Only Conservatives post here. Abortions.. what do you believe?

[D'Ann]

Greetings my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ,

I was wondering if we could get an idea as to what we believe regarding abortion. Please no debate. I want this thread to help us all understand what each other believes in this area. I don't want to get into who is right or wrong... just want us all to grow in understanding and learning what we all believe regarding this serious issue.

I'm sure that some of us probably all have different interpretations of this issue and that is okay, if we can express what we believe as Christians and why from our heart.

Also, this thread is not to be a put down to those who have had abortions either. If anything, I pray that somehow, if someone has had an abortion, that we don't do more damage to their heart and soul by judging them with harsh and hurtful words, but with compassion.

So if you have had an abortion and would like to open up about the whys, ifs and buts to help us all gain a better way of showing love and compassion and understanding, that would be truly welcomed in Christ.

I think this thread could be used to open up doors of the hearts... and bond us closer together. That is my goal, so please, no debating or belittling and telling someone anything negative.

If it does start to go down hill, I will then request that the thread be closed because I don't want to see anyone be hurt.

God's Love and Peace to ALL.

Deb

[Voegelin]

I do not believe a case can be made Christianity tolerates abortion. I do not believe a case can be made Christians can side step the problem as some try to do by saying they personally oppose abortion but.....

Your comment about hurting those who have had an abortion is spot on. I've read the abortion recovery sub-forum and it just tears you up. The poor women. Guys can walk away (often when they were the one who pushed a women to have an abortion) but for women its always there. But then the most powerful testiment to the faith I've seen comes from women who have had abortions and found God. I know several and they are absolutely healed. Sometimes you see people become imbued with faith and then it fades. These women's faith does not. It is there and it is permanent. From years, sometimes decades, of anguish and self-loathing to tranquilty and peace. Just like that. That is not some chemical thing in the brain or just getting older and having the pain and guilt of the abortion fade. It is God.

[Albion]

Greetings my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ,

I was wondering if we could get an idea as to what we believe regarding abortion. Please no debate. I want this thread to help us all understand what each other believes in this area. I don't want to get into who is right or wrong... just want us all to grow in understanding and learning what we all believe regarding this serious issue.

I'm sure that some of us probably all have different interpretations of this issue and that is okay, if we can express what we believe as Christians and why from our heart.

Also, this thread is not to be a put down to those who have had abortions either. If anything, I pray that somehow, if someone has had an abortion, that we don't do more damage to their heart and soul by judging them with harsh and hurtful words, but with compassion.

So if you have had an abortion and would like to open up about the whys, ifs and buts to help us all gain a better way of showing love and compassion and understanding, that would be truly welcomed in Christ.

I think this thread could be used to open up doors of the hearts... and bond us closer together. That is my goal, so please, no debating or belittling and telling someone anything negative.

If it does start to go down hill, I will then request that the thread be closed because I don't want to see anyone be hurt.

God's Love and Peace to ALL.

Deb

I believe that abortion is morally wrong because it kills an innocent human. For that reason, abortion is also a socio-political matter.

[synger]

I believe that abortion as a form of birth control is immoral and should not be legal. There are SO many other forms of birth control nowadays, that to rely on abortion as birth control is unconscionable.

I also believe that there need to be exceptions allowed for circumstances, like victims of abuse and rape, or when the mother's health is compromised by the pregnancy. We need to be compassionate to those who cannot control their pregnancies.

The issue of abortificants as birth control (the "morning after" pill and such), is a more difficult issue, I think. I see them as along the lines of wearing an IUD... where you do not destroy the fetus so much as you prevent it from finding a purchase in the uterine lining. I think these will probably continue to be personal choices.

[Miss Shelby]

Murder. There really isn't a need to expound much beyond that, and there isn't another word for it.

[Epiphanygirl]

To me, I think it is one of the saddest actions facing the world today, and its not just the abortion mills here in America, what goes on in India and China rips my heart out.......IMO, it is the biggest Christian moral question of our generation.
I understand that there is a difference with a woman who has ectopic pregnancy that will surely kill her, that is sad in itself, I think these women want there babies....
Most grievous are the situations of " I don't wnat the baby, the baby will ruin my life" and its just done away with, discarded like trash........then the after effects you see these women go through:sigh: the regret, the shame.....Lord have mercy:crossrc: heal the hearts and bodies of the women who have gone through this.

[Addicted2~Jesus]

Sinful, shameful, an wholeheartedly dispicable practice. It's as been said murder of the innocent, an the damage doesn't stop there, the mother suffers as well an its a life long disaster from there. Should not be legal, should not be done, an I believe it should never be done, regardless of the circumstances, which I admit is an easy thin for me to say, not havin been faced wit a situation of havin to choose, I would jes pray I chose correctly.

[Father Rick]

I'm "pro-life", not "anti-abortion".

By that, I mean that life is sacred, as it is a gift from God, and should be protected if at all possible-- and that is an issue much greater than just abortion.

If it were just a matter of "abortion is murder since it's killing innocents", then it would be ok to assissinate the abortion doctors (as some have done) since the doctors aren't innocent and killing them would save other lives.

There are also those extremely rare cases (primarily etopic pregnancies, where the fetus actually attaches in the fallopian tubes instead of the uterus) where there is no possibility of the baby living, yet continuing the pregnancy will almost certainly be fatal to the mother as well. In such cases, the goal would be to protect as much life as possible (which may mean taking the baby in order to save the mother)... if you can't save both, at least save one.

[Miss Shelby]

I'm "pro-life", not "anti-abortion". Due respect, this is a big load of poop Rick. I hear deranged liberals tout this crud all of the time but I would have expected more from a priest.

[twistedsketch]

That unborn child is human, and it's kind of pathetic what the mental gymnastics are among those who insist otherwise. Furthermore, I cannot respect the position of "I'm against abortion but it should be legal." This is the taking of an innocent life. If you're going to have that stance, you had better be a full-blown anarchist, since only then would you be consistent. Finally, letting murderers and rapists off with life in prison or less while killing the unborn in a manner so savage that it could not be legally applied to said murderers and rapists is one of the gravest injustices in the Western world.

I believe that abortion as a form of birth control is immoral and should not be legal. There are SO many other forms of birth control nowadays, that to rely on abortion as birth control is unconscionable.
You make a very good point. The popular argument for keeping abortion legal is "What about rape and incest?" While terrible, and while such terrible circumstances do not make the child any less human, abortions for these reasons are less than 1% of all abortions according to Illinois Right To Life. While those who have been raped need special care and consideration, abortion on demand for this reason is a cop-out. When 95% of abortions are simply for birth control reasons (the rest going to health of the mother, 3%, and fetal abnormalities, 1%) making such a claim is disingenuous.

[twistedsketch]

If it were just a matter of "abortion is murder since it's killing innocents", then it would be ok to assissinate the abortion doctors (as some have done) since the doctors aren't innocent and killing them would save other lives.
That's bull. Most of the pro-life movement does not condone violence against these so-called doctors.


There are also those extremely rare cases (primarily etopic pregnancies, where the fetus actually attaches in the fallopian tubes instead of the uterus) where there is no possibility of the baby living, yet continuing the pregnancy will almost certainly be fatal to the mother as well. In such cases, the goal would be to protect as much life as possible (which may mean taking the baby in order to save the mother)... if you can't save both, at least save one.
This I agree with. However, it is possible to protect such procedures legally while denying abortion as a form of birth control. This is what must be done.

[Father Rick]

Due respect, this is a big load of poop Rick. I hear deranged liberals tout this crud all of the time but I would have expected more from a priest.
So... are you only "anti-abortion" and feel euthanasia is acceptable? Or the killing of abortion doctors?

All I said is that the issue is bigger than just abortion... and that I am pro-life across the board.
That's bull. Most of the pro-life movement does not condone violence against these so-called doctors. I agree that they don't... nor should they. I never said they do....

I simply said that my "pro-life" stance is bigger than JUST the issue of abortion.


This I agree with. However, it is possible to protect such procedures legally while denying abortion as a form of birth control. This is what must be done.I agree here as well...


You know, I never thought people would make such an issue of a statement that is so strongly pro-life.

[Miss Shelby]

So... are you only "anti-abortion" and feel euthanasia is acceptable? Or the killing of abortion doctors?
This is all bob and weave Rick and I don't even know what sense you're trying to make.

Abortion is wrong because it's the taking of innocent life.

And I CANNOT even believe you tried to compare and ectopic pregnancy with abortion. That fails, totally. And please do not make me explain to you why that logic fails.

[Hentenza]

The OP requested that no debating or belittling of opinions take place in this thread. Please honor the request.

[Simon_Templar]

I believe abortion is murder. Plain and simple. No if ands or buts.

Supporting abortion, in my opinion, is no different than supporting legalized murder so long as it targets only one specific demographic.

[Epiphanygirl]

Prayer for the Helpless Unborn

Heavenly Father, in Your love for us, protect against the wickness of the devil, those helpless little ones to whom You have given the gift of life.
Touch with pity the hearts of those women pregnant in our world today who are not thinking of motherhood.
Help them to see that the child they carry is made in Your image, as well as theirs, made for eternal life.
Dispel their fear and selfishness and give them true womanly hearts to love their babies and give them birth and all the needed care that a mother alone can give.
We ask this through Jesus Christ, Your Son, Our Lord, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, forever and ever.
Amen:crossrc:

[Father Rick]

This is all bob and weave Rick and I don't even know what sense you're trying to make.

Abortion is wrong because it's the taking of innocent life.

And I CANNOT even believe you tried to compare and ectopic pregnancy with abortion. That fails, totally. And please do not make me explain to you why that logic fails.
You're either completely misunderstanding what I said...

Or trying to twist what I said into something I never intended.

