Adultery

[Lulav]

As Messianics, should we forgive Adultery or would it be cause for divorce?

[Wags]

As Messianics, should we forgive Adultery or would it be cause for divorce?

Depends, it could be grounds for divorce, but it isn't required to divorce if one spouse commits adultry.

[Henaynei]

Depends, it could be grounds for divorce, but it isn't required to divorce if one spouse commits adultry.exactly..... I chose to forgive. It was one of the hardest things I ever remember doing.

[visionary]

As Messianics, should we forgive Adultery or would it be cause for divorce?Both are the right thing to do, but the Lord pointed out that it is better to forgive. It takes an extremely strong spiritual person to truly do that. It also doesn't mean that the marriage could still end in divorce.

I view marriage like a sacred covenant of the highest order and woe to anyone who tries to take it apart by accident or intent, and that included my partner and myself.

It is my constant prayer for a bonding that no man can break. It is my constant prayer that if there is anything I can do from tough love to gentile love to make it better, Lord teach me.

[LadyGarnetRose]

If God is telling you to stay or if God is telling you to go, that is what you need to listen to.

[GerTzedek]

It is too complicated an issue to be summed up in a tidy bundle. This sort of thing really has to be dealt with case by case.

For one thing, although I realize some Christians love to say all sins are equal, they aren't. Serial murder is worse than stealing a cookie. Not all adulteries are created equal.

If my spouse were unfaithful, I would really really much rather it be that he drank too much at a business social and had a one night stand with someone he'll never see again than have a year long affair. And I'd rather that he be stooping the office secretary for a month before his conscience finally gets to him than have 50 one night stands because he doesn't know how to keep his pants zipped. Why do I make these differences? Because in the former cases, I think there is hope for his repentance, and in the latter cases I do not. The man having the year long affair and the man with the multitude of affairs are both either unwilling or unable to keep a marriage covenant.

It's important also to clarify what we mean by forgiveness. There are actually two very different things which we happen to call both of them forgiveness. The first is true reconciliation. For this to happen, the adulterer has to:

Understand what they did was wrong
Really HEAR the pain of the spouse they hurt
Hurt because they caused that hurt
Show by their actions that it will not happen again
Realize that trust must be earned back over time
Be willing to do whatever it takes to make amends, no matter how hard or how long

In this sort of reconciliation, it's also a good idea for the wounded spouse to take a good look at themselves. Adultery rarely happens in a vacuum. Not that anything excuses adultery. But often sins against the adulterer precede the act of adultery, and emotional vacuums cry out to be filled.

The second form of forgiveness is simply letting go of bad feelings and the need for justice. This form of forgiveness stops bitterness and hate. Bitterness and hate, if unchecked, will enable the sin's injury to continue hurting the person. Thus, letting go stops further injury by the sin.

If reconciliation is not possible, then I would say IN GENERAL an injured person is best served by letting go, AND getting a divorce.

[Tishri1]

strengthen me to do it I would try....:)

[GerTzedek]

Oh, one other note. As Messianics, no divorce should be done as if we are not part of our religious community. You don't ever just go and file for a civil divorce. You go before the Beit Din for a Get.

[Talmidah]

Oh, one other note. As Messianics, no divorce should be done as if we are not part of our religious community. You don't ever just go and file for a civil divorce. You go before the Beit Din for a Get.Even non-Jews???

[simchat_torah]

As Messianics, no divorce should be done as if we are not part of our religious community. You don't ever just go and file for a civil divorce. You go before the Beit Din for a Get.How do messianics go about this with no messianic beit din? I'm confused.

[ChavaK]

Even non-Jews???

I don't get this either....a get is only needed when
two Jews are married....
do messianics have their own halahcah on this?

[TheRabbi]

if there's no Ketubah you can't give a get. They are both part of the same system.

[GerTzedek]

Even non-Jews???
Look, if a gentile wants to be a part of a Messianic Jewish community, then even though many things are not obligatory to gentiles, they become obligatory for THESE gentiles in a practicle sense. There is nothing wrong with a gentile wearing a cross -- but it would be a serious breach for a gentile to do so within the walls of our synagogue. The beit din is the rabbinical court for our entire community. Those gentiles who don't wish to BE a part of our community don't need to be. There are plenty of wonderful gentile churches to choose from.

