Christian Support for Israel

[Albion]

The TV Evangelist, Pastor John Hagee, has for long been a believer in the idea that the Jewish people have a special place in God's eyes and that, therefore, all Christians have a divine obligation to help and honor them.

Recently, though, you may have noticed that he's turned his ministry more and more in that direction. He's sponsored gatherings and rallies to that end, and he's created an organization, Christians United for Israel (CUFI). Evangelists Rod Parsely and Kenneth Copeland are helping, I believe.

The call is that we are to pressure the American government to do whatever it takes to defend Israel, even if that means war on her behalf.

Is this sound theology in your judgment? Why or why not?

[Project 86]

The TV Evangelist, Pastor John Hagee, has for long been a believer in the idea that the Jewish people have a special place in God's eyes and that, therefore, all Christians have a divine obligation to help and honor them.

Recently, though, you may have noticed that he's turned his ministry more and more in that direction. He's sponsored gatherings and rallies to that end, and he's created an organization, Christians United for Israel (CUFI). Evangelists Rod Parsely and Kenneth Copeland are helping, I believe.

The call is that we are to pressure the American government to do whatever it takes to defend Israel, even if that means war on her behalf.

Is this sound theology in your judgment? Why or why not?

I do believe Israel plays a special roll. I don't believe Israel is the church like some believe. I know people in Israel have to deal daily with issues of terrorism. I am alarmed how some in government, and even the churches, defend the terrorists and point the finger at Israel for the blame. That being said I also believe Israel needs to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior so we need to witness to them. Also, we need to use common sense when dealing with the harsh reality going on over there.

[desmalia]

I do believe Israel plays a special roll. I don't believe Israel is the church like some believe. I know people in Israel have to deal daily with issues of terrorism. I am alarmed how some in government, and even the churches, defend the terrorists and point the finger at Israel for the blame. That being said I also believe Israel needs to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior so we need to witness to them. Also, we need to use common sense when dealing with the harsh reality going on over there.
That's kinda how I see it as well.
What really concerns me is when evangelists get involved with politics. That's a dangerous game, IMHO.

[PaladinGirl]

I believe like John Hagee does that we should support Israel and pressure our government to Israel. But going to war on her behalf? I'm sorry but I don't agree with that.

[desmalia]

I believe like John Hagee does that we should support Israel and pressure our government to Israel. But going to war on her behalf? I'm sorry but I don't agree with that.
It's nice to see you here again, Holly. That's a sweet picture of you and your man. I hope all is going well for you.

[HowardDean]

Sound theology? It doesn't sound like theology, but politics.
I love Hagee, and I do support Israel as God's land, but am somewhat libertarian on that we 9the U.S., should stay out of other countries business!

[Project 86]

Sound theology? It doesn't sound like theology, but politics.
I love Hagee, and I do support Israel as God's land, but am somewhat libertarian on that we 9the U.S., should stay out of other countries business!

So if we all of a sudden had terrorists coming after the United States left and right would you not want any other country to help us? :scratch:

[Albion]

So if we all of a sudden had terrorists coming after the United States left and right would you not want any other country to help us? :scratch:

Of course we would. The question here, though, is more a matter of theology. Do we as a nation have a religious, Biblical obligation to defend Israel?

For myself, I am not sure I can agree with that. For one thing, as a citizen I am uneasy about the country being asked by any religion, even my own, to put the finances and lives of its people on the line for any religion. If American Muslims petitioned the US Government to go to war to defend Saudi Arabia BECAUSE that's where the holy shrines of their faith are located, I'd say that's nothing we should be doing.

In addition, I am not at all convinced that the modern state of Israel IS the extension of the Hebrew peoples of OT times who, admittedly, were God's chosen people. Most Israelis are secular Jews, not religious in the sense of the historic Jewish faith.

[DesertScroll]

In addition, I am not at all convinced that the modern state of Israel IS the extension of the Hebrew peoples of OT times who, admittedly, were God's chosen people. Most Israelis are secular Jews, not religious in the sense of the historic Jewish faith.