All I said is that my "pro-life" stance is bigger than just the issue of abortion (which I believe is completely wrong)... it also extends to all other areas. I also am pro-life in the areas of euthanasia, murder, etc. I believe that taking a life for any reason other than to save and protect another life is wrong -such as cases of self-defense, defending one's family against an intruder, etc.... or cases such as the etopic pregnancy I mentioned.

I mentioned the etopic pregnancy actually as a response to a previous post saying abortion is acceptable in cases of rape, etc.-- which I disagree with. I think that the ONLY case for the taking of the life of an unborn baby is when failure to do so would be fatal to the mother (and those cases are extremely rare--etopic pregancies being about the only case).

[Miss Shelby]

Then, if I understand you correctly Father Rick, why is it necessary that you even make the qualifier that you're not anti abortion?

[porterross]

Life begins at conception. We must trust in God's will beyond that instance for the welfare of both child and mother. ANY termination of the life which exists in the womb is murder. :pray:

[synger]

I believe that abortion may be a necessary medical response to an emergency. Like ectopic pregnancy. At that point, I do not think it should be legislated, but be a decision by the woman and her family and the doctor. It's a hard line to discern. My husband and I have talked about it, especially when I had such a high risk pregnancy. After prayerfully considering, we decided that if I were at risk we would consider it, and that if the child were abnormal we would not. That is the line we determined for our family.

But that is usually not the "choice" women make. The topic of abortion ranges from abortion-as-birth-control to abortion-as-emergency-procedure, and all the variations between.

[Father Rick]

Then, if I understand you correctly Father Rick, why is it necessary that you even make the qualifier that you're not anti abortion?
You're taking half of a sentence out of context.

My whole point was that my pro-life stance is bigger than JUST being anti-abortion.

I know some who claim to be "pro-life" yet have tunnel vision on just the abortion issue-- and can't see/understand that abortion is a symptom of a much bigger issue. (This is why we see radicals bombing abortion clinics and the like).

[synger]

Interestingly, "pro-life" is used primarily in abortion discussions, but it entails a lot more. How one views euthanasia, whether one actively supports adoption, even how one views military service, can all be part of a "pro-life" discussion.

Some of those can be rather dicey when Christians of various camps come together. Imagine a Quaker conscientious objector and a career military Baptist discussing the morality of military service.

Perhaps I think about this more because my pastor was an Army chaplain for so many years. He is much less like Father Mulcahy from MASH than I expected. (since MASH was my only half-formed idea of what a chaplain might be like. *grins*) Talking about military service with him has been eye-opening.

[porterross]

I believe that abortion may be a necessary medical response to an emergency. Like ectopic pregnancy. At that point, I do not think it should be legislated, but be a decision by the woman and her family and the doctor. It's a hard line to discern. My husband and I have talked about it, especially when I had such a high risk pregnancy. After prayerfully considering, we decided that if I were at risk we would consider it, and that if the child were abnormal we would not. That is the line we determined for our family.

But that is usually not the "choice" women make. The topic of abortion ranges from abortion-as-birth-control to abortion-as-emergency-procedure, and all the variations between.


Hence my use of the term WOMB.

[sevenwhiskers]

I always find this one hard because while it may be "easy" to object to someone simply choosing to have an abortion because being pregnant isn't 'convenient' for them, or because they don't feel that they could raise a child (hi, adoption?) or other similar reasons...... there are other situations..

say you have a 13 year old girl who becomes pregnant due to a violent rape -- can it really be 'right' to force that child to continue with the pregnancy? what if doing so is going to cause irreparable harm to her emotionally? what if she's now going to try extremely dangerous methods to rid herself of the baby on her own? do we lock her up somewhere and force her to remain pregnant at any and all cost?

what of the woman who is told by her doctor that she faces serious medical risk, possible death, if she tries to carry a pregnancy to term? is it 'right' to force her to risk her life to have that baby?

sure, in an ideal world neither of those situations would happen - but, we don't live in an ideal world... young girls (and older, just using the younger as my example, it could just as easily be a 37 year old woman in that situation) are raped and become pregnant... woman do find out that a pregnancy may risk their life for whatever medical reason....

i don't know... when i consider situations like those, i can't sit and say "it's wrong" ... because forcing those people (in my examples) to continue with their pregnancy also feels 'wrong'......

i can't label myself as anything really... i'm not "pro-life at all costs", but i'm also not "pro-choice no matter what" ......

*thoughtful*

[BelindaP]

I'm not completely convinced that life begins at conception. In many places, the Bible makes it clear that life is in the blood. An embryo doesn't have blood until somewhere around the 2nd to 4th week. That being the case, I think the morning after pill and IUDs are a matter of conscience and best left up to a woman, her family, and her doctor.

Other than that, I consider abortion to be wrong except to save the life of the mother. However, forcing a young girl who has been molested or raped to carry a child to term also seems wrong imo. Again, it is a decision best not legislated, rather it should be between the girl, her family and God.

[Rhamiel]

abortion is a form of legal murder, it is horrible, I like how Fr.Rick put it, this is more then just abortion, we have to be pro-life in every matter.
I hear people mention rape as an exception, I do not understand this, the sins of the father are not the sins of the son, you are still murdering a child.
If the mothers life is in danger then that would be the only time an abortion would be exceptable, the goal would not be to abort the child but to save the mother, the goal can never be to end a childs life. This is when the mothers life is threatened, every pergnancy comes with some health concerns

[Rhamiel]

In acient Rome, a father could decide to leave a child out in the wilderness if the offspring was deemed unexceptable, this is seen as barabric, no civilized nation views the right of a father to let a child die as a personal choice but we let the mothers use active force to kill babies

[BelindaP]

Thanks for the lovely rep comment nyj. I wish you had the courage to say that in open forum. Oh, yeah. It would be a flame.

[porterross]

I always find this one hard because while it may be "easy" to object to someone simply choosing to have an abortion because being pregnant isn't 'convenient' for them, or because they don't feel that they could raise a child (hi, adoption?) or other similar reasons...... there are other situations..

say you have a 13 year old girl who becomes pregnant due to a violent rape -- can it really be 'right' to force that child to continue with the pregnancy? what if doing so is going to cause irreparable harm to her emotionally? what if she's now going to try extremely dangerous methods to rid herself of the baby on her own? do we lock her up somewhere and force her to remain pregnant at any and all cost?

what of the woman who is told by her doctor that she faces serious medical risk, possible death, if she tries to carry a pregnancy to term? is it 'right' to force her to risk her life to have that baby?

sure, in an ideal world neither of those situations would happen - but, we don't live in an ideal world... young girls (and older, just using the younger as my example, it could just as easily be a 37 year old woman in that situation) are raped and become pregnant... woman do find out that a pregnancy may risk their life for whatever medical reason....

i don't know... when i consider situations like those, i can't sit and say "it's wrong" ... because forcing those people (in my examples) to continue with their pregnancy also feels 'wrong'......

i can't label myself as anything really... i'm not "pro-life at all costs", but i'm also not "pro-choice no matter what" ......

*thoughtful*


Yeah, I was thinking only in terms of birth control for adults and as the mother of a 13 year old girl, the scenario you give is especially frightening. I feel deeply for anyone put in such situations and would not think it was my place to give an opinion either way on their decision. :pray:

My BIL was an OB-GYN in Dallas and the cases he had to face were heartbreaking and I'm talking about women who did everything BUT abort their child by living recklessly while pregnant and then obviously not caring one way or the other about the child's welfare after they were born.

I can tell you that after several terms on a grand jury, that the offenses against children outside the womb are just as heartbreaking as abortion. Unfortunately, there are too many people who see children as expendable and almost disposable because they take for granted that they have or can have plenty of others.

We shouldn't cease to pray for all children of the world who are seen as inconveniences. Lord, in your mercy, hear our prayer. :crossrc:

[No Swansong]

I'm not completely convinced that life begins at conception. In many places, the Bible makes it clear that life is in the blood. An embryo doesn't have blood until somewhere around the 2nd to 4th week. That being the case, I think the morning after pill and IUDs are a matter of conscience and best left up to a woman, her family, and her doctor.

Other than that, I consider abortion to be wrong except to save the life of the mother. However, forcing a young girl who has been molested or raped to carry a child to term also seems wrong imo. Again, it is a decision best not legislated, rather it should be between the girl, her family and God.
BelindaP respectfully I think just a week or so ago you asserted that you are in agreement with the CC statement of beliefs and rules which must be done in order to be added to the membership of the board. It states in part.


"The sanctity of human life. Human life begins at conception and ends when the body can no longer naturally sustain itself. Human life can not be ended prematurely without just cause and just authority to do so. This includes most cases of abortion and euthanasia."


How does your comment agree with this statement?

[BelindaP]

I said I wasn't completely convinced. I have sound, scriptural reasons for my doubt.

[Miss Shelby]

I'm not completely convinced that life begins at conception. In many places, the Bible makes it clear that life is in the blood. An embryo doesn't have blood until somewhere around the 2nd to 4th week. That being the case, I think the morning after pill and IUDs are a matter of conscience and best left up to a woman, her family, and her doctor.


wow you sound like a liberal.

[GreenMunchkin]

The sanctity of human life. Human life begins at conception and ends when the body can no longer naturally sustain itself. Human life can not be ended prematurely without just cause and just authority to do so.Personally speaking, I believe what our SoF says.

[nyj]

I said I wasn't completely convinced. I have sound, scriptural reasons for my doubt.
The forum rules on membership are clear. Why you think you don't have to abide by them is anyone's guess.

[No Swansong]

You may have sound Biblical evidence in your opinion but you still are not fully in agreement with the statement of beliefs. I point this out not as an attack upon you. I am very fond of you. But the words "begins at conception" were very carefully thought out and chosen. If you feel that life does not or even may not begin at conception regardless of whether you feel you have Biblical support you do not truly accept our statement of beliefs.