[GerTzedek]

if there's no Ketubah you can't give a get. They are both part of the same system.
Yes, they are. But no one asked about the Ketubah.

I should also clarify. Our rabbinical court has only existed for six years. Our standards of observance were only published last spring. Many things are possible now which weren't before, but they are new to our particular community. There are those who waited long for this and are excited about it. And there are those who are somewhat confused by what is going on. There are those who grew up in Judaism, and already know the ropes. And there are those who haven't a clue.

The rabbinical court and standards are a giant leap forward, but we are still only at the very, very beginning, and there is a lot of confusion.

[Lulav]

What if they were married before they became believers? And there was no Ketubah?

[stone]

As Messianics, should we forgive Adultery or would it be cause for divorce?


I am fortunate to have a good wife. I've never been put in that situation, but i think i would forgive it once, but if it was something habitual, which i've read is a common reason for divorce, of course for both man and woman, i would definately divorce. It would be impossible for me to live with someone that is unfaithful.

[Torah]

As Messianics, should we forgive Adultery or would it be cause for divorce?
I agree with Post #2, #3, #4, G-d hates divorce, and I believe if the person is truly sorry, and if it is at all possible to forgive, by all means try to work it out.
[With conditions, it is the first time and not an on going thing]
BUT! If it is too much for a person then divorce is permitted. But! There are consequences to divorce, especially if children are involved. Divorce is detrimental to children.

[Lulav]

Divorce is detrimental to children.It is to adults as well. I think that unfaithfullness is THE most hurtful thing on the planet. This is what causes the most pain. One can understand how HaShem felt and feels ( somewhat) when one turns away from him, and is unfaithful ( goes to others'gods'). He is faithful to take them back if they truly make teshuvah, not repent, but make teshuvah.

But if a man has bound himself with another woman and given her what should only be for his wife whom he became one with as Yeshua said, how can you reverse that? How can it be taken back? How can it be recompensed? To me it's like once you loose your virginity , you can't get it back, even though if done out of wedlock and you are sorry you did it, it still changes nothing because you can't , not do it again.

[muffler dragon]

should we forgive Adultery or would it be cause for divorce?

JMHO, forgiveness and divorce are NOT mutually exclusive. One can forgive and get divorced.

[Tishri1]

With man sometimes it seems impossible but with ABBA all things that are in His will are possible...I would not make a move with out my ABBA moving me:wave:

There is a great book out there for women who feel they are in that place right now...its called "Created to be his Help Meet " by Debi Pearl

[A_Pioneer]

"The Christian Army is the only Army that shoots their wounded." DR. Elbert G. Peak.

It is erronius that Yeshua said that "If a man divorces his wife and marries another commits adultry against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultry."

The vav/and could be rendered "In order to"

"If a man divorces his wife in order to marry another commits adultry against her; and if she divorces her husband in order to marry another, she commits adultry."

These folks have allready been adulterous according to Yeshua.

Marriages are to be made in heaven, but some of them, hell wouldn't have!
These marriages are hazardous to childrens health!
If a spouse hits another spouse or child! Get a Get or a divorce!
Heal the wounded person!
Let us not mimic the Christian Army.

Shalom

[TheRabbi]

I'm surprised that no one has asked what biblical adultery is.

[simchat_torah]

lol, I like how Ger always conveniently ignores my posts.. oh well..

[Bananna]

Biblical adultery?

Breaking covenant. You know I don't think sex is usually written in the marriage contracts today. Are they a standard part of the Ketuvah?

The only biblical breaking of covenant I've actually counseled on were wife abuse. Physical beatings. (not me a friend and her husband)

He promised to love her and charish her and what he was doing was neglecting her welfare, verbally and physically abusing her and also trying to get her to let him have another wife on the side. It took us many years to get her to see he had already broken the covenant in everyway he could... especially after years of brainwashing by pastors telling her it was her fault.