Not arguing with you or anything. But isn't this the case of Israel pretty much in most times of the Old Testament? Not necessarily the secular part, but the part of most Jews not practicing the Jewish faith, the hard and stiff-necked people the Bible tells us about.

Not that we are any better of course.... thank God for grace in Jesus!

[desmalia]

Originally Posted by Albion http://www3.foru.ms/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=40061589#post40061589)
In addition, I am not at all convinced that the modern state of Israel IS the extension of the Hebrew peoples of OT times who, admittedly, were God's chosen people. Most Israelis are secular Jews, not religious in the sense of the historic Jewish faith.
Not arguing with you or anything. But isn't this the case of Israel pretty much in most times of the Old Testament? Not necessarily the secular part, but the part of most Jews not practicing the Jewish faith, the hard and stiff-necked people the Bible tells us about.

Not that we are any better of course.... thank God for grace in Jesus!Both really good points. This is much of what I struggle with as well regarding this whole issue.

[IamRedeemed]

Jews as well as Gentiles need to come to Christ for salvation. There is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved. That being said, God has not in any way abandoned Israel and in fact Israel does have a special place in the end of days and in fact Jesus will be setting up His kingdom in Jerusalem.

Listen to these words from the book of Romans chapter 11:

Romans 11

God’s Mercy on Israel

1 I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel? Of course not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you realize what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said, 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28173a)]
4 And do you remember God’s reply? He said, “No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!”
5 It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28175c)] have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them. 6 And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say,
“God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear.”[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28178d)]
9 Likewise, David said,
“Let their bountiful table become a snare,
a trap that makes them think all is well.
Let their blessings cause them to stumble,
and let them get what they deserve.
10 Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see,
and let their backs be bent forever.”[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28180e)]
11 Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves. 12 Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.
13 I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this, 14 for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them. 15 For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead! 16 And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
17 But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. 18 But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
19 “Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” 20 Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. 21 For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28191f)] spare you either.
22 Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off. 23 And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree. 24 You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.
[B]God’s Mercy Is for Everyone

25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28195g)] so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28196h)]
and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
27 And this is my covenant with them,
that I will take away their sins.”[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28197j)]
28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. 30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. 31 Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:1-32;&version=51;#fen-NLT-28201k)] in God’s mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

[I]

[Albion]

Not arguing with you or anything. But isn't this the case of Israel pretty much in most times of the Old Testament? Not necessarily the secular part, but the part of most Jews not practicing the Jewish faith, the hard and stiff-necked people the Bible tells us about.

Not that we are any better of course.... thank God for grace in Jesus!

Well, you've raised an interesting point. The Jews were God's people even though they frequently did not live up to it. God still stuck with them. So to that extent, the fact that there are many secular Jews in Israel may not matter that much. But we might still ask if the nation-state of Israel is indeed the embodiment of the Jewish people of the world. I don't know. Maybe so. More of them live elsewhere and many who do live in Israel are not descended from the OT Hebrews but are descendents of converts at a later time.

[Albion]

Israel does have a special place in the end of days and in fact Jesus will be setting up His kingdom in Jerusalem.

No problem there at all. Whether the USA is supposed to facilitate it, here and now, is the question, isn't it?

[twistedsketch]

I think we should help them, but if they start persecuting Christians like the Jews did in the New Testament times, we should withdraw our support.

[HowardDean]

Some people believe if we do not support them in every way possible, God will not bless America anymore.
I have read somewhere that 9-11 was some sort of judgment for tyring to give Palestinians a country.

[Project 86]

Of course we would. The question here, though, is more a matter of theology. Do we as a nation have a religious, Biblical obligation to defend Israel?

She seemed to have turned it into a political point so that is why I asked her from a non theological point of view. I have heard many say we should stay out of other countries businesses. Is that really a good view to always hold? Specially if the tables are turned?

[DesertScroll]

Two quick thoughts.

First the Jewish religion was all about the foreshadowing of Christ. Prophets, kings, true Jews longed to see the day of Jesus (Matt 8:56 13:17 Luke 10:24 16:29,31 24:27,44 John 1:45 5:39, 46 Heb 11:13 1 Pet 1:10-12).