[Rhamiel]

hay come on people, everyone has doubts
but no other form of murder is left up to individual morality, I can't say, "I talked to my doctor and prayed about it and I think it is ok to kill my mailman" I would get thrown in prison for that

[BelindaP]

So, we aren't even allowed to doubt the statement of beliefs. Unbelievable.

How many here have never doubted the very existance of God while being members here? Do you sign out every time you have a doubtful thought? Sheesh.

[Rhamiel]

Belinda, don't let it bring you down, everyone has doubts

[No Swansong]

For the record I fully support our statement of beliefs

Some comments
Concerning the ectopic pregnancy issue. This is clearly a matter of self-defense, which would always result in two deaths if not ended.

Concerning the 13 year old scenario. While this is a tragic situation, the pregnancy probably will not physically present a serious possibility of death. This child can and should be cared for and nurtured but I still disagree with an abortion.

[No Swansong]

I guess my question would be did you assent to belief in the statement of beliefs while having these doubts? Since it was very recent I would guess that you did, but of course that would only be a guess.

[BelindaP]

That's my point. I don't disagree with the statement of beliefs, but I am reconsidering my view on where life begins--based upon what scripture tells me.

Now, if I make up my mind that life doesn't begin at conception, I'll leave. I'd rather follow what the Bible says than be a member of a forum that insists I believe something in conflict with it.

[Miss Shelby]

That's my point. I don't disagree with the statement of beliefs, but I am reconsidering my view on where life begins--based upon what scripture tells me.

Now, if I make up my mind that life doesn't begin at conception, I'll leave. I'd rather follow what the Bible says than be a member of a forum that insists I believe something in conflict with it.
The bible says I knew you when I knitted you in the womb. So now what do you suppose? Suppose God just happens by some wombs through pure dumb luck and sees a fetus already growing and thinks to himself, welp, 'By golly! I better get to knitting before this kid's in third grade!!' Or do you think maybe it might just work a little bit differently than that? How is the Bible confusing you on this issue?

[Albion]

So, we aren't even allowed to doubt the statement of beliefs.

Of course you are. That doesn't translate into speaking against the forum's principles, does it?
Unbelievable. How many here have never doubted the very existance of God while being members here? Do you sign out every time you have a doubtful thought? Sheesh.
If I had those doubts, I would let a thread go by without me contributing an opposition POV when it asks, explicitly, for Conservative opinion (as this one does).

[Nadiine]

The bible says I knew you when I knitted you in the womb. So now what do you suppose? Suppose God just happens by some wombs through pure dumb luck and sees a fetus already growing and thinks to himself, welp, 'By golly! I better get to knitting before this kid's in third grade!!' Or do you think maybe it might just work a little bit differently than that? How is the Bible confusing you on this issue?
Hey, we think alike, I just shared that verse in the venting thread where belinda just posted a vent on this.
(which led me here)....
how much SOONER can you get to being known by God BEFORE being formed in the womb???
:scratch: :swoon:

[No Swansong]

The bible says I knew you when I knitted you in the womb. So now what do you suppose? Suppose God just happens by some wombs through pure dumb luck and sees a fetus already growing and thinks to himself, welp, 'By golly! I better get to knitting before this kid's in third grade!!' Or do you think maybe it might just work a little bit differently than that? How is the Bible confusing you on this issue?
I believe she is referring to the scripture that says that the life is in the blood. I can understand the confusion. My question though was did this doubt exist when our friend BelindaP asserted she was in agreement with our statement of beliefs?

[BelindaP]

I did do so. However, my standards for my behavior are sometimes different from my theological musings. For my part, I would never consider use of the morning after pill or an IUD for myself. I guess you could say that my behavior 100% reflects the statement of beliefs in spite of my own doubts on the subject.

[Nadiine]

That's my point. I don't disagree with the statement of beliefs, but I am reconsidering my view on where life begins--based upon what scripture tells me.

Now, if I make up my mind that life doesn't begin at conception, I'll leave. I'd rather follow what the Bible says than be a member of a forum that insists I believe something in conflict with it.
maybe this is why you fit in so comfortably with the liberal forum

[BelindaP]

I can see that some are awfully eager to see me out of here--and you're derailing D'Ann's thread to do it.

[BelindaP]

Nadiine, can it.

[Lisa0315]

I am 100% against abortion in all cases. This includes cases of incest, rape, and the life of the mother.

That does not mean that I do not have compassion but that I believe all life is precious.

Lisa

[nyj]

I'd rather follow what the Bible says than be a member of a forum that insists I believe something in conflict with it.If this is what you think, then sadly you've missed the entire point of this forum. This forum isn't here to insist that people believe things that they think come in conflict with Scripture. It's for people who already have like-minded views on Scripture. They are two totally different things. If you think you might feel the same way, then you mingle and learn. If you feel you do hold the same views, you become a member. If you feel you don't, then simple enough ... you don't join.

And to set the record straight, my rep to you (re: post #25 of this thread) was: And this is why you are NOT a conservative christian. That's not a flame, your comment is directly opposed to the CC statement of belief in regards to abortion.

[Miss Shelby]

And to set the record straight, my rep to you (re: post #25 of this thread) was: and this is why you are NOT a conservative. That's not a flame, your comment is directly opposed to the CC statement of belief in regards to abortion.
this is what Belinda thinks you don't have courage to post in the open? tee. She doesn't know you very well.

Sing this to the tune of 'cool operator' she's a smooth exaggerator, smoothe exaaaaagerator.

[Albion]

If this is what you think, then sadly you've missed the entire point of this forum. This forum isn't here to insist that people believe things that they think come in conflict with Scripture. It's for people who have like-minded views on Scripture. They are two totally different things.

And to set the record straight, my rep to you (re: post #25 of this thread) was: and this is why you are NOT a conservative. That's not a flame, your comment is directly opposed to the CC statement of belief in regards to abortion.

I'd say it's more a matter of like-minded views on Christian beliefs. We do not all have the same views about scripture, and it doesn't matter, for purposes of forum membership, so long our views are traditional and within the bounds of the rest of the statement.

However, I "second" your basic message.

[Lisa0315]

Can we please not make attacks personal? Yes, I am very, extremely, vilely guilty of it myself. I am going to stop. I signed back in today and I have purposed in my heart to not ever do that again. Please, can we debate this without getting personal.

My philosophy from here on out is to report rather than respond to flames. Okay? I am going to report every flame I see.

Lisa

[nyj]

I'd say it's more a matter of like-minded views on Christian beliefs. We do not all have the same views about scripture, and it doesn't matter, for purposes of forum membership, so long our views are traditional and within the bounds of the rest of the statement.Good point, and I agree.

[Nadiine]

I can see that some are awfully eager to see me out of here--and you're derailing D'Ann's thread to do it.
are you accusing D'Ann of setting up this thread TO remove you???

If so, why did you even answer with such a statement??

(and do you think everything revolves around you??)

[Epiphanygirl]

I'd say it's more a matter of like-minded views on Christian beliefs. We do not all have the same views about scripture, and it doesn't matter, for purposes of forum membership, so long our views are traditional and within the bounds of the rest of the statement.

However, I "second" your basic message.
:thumbsup: I totally agree with you on this!

[Nadiine]

If this is what you think, then sadly you've missed the entire point of this forum. This forum isn't here to insist that people believe things that they think come in conflict with Scripture. It's for people who already have like-minded views on Scripture. They are two totally different things. If you think you might feel the same way, then you mingle and learn. If you feel you do hold the same views, you become a member. If you feel you don't, then simple enough ... you don't join.

And to set the record straight, my rep to you (re: post #25 of this thread) was: And this is why you are NOT a conservative christian. That's not a flame, your comment is directly opposed to the CC statement of belief in regards to abortion.
:thumbsup: this is why my post said what it did, "this is why you fit so comfortably in the liberal forum"

[nyj]

are you accusing D'Ann of setting up this thread TO remove you???No, she's not saying that.

She's trying to shift the focus away from her statement which is in clear contradiction of the CC forums statement of beliefs. Honestly, the honorable thing to do at this point, IMO, is for her to rescind her membership. If she does so, it can most certainly end promptly and peaceably.

[Miss Shelby]

Can we please not make attacks personal?Yeah, you're right. I was just having a little fun at the expense of others, sometimes I can't help myself, but I don't mean anything by it really. I just wanted to put that awful tune into peeps heads cause it's in mine. I'll be nice. If not you can put me on leash.

[No Swansong]

I can see that some are awfully eager to see me out of here--and you're derailing D'Ann's thread to do it.
If you count me as among those who wish to see you out you are mistaken. That is not my intent at all, but the founder of this forum (he fought for it for over a year) wanted a place where those who were like minded on very specific issues could gather to discuss these issues without having to lay down a background. I was quick to welcome you to the forum and I do appreciate reading your point of view, but I can also understand the argument of those who feel that you may have joined disingenuously especially considering that you have admitted you have doubts about one of the most important issues surrounding the foundation of this board considering the fact that you just affirmed agreement with the statement of faith just within the past week or so. Do you not see why some may wonder about this?

[Nadiine]

Can we please not make attacks personal? Yes, I am very, extremely, vilely guilty of it myself. I am going to stop. I signed back in today and I have purposed in my heart to not ever do that again. Please, can we debate this without getting personal.

My philosophy from here on out is to report rather than respond to flames. Okay? I am going to report every flame I see.

Lisa
Yes but it MITE help if she didn't make a comment as if D'Ann made the thread on purpose as if it was some conspiracy to trip her up
(then falls into the trap)......??? :scratch:

[Epiphanygirl]

Yeah, you're right. I was just having a little fun at the expense of others, sometimes I can't help myself, but I don't mean anything by it really. I just wanted to put that awful tune into peeps heads cause it's in mine. I'll be nice. If not you can put me on leash.
Ya big meanie;) .....No need to ask.....he's a smooth operator....smooth operator,,,,,,,,sax solo.................

[No Swansong]

are you accusing D'Ann of setting up this thread TO remove you???

