The Age Thread

[rusmeister]

I guess I'm posting this with a particular beef in mind (or bleat, if I may cop CS Lewis), and that is attitudes toward age on these forums. It used to be that most people displayed most of the info - age, sex, faith (and granting that it was largely true information)...we had a good idea of where the people we were talking to were coming from. If you understand that a person is a woman, you can take that into account. If you know they are 65 years old, or twelve years old, you can grant them experience commeasurate with their age, if you know they are Baptist you won't make assumptions that they believe the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, etc.

I've noticed over the past year that more and more people are concealing their personal information on this forum. I fully appreciate privacy concerns, and wouldn't let that bother me. But what does bother me is when people conceal their info because they believe that it should make no difference at all in how they are understood by others. Now things like sex and faith tell us exclusively about perspective, but age is different, because age has a quality of accumulating experience. This means that all other things being equal, the person of the greatest age also has correspondingly the most life experience. Now I'm the first to admit that 'there's no fool like an old fool'; that age is no guarantee of wisdom and that we can find wisdom in the mouth of babes. What concerns me is a prevailing attitude here that age means nothing at all; that all thoughts and opinions are of equal value, as if they were equally seasoned by life's various experiences.

It's part of a broader problem, one that I've commented on before, that of our society telling us that all opinions are of equal value (and that in the long run none of them matter). But it seems to be especially pronounced as regards to age.

There is also a related problem - when on any given topic people reject the experience of others with special experience regarding the subject. Again, there are two extremes - that of placing value ONLY on expert opinion and special experience and failing to recognize common sense and common ability, and that of discounting special experience and expertise and not acknowledging that others may really know things that we do not. My charge is that overwhelmingly, both in Western society and on these forums, we tend toward the latter extreme.

I do have a particular respect for people that do not conceal their age. If the reason for concealment is less about privacy and more about being treated as a mature adult then it is a kind of cowardice to fear that an older person might take a younger person's age into account, and is correspondingly a kind of bravery to not fear it).

One could say that a sin of eastern societies is in going too far in respecting the aged and the elderly. But I say that our sin is the opposite one - of not respecting it at all.

[TrueHope]

Well, my friend, you are not the only one who has noticed this. Thank you for posting it! It may open some eyes! :)

[SeraphimSarov]

Personally, I don't like not having the faintest idea of who I'm talking to on web forums, and as someone younger, I'm a lot more likely to take someone's advice if they're 51 as opposed to a mere 21. It only makes sense....

[Philothei]

I have to admit that I took my age out... I did not want people to judge my posts from my age group and to stereotype me. Sometimes age has nothing to do with knowledge or maturity... I have seen too many 20 year olds in my time with more mature ideas about life than a 60 year old.... We do not all mature the same way....

I agree though that age matters in practical matters and common sense because of life experience.

It is up to the indiv idual if he/she choses to show her age or not. I do not think it should be an issue and personally I never use my age to make an argument more valid. IMO this is a set up for bigger fences....

God bless,
Philothei

[MariaRegina]

I think most people know that I am well over 50, but I concealed my age because certain youngsters in their 20s are very disrespectful to the graying and elderly.

On the other hand, I have met a lot of very mature 17, 18, and 19 year olds.

[TrueHope]

I think most people know that I am well over 50, but I concealed my age because certain youngsters in their 20s are very disrespectful to the graying and elderly.

On the other hand, I have met a lot of very mature 17, 18, and 19 year olds.
This is disheartening, and sadly growing through the years. Why, In MY DAY...(hee hee) If the young even raised their voice to an elder...be it 1 year or 50 years...watch out! Respect is respect!

[nestoj]

I think most people know that I am well over 50, but I concealed my age because certain youngsters in their 20s are very disrespectful to the graying and elderly.

On the other hand, I have met a lot of very mature 17, 18, and 19 year olds.
I think that's a part of larger problem rusmeister is addressing. Sad and undeserved. I'm kinda from the other side sin.

nestoj
God helps

[fuerein]

This is disheartening, and sadly growing through the years. Why, In MY DAY...(hee hee) If the young even raised their voice to an elder...be it 1 year or 50 years...watch out! Respect is respect!
Not to open a can of worms... but it kinda goes both ways. I know many younger people who have little to no respect for those older then them and admittedly it is a shame. However, on the flip side, I've encountered any number of people in their 30's, 40's + who fit this description and I've also seen several news articles talking about it, that many older people in the US are simply acting more like you'd expect someone in their teens or twenties to act. If people are going to act like their younger (and thus presumably more immature) counterparts why should the mere fact that they are X years older than you garner them instant respect? I think that in part is part of the reason you don't see much respect from younger people toward those older than them. They have to little reason to grant such respect, their elders act exactly like they do and in some cases worse than they do. After they see it enough it becomes easier to default to little or no respect when first encountering someone new than to default to a decent level of respect as may have been the case in the past.