But those professing to be Jews (and Jews only, of the law only) have set up their own righteousness apart from God:

I can testify that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened. For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to God's righteousness. Rom 10:2,3

But, even though they are not following God in truth I still feel the nation of Israel is necessary and has been set up by God (without his setting up of it I doubt it would be possible today).

Now the reason for this.

There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. Rom 2:9,10

Also see passages like Ezek 38:16-23 and Zech 14:4.

So while I do not think the nation is for God as they have set up their own righteousness I do believe the nation of Israel is set up by God, for just as salvation started at Jerusalem so wrath shall begin there, starting with the Jew first.

Whether we as different nations actively support Israel and its endeavors that is a different question. I do know we shouldn't support nations just because they say that they are democratic. Democracy is not the greatest thing ever invented and can become worse than a tyrannical despot.
I don't know about you, but I am waiting for a King. And in this wait I do believe Israel is a sign of the times.

[Albion]

She seemed to have turned it into a political point so that is why I asked her from a non theological point of view. I have heard many say we should stay out of other countries businesses. Is that really a good view to always hold? Specially if the tables are turned?

And I suppose what I was thinking is that if we take Isolationism off the table, what do we do then? Sure, we help allies and hope for their help, but a blanket guarantee of defending Israel under all circumstances--and doing so not because she is a democracy and friend, but because God wants us to--is something else IMO.

[Albion]

But, even though they are not following God in truth I still feel the nation of Israel is necessary and has been set up by God (without his setting up of it I doubt it would be possible today)....Whether we as different nations actively support Israel and its endeavors that is a different question. I do know we shouldn't support nations just because they say that they are democratic. Democracy is not the greatest thing ever invented and can become worse than a tyrannical despot.

I agree. Whether or not Israel has been set up by God in our times is a different issue from the one addressed by this thread.

[twistedsketch]

Democracy is not the greatest thing ever invented and can become worse than a tyrannical despot.
It's not the greatest thing ever, but I don't know of any democratic country that has committed the atrocities on its own people that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao have.

[DesertScroll]

It's not the greatest thing ever, but I don't know of any democratic country that has committed the atrocities on its own people that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao have.
I apologize. I definitely used some strong wording there for what could happen (possibility) versus what has historically happened. And your right, historically I couldn't back that claim up.
However, in my mind while I was typing, I was actually thinking of the people that put Hitler in power. Maybe I should not have used democracy as an example (which hopefully has a contrasting side to stop one sidedness, even though that is not always the best thing) but mob rule mentality.
Either way thank you for pointing out my fault in using that phrase.

[Albion]

Is there anyone here, then, who agrees with Hagee's campaign regarding Israel?

[DesertScroll]

Is there anyone here, then, who agrees with Hagee's campaign regarding Israel?
No, not full support as in all out economic, militarily help.
But then again I have to say some kind of support, even if it is in the vein of knowing those against Israel are definitely headed for wrath.

The early Christians, even the early Jewish Christians, did not fight against Rome with the Jewish rebellions. Which some historians classify as the final break with Judaism as the Jews looked upon them as betraying their Jewishness.

But, I think he (Hagee) is right in the sense that Israel is special and set up and kept by God.

Jesus gave special prominence to the Jews and identified himself as a Jew (John 4:20-26). Jesus recognized the evils of Jerusalem, but still wanted to gather them to him (Matt 23:37) and as Jerusalem came into view (prob from the path on the Mount of Olives) he wept over it (Luke 19:41).

Even Paul who says there is no distinction between Jew or Greek as regards those who believe in the Lord (Rom 3:30 10:12) there still is a distinction when it comes to how things are done (Rom 1:16 2:9,10).

I recognize Israel as a nation until there is no more of the present order of the universe (Jer 31:35-37) and also recognize that this is not because of anything that the Jews have done to deserve it (Ezek 20:9 36:21-23) because they have set up there own righteousness (Rom 10:2,3).
I also know that Christians are the true nation of God (1 Pet 2:9) but the new covenant does not cancel out the old (Gal 3:17, 21) but fulfills and goes beyond it, not contradict it.

