Oh my goodness!

[GerTzedek]

I just got off the phone with my daughter who is 19 (and whom I miss so very much!) To understand the shock of this phone call, you must understand that my daughter is a VERY devout Catholic. It was only a year ago she even brought up the possibility of becoming a nun. It goes way beyond just attending Mass regularly for this girl.

Well, she mentioned she was going to go to shul with a friend this Friday. My little ears perk up and I was like, "When did you start calling a synagogue a shul?"

It seems she has become very best friends with an Orthodox Jewish girl. Not only is my daughter hanging out with the girl all the time, but... get this... plans are in the preliminary stages for her to move in with her friend's family.

I swear I had nothing to do with this! It all happened without me even KNOWING about it! What are the odds? What are the odds? You know, stuff like this, strange coincidental stuff that has pulled me closer to Judaism has happened to me my whole life. But now, it's happening to my DAUGHTER????? Gentiles make friends with Jews. But they don't make friends with Orthodox Jews who invite them to come live in their home.

There is just something about this whole thing that is choreographed somehow. Anyone wanna try to convince me that something isn't going on here that's bigger than what I can see and recognize? I may not understand what's happening, but I sure as heck know SOMETHING is going on.

[ChavaK]

I just got off the phone with my daughter who is 19 (and whom I miss so very much!) To understand the shock of this phone call, you must understand that my daughter is a VERY devout Catholic. It was only a year ago she even brought up the possibility of becoming a nun. It goes way beyond just attending Mass regularly for this girl.

Well, she mentioned she was going to go to shul with a friend this Friday. My little ears perk up and I was like, "When did you start calling a synagogue a shul?"

It seems she has become very best friends with an Orthodox Jewish girl. Not only is my daughter hanging out with the girl all the time, but... get this... plans are in the preliminary stages for her to move in with her friend's family.

I swear I had nothing to do with this! It all happened without me even KNOWING about it! What are the odds? What are the odds? You know, stuff like this, strange coincidental stuff that has pulled me closer to Judaism has happened to me my whole life. But now, it's happening to my DAUGHTER????? Gentiles make friends with Jews. But they don't make friends with Orthodox Jews who invite them to come live in their home.

There is just something about this whole thing that is choreographed somehow. Anyone wanna try to convince me that something isn't going on here that's bigger than what I can see and recognize? I may not understand what's happening, but I sure as heck know SOMETHING is going on.

I guess I fail to see the connection....this is a non-messianic Orthodox Jewish family? Then the odds
are if you daughter lives with them, she is going to
have her faith challanged and perhaps discard her
old beliefs. It also seems very strange that an
Ortho family would have a non-Jew move in...
are there extenuating circumstances?

[TheRabbi]

I don't find that strange at all. I have had non-Jews stay with me temporarily. They can be big help on Shabbos:thumbsup:

[GerTzedek]

I don't find that strange at all. I have had non-Jews stay with me temporarily. They can be big help on Shabbos:thumbsup:
har har, very funny. :D

[GerTzedek]

I guess I fail to see the connection....this is a non-messianic Orthodox Jewish family? Then the odds
are if you daughter lives with them, she is going to
have her faith challanged and perhaps discard her
old beliefs. It also seems very strange that an
Ortho family would have a non-Jew move in...
are there extenuating circumstances?

Yes, this is a non-Messianic Jewish family. I don't know how observant they are. I only know the shul is Orthodox. The Jewish daughter is certainly very religious. My own daughter has known other Jews before, but they've mainly been Reform, and she isn't really attracted to unreligious people. (Very like her mother in this regard).

First, LIFE ITSELF challenges our beliefs. Most of us have to deal with an enormous amount of challenge from the common culture ALL THE TIME. She's had non-Christian friends her whole life -- she chooses people for their moral character, not their belief set. The "fab five" circle of friends she grew up with were two Muslims, a Mormon, and an Evangelical (Miryam being the fifth). It's not like this is the first time she has been exposed to other beliefs.

Second, let's say for a moment she does lose her faith in Yeshua as Messiah because of her involvement with Orthodoxy. That is not the big thing for me that it might be for most Yeshua-believers. I would feel a little sad that she has become confused regarding Him. But its not like her salvation is threatened.

There are no extenuating circumstances that I am aware of. The girls simply appear to have become extremely close.

[Lulav]

Second, let's say for a moment she does lose her faith in Yeshua as Messiah because of her involvement with Orthodoxy. That is not the big thing for me that it might be for most Yeshua-believers. I would feel a little sad that she has become confused regarding Him. But its not like her salvation is threatened. It wouldn't be? :confused:

[GerTzedek]

It wouldn't be? :confused:
Nope. Not in the slightest.

[français]

Nope. Not in the slightest.
Why not?

Anyways, that is great she is moving in with an Orthodox family! Even though I disagree with Orthodox on a lot of political issues (homosexuality mainly) I LOVE the Orthodox Jewish culture, and would love to see it more prominent and widespread throughout the Jewish communities :)

[Lulav]

Nope. Not in the slightest.So you disregard the words of Yeshua himself?

"Whoever acknowledges me in the presence of others I will also acknowledge in the presence of my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others I will disown before my Father in heaven."

[Torah613]

Ger, I am glad to hear this. It should be an interesting experience for your daughter.