If so, why did you even answer with such a statement??

(and do you think everything revolves around you??)
Nadine I don't think that is what she meant at all. Let's be cautious in making assumptions.

[No Swansong]

No, she's not saying that.

She's trying to shift the focus away from her statement which is in clear contradiction of the CC forums statement of beliefs. Honestly, the honorable thing to do at this point, IMO, is for her to rescind her membership. If she does so, it can most certainly end promptly and peaceably.
Perhaps instead of calling for her to rescind her membership we can discuss the issue with her. I certainly didn't bring this up to have her removed.

[twistedsketch]

I'm not completely convinced that life begins at conception. In many places, the Bible makes it clear that life is in the blood. An embryo doesn't have blood until somewhere around the 2nd to 4th week. That being the case, I think the morning after pill and IUDs are a matter of conscience and best left up to a woman, her family, and her doctor.
Psalm 139:13-16 is good enough for me. God gives life and purpose to humans, and He has commanded that we are not to take it away from each other unless they have committed certain crimes (Genesis 9:6, for example).

In acient Rome, a father could decide to leave a child out in the wilderness if the offspring was deemed unexceptable, this is seen as barabric, no civilized nation views the right of a father to let a child die as a personal choice but we let the mothers use active force to kill babies
Unfortunately, it's returning to this. This is one of many reasons I hate the term "progressive." What these so-called progressive people don't want is progress, but degeneration. Abortion is only one example.

[Father Rick]

You know...

I've seen more bickering, accusing, and just general vitriol here in CCC than I think I've ever seen in any forum on CF in my 3 years here.

[Miss Shelby]

You know...

I've seen more bickering, accusing, and just general vitriol here in CCC than I think I've ever seen in any forum on CF in my 3 years here.
You mean there's FINALLY a forum that tops OBOB in that regard??

oooooo smack, my work here is DONE!

[GreenMunchkin]

You know...

I've seen more bickering, accusing, and just general vitriol here in CCC than I think I've ever seen in any forum on CF in my 3 years here.Of which you've been a party to, Rick. Let's not forget that.

And this is a thread centred around our SoF, and its being questioned. I'd say members are entitled to feel concerned.

[BelindaP]

So, I'm a progressive now.

No, Nadiine. I made no such accusation about D'Ann. You need to improve your reading comprehension skills.

Jtbdad, I know you're not one of those who is hounding me. I've found you to be very pleasant and tolerant, in fact. It's all the others who smelled blood in the water and couldn't resist.

I am conservative because I hold true to what the scripture says. I want no part in what man thinks or in man imposing his own interpretation upon the scriptures. True conservatism is about keeping to the scriptures and the scriptures only, not about a bunch of hot-button issues that a bunch of American evangelicals think they own.

You all can have this forum. I'll serve God rather than try to please the lot of you. I'm outta here.

[KarenJoy]

I believe all life begins a conception

[Lisa0315]

Yes but it MITE help if she didn't make a comment as if D'Ann made the thread on purpose as if it was some conspiracy to trip her up
(then falls into the trap)......??? :scratch:

Hi Nadine. I did not read the whole thread. Anyway, Belinda just signed out so I guess the point is moot now.

Lisa

[Nadiine]

sorry folks, but this is typical when they can't come in and change us... we let them know their worldviews (or statements/actions) aren't in step with what we represent, and now WE'RE THE EVIL FOLKS that get attacked for wanting to protect our beliefs and keep them from slipping away or condoning liberalism....

now we're horrible. If I went to WWMC with MY views that aren't in step with theirs, I'd be harrassed to no end in there (and they do it to me when I'm not even IN there) or on IIDB.

This is a typical tactic

[GreenMunchkin]

Let's return to the topic, please?

[Lisa0315]

I believe that abortion may be a necessary medical response to an emergency. Like ectopic pregnancy. At that point, I do not think it should be legislated, but be a decision by the woman and her family and the doctor. It's a hard line to discern. My husband and I have talked about it, especially when I had such a high risk pregnancy. After prayerfully considering, we decided that if I were at risk we would consider it, and that if the child were abnormal we would not. That is the line we determined for our family.

But that is usually not the "choice" women make. The topic of abortion ranges from abortion-as-birth-control to abortion-as-emergency-procedure, and all the variations between.

Yes, I should edit my post to say I am against abortion in all cases of VIABLE pregnancies. I do not mean ectopical pregnancies. If Science finds a way to save even those babies, then, yeah, I would be against that as well.

Lisa

[Nadiine]

Hi Nadine. I did not read the whole thread. Anyway, Belinda just signed out so I guess the point is moot now.

Lisa
Oh ok... well... I'd of still said what I did, becuz this is in step with the system - if they can't change things from the inside, they attack on the way out.

It's just a routine, and I'm sorry to say that's what I believe it is and has been from the start.

I care about this forum and everyone in it.

[IamRedeemed]

First let me say that there is forgiveness at the cross of Christ for anyone who has
already done it and cannot take it back.

But I am against abortion. I am also against abortion clinics taking advantage of girls in vulnerable positions and witholding facts or painting the picture the way they do and deceive girls and women. People over all have a lot more access to information now, and praise God for that, because 20 years ago or so, the only info available to the average person was what they told you, which consisted of a description of just "a blob of cells and tissue". We now know scientifically, that is not the case. People call them by scientific terms like zygot and things like that to separate their consciences so they can continue to perform this infanticide and rake in the $$$.

I recommend to anyone who would consider it, to please have an ultrasound first, before you make any final decisions, please just do that. I think you will find a much different story than the minimal information and clinical terms that they tell you.

(if anyone wants any web addresses for the naked truth, please feel to PM me and I will give some to you)

Every human life has a soul. It is life given by God and not for us to decide to take away. The poor little babies can feel pain. This is documented. They are fully formed in the first trimester, yet they kill them even in the last...... It is nothing short of infanticide.

God bless

[bill16652]

I believe that life begins at conception. That is my belief and I say it in love. We do not need to argue this as the argument has went on for many years and very few minds have been changed. Only the Holy Spirit can change minds and hearts so let us walk in love towards each other and just agree to disagree when that happens. There is enough dividing going on. Lets just forgive and heal and if necessary use the ignore button or the reoport button.

[Albion]

I am conservative because I hold true to what the scripture says.

But that is not a definition of Conservative Christian.

At least we have from BelindaP a perfect example of the main problem with this forum--not so much people purposely coming here to oppose Conservative views, but a refusal of some to abide by the forum's stated principles when asking for membership! Then they declare that they are being persecuted when this is mentioned.

True conservatism is about keeping to the scriptures and the scriptures only,

Not according to Conservatives or the dictionary.

You all can have this forum. I'll serve God rather than try to please the lot of you. I'm outta here.

And that is fair, thank you. There are a number of other forums which based membership almost exclusively upon one's orientation towards and interpretation of scripture, the Fundamentalist and OBOB, for example.

[Lisa0315]

Oh ok... well... I'd of still said what I did, becuz this is in step with the system - if they can't change things from the inside, they attack on the way out.

It's just a routine, and I'm sorry to say that's what I believe it is and has been from the start.

I care about this forum and everyone in it.

I care about this forum too. I guess I am just feeling a bit different about it. I have had to handle non-Conservatives signing in before and it really doesn't have to be that big of a deal.

I just think that it is something that staff has to handle on our behalf instead of us taking up the Sword. That is how "I" feel. It is not a dig on how "you" feel.

I am going to try to not get in your way when you are feeling the need to defend. Will you give me room to love on people when I feel called? Can you be the fist and I be the shoulder? Can we work as one body like that?

Lisa

[nyj]

I am conservative because I hold true to what the scripture says. I want no part in what man thinks or in man imposing his own interpretation upon the scriptures. True conservatism is about keeping to the scriptures and the scriptures only, not about a bunch of hot-button issues that a bunch of American evangelicals think they own.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but this forum was set up with specific issues, and specific beliefs in mind. We ask that people be mindful of those when joining up, instead of changing definitions.

You all can have this forum. I'll serve God rather than try to please the lot of you. I'm outta here.Good bye.

[twistedsketch]

So, I'm a progressive now.

No, Nadiine. I made no such accusation about D'Ann. You need to improve your reading comprehension skills.

Jtbdad, I know you're not one of those who is hounding me. I've found you to be very pleasant and tolerant, in fact. It's all the others who smelled blood in the water and couldn't resist.

I am conservative because I hold true to what the scripture says. I want no part in what man thinks or in man imposing his own interpretation upon the scriptures. True conservatism is about keeping to the scriptures and the scriptures only, not about a bunch of hot-button issues that a bunch of American evangelicals think they own.

You all can have this forum. I'll serve God rather than try to please the lot of you. I'm outta here.
I never labeled you or attacked you. Since I am logically "everybody else," you have leveled an irrational accusation against me.

[Lisa0315]

Okay, okay, Belinda is gone now, okay? There is no need to continue pointing out she is wrong on this issue or whatever. She is wrong about abortion. I understand that, but let's just let it go. Please?

Lisa

[nyj]

Lisa,

No offense but ... telling people to lay off something, or calm down ... or otherwise nag them ... is a good way to irritate them. Let them get it out of their system and then they'll simply move on.

As for the abortion issue ... I think Fr. Rick is misguided in using ectopic pregnancy as a reason to claim pro-life status, but not be anti-abortion. I do realize however that the Catholic Church may have a more indepth position on the issue than his church has. If a woman is suffering from an ectopic pregnancy, in order to save her life, it may be necessary to surgically remove the tube. As an unintended consequence, the child will unfortunately die. This is clearly different than a chemically induced abortion, which leaves the tube intact and intentionally chemically kills the fetus.

With advances in medical technology, I believe ectopic pregnancies will be able to be avoided (or even more drastically reduced) in the future, with removal of the fallopian tube, and reinsertion of the fetus into the uterus.