I have read a couple of different teachings claiming only women can be adulterers...
Yeshua teaches that men can think of a woman and become an adulterer.

I've seen men who pour out their thoughts and energy toward other women and neglect to make their wives happy. They create an emotional adultery. While men commit adultery against God, women do so against husbands. Yet both can be adulterers in the biblical sense.

bananna

[Henaynei]

I'm surprised that no one has asked what biblical adultery is.I'll bite .... please state your understanding on what constitutes biblical adultery :)

[TheRabbi]

Adultery is the sexual union of a married Jewish woman and any man other than her husband. Both partners in such a union are guilty of Adultery and any children resulting from such a union are mamzerim.

[visionary]

Adultery is the sexual union of a married Jewish woman and any man other than her husband. Both partners in such a union are guilty of Adultery and any children resulting from such a union are mamzerim.Just to make sure I understand this... Adultery is NOT the sexual union of a married Jewish man with any other woman other than his wife. Neither party are quilty of adultery in this case????

[ChazakEmunah]

Just to make sure I understand this... Adultery is NOT the sexual union of a married Jewish man with any other woman other than his wife. Neither party are quilty of adultery in this case????
I'm glad I wasn't the one to open this can of worms.... But yes, your assessment is 100% accurate. If a man could be guilty of adultery by sleeping with a woman that was not his wife, then every King of Israel would have been committing adultery every time he was with one of his pilegeshim (concubines).

[BereanTodd]

I'm glad I wasn't the one to open this can of worms.... But yes, your assessment is 100% accurate. If a man could be guilty of adultery by sleeping with a woman that was not his wife, then every King of Israel would have been committing adultery every time he was with one of his pilegeshim (concubines).

Not to cause a fight ... but they were. And Jesus says as much in the Sermon on the mount. He says "whoever looks at a woman and lusts ..." had allready commited adultery. I don't care what Rabbis teach, Yeshua was clear in HIS words, and I stand on them.

[ChazakEmunah]

Not to cause a fight ... but they were. And Jesus says as much in the Sermon on the mount. He says "whoever looks at a woman and lusts ..." had allready commited adultery. I don't care what Rabbis teach, Yeshua was clear in HIS words, and I stand on them.
I suppose that would be why I don't accept the NT then. Because if I were to accept that statement, I would have to disregard what the Torah teaches.

[Lulav]

Makes me wonder how many Jews are Mormons in reality?

[Talmidah]

Makes me wonder how many Jews are Mormons in reality?What do you mean?

[ChazakEmunah]

What do you mean?
It's a snipe at Jews because the Torah allows for concubines and polygamy.

[Talmidah]

It's a snipe at Jews because the Torah allows for concubines and polygamy.Ah! I'm very dense when operating on too little sleeping. Thanks :wave:

[ChazakEmunah]

Ah! I'm very dense when operating on too little sleeping. Thanks :wave:
It sounds like you need to get more sleep then. ;)

[Talmidah]

It sounds like you need to get more sleep then. ;)What, are you and muffler a tag team when it comes to teasing Talmidah???? :mad: :ebil:

:pink:

[BereanTodd]

I suppose that would be why I don't accept the NT then. Because if I were to accept that statement, I would have to disregard what the Torah teaches.

Show me where it disagrees with Torah. It disagrees with some rabbinical understandings of Torah, not with Torah itself.

[Lulav]

It's a snipe at Jews because the Torah allows for concubines and polygamy. Umm, I'm a Jew Chazak, but I believe and follow the teaching of my Rabbi, Yeshua who defined what marriage should really be, as it is defined in the beginning, in Genesis chapter 2. I also believe G-d has one wife, Israel and not many others. One husband, One wife.

[TheRabbi]

If we take Jesus literally and "stand on his words", we must then bring that thought process to it's ultimate conclusion. Every Christian would have the right to divorce their spouse, because I doubt very seriously that there are any who have never looked at another man/woman with desire.

This would also make David an adulterer and cause us to ask how God could call him "a man after his own heart". This leaves all proponents of this literal understanding unable to stay married for more than a day or two and worshipping a god that has the heart of an adulterer.