I also recognize the attitudes and beliefs of those that are against Israel (Ezek 25 is a great synopsis see also Psa 83:1-8 137:7). So while Israel as Jews have set up their own righteousness in error, I also see that Israel is not like other nations and that malice and vengeance against Israel leads to righteous judgment from God for those that go up against the Jews.

Can I support our government giving money and weapons to Israel? Yes. I can also support giving money to the Palestinians for humanitarian support, but not for use against Israel in a military fashion.

Israel is there for a purpose in the latter times, to gather the nations together against it for judgment (Zeph 3:8 1:18 also see previous posts in this thread).

So my support of Israel is not in that they are right in what they are doing, but in support that they have a right to exist, a right to be there, and that it is set up by God. And everyone that goes up against Israel will feel God's wrath and that this will lead to the wrath against the world.

So the support of Israel is a very fine line. Does that include actively fighting for Israel with troops by its side? I am not sure of that, and I say that in light of James 3:1. On the one hand Israel has set up a righteousness that is not from God. On the other, they have a special place and purpose in God's plan. No matter how far they slide into unrighteousness God never forgets them and those that side against them (to destroy them not argue against them) are proclaimed to be wrong and punished.

As Christians we are aliens and exiles of the world, it is not are home (1 Pet 2:9) so how can I fight for something that I have no part of?

As you can see I am very sure of some things, but very contradicted with myself in others. Hopefully what I have written can give you the answer you are looking for, because I don't have a clear cut answer myself (I wish I did).

[Albion]

No, not full support as in all out economic, militarily help.

But that appears to be Pastor Hagee's idea (full support including us fighting for them militarily). This had something to do with my posting the OP since most of us favor some degree of support for Israel and for some reason or other.

But, I think he (Hagee) is right in the sense that Israel is special and set up and kept by God.

He's been saying that all along. That Christians ought to pressure our government to go to the mat for Israel and that we have a religious, Christian obligation to lobby our government to do so for Biblical reasons goes too far, IMO.

[Zionsfriend]

The TV Evangelist, Pastor John Hagee, has for long been a believer in the idea that the Jewish people have a special place in God's eyes and that, therefore, all Christians have a divine obligation to help and honor them.

Recently, though, you may have noticed that he's turned his ministry more and more in that direction. He's sponsored gatherings and rallies to that end, and he's created an organization, Christians United for Israel (CUFI). Evangelists Rod Parsely and Kenneth Copeland are helping, I believe.

The call is that we are to pressure the American government to do whatever it takes to defend Israel, even if that means war on her behalf.

Is this sound theology in your judgment? Why or why not?
I personally have always felt a special closeness to Israel and the Jewish people. I guess because Jesus was a Jew and a follower of Judaism Himself. To quote from a book by D Thomas Lancaster (Restoration) "Biblical Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism that believed in Jesus and revered the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) as the core of her scriptures". Maybe these ministers are on the right track.

[shrewdsnake]

I believe the church (believers) should be supporting the Jews in Israel with prayer, missionaries and if a person is so lead by the Holy Spirit, financial support. I don't feel that you have to go through a politician to do that past letting your elected officials know you feel that way.

[Albion]

I personally have always felt a special closeness to Israel and the Jewish people. I guess because Jesus was a Jew and a follower of Judaism Himself. To quote from a book by D Thomas Lancaster (Restoration) "Biblical Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism that believed in Jesus and revered the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) as the core of her scriptures". Maybe these ministers are on the right track.

The issue really is whether or not America, as a government, ought to be underwriting Israel's policies, not whether individual Christians or churches believe what you wrote here.

[Zionsfriend]

The issue really is whether or not America, as a government, ought to be underwriting Israel's policies, not whether individual Christians or churches believe what you wrote here.
I believe The US should continue to be a close ally of Israel since Israel is the only true democracy in the Mid East. Israel's policy of fighting terrorism is in step with our government's policies. We're kinda in the same boat.