[Greg the byzantine]

People are constantly giving clues about their age without even realizing. Whether it be a reference to children or grandchildren, a reference to a past event at which they were present or which they remember, or often even the use of certain words and slang while posting. It's not a foolproof method but you can usually place a person at least witihin an age group.

I however think that age demands respect, but I am not going to blindly accept a person's age as an inidcation of experience.

[Oblio]

It's part of a broader problem, one that I've commented on before, that of our society telling us that all opinions are of equal value (and that in the long run none of them matter). But it seems to be especially pronounced as regards to age.


The 'fruits' of Western democratic mores IMO. The belief that we are all equal; we're not, we're different, and age is part of that difference, as is gender, and so is race, and education, upbringing, our genes ...

[Lukaris]

Personally I am just too stupid to understand the functions to post any graphics on my profile. Epilogue edit to (my) OP: Got the age displayed, rubics cubes are gonna be a sinch now. Re OP: this was a good call to age accountability & I took your thread seriously too, just did not think about it (which was really stupid).

[nutroll]

I would propose that respect should be given to everyone regardless of age, and other factors, but at the same time, we should try to earn the respect of others.

It bothers me that there are so many people that don't respect younger people. I began studying iconography at the age of 14, and not to brag, but by the time I was in my early 20s, I already had much more experience, and had developed more refined skills than many people twice my age.. It had an awful lot to do with the amount of time that I was able to devote to painting, the amount of time that I was able to spend with my teacher, the quality of the criticism that I received, and my willingness to heed that criticism. And yet, I found it very difficult until the last year or two to get people to see past the fact that I was in my twenties. It took me years to earn people's respect (for lack of a better word), and I can tell you that it really tried my patience.

But ultimately, no one will respect you unless you show them that you are worthy of respect. I always try to respect my elders, as well as people that are my own age or younger, but to really keep my respect, one needs to demonstrate that my respect is well placed.

And to be honest, Rus, I tend to have a problem respecting those who insist on being respected. When people constantly refer to their qualifications, or bring up the amount of experience they have, it is often times because they have quantity of experience that they think will hold weight, rather than quality of experience that grants wisdom. I am not saying that this is the case with you, but that you don't need to constantly point out how old you are, or what your life experiences are in order to be taken seriously. The quality of what you say should make that experience evident.

[TrueHope]

Not to open a can of worms... but it kinda goes both ways. I know many younger people who have little to no respect for those older then them and admittedly it is a shame. However, on the flip side, I've encountered any number of people in their 30's, 40's + who fit this description and I've also seen several news articles talking about it, that many older people in the US are simply acting more like you'd expect someone in their teens or twenties to act. If people are going to act like their younger (and thus presumably more immature) counterparts why should the mere fact that they are X years older than you garner them instant respect? I think that in part is part of the reason you don't see much respect from younger people toward those older than them. They have to little reason to grant such respect, their elders act exactly like they do and in some cases worse than they do. After they see it enough it becomes easier to default to little or no respect when first encountering someone new than to default to a decent level of respect as may have been the case in the past.
Oh, I agree with this too. I do remember the shocker I had when I heard for the first time an old man in his 70's -80's start cussing like a wild hog....I was 20 something...and almost dropped my lid! So, I do hear ya there!!! I think the disrespect in all ages has just grown and grown. I do agree with, who is it, Nutroll? That those who command respect....well...if they have to command it....then I stay far away....Some people are just pompous. However, in threads and such, it is a shame to see how people can be quite rude to each other and in cases of such rudeness, I often wonder....Did they bother to look at the age of the OP? Or the commenter.....To get an idea at least of where they are coming from

I have met some crass people of all ages....and I gotta wonder...where was MY Grandma to shape these people up!!!! ;)

[RobNJ]

The way I see it:

1) It's just the neenernet, you can't trust those who HAVE their age displayed to be telling the truth about it (if for NO other reasom, than to NOT have personal info on the neenernet)

2) I've seen some wise young posters, Ive seen some older folks act like knuckleheads. and I've seen the reverse.

Forget the packaging.. "by their fruits, ye shall know them."

[Xpycoctomos]

Personally I am just too stupid to understand the functions to post any graphics on my profile.
Personally, I haven't read any good reason to conceal age/sex/religion here in this thread except for this one. All the other reasons don't make any sense and make communication that much fuzzier (and it's already fuzzy enough in Internet land).

Xpy

[Oblio]

Personally I am just too stupid to understand the functions to post any graphics on my profile.