[Letalis]

It's good to see you around, Nyj.

[twistedsketch]

With advances in medical technology, I believe ectopic pregnancies will be able to be avoided (or even more drastically reduced) in the future, with removal of the fallopian tube, and reinsertion of the fetus into the uterus.
That is a day we can all hope and pray for.

[nyj]

It's good to see you around, Nyj.Thanks. Good to be back. :)

That is a day we can all hope and pray for. Amen.

[Miss Shelby]

I think I might have been too quick to jump on Fr Rick, what he's saying is that pro life encompasses other things than just abortion. But I don't understand why that would make someone not anti abortion. I didn't think it was a necessary thing to say.

[nyj]

I think I might have been too quick to jump on Fr Rick, what he's saying is that pro life encompasses other things than just abortion. But I don't understand why that would make someone not anti abortion. I didn't think it was a necessary thing to say.
I agree that pro-life means more than just abortion, though abortion is of primary importance since the unborn are unable to ever speak for themselves.

However, I do disagree with the "not anti-abortion" statement as abortion is ALWAYS wrong. And yes, while I cannot fathom a rape victim taking a child who is the product of rape to term ... that child is innocent and should not have to pay the ultimate penalty (being the subject of homicide) for the crimes of the father.

[Nadiine]

I agree that pro-life means more than just abortion, though abortion is of primary importance since the unborn are unable to ever speak for themselves.

However, I do disagree with the "not anti-abortion" statement as abortion is ALWAYS wrong. And yes, while I cannot fathom a rape victim taking a child who is the product of rape to term ... that child is innocent and should not have to pay the ultimate penalty (being the subject of homicide) for the crimes of the father.
:thumbsup: I've always had a problem with rape victims given a green light to take the life of the fetus -- it makes a victim of the infant itself along with the mother.

I think it also makes her selfish in a way... even tho I can't imagine how I mite feel if it happened to me.
There are options of adoption in cases like that... easy to say, harder to do.
But it's still the right thing to do.

[ladybug1980]

the slight (well a little more than slight) prob I see with life not beginning at conception is that this would mean there is a gap between conception and when life begins...sorta saying that the fetus is pseudo-dead until it starts growing at a certain point:scratch: if the fetus was pseudo-dead at conception, then it becomes arbitrary when it actually becomes life, and not only that, if it is "dead" at conception, then it is incapable of growing into a baby, it seems

the only way that a fetus can change from conception to one month pregnant, from one month to two, from two to three, etc. is if it is alive at conception, it seems to me; if it is not alive at conception then it can't grow after conception, that is why I believe life begins at conception

I am not an expert in biology and even if I studied all the bio books in the world I probably wouldn't be, I'm just stating what seems to be how life takes its course

[DerSchweik]

Pro-Choice before conception; Pro-Life after

Life is too sacred (and so is sex, btw) to trivialize it for personal convenience, particularly to suit a person's lifestyle and consequent bad decisions. If you are unable to accept the (often inevitable) consequences of having sex, ABSTAIN.

One should not compound the problem by murdering their innocent baby because they do not want to accept the responsibility for their decisions.

KEY to the issue is the utter innocence of the baby. Pro-choice proponents are pro-choice only for themselves, never the innocent baby who has no choice - they come into the world wholly dependent on our care and nurturing.

How can we violate that trust???

Pleas against "unwanted children" as reasons for abortion are merely deflections of the primary reasons pro-abortionists seek to keep abortion legal - primarily (and I stress "primarily") to escape the consequences of bad lifestyle decisions - and to continue in that lifestyle - no-consequences sex.

Imagine condoning murder of an innocent baby in support of no-consequences sex. Unimaginable.

The cases where the mother's life may be threatened by birth are rare - but constitute the only, IMHO, rational reason to abort. Rape, while tragic on so many levels, is no rational reason to murder the innocent unborn - particularly when adoption is a perfectly rational alternative to murder.

And MEN - God expects us to be leaders in our relationships with our women - we need to stand forth as the primary agents against putting women into this position in the first place.

"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out" Need I continue the analogy??? Be men, be responsible for your woman, and for your innocent baby.

[twistedsketch]

Pleas against "unwanted children" as reasons for abortion are merely deflections of the primary reasons pro-abortionists seek to keep abortion legal - primarily (and I stress "primarily") to escape the consequences of bad lifestyle decisions - and to continue in that lifestyle - no-consequences sex . . .

And MEN - God expects us to be leaders in our relationships with our women - we need to stand forth as the primary agents against putting women into this position in the first place.
It's a terrible shame that people don't keep it zipped - Christians even. The overwhelming majority of abortions are by unmarried women. We need to live our faith so badly!


Imagine condoning murder of an innocent baby in support of no-consequences sex. Unimaginable.
I'm afraid it's not only been imagined, but executed. There are so many dumpster babies out there. If I were a woman, it would make me want to cry.

[nyj]

ladybuy1980,

There is no doubt that the fetus is alive. The cells that make up the fetus are certainly viable as seen by their ability to propagate and mature. The argument that you'll get from most pro-choice people is "When does the fetus become a person?" and they'll argue that it's not at the moment of conception.

The problem with this argument from them then is that under several circumstances, actual living and breathing individuals may not be considered "persons" either.

the prob I see with life not beginning at conception is that this would mean there is a gap between conception and when life begins...sorta saying that the fetus is pseudo-dead until it starts growing at a certain point:scratch: if the fetus was pseudo-dead at conception, then it becomes arbitrary when it actually becomes life, and not only that, if it is "dead" at conception, then it is incapable of growing into a baby, it seems

the only way that a fetus can change from conception to one month pregnant, from one month to two, from two to three, etc. is if it is alive at conception, it seems to me; if it is not alive at conception then it can't grow after conception, that is why I believe life begins at conception

I am not an expert in biology and even if I studied all the bio books in the world I probably wouldn't be, I'm just stating what seems to be how life takes its course

[Lisa0315]

The worst is that law defines life as when that baby takes a breath independent of the womb. So, when they do late term abortions, they turn the baby keeping the head inside of the womb, then, you do not want to know the rest. It is horrific.

Legal defines it one way. Science defines life quite another way. Worse, they purposefully keep this information from the women prior to the abortion.

Lisa

[HisKid1973]

Forgive them Lord...They don't realize the seriousness of what they do..How much You love your creation. Have mercy Lord use the heartbreak to draw those to You..

[DerSchweik]

It's a terrible shame that people don't keep it zipped - Christians even. The overwhelming majority of abortions are by unmarried women. We need to live our faith so badly!


I'm afraid it's not only been imagined, but executed. There are so many dumpster babies out there. If I were a woman, it would make me want to cry.

It's so true. We can make a case for it taking "two to tango" but when it comes right down to it, men are given the responsibilities of leadership in our relationships and we need to both accept that responsibility AND carry it out with faithful diligence.

Tragic as abortion is, men too often end up sitting on the sidelines of the downstream consequences of our own libidos. We leave our women - and our unborn children - to deal with what should have been our responsibility to have prevented in the first place.

[Miss Shelby]

Pro-Choice before conception; Pro-Life after

Life is too sacred (and so is sex, btw) to trivialize it for personal convenience, particularly to suit a person's lifestyle and consequent bad decisions. If you are unable to accept the (often inevitable) consequences of having sex, ABSTAIN.

One should not compound the problem by murdering their innocent baby because they do not want to accept the responsibility for their decisions.

KEY to the issue is the utter innocence of the baby. Pro-choice proponents are pro-choice only for themselves, never the innocent baby who has no choice - they come into the world wholly dependent on our care and nurturing.

How can we violate that trust???

Pleas against "unwanted children" as reasons for abortion are merely deflections of the primary reasons pro-abortionists seek to keep abortion legal - primarily (and I stress "primarily") to escape the consequences of bad lifestyle decisions - and to continue in that lifestyle - no-consequences sex.

Imagine condoning murder of an innocent baby in support of no-consequences sex. Unimaginable.

The cases where the mother's life may be threatened by birth are rare - but constitute the only, IMHO, rational reason to abort. Rape, while tragic on so many levels, is no rational reason to murder the innocent unborn - particularly when adoption is a perfectly rational alternative to murder.

And MEN - God expects us to be leaders in our relationships with our women - we need to stand forth as the primary agents against putting women into this position in the first place.

"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out" Need I continue the analogy??? Be men, be responsible for your woman, and for your innocent baby.well this post deserves some rep points, I'll get to that sooner or later.

Thank you for touching on the issue that we need to instill virtue into young people, they need to know early on why their bodies were created, that their bodies are not meant to be used for the filth that the world fills their minds with, to blow off steam or just to go ahead do whatever feels good. They need to know that every sexual act has spiritual consequences, some for the good some for the very, very bad. It's tragic that a girl would sleep with a boy because she's afraid of rejection and that young men will use that to their advantag,e but they just aren't being taught any different. I am very much in favor of endorsing some kind of education through church's which teach kids in a candid way that their bodies are temples of the holy spirit and not meant to be abused. I cannot even imagine, I hate to imagine, it makes me cringe when I think about how offended God is by what takes place.

[porterross]

The worst is that law defines life as when that baby takes a breath independent of the womb. So, when they do late term abortions, they turn the baby keeping the head inside of the womb, then, you do not want to know the rest. It is horrific.

Legal defines it one way. Science defines life quite another way. Worse, they purposefully keep this information from the women prior to the abortion.

Lisa
Yet, in direct contrast, the law at times justifies a double murder charge when a pregnant woman is killed.

[Lisa0315]

Yet, in direct contrast, the law at times justifies a double murder charge when a pregnant woman is killed.

Yes, how is it murder if the father kills the child while abusing the mother or something, but it is not murder if the mother just walks into an MD office? It is a double standard.

Lisa

[Miss Shelby]

Yet, in direct contrast, the law at times justifies a double murder charge when a pregnant woman is killed.
Oh I know that is SO whacked.