[Varik]

"I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:2-3)

Israel deserves all the support we can give them. Also I would like to point out that the day when The Gaza Strip was given away by Israel because Bush had pressured them to do so as a step in his road map to peace (or as I like to call it the road map to ruin) was also the day Hurricane Katrina formed. It is in our best interest not only spiritually but physically to aid the people of Israel in acquiring the land that was promised to them by God. And for anybody who might bring it up NO its not doing Gods work for him. Remember, it was the Israelites who conquered there own land with Gods help. It was not God that did all the work for them. God helps those that help themselves unless they cant help themselves.

[HowardDean]

Agree totally with Varik here.
If America ever stops supporting Israel, America will fall and be a wasteland.

[Albion]

I guess the issue boils down to this--

Who is in favor of a theocracy here instead of constitutional government?

Who believes that all Americans should be made to follow the religious principles of a certain group of Evangelical Protestants, even to the point of giving their tax monies and their lives for those principles (as Hagee does)?

Many Americans do not think that one religious POV, even their own, should be making the policy for our country. They view the idea about defending Israel in the same way they would if it were Roman Catholics saying that the USA must defend to the last American life and last dollar the continued existence of Vatican City.

[Albion]

I believe The US should continue to be a close ally of Israel since Israel is the only true democracy in the Mid East. Israel's policy of fighting terrorism is in step with our government's policies. We're kinda in the same boat.

I understand. And I think that most Americans would tend to agree. That isn't what Hagee's organization stands for, however. For him, there can be no qualifications. If Israel ceases to be a democracy, if she starts a war of conquest, if she opposes us in critical ways that are important to our own national security, it doesn't matter to Hagee. According to what Hagee has said, the only thing is that God wants us to give everything we have for the preservation of the State of Israel with no exceptions and depending upon nothing else. If Israel became actively anti-American, for instance, apparently nothing would change.

[Zionsfriend]

I understand. And I think that most Americans would tend to agree. That isn't what Hagee's organization stands for, however. For him, there can be no qualifications. If Israel ceases to be a democracy, if she starts a war of conquest, if she opposes us in critical ways that are important to our own national security, it doesn't matter to Hagee. According to what Hagee has said, the only thing is that God wants us to give everything we have for the preservation of the State of Israel with no exceptions and depending upon nothing else. If Israel became actively anti-American, for instance, apparently nothing would change.
I really don't keep up with Mr Hagee very much. I've listened to him occasionally when passing through his program. I knew that he had suddenly taken up a cause for Israel but didn't really know the details. I just wanted to put in my two cents worth concerning the US's support for Israel. If he has the attitude you've mentioned then he is a bit off base. My user name say's a lot about how I personally feel toward the Jewish people and their nation so I guess you can understand my general position.

[Albion]

I really don't keep up with Mr Hagee very much. I've listened to him occasionally when passing through his program. I knew that he had suddenly taken up a cause for Israel but didn't really know the details. I just wanted to put in my two cents worth concerning the US's support for Israel. If he has the attitude you've mentioned then he is a bit off base. My user name say's a lot about how I personally feel toward the Jewish people and their nation so I guess you can understand my general position.

I do understand and agree with the overall of what you've written here. My ears only perked up when Hagee came to the part about Christians have to lobby their government to do whatever Israel needs in order to survive. Like you, I am familiar with his earlier sermons on God's people, etc. which didn't concern me or seem unusual. This notching it up, however, was a bit startling and, FWIW, nothing I could agree to.

[lismore]

Is this sound theology in your judgment? Why or why not?

The Jews are still God's elect group, beloved for the sake of the patriarchs (Romans 11:28)

Paul says:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins

We shouldnt forget that Jesus is a Jew, an Israelite. It is Jerusalem that he is coming back to (Zechariah 14:4), it is Jerusalem that he will reign from (Luke 1:32).

God has made lots of prophecies reagrding Israel in the last days: God said that Israel would come back (Isaiah 43: 6, Zechariah 8:7-8, Jeremiah 31:10, Ezekiel 11:17).

Jesus said when Israel came back as a nation then 'summer' was near, the parabale of the fig tree!
(Matt 24:32, Hosea 9:10). In fact he is coming back when the Jews of Jeruslalem say 'Blessed is he who come sin the name of the Lord' (Luke 13:35).