I used to know how, but at my age I've forgotten how (or lost the gumption).

[Xpycoctomos]

The way I see it:

1) It's just the neenernet, you can't trust those who HAVE their age displayed to be telling the truth about it (if for NO other reasom, than to NOT have personal info on the neenernet)

2) I've seen some wise young posters, Ive seen some older folks act like knuckleheads. and I've seen the reverse.

Forget the packaging.. "by their fruits, ye shall know them."
Right... but that goes with anything. Following that reasoing we shouldn't have anyone put their religion up. Sure,andyone can and does lie.

But it does help to know age.

A GREAT example is if an iquierer comes by. If their 16 I am going to use a special caution I would not have used witha 35 year old.

I think people should also put if they are married or have children. Sure, it's none of my business, but neither is your religion my business, really. But in the interest of communication (which is what a forum is ALL about) these things would help nad concelaing an age is just a wierd game.

Xpy

PS: also, Ihave a hard time remmeber who is who. So, if I have other identifiers I can soon catch up. If I jsut have a name and religion, I forget their other info quickly.

[RobNJ]

PS: also, Ihave a hard time remmeber who is who. So, if I have other identifiers I can soon catch up. If I jsut have a name and religion, I forget their other info quickly.

On another board, I was so used to associating posters with their avatars, that I was TOTALLY messed up one time, during a "theme avatar" craze!! :doh:

[Philothei]

Ihave a hard time remmeber who is who.


Are you sure you are 30?;) .....just kidding.....^_^

Philothei

[Thekla]

(or lost the gumption).

gumption; this is a fine word, and should be used more frequently :thumbsup:

[Xpycoctomos]

gumption; this is a fine word, and should be used more frequently :thumbsup:
Well, if you'd show your age, I would say that you just like it becuase of your age. But now i can't blindly judge you based on your word preference ;) lol

[Xpycoctomos]

Ihave a hard time remmeber who is who.


Are you sure you are 30?;) .....just kidding.....^_^

Philothei
That's what my wife asks me all the time (actually, I am now 29 ;))

Xpy

[Protoevangel]

Hey, one of my favorite posters began blowing me away with her knowledge and wisdom when she was only 15, iirc (she is 17 now).

But I also very much respect old fogies like Xpy, too.

:D

[Thekla]

Well, if you'd show your age, I would say that you just like it becuase of your age. But now i can't blindly judge you based on your word preference ;) lol
I'm so old, I need my daughter's help to list my age on here (to load and remember) ^_^

(daughter says I'm 46 -- sounds good :thumbsup:)

[Orthosdoxa]

I'm 32 and if it means that much, I'm happy to display it. But I think most people here who've spent any time chatting with me know I'm in my 30's. I'm not sure why it's hidden. :scratch:

[Xpycoctomos]

i didn't know that. I probably did at one time... but with some 20 regulars in here and a real life of my own to follow, it's difficult to remember that stuff. :)

[Xpycoctomos]

lol, well there is one that used to come here, Marjorie. She is probably ... 20? now, but she was like 16 at the time. She was by far one of the most impressive people here regardless of age. I used to wonder if she made a mistake with her age.

Xpy

[Philothei]

I'm so old, I need my daughter's help to list my age on here (to load and remember) ^_^

(daughter says I'm 46 -- sounds good :thumbsup:)
Yeah Thekla what's up with you "hidding" your age ...;) . or are you going to use the excuse you do not know how to put up your age....^_^

Philothei

[Orthosdoxa]

There ya go Rus. :P

[TrueHope]

In all honesty, if it weren't for the birthday and year info in our profiles, I'd forget how old I am.....Not a good sign for me age, eh?!? ;)

[rusmeister]

Some good comments here - I appreciate the responses.

I tried to say in the OP that it is acknowledged and not debated that older people can act like fools and some young people can express real wisdom, so anyone still trying to make that point is missing mine.

On commanding respect I have learned that there are 2 kinds -
1)the kind that must be earned (this has been mentioned by others here)
2) the kind that is accorded to the 'uniform'; to the position a person holds regardless of what they have earned. In the military, the distinction and necessity of both kinds of respect is acknowledged. This merely reflects a general truth of life, and is not limited to military necessity. We would not tell a child to obey their mother only if the mother had earned the child's respect. The simple fact that she is a mother demands respect - it is the 'uniform' she wears. We have to respect our bosses whether they earn it or not. Etc... What I am saying is that there is a general type of respect that ought to be accorded to age that many, particularly in Western culture, in fact do now not accord.

Having said that, I would not support using age as a reason to win an argument or debate - that, of course, is unreasonable. But there is still something wrong when a much younger person (all other things being equal) holds their experience and opinions formed from them on a par with a much older person. Wherever you draw the line, I'm saying there is a line.

Not to open a can of worms... but it kinda goes both ways. I know many younger people who have little to no respect for those older then them and admittedly it is a shame. However, on the flip side, I've encountered any number of people in their 30's, 40's + who fit this description and I've also seen several news articles talking about it, that many older people in the US are simply acting more like you'd expect someone in their teens or twenties to act. If people are going to act like their younger (and thus presumably more immature) counterparts why should the mere fact that they are X years older than you garner them instant respect? I think that in part is part of the reason you don't see much respect from younger people toward those older than them. They have to little reason to grant such respect, their elders act exactly like they do and in some cases worse than they do. After they see it enough it becomes easier to default to little or no respect when first encountering someone new than to default to a decent level of respect as may have been the case in the past.

As I said, this has been acknowledged and misses the point I am trying to make.

I would propose that respect should be given to everyone regardless of age, and other factors, but at the same time, we should try to earn the respect of others.

It bothers me that there are so many people that don't respect younger people. I began studying iconography at the age of 14, and not to brag, but by the time I was in my early 20s, I already had much more experience, and had developed more refined skills than many people twice my age.. It had an awful lot to do with the amount of time that I was able to devote to painting, the amount of time that I was able to spend with my teacher, the quality of the criticism that I received, and my willingness to heed that criticism. And yet, I found it very difficult until the last year or two to get people to see past the fact that I was in my twenties. It took me years to earn people's respect (for lack of a better word), and I can tell you that it really tried my patience.

But ultimately, no one will respect you unless you show them that you are worthy of respect. I always try to respect my elders, as well as people that are my own age or younger, but to really keep my respect, one needs to demonstrate that my respect is well placed.

And to be honest, Rus, I tend to have a problem respecting those who insist on being respected. When people constantly refer to their qualifications, or bring up the amount of experience they have, it is often times because they have quantity of experience that they think will hold weight, rather than quality of experience that grants wisdom.

Hi, Nutroll!
I certainly agree that all persons regardless of age ought to be accorded respect. That's another axiom as far as I am concerned. We may differ about the quality of the respect, but I agree with you in principle.

As to your second point, how would you respond to respect due to 'the uniform' (in this case age)? What do you think about eastern cultures that do place great importance on this?

As to your third point, it is true that my experience on this forums has lead me to bring this point up as a thread. When I participated in education threads, I found that as a person who has had a great deal of experience in terms of both quantity and quality, my own posts were not responded to at all and I wound up watching virtual groups of people spouting their own opinions and not taking either the age or experience of either myself or others into account.

I am not saying that this is the case with you, but that you don't need to constantly point out how old you are, or what your life experiences are in order to be taken seriously. The quality of what you say should make that experience evident.

My bleat is precisely that we very often do not take seriously the experience accorded by age and professional experience of others here. A great many people here seem to think that all opinions are created equal, so while your sentiment is the proper ideal, it is not in fact what I experience here. Any person with special experience in a field would be perturbed at people without said experience holding their opinions on a par, just as people who have been married for 20+ years might be a little annoyed at a young person who had not been married, or married for a short time, who was dispensing 'wisdom' of their own and yet not paying attention to what people who really had significant experience of marriage were saying. And this is what actually happens here.

[Thekla]

Yeah Thekla what's up with you "hidding" your age ...;) . or are you going to use the excuse you do not know how to put up your age....^_^

Philothei
Hey, it took me half-an hour just to figure out how to change my dress

^_^^_^

[TrueHope]

Hey, it took me half-an hour just to figure out how to change my dress

^_^^_^
Oh, I so hear ya there!

[fuerein]

Respect due a 'uniform', as you call it, is only a relevant type of respect given two conditions: 1) it is socially agreed that some 'uniform' deserves respect, and 2) that the people who wear said 'uniform' have not tarnished it so it is no longer viewed to be worthy of respect.

With regard to point 1 and age, the last several generations of adults have gone out of their way to be viewed as being nothing more than younger compatriot's equal. They rebelled at being called sir, ma'am, Mr. X, and Mrs. Y because being called sir or ma'am made them feel old... All those forms of respect that were drilled in previous generations are largely a quaint relic to most people my age precisely because our elders refused them, in fact many were offended by such forms.

With regard to point 2. And this gets back to the point that I made earlier that you felt was not relevant, though I disagree. Many younger people feel their elders have tarnished themselves and thus are unworthy of any default respect. Yes a uniform may imply a certain due respect but once it has been defiled many no longer see any due respect being held by the uniform.

Your concept of uniform respect is entirely dependant on unspoken social agreements. Once one or both parties refuses the agreