturally. I don't think anyone, even the Catholics, would want that.

The word Pope means Father. Who is your Holy Father?

I have lots of fathers (my Dad, my mentors, St. Paul fathered us Christians too- this term is allowable in the right contexts according to scripture). But Yeshua said "call no man Father" when He was speaking of within a certain other context, of which I have only one Father, God the Father. (Let's not derail the thread too much, eh?)

But, because you and I are of different religions I have a feeling we won't see eye to eye on this anyway. Still, enjoy your day! :)

[ContraMundum]

To Jews even joining the Messianic movement is considered assimilation. So you really aren't finding any progress when it comes to the larger Jewish world.


Oh well, some Jews think buying from the wrong shop is assimilation. :)

Nevertheless, God is in charge and the inconsistancies of the Rabbinic arguments regarding assimilation and "who is a Jew" will always stand out like a sore thumb. You can't please everybody, so we should all just try to please God.

[TheRabbi]

Nevertheless, God is in charge and the inconsistancies of the Rabbinic arguments regarding assimilation and "who is a Jew" will always stand out like a sore thumb.


Not sure what you're talking about there, maybe you could clarify?

I do agree with you though, that the idea that conversion to Christianity is the prime reason for assimilation is patently absurd.

[ContraMundum]

Not sure what you're talking about there, maybe you could clarify?

I'm sure you're aware of the various arguments over identity among the various Jewish schools of thought. That's what I was referring to. There's some diversity and although each individual system of belief within each school is pushed towards consistant internal structure and logic the sum of all schools looks pretty diverse and contradictory.

I think this is the same within disputable points in any religion, actually, including mine. We have lots of diversity on open questions and even ones that appear to be more obvious.

I do agree with you though, that the idea that conversion to Christianity is the prime reason for assimilation is patently absurd.

Yep.

[GerTzedek]

Not sure what you're talking about there, maybe you could clarify?

I do agree with you though, that the idea that conversion to Christianity is the prime reason for assimilation is patently absurd.
Assimilation ultimately being no longer identifying as a Jew, what, Rabbi, would you say the major reason for assimilation is? Secular Jews, for example, while not observant, still identify as Jews. Their children still identify as Jews. How about their grandchildren? Because that's where it's finally lost as far as converts go -- their grandchildren do not identify as Jews. They are lost to Israel.

[GerTzedek]

Michael:

This is not a forum in which to attack the gentile churches. That includes the Catholic church.

[TheRabbi]

Allan Dershowitz can identify as a Jew all he wants, but he's still just as assimilated as a jew that converts to Christianity, Buddhism or any other religion.