Then they will mourn for the one they have pierced (Zechariah 12:10) and all Israel shall be saved (Romans 11:26)

In the meantime we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6) Jerusalem the Jewish city, not al Khuts the muslim city!

Psalm 102:

13 You will arise and have compassion on Zion,
for it is time to show favor to her;
the appointed time has come.

14 For her stones are dear to your servants;
her very dust moves them to pity. 15 The nations will fear the name of the LORD,
all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.



One last prophecy for this day:

Joel 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=36&chapter=3&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

Even today the AMerican president is trying to persuade Israel to divide up the land God gave them and give more than half to the terrorists.

:scratch:

[lismore]

Who is in favor of a theocracy here instead of constitutional government?
.

Every believer is in favour of a theocracy. Jesus Christ is coming back to set up his kingdom which will last forever (Isaiah 9:7. Daniel 2:44, Luke 1:32-33), he will rule the nations with an iron sceptre!



They view the idea about defending Israel in the same way they would if it were Roman Catholics saying that the USA must defend to the last American life and last dollar the continued existence of Vatican City.


The bible gives crucial importance to Israel and jerusalem, especially as the day of the Lord approaches.

Our Lord is coming back to Jerusalem, a Jerusalem owned by the Jews according to the prophet Zechariah.

Mount Zion will be:

Micah 4: 1 In the last days
the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it.

2 Many nations will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths."
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.


Dont forget who our Lord and saviour is!

He is the Holy one of Israel (Isaiah 1:4)

He is the King of the Jews (John 19:19)

Jesus Christ is a Jew, an Israelite!

God doesnt ask you to help any other people in the way he expects you to support Israel, remember what God has done for Israel he has done for no other nation (Psalm 147:20).

Just look in the bible at how many times it mentions Israel and how many times it mentions Jerusalem!

:wave:

[Albion]

Every believer is in favour of a theocracy. Jesus Christ is coming back to set up his kingdom which will last forever (Isaiah 9:7. Daniel 2:44, Luke 1:32-33), he will rule the nations with an iron sceptre!

Then I guess I should have said "Who is in favor of a theocracy in place of the United States government, and at this time?"

[Albion]

The Jews are still God's elect group, beloved for the sake of the patriarchs (Romans 11:28)

But that wasn't part of the question, Lis.

Even today the AMerican president is trying to persuade Israel to divide up the land God gave them and give more than half to the terrorists.

:scratch:

I suppose that part of this depends on whether you think God gave this land--and everything up to the Euphrates--to the nation State of Israel, and if so, why is it supposed to be the USA's job to secure it for Israel, especially since our nation does not have an established church. On the other hand, there's nothing stopping you from petitioning your own Prime Minister to send in British troops.

[lismore]

I suppose that part of this depends on whether you think God gave this land--and everything up to the Euphrates--to the nation State of Israel, and if so, why is it supposed to be the USA's job to secure it for Israel, especially since our nation does not have an established church. On the other hand, there's nothing stopping you from petitioning your own Prime Minister to send in British troops.

Hi there:wave:

Its up to Christians to support Israel as the Lord has told them to do. Jesus our saviour is in a fact a Jew and always will be, the bible says: salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22)

The British and USA governments are already firmly on the side of the Arabs for oil, thats what John Hagee seems to be saying.

P.S As a background you might like to read this book here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-War-Against-Jews-Espionage/dp/031211057X/ref=sr_1_1/203-4671470-5771164?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194464960&sr=8-1

Look at this propechy here:

Joel 3

1 "In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joel%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22346a)]
There I will enter into judgment against them
concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,
for they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.

Thats speaking of today. God has resoted the fortunes or Jerusalem and Judah and the US government is pressurizing Israel to give land to the terrorists, George Bush's roadmap to peace will bring God's judgement down on your heads, to divide God's land into two states, to give Jerusalem to the muslim PLO :( , all for the sake of crying 'peace, peace' where there is no peace? (Jeremiah 6:14)

He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep (Psalm 121:4).

When the prince of peace returns to Jerusalem there will be peace for the Jews.......