[TheRabbi]

A married man that sleeps with an unmarried woman has done a terrible thing. He has broken the trust of his wife. But he has not committed adultery. You'll find no example of such a thing being called adultery in the Bible.

All of the kings of Israel, David included, had multiple wives and concubines. Polygamy is not forbidden by the Bible in any way. The Talmud discourages it. Rabbeinu Gershom forbade it for 1000 years. That time limit expired years ago and the Yemenite jews never accepted the ban. There are Yemenite Jews with multiple wives today.

[Steve Petersen]

A few years ago I found this in the Talmud, but I forgot to write down the reference:

NOT DO (XVIII, 3). It bears on what is written in Scripture: The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying: No eye shall see me; and He that dwelleth in secret putteth a face (Job XXIV, 15).1 Resh Lakish expounded: You must not suppose that only he who has committed the crime with his body is called an adulterer. If he commits adultery with his eyes he is also called an adulterer; for it says, ' The eyes also of the adulterer.' Now this adulterer sits and watches expectantly for the moment when twilight will arrive, when evening will come; as it says, In the twilight, in the evening of the day (Prov. VII, 9). And he does not know that He who sitteth in the secret place of the world, namely, the Holy One, blessed be He, fashions the features2 of the embryo's face in his image, so as to expose him. This is what Job meant by, Is it good unto Thee that Thou shouldest oppress? (Job X, 3). This man [the husband] feeds and maintains her and He fashions the embryo's features in the likeness of another!3 And not only that but Thou shouldest despise the work of Thy hands (ib.), and after having worked upon it [the embryo] forty whole days,4 Thou marrest it again!5 Moreover, Thou dost Shine upon the counsel of the wicked (ib.). Is this consonant with Thy dignity, to stand between the adulterer and adulteress?6 Said the Holy One, blessed be He, to him: `Job, you really owe Me an apology. What would you? That it should be said of Me as you have said, namely, Hast Thou eyes of flesh (ib. 4)?7 Indeed,' said the Holy One, blessed be He, ' I shall fashion all his features in the likeness of his father in order to expose him.' R. Levi said: It is like the case of a potter's apprentice who stole a lump of potter's clay, and his master detected his theft. What did the master do? He rose and made it into a vessel and hung it up before him. Why all this? To make it known that his master had detected his theft.

I agree with the Rabbi regarding Jesus words. You have to view them as a call to piety rather than literally on this issue. If you continue to read Jesus words, then everyone who hates his brother is a murderer. If you are literal with his word, everyone who looks at a woman with lust or hates his brother has committe a mortal sin. The penalty in the Torah is death for these.

What Jesus was getting at is this, IMO: a thought CAN lead to a deed. Best to control the thought before the deed is birthed.

[visionary]

A few years ago I found this in the Talmud, but I forgot to write down the reference:

NOT DO (XVIII, 3). It bears on what is written in Scripture: The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying: No eye shall see me; and He that dwelleth in secret putteth a face (Job XXIV, 15).1 Resh Lakish expounded: You must not suppose that only he who has committed the crime with his body is called an adulterer. If he commits adultery with his eyes he is also called an adulterer; for it says, ' The eyes also of the adulterer.' Now this adulterer sits and watches expectantly for the moment when twilight will arrive, when evening will come; as it says, In the twilight, in the evening of the day (Prov. VII, 9). And he does not know that He who sitteth in the secret place of the world, namely, the Holy One, blessed be He, fashions the features2 of the embryo's face in his image, so as to expose him. This is what Job meant by, Is it good unto Thee that Thou shouldest oppress? (Job X, 3). This man [the husband] feeds and maintains her and He fashions the embryo's features in the likeness of another!3 And not only that but Thou shouldest despise the work of Thy hands (ib.), and after having worked upon it [the embryo] forty whole days,4 Thou marrest it again!5 Moreover, Thou dost Shine upon the counsel of the wicked (ib.). Is this consonant with Thy dignity, to stand between the adulterer and adulteress?6 Said the Holy One, blessed be He, to him: `Job, you really owe Me an apology. What would you? That it should be said of Me as you have said, namely, Hast Thou eyes of flesh (ib. 4)?7 Indeed,' said the Holy One, blessed be He, ' I shall fashion all his features in the likeness of his father in order to expose him.' R. Levi said: It is like the case of a potter's apprentice who stole a lump of potter's clay, and his master detected his theft. What did the master do? He rose and made it into a vessel and hung it up before him. Why all this? To make it known that his master had detected his theft.