Did you also know that if a person is on death row, and at the time of scheduled execution, if the person is ill, they won't execute, because it is considered cruel and unusual to kill an ill person. But not a healthy one.

I will NEVER understand the deranged logic of the world.

[twistedsketch]

Yes, how is it murder if the father kills the child while abusing the mother or something, but it is not murder if the mother just walks into an MD office? It is a double standard.
If it's any comfort to you, the hardline pro-abortion lobby doesn't like this either. They don't want anyone inside the womb to have any rights or indication of personhood at all.

[Lisa0315]

If it's any comfort to you, the hardline pro-abortion lobby doesn't like this either. They don't want anyone outside the womb to have any rights or indication of personhood at all.

Not a bit comforting. :sigh: It is terrible how twisted human beings can be. I was once in a debate with a Pro-Choice person here who told me that endangered turtle eggs were more valuable than a human embryo.

I am not kidding and not even remotely exaggerating.

Lisa

[Spudgrandma]

I believe that life begins at conception. That is my belief and I say it in love. We do not need to argue this as the argument has went on for many years and very few minds have been changed. Only the Holy Spirit can change minds and hearts so let us walk in love towards each other and just agree to disagree when that happens. There is enough dividing going on. Lets just forgive and heal and if necessary use the ignore button or the reoport button.
Amen & amen.

I agree with you Bill, I almost always do.

Jeremiah 1:5 (NASB)
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,And before you were born I consecrated you;

Psalm 139:13 (NASB)
13 For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb.

[D'Ann]

Wow... just read through the thread. HUGS to everyone. :hug:

I believe that abortion is a horrific and grave sin of murder. I also believe that it's imperative that we somehow reach out to the women who have gone through abortion and love them and help them to work through their grieving process. Abortion truly is a death of a person and at the time, the mother may not realize how aborting her child will effect her until it's done and then the grieving begins. Maybe not that day or that week or that year, but down the road, when one grows old and starts to think about their life... and realize all of the mistakes that they had made and the remorse and heartache they feel because some mistakes can not be undone... and one has to try and live and find some peace... and find some forgiveness and try and forgive themselves... I hate abortion. I hate the pain that comes from it. I hate that a little innocent baby life is taken by it's mother who was destined to love and want and protect the child. It's heart breaking because as a mother, I've lost a baby to SIDS... my baby was the only boy that God blessed me with and his lost is still hurting my heart. And I can't help but believe that all mothers feel this way... in one way or another about their babies... whether they intentionally aborted their child or lost their child/baby to a disease/illness that they had no control over. Although one situation is very different than the other. Bobby was truly wanted and planned and loved...

I believe that all life is precious and I believe that science has provided evidence that life begins at conception. And I believe the scriptures back this up as well. Here are some awesome Scriptures that prove that life begins at conception:

Matthew 18:10 -


18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.Psalm 139:13-15


"You did form my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb...you knew me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret..."

God speaks to Jeremiah showing that the child in the womb is a person:Jeremiah1:4-5


"Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you."

The entity in the womb is a baby:Luke1:41-44"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy."This is the same word (brephos) Luke uses in Luke 2:12,16 "You will find a babylying in a manger." Luke 18:15,16 meaning infants and 1 Peter 2:2 "newborn babes."

The following concerning John the Baptist:Luke 1:15"He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth."

God knows the personalities of the unborn:Genesis 25:23 "two nations are in thy womb" (Jacob and Esau) "and two manner of people."

Paul writes:Galatians 1:15"But when He had set me apart before I was born...and had called me through His grace."

Consider the most unique person of all, our Savior Jesus Christ. Unique as He is, the scriptures tell us that in His human nature He was to be like us in every way.Hebrews 2:17"Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in every respect, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest." Is there any question of Jesus' personhood before birth? From the moment of conception to the day He died on the cross He lived in humanness like you and I.


What is man's (mankind's) worth:Genesis 1:27"God created man in His own image."Job 10:12"Thou hast granted me life."Psalm 8"When I consider Thy heavens, the Works of thy fingers, The moon and the stars, which Thou hast ordained; What is man, that Thou doest take thought of him? And the son of man, that Thou dost care for him? Yet Thou hast made him a little lower than God, And dost crown him with glory and majesty! Thou dost make him to rule over the works of Thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet.... Oh Lord our Lord, How majestic is Thy name in all the earth."

Our attitude towards our fellow human beings:(Living Bible Version) Proverbs 24:11-12"Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. Don't try to disclaim responsibility by saying you didn't know about it."

Murder is forbidden:Jeremiah 7:6, 22:3,17 and Exodus 23:7"shed not innocent blood."Proverbs 6:16-17"The Lord hates hands that shed innocent blood."Exodus 20:13"Thou shalt not kill."Matthew 5:21 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill..."

Unrepentant murderers will be punished by God:Revelations 21:8"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth of fire and brimstone: which is the second death."Revelations 22:15"For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Murderers are to be executed:Genesis 9:6


"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made He man."

Children are a blessing from God:Genesis 25:21"And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebecca his wife conceived."Genesis 33:5"The children which God has graciously given me."Psalm 127:3 "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward."

An improper attitude toward our children:2 Kings 17:16-20"And they forsook all the commandments of the Lord their God.... And they burned their sons and daughters as offerings....Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of His sight."Jeremiah 32:35"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."Jeremiah 7:31"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."On the surface it might seem that these verses are irrelevant to us today; however, each year in this country approximately 1.5 million babies are sacrificed by their parents. They are not cast into the fiery mouth of Baal; they are aborted instead. The results are the same. They are all very innocent ; they are all very dead. We, as a Nation, are guilty. Since Roe vs. Wade, January 22, 1973, our laws have allowed the killing of innocent preborn babies.

http://www.crusadeforlife.org/prolife_scriptures.htm (http://www.crusadeforlife.org/prolife_scriptures.htm)



When I was 13 or 14, it was my responsibility to take the dirty clothes down to the laundry mat down the street. My sister was never good with cleaning out her pockets that usually had yuck in them like old tissues... and so before putting the clothes into the washing machine, I would check the pockets. If there was money, I would give it back to whoever it belonged to. Of course, my mom usually told me that I could keep any money I found in her pockets.

Well, on this one particular day, I was doing the wash at the laundry mat and cleaning out the pockets of the old tissues and yuck stuff and I came across in my sister's pants a form from a doctor.

In this form, it stated that she had an abortion. She was only 16 years old at the time. I was shocked and I didn't know what to think. At the time, I was just starting my Christian walk attending my teen age Pentecostal church. I put the form in my own pocket and then I washed the clothes. When the clothes were done drying, I put her form back in her pants and never said a word to her until much later in our lives.

In my drama class, we had to write a play. I guess I needed to express myself in this area because I was so confused on the subject. In my family, we never talked about this stuff and in church, we never talked about this stuff and my heart was hurting and so I wrote a play about a teen who had an abortion and the pros and cons of it.

We were suppose to read the plays that we wrote in the classroom and we all would act them out. I was looking forward to seeing my play acted out because I really really really was hoping for some kind of understanding and feedback and expression as to what I should or could do...

Well, my teacher, gave me a A+, but we never read my play in the classroom. And after that day, the teacher never looked at me the same. Now that I'm older, I can't help but wonder if he was probably wondering if the play was about me. Oh well... LOL (it wasn't).

In later years, when my sister and I finally did talk, I found out that that abortion was her first one among many others. She used abortion as a means of birth control. She was also in a gang and did a lot of heavy duty drugs throughout her early life. She was a mess.

She also had 8 kids who turned out wonderful considering the pain that they suffered. For a very long time, I was confused about abortion. My love for my sister was and is and always will be deep. In many ways, she was like a second mother and even though she resented me most of our lives, I knew underneath it, she loved me too.

The good news is that when she was close to dying and re-examining her life, she truly did feel hurt and remorse and repentence over her abortions and other sins of her life and she did try to amend her life and change her life to the best of her ability with the grace of God. Near the end of her life, she was mentally not even there because of her illnesses caused by her drug habits. She did accept Jesus and asked for forgiveness of her sins and confessed her sins and by God's grace amended her life. That doesn't change what has happened or the consequences of her earlier life style, but hopefully, she now has peace.

Since becoming Catholic about 8 or so years ago, I learned how precious life truly is and how vital it is not to take it for granted. All life matters.

Someone mentioned that rape victims should have the choice to keep or abort her baby... I'm sorry, as much as I understand with compassion and love why some may feel this way... I truly disagree. The baby is innocent and shouldn't suffer due to the sins of the father.

That being said, I had a co worker who became pregant at the age of 13. Her whole family told her to abort her baby, but she said NO and wouldn't do it. She kept her baby and raised her baby and her daughter now is about 23 or 24 and is a good and wonderful human being. It turned out that my co worker ended up not being able to have children from the age of 21 due to her tubes being all messed up with some kind of genetic thingie... don't know the medical term for it. So, even though, we may not understand at the time why God would bless someone with a wonderful gift of a baby... we don't know the future and perhaps, it might be the only one that one ends up being able to have.

Regarding my sister, for the most part, she was a good mother. She made a lot of mistakes, but she truly did love her children and wanted her children and cherished her children...

All I know is this... abortion is never the answer. If it is one of those pregnancies in the tube and the only way to save the mother's life is to remove the tube... than that is what it is because the baby would die no matter what... chances are the baby would be gone before the tube needed to be operated on to be removed.

Anyway... don't know why I'm sharing all of this... sorry if I shared a bit too much.

God's Peace,

Debbie

[SolomonVII]

Just on a purely practical side, I see where abortion, and the general lack fo desire ot have children at all, as eventually destroying any society. There is a nihilistic, genocidal aspect to the question of abortion.

Philosophically, the idea of the absolute value of a human life, and the absolute indivisibility of that human at any stage in his/her life journey is rationally sound.