:wave:

[lismore]

I
Who believes that all Americans should be made to follow the religious principles of a certain group of Evangelical Protestants, .

Its not the principles of certain protestants its the clear teachings and prophecies of scripture.

[lismore]

Then I guess I should have said "Who is in favor of a theocracy in place of the United States government, and at this time?"

People can obey God's word, or disobey and be destroyed. The United states much choose God's way or destruction.

Zechariah 14:

12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

Dont be found on the wrong side fighting against Israel, because the God of Israel is the only God.

I think John Hagee is trying to encourage the USA to support Israel and be on God's side.

Jesus is a Jew and is coming back to israel, there is no sense try to oppose God, which is what the UK and the USA are trying to do right now. AT the very least John Hagee is trying to encourage the USA (allegedly a Christian nation) to have the biblical attitude for Israel.

[ContentInHim]

Agree totally with Varik here.
If America ever stops supporting Israel, America will fall and be a wasteland.
And yet we know from Ezekiel and Zechariah that all nations will turn on Israel and that would sadly include the USA. :(

I believe in advising the USA government that we should support Israel but understand that we won't always do that. Also, Israel seems bent on committing suicide and I'm not sure what we can do to stop that except pray! :)

[HowardDean]

God is in control, and will not let His land be taken.

[Albion]

Dont be found on the wrong side fighting against Israel, because the God of Israel is the only God. I think John Hagee is trying to encourage the USA to support Israel and be on God's side. Jesus is a Jew and is coming back to israel, there is no sense try to oppose God, which is what the UK and the USA are trying to do right now. AT the very least John Hagee is trying to encourage the USA (allegedly a Christian nation) to have the biblical attitude for Israel.

Depends a lot on what "on the wrong side" means, doesn't it, and whether the nation that is today called "Israel" is that which you are referring to?

But for myself, this is not something for the government to be committed to in any case because--contrary to what you wrote above--the US does not have an established religion and is not, therefore, "a Christian nation" except in the sense that most of its members profess the Christian religion. We have a separation of Church and State.

[lismore]

Depends a lot on what "on the wrong side" means, doesn't it, and whether the nation that is today called "Israel" is that which you are referring to?

But for myself, this is not something for the government to be committed to in any case because--contrary to what you wrote above--the US does not have an established religion and is not, therefore, "a Christian nation" except in the sense that most of its members profess the Christian religion. We have a separation of Church and State.

Well friend, I gave you some 'theological' reasons to support Israel.

Here is a common sense one: Israel is America's friend, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezzbollah, Fatta, the PLo etc are not America's friends.

Help your friend in need!

God Bless You:wave:

[ContentInHim]

God is in control, and will not let His land be taken.
Oh, I hope that's true. But I do fear that He will allow Israel to give it away for naught and then judge. After all, it's God's land! :(

[Albion]

Well friend, I gave you some 'theological' reasons to support Israel.

Problem is, it is not a matter of whether *I* support Israel, but whether the national government is to.

Here is a common sense one: Israel is America's friend, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezzbollah, Fatta, the PLo etc are not America's friends.

And where have we located Israel's troops when we, her supposed ally, have had to fight? That's right...at home while many other countries have contributed to the fight for freedom and democracy wherever it's been under attack in recent years. Sure, she will defend herself and those are not people who wish us any good either, but that's the extent of her conception of being anyone's ally. Meanwhile, she has also stabbed us in the back on many occasions. A real ally would not do such things.

God Bless You:wave:

And you too! :)

[ContentInHim]

Depends a lot on what "on the wrong side" means, doesn't it, and whether the nation that is today called "Israel" is that which you are referring to?