Any ortho families out there want to adopt me? (seriously I could use the break in rent ;) )

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Second, let's say for a moment she does lose her faith in Yeshua as Messiah because of her involvement with Orthodoxy. That is not the big thing for me that it might be for most Yeshua-believers. I would feel a little sad that she has become confused regarding Him. But its not like her salvation is threatened.


This is the first time I have hear a messianic state
this- so one does not have to accept Jesus as
moshiach in order to "be saved"?
Keep us updated on her adventures...:)

[BereanTodd]

I'm with Lulav on this, how can one deny and reject Yeshua and still be saved?

[ChazakEmunah]

This is the first time I have hear a messianic state
this- so one does not have to accept Jesus as
moshiach in order to "be saved"?
Keep us updated on her adventures...:)
Ger, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Chava, I think Ger is unique in that she understands that so long as a Jew observes the mitzvot of the Torah, and a non-Jew observes the Sheva Mitzvot, their sins will be atoned for. She does not believe that a person needs to believe in anyone in order for their sins to be atoned.

[HaNotsri]

I would feel a little sad that she has become confused regarding Him. But its not like her salvation is threatened.

:help:

[GerTzedek]

So you disregard the words of Yeshua himself?
Let's just say that I don't ignore that verse, but I see it in a larger context.

[GerTzedek]

This is the first time I have hear a messianic state
this- so one does not have to accept Jesus as
moshiach in order to "be saved"?
Keep us updated on her adventures...:)

You have read me correctly. A person does NOT need to accept Jesus as moshiach to be "saved." That is the short answer.

There are exceptions to the rule for gentiles: those who i.e. have never heard of Jesus are not automatically damned. Someone who is mentally retarded is not going to go to hell. Ignorance and confusion simply are not sins.

Further, there is a sweeping exception for Jews -- "All Israel will be saved." It irritates me when people try to make that "All" mean anything BUT "All." Paul is QUITE clear: Jews are of the elect -- they are beloved for the sake of the Patriarchs. I have these verses quoted in my signature tagline for good reason!

When I talk to my friends who are Rabbinical Jews, my ASSUMPTION is that they will have a share in the world to come (we are talking Jews who honor their covenant, not the Howard Stearns of the world, of course). I think they have not yet figured out that Yeshua is their Messiah. But to be quite honest, they are not the spiritually needy people that Christians so often make them out to be. Many of them have deeper devotion to HaShem and a richer relationships with Him than the average Christian.

Oh, and ChavaK, it's not just me. This is what is taught at my MJ synagogue. And I don't mean just mentioned off-handedly -- the rabbi there makes it a point to teach his congregation that rabbinical Jews know G-d, are not spiritually needy, and will have a share in the world to come.

So it really wouldn't bother me if my daughter became a Rabbinical Jew. In fact, my personal preference is I'd rather her be a Rabbinical Jew than a Protestant. But it's not my decision. It's hers. She'll find her own way.

[GerTzedek]

Ger, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Chava, I think Ger is unique in that she understands that so long as a Jew observes the mitzvot of the Torah, and a non-Jew observes the Sheva Mitzvot, their sins will be atoned for. She does not believe that a person needs to believe in anyone in order for their sins to be atoned.
True belief is represented by actions, not words. Words are far too cheap. It's easy to assent to creeds. Salvation has little if anything to do with assent to creeds. The truth DOES matter -- it's important to try to get our information straight. But G-d doesn't send us to hell for being morons, and human beings are SOOO ignorant and messed up. Hell is for those who refuse heaven: if they spend the seventy some-odd years of this life on earth avoiding HaShem, He is certainly not going to force Himself on them for all eternity.

I believe CS Lewis articulates (and perhaps even taught me) this belief best in his account of the Calorman in his book, The Last Battle. The Calorman soldier had grown up in a country that worshiped the god Tash. Tash was quite a demonic being, but this soldier didn't know that. when the Calorman ends up in Aslan's Country (eternity) and actually meets both Aslan and Tash for the first time, he realizes immediately his mistake, for he loves Aslan.

He is shocked that Aslan will not destroy him as he destroyed Tash. Aslan explains that because Tash is evil, no act of goodness can be done for him. Rather, all goodness is done for Aslan. The Calorman may have THOUGHT he served Tash all his life, but the deeper, richer, REALER truth was that he had always served Aslan.

Lord, when were you hungry and we fed you? Or naked and we clothed you? When were you sick or in prison and we visited you? In as much as you did it unto the least of these my brethren, you did it unto me.

What was the ONLY difference between the sheep and the goats? What they did and didn't DO!

That is the gospel according to Yeshua.

Whoever loves, knows G-d, for G-d is love.

Okay, I gotta stop, or I'll spend an hour typing in verses. You get the point.

[visionary]

Twelves gates into the City.

[Tishri1]

It wouldn't be? :confused:I second that emocon:confused:

[Torah613]

hmm. This seems a bit strange from what I'm used to hearing from christian folk, but it makes infinitly more sense.

Yochanan

[GerTzedek]

hmm. This seems a bit strange from what I'm used to hearing from christian folk, but it makes infinitly more sense.

Yochanan
I am a believer in Yeshua, but I am not a Christian.

[Henaynei]

I am a believer in Yeshua, but I am not a Christian. as am I, and a few others who habitually haunt these precincts ;)