And in Christianity, the idea of the absolute value of a human life, even inutero as John was, is certainly justified.
In Catholic theology with the Immaculate Conception of Mary at the moment of her conception, the point that it is a human life that is involved is doubly justified theologically.

But as far as morality goes, it is very hard to identify with a human life that is no bigger than a pinprick.

And without the affective element involved, it is very hard to make the argumetn understood.

Certainly with movement being felt, or quickening as St Aquinas called it, the idea of an independant life becomes more affectively relevant.

And in-utero pictures of all stages does certainly make the idea of a valuable human life being involved more real.

But I would have to say that I understand the liberal argument, or how a woman may have multiple abortions without qualms. We after all, don't really experience reality as much as we experience what appears to be real to us. Short of mystical encounters, our direct experience is limited to what appears to be real only.

And for all appearances, it is hard to relate human life in its initial cellular stages to an actual, individual, personal living being.

Probably for a woman though, especially for one that has had abortions, the reality may hit home hard with the first kick of the baby that she chooses to allow to live.

Forgiveness for the sins we commit without understand were the dying words of Jesus on the cross.

But while forgiveness may heal the individual repentant, the consequences of sin will still be with us.
and I fear that those consequences for modern society will be dire.

[Nadiine]

Just on a purely practical side, I see where abortion, and the general lack fo desire ot have children at all, as eventually destroying any society. There is a nihilistic, genocidal aspect to the question of abortion.

I take issue with this part of your statement. I have not had any kids and I have never wanted any kids - both before and after my salvation.

If God makes women barren, is that also nihilistic if God doesn't allow them to have any?
Further, God may not have put the will into a man or woman to have any. I think it's a harsh and even a presumptous judgment to make upon people who may not want kids for whatever their reasons.
My reasons are my own they are not all selfish ones.

I believe that it's God who gives us our will for these types of life-changing permanent things - whether to have them or not have them for His own reasons. Including the women who want to have 5 children & more

Phil. 2:13
for it is God who is at work in you,
both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

[Albion]

The point can be correct as a general statement (which I think was the way it was intended).

[D'Ann]

Nadine,

I think some women are called to not have a family. In the Catholic Church, we have nuns who are completely devoted to serving the church. That is their calling, their ministry... the way it was explained to me is that they are married to God and the Catholic Church.

There was a time when I didn't want children either, not because I was selfish, but because I looked at this world as a place filled with hate, anger, destruction and poison and hurt and the thought of bringing in another little innocent soul into a world of darkness was something that I wanted no part of. I'm sure that you have very good reasons why you made the decision that you have. :hug: I'm sure that it was not an easy one made with a light heart. I'm sure it was made with tears. HUGS HUGS HUGS

But God had other plans for my life and blessed me with babies. I think we all need to follow whatever calling and/or direction that God leads us. :hug: I don't think Coyote meant to insult or hurt anyone, but was making a general statement.

God's Peace,

Debbie

[Godslovelyangelgirl]

Someone mentioned that rape victims should have the choice to keep or abort her baby... I'm sorry, as much as I understand with compassion and love why some may feel this way... I truly disagree. The baby is innocent and shouldn't suffer due to the sins of the father.

Amen. Your coworker is brave.abortion is a terrible thing. Just because women will get backalley abortions if its made illegal doesn't mean it should be kept legal.... murder isn't legal, people still murder, should we make it legal because they do? No!

God bless. :)

[SolomonVII]

[QUOTE]I take issue with this part of your statement. I have not had any kids and I have never wanted any kids - both before and after my salvation.
Speaking statistically of a trend in society does not mean that there are individual cases.

And individual cases do not disprove the statistic either.

There are many forms of nihilism in the current sexual mores of western societies.

I have no idea where you fit in, nor would knowing such personal information about you change the point that I am making.

If God makes women barren, is that also nihilistic if God doesn't allow them to have any?
I don't imagine God to be a nihilist, no.
That is not what I am saying.
Your question was more of a rhetorical reductio ad absurdem than sincere though, I presume?

Further, God may not have put the will into a man or woman to have any. I think it's a harsh and even a presumptous judgment to make upon people who may not want kids for whatever their reasons.

It is indeed a very harsh judgment upon a society.
But that does not change the facts one single iota. Children are our future.
For you to not choose children is one thing. For you, your brothers, your sisters and your cousins, and your in-laws to choose not to have children spells the death of your family.

It's just that simple. The future of your family, or culture depend upon somebody having children.
and if not you, then who?


My reasons are my own they are not all selfish ones.
I don't know you personally, nor do I need to to make my argument.
I do know that the Shakers are down to, oh , about 4 members from a high of 6000.
It is not always a question of a lack of faith, not for the Shakers either. But decisions do have consequences.

St Paul spoke highly of celibacy, by the way. He presumed though, that the second coming was likely to be in his lifetime, and that a future generation would really be just redundant.
Even then, he never presumed to divorce our sexuality from the institution of a fruitful marriage. "better to marry than burn."

I believe that it's God who gives us our will for these types of life-changing permanent things - whether to have them or not have them for His own reasons. Including the women who want to have 5 children & more.
God,....
or the devil.

I just don't believe that all of our current societal trends are of God.

And 60 million (American) abortions later, it is apparent that our societies lack of desire for children is one of these trends that I just would not hold God responsible for.

[SolomonVII]

Forgive them Lord...They don't realize the seriousness of what they do..How much You love your creation. Have mercy Lord use the heartbreak to draw those to You..
:pray:
...Forgiveness for the sins we commit without understand were the dying words of Jesus on the cross....


Ahh, I see that the question of healing through Christ's forgivness had already been addressed prior to my initial posting.

My apologies for any repetition.

In the interest of not getting dragged down into the debates, there is much that I didn't read in this thread before posting. My response as such was mostly based on D'Ann's first post, and her last about her sister's many prior abortions.

[SolomonVII]

The point can be correct as a general statement (which I think was the way it was intended).

Nadine,

I think some women are called to not have a family. In the Catholic Church, we have nuns who are completely devoted to serving the church. That is their calling, their ministry... the way it was explained to me is that they are married to God and the Catholic Church.

There was a time when I didn't want children either, not because I was selfish, but because I looked at this world as a place filled with hate, anger, destruction and poison and hurt and the thought of bringing in another little innocent soul into a world of darkness was something that I wanted no part of. I'm sure that you have very good reasons why you made the decision that you have. :hug: I'm sure that it was not an easy one made with a light heart. I'm sure it was made with tears. HUGS HUGS HUGS

But God had other plans for my life and blessed me with babies. I think we all need to follow whatever calling and/or direction that God leads us. :hug: I don't think Coyote meant to insult or hurt anyone, but was making a general statement.

God's Peace,

Debbie

Correct, Albion and D'Ann. Whatever I wrote was not meant as a direct attack on anyone, save perhaps for the nihilism in my own thoughts and deeds- that I am only too well aware of.

Yes, there are very many reasons for not having children, and probably top on that list would be one's self-knowledge that he/she would likely be a very terrible parent. Marriage to Christ too, produces fruits of a different sort, and is a fine reason.
there are, I am sure, ther reasons for not having children too.
My own reason for not having children until rather late in life was much like D'Ann expresses here.

But, again just speaking for myself, I came to understand that such a judgement against this world was in itself a nihilstic judgement.

This world of ours, and this society of ours too, is one of extremes. The worst of the worst, and the best of the best exist together in our society and in our century.
In the end though, the idea that two thousand years of contemplating Christ went into the making of this society tips the scale infnitely in favor of choosing life, for me.
If Christ is going to be carried forth into the next century, it is because my children carried him forth into that century.

[Annabel Lee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvBPCm25z4I

[GreenMunchkin]

Quick reminder that only CC members can debate this.

God bless :hug:

[Simon_Templar]

Just on a purely practical side, I see where abortion, and the general lack fo desire ot have children at all, as eventually destroying any society. There is a nihilistic, genocidal aspect to the question of abortion.

Philosophically, the idea of the absolute value of a human life, and the absolute indivisibility of that human at any stage in his/her life journey is rationally sound.

And in Christianity, the idea of the absolute value of a human life, even inutero as John was, is certainly justified.
In Catholic theology with the Immaculate Conception of Mary at the moment of her conception, the point that it is a human life that is involved is doubly justified theologically.

But as far as morality goes, it is very hard to identify with a human life that is no bigger than a pinprick.

And without the affective element involved, it is very hard to make the argumetn understood.

Certainly with movement being felt, or quickening as St Aquinas called it, the idea of an independant life becomes more affectively relevant.

And in-utero pictures of all stages does certainly make the idea of a valuable human life being involved more real.

But I would have to say that I understand the liberal argument, or how a woman may have multiple abortions without qualms. We after all, don't really experience reality as much as we experience what appears to be real to us. Short of mystical encounters, our direct experience is limited to what appears to be real only.

And for all appearances, it is hard to relate human life in its initial cellular stages to an actual, individual, personal living being.

Probably for a woman though, especially for one that has had abortions, the reality may hit home hard with the first kick of the baby that she chooses to allow to live.

Forgiveness for the sins we commit without understand were the dying words of Jesus on the cross.

But while forgiveness may heal the individual repentant, the consequences of sin will still be with us.
and I fear that those consequences for modern society will be dire.
This brings to mind the German citizens during WWII who tolerated concentration camps, and death camps because they were far enough out of sight that people could convince themselves that they didn't know what was going on.

[Annabel Lee]

I don't see any debate, Greenmunchkin, only discussion. Which post were you referring to?