But for myself, this is not something for the government to be committed to in any case because--contrary to what you wrote above--the US does not have an established religion and is not, therefore, "a Christian nation" except in the sense that most of its members profess the Christian religion. We have a separation of Church and State.
I agree that the government of Israel is close to an abomination and that the country is a morass of secular beliefs. But they are currently the only democracy in the ME and therefore deserve our support and our $$. Sadly, the USA seems bent on supporting both sides against all sides. :(

[Albion]

I agree that the government of Israel is close to an abomination and that the country is a morass of secular beliefs. But they are currently the only democracy in the ME and therefore deserve our support and our $$. Sadly, the USA seems bent on supporting both sides against all sides. :(

Well, this is the point, isn't it? I mean, we support her for good reasons, and I'm not saying we ought not. But when it comes to giving her all that she demands, whether or not it is in our best interests, I say 'no.' The USA has no obligation to send troops and money without limit, as Hagee wants, whether or not it serves our nation's interests.

For anyone who disagrees with me on this, I'd like them please to address the critical part of the OP thread (the part in red), not other aspects of our relationship with Israel.

[ContentInHim]

Well, this is the point, isn't it? I mean, we support her for good reasons, and I'm not saying we ought not. But when it comes to giving her all that she demands, whether or not it is in our best interests, I say 'no.' The USA has no obligation to send troops and money without limit, as Hagee wants, whether or not it serves our nation's interests.

For anyone who disagrees with me on this, I'd like them please to address the critical part of the OP thread (the part in red), not other aspects of our relationship with Israel.
What - you want us to talk about the OP? :D OK!

I don't believe that we should send troops. Israel has (or rather maybe had) the second best military in the world (US being first :) ). They need money and they need us to NOT arm their enemies, like Hamas and Fatah and the PLO. (Did you know that the word "hamas" in Hebrew means violence? Some sense of humor our Father has! :) )

Though I think the rot in Israel has gone so deep that they might not be able to recover. Recent survey said 35% of Israeli kids will fight having to serve in the military. Geesh - even the Samaritans serve without complaint and they're not Jewish. Their military is incompetent and corrupt. The government is corrupt. All the lions of the past generations have turned into lap cats. :disgust smilie here:

[Maranatha27]

Gen 12: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Obv this is just part of the promise. But i think this is relevant today. Throughout history Nations have fallen because of how they chose to deal with Gods people Israel. Now if for Example Hillary Clinton was elected and said We are completely cutting are ties with Israel, I think this country will fold like a cheap suit. this country has a very short history, I believe God raised this country in anticipation of bringing his people back into the land.

[ContentInHim]

Gen 12: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Obv this is just part of the promise. But i think this is relevant today. Throughout history Nations have fallen because of how they chose to deal with Gods people Israel. Now if for Example Hillary Clinton was elected and said We are completely cutting are ties with Israel, I think this country will fold like a cheap suit. this country has a very short history, I believe God raised this country in anticipation of bringing his people back into the land.
Interestingly enough, only she and Rudy have voiced ANY kind of support for Israel. :eek:

[Albion]

I don't believe that we should send troops. Israel has (or rather maybe had) the second best military in the world (US being first :) ). They need money and they need us to NOT arm their enemies, like Hamas and Fatah and the PLO.

Good points, all. To help when it is in our interests is fine. To guarantee unlimited support to the max of our resources regardless of what Israel does is really the question. Thanks.

[Albion]

Interestingly enough, only she and Rudy have voiced ANY kind of support for Israel. :eek:

But you know, it is unthinkable and politically fatal for any politician in high office to not do so. Maybe the public has just not held the others' feet to the fire on this issue yet or that we have noticed.

[ContentInHim]

Good points, all. To help when it is in our interests is fine. To guarantee unlimited support to the max of our resources regardless of what Israel does is really the question. Thanks.
I agree, Albion. :wave:

[IamRedeemed]

Amen. Well said. I am with you 100% on this.
We, the body of Christ have been commanded to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. We have also been told not to be proud of being grafted in, that those that have been cut off, can also be grafted back in again. God has not forsaken Israel. Yes, no one, not even Israelites can enter unless they enter in through Christ. But God in no way has written Israel off as SDA's believe.

God bless!


I do believe Israel plays a special roll. I don't believe Israel is the church like some believe. I know people in Israel have to deal daily with issues of terrorism. I am alarmed how some in government, and even the churches, defend the terrorists and point the finger at Israel for the blame. That being said I also believe Israel needs to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior so we need to witness to them. Also, we need to use common sense when dealing with the harsh reality going on over there.