I agree with the Rabbi regarding Jesus words. You have to view them as a call to piety rather than literally on this issue. If you continue to read Jesus words, then everyone who hates his brother is a murderer. If you are literal with his word, everyone who looks at a woman with lust or hates his brother has committe a mortal sin. The penalty in the Torah is death for these.

What Jesus was getting at is this, IMO: a thought CAN lead to a deed. Best to control the thought before the deed is birthed.Kill the evil concepts before they are given birth to their evil deeds. That should be good at keeping the mind from running amok. How do we do that... by dwelling on those things that are pure...

[A_Pioneer]

Is it the contention of some here that Moshe, not God was the author of this; "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,

Is this Yeshua saying it was Moshe that allowed divorce?

And God allowed that to stand in the Tanach all those years without a word against it!

No wonder some believe "It is Plan B." Yeshua came to correct Gods mistakes!

God forbid!!!

Shalom

[GerTzedek]

Is it the contention of some here that Moshe, not God was the author of this; "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,

Is this Yeshua saying it was Moshe that allowed divorce?

And God allowed that to stand in the Tanach all those years without a word against it!

No wonder some believe "It is Plan B." Yeshua came to correct Gods mistakes!

God forbid!!!

Shalom

I think it is very obvious. At least to me. There is the IDEAL -- a lifelong faithful monogamous marraige. G-d wishes the ideal for us. HOWEVER, we fall short of idea. In marraiges particularly they often do fall short of the idea -- infidelity, brutality, psychological abuse, the devestations of addiction, etc. Moses provided a certificate of divorce not because HASHEM views divorce as the ideal, but because a way to deal with things when they were so NOT the ideal.

Unfortunately, people misuse divorce -- ending marraige for selfish reasons. For example, the man who leaves the wife of his youth because she got older, fat, and boring, so that he can marry a younger, beautiful, more maleable honey. Well, I look at that, and I think exactly what Yeshua said -- he is sinning.

[GerTzedek]

How do messianics go about this with no messianic beit din? I'm confused.But there IS beit din within MJ. We have our Rabbinical Council, from which Jewish Rabbis are pulled when a bet din is needed. For example, conversions are overseen by a bet din.

I brought up the divorce issue in class after shul today, and I was correct in what I posted above. Now that we have the Rabbinical Council, things such as a ketubah or get are going to become the norm. Things are going on now on a case by case basis, and my rabbi said that my bringing it up made him think that the Rabbinical Council needs to address the entire divorce issue sooner rather than later, and issue some sort of statement.

[Steve Petersen]

But there IS beit din within MJ. We have our Rabbinical Council, from which Jewish Rabbis are pulled when a bet din is needed. For example, conversions are overseen by a bet din.

So all Messianics are supposed to appear before your Beit Din for divorce?

Could you quit with the shamless promotion of the UMJC and Kinzer? You aren't the only Messianics on the planet.

[GerTzedek]

So all Messianics are supposed to appear before your Beit Din for divorce?

Could you quit with the shamless promotion of the UMJC and Kinzer? You aren't the only Messianics on the planet.
I can't speak for all MJ's. But certainly those in UMJC are under the authority of the MJRC.

I can't help but mention the UMJC, since it operates as a distinct community, and I happen to be part of it, and I'm delighted that it was our community which first formed the Rabbinical Council. I plug Kinzer, Dauermann, and others because they are RIGHT.

[Tishri1]

I could ask my Rabbi since he was Former President of the UMJC? He is a gentle man, a strong leader, and devoted husbandRabbi Kasdan (http://kehilatariel.org/leadership/rabbi.html)has served in various positions in the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) including as its President from 1998-2002.