[GreenMunchkin]

I don't see any debate, Greenmunchkin, only discussion. Which post were you referring to?None specifically. But there's a fine line; with such a sticky subject, it can easily slip from one into the other and we're had enough reports to last us several lifetimes :swoon:

[~free~]

Abortion is the number 1 killer in the world....even above war. :(

I once knew a 16 year old pregnant girl who had decided to get an abortion. She was absolutely terrified of her parents and the reaction to her being pregnant...she felt there was no other way for her. When she booked her abortion appointment, she had a 3 week wait...it was THAT busy. They take appointments every 20 minutes. I was shocked....a baby is being taken in only one clinic every 20 minutes...and they're booked solid!!!!
I sought out information for her in a crisis pregnancy center...after learning the facts about abortion and the risks, she decided to tell her mom and carry to term...her mom had different plans. Her mom wanted her to go through with the abortion...she had a miscarriage the week before the abortion was scheduled.

Working with this girl gave me the strong desire to want to be more involved...so I started my training as a volunteer counceller at that pregnancy center. The stories I hear there are absolutely heartbreaking. I can totally understand why a girl/woman would feel abortion is their only way out...they are desperate for a quick solution. The problem is, most people know nothing about abortion...I'm sure if they knew the specifics before the first time they aborted, abortion rate would drop drastically.

I've seen it that ladies who have had an abortion 15 years ago are suddenly hit with remorse, guilt, shame....it can be very damaging for them.

The sad thing is, the babies that are taken are in God's hands (that's not the sad part)....the mothers that are left behind have jeapeordised their eternal life, are disconnected from God, and like Adam and Eve in a sense, hide because of their shame... it seems that very few people reach out to them, leaving them very alone, pushing what they did way down instead of healing and asking/accepting God's forgiveness.

[Nadiine]

Abortion is the number 1 killer in the world....even above war. :(

I once knew a 16 year old pregnant girl who had decided to get an abortion. She was absolutely terrified of her parents and the reaction to her being pregnant...she felt there was no other way for her. When she booked her abortion appointment, she had a 3 week wait...it was THAT busy. They take appointments every 20 minutes. I was shocked....a baby is being taken in only one clinic every 20 minutes...and they're booked solid!!!!
I sought out information for her in a crisis pregnancy center...after learning the facts about abortion and the risks, she decided to tell her mom and carry to term...her mom had different plans. Her mom wanted her to go through with the abortion...she had a miscarriage the week before the abortion was scheduled.

Working with this girl gave me the strong desire to want to be more involved...so I started my training as a volunteer counceller at that pregnancy center. The stories I hear there are absolutely heartbreaking. I can totally understand why a girl/woman would feel abortion is their only way out...they are desperate for a quick solution. The problem is, most people know nothing about abortion...I'm sure if they knew the specifics before the first time they aborted, abortion rate would drop drastically.

I've seen it that ladies who have had an abortion 15 years ago are suddenly hit with remorse, guilt, shame....it can be very damaging for them.

The sad thing is, the babies that are taken are in God's hands (that's not the sad part)....the mothers that are left behind have jeapeordised their eternal life, are disconnected from God, and like Adam and Eve in a sense, hide because of their shame... it seems that very few people reach out to them, leaving them very alone, pushing what they did way down instead of healing and asking/accepting God's forgiveness.
I believe this.
I was in this same predicament years back when I was promiscuous & lived in a Baptist household. I did go w/ my friend to get a pregnancy test & I knew if I was pregnant, that I WOULD get an abortion just out of fear of my family - what it would bring on them.

So I know the panic they feel when they find out they're pregnant. It's overwhelming. The Q is how do you keep them from being promiscuous in the first place?
But I'm so thrilled to hear of your involvment and help to them Free. I agree, they need details about what is actually happening in an abortion. :help: :swoon: :sick:

(then again, as an animal rights activist for years, I've often said that about people buying meat - I used to want to demand that each person buying meat saw a video from farm to the store and watch that - it would probly have an impact; even tho eating meat isn't a "sin").

God bless your efforts :hug:

[Nadiine]

Correct, Albion and D'Ann. Whatever I wrote was not meant as a direct attack on anyone, save perhaps for the nihilism in my own thoughts and deeds- that I am only too well aware of.

Yes, there are very many reasons for not having children, and probably top on that list would be one's self-knowledge that he/she would likely be a very terrible parent. Marriage to Christ too, produces fruits of a different sort, and is a fine reason.
there are, I am sure, ther reasons for not having children too.
My own reason for not having children until rather late in life was much like D'Ann expresses here.

But, again just speaking for myself, I came to understand that such a judgement against this world was in itself a nihilstic judgement.

This world of ours, and this society of ours too, is one of extremes. The worst of the worst, and the best of the best exist together in our society and in our century.
In the end though, the idea that two thousand years of contemplating Christ went into the making of this society tips the scale infnitely in favor of choosing life, for me.
If Christ is going to be carried forth into the next century, it is because my children carried him forth into that century.
ok, thanks for making a clarification. There are a number of people that do think people like me are in sin for not having any.
I'm not inclined here to share my personal reasons for it (not that anyone asked me to either lol) - but they are definitely not all selfish reasons.
Even if they were all selfish, that's one good reason NOT to have children; you just aren't ready to have one.

We have more than enough children born to people who abuse & neglect them - what a nitemare.
Lord help these children, and help us all. :sigh: :sigh:

[~free~]

I believe this.
I was in this same predicament years back when I was promiscuous & lived in a Baptist household. I did go w/ my friend to get a pregnancy test & I knew if I was pregnant, that I WOULD get an abortion just out of fear of my family - what it would bring on them.

So I know the panic they feel when they find out they're pregnant. It's overwhelming. The Q is how do you keep them from being promiscuous in the first place?
But I'm so thrilled to hear of your involvment and help to them Free. I agree, they need details about what is actually happening in an abortion. :help: :swoon: :sick:

(then again, as an animal rights activist for years, I've often said that about people buying meat - I used to want to demand that each person buying meat saw a video from farm to the store and watch that - it would probly have an impact; even tho eating meat isn't a "sin").

God bless your efforts :hug: I think a lot of young girls have been there...I know I have also.

In the Center that I'm at, we have a program called Thrive, geared at teens to help them make informed and healthy decisions about their relationships. The girl who leads it goes into schools to give a 2 day course. Not that it will prevent all of the students from being promiscuous, but it certainly gets them thinking.

[D'Ann]

I think a lot of young girls have been there...I know I have also.

In the Center that I'm at, we have a program called Thrive, geared at teens to help them make informed and healthy decisions about their relationships. The girl who leads it goes into schools to give a 2 day course. Not that it will prevent all of the students from being promiscuous, but it certainly gets them thinking.


That is the bottom line... doing things to get people thinking. We need more programs like this one. The only way to help is to actually provide the means to have programs similar to the program you have mentioned.

When we can reach out with love and truth encouraged with compassion and kindness, mixed with actual evidence of what truly happens... it's a good thing.

[~free~]

That is the bottom line... doing things to get people thinking. We need more programs like this one. The only way to help is to actually provide the means to have programs similar to the program you have mentioned.

When we can reach out with love and truth encouraged with compassion and kindness, mixed with actual evidence of what truly happens... it's a good thing.
That's exactly right! I've seen such posative results when people are reached out to with love...even the most defiant person can be reached!

[No Swansong]

All I really know for sure (other than I oppose abortion) is that for many of these young ladies it is not as easy a decision as many believe it to be. I have spoken with several pro-lifers who truly believe that most of these young ladies just decide for abortion because a child is inconvenient. While it is usually true that the child is inconvenient, we as a community need to provide support, love, acceptance and material support for those who are faced with such a terrible decision. Many of these young ladies need to be shown that an unplanned pregnancy is not the end of the world. I have seen the results of young people despairing and I hated using the body bags.

[~free~]

All I really know for sure (other than I oppose abortion) is that for many of these young ladies it is not as easy a decision as many believe it to be. I have spoken with several pro-lifers who truly believe that most of these young ladies just decide for abortion because a child is inconvenient. While it is usually true that the child is inconvenient, we as a community need to provide support, love, acceptance and material support for those who are faced with such a terrible decision. Many of these young ladies need to be shown that an unplanned pregnancy is not the end of the world. I have seen the results of young people despairing and I hated using the body bags.That is so, so true! I doubt any woman that had an abortion would say they set out to kill their baby...and not one woman that faced a crisis pregnancy and decided to keep their baby would wish they'd have gotten an abortion instead.

Most of the young women that I work with are terrified and that's what usually drives their decision to abort...they think it gets rid of the problem. :sigh:

[daniel777]

is there anyone here who thinks abhortion isn't murder?

[D'Ann]

That's exactly right! I've seen such positive results when people are reached out to with love...even the most defiant person can be reached!

Amen. I truly believe that with love and faith and hope... all things are possible. God is love. (I love 1 Cor. 13).

That is so, so true! I doubt any woman that had an abortion would say they set out to kill their baby...and not one woman that faced a crisis pregnancy and decided to keep their baby would wish they'd have gotten an abortion instead.

Most of the young women that I work with are terrified and that's what usually drives their decision to abort...they think it gets rid of the problem. :sigh:

Very true. Most young ones are terrified and unsure... and having tender and loving folks that they can turn to and reach out to and receive the help they need in every area... and have some kind of hopeful reassurance that they are not alone and that there are options that are good for them and their baby... options... are really important and also being supportive in every way possible.

is there anyone here who thinks abhortion isn't murder?

Murder means:

1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought2 a: something very difficult or dangerous (like the traffic was horrible... it was murder) b: something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>

A young girl most likely does not have malice in her heart towards her baby, but she is scared and unsure and that causes her to make the wrong decision.

There are some women who use abortion like birth control and in their heart, they do pre-determine to end the life of their unborn baby.

So, I don't like the word murder in this category because it's a negative stigma that only hurts the mothers who have made this decision in their life. The point of this thread is not to hurt people, but have a place for healing.

What I believe is that some women and young girls do kill their unborn babies via abortion. We are not here to condemn anyone, but to love all, for all are welcome here. We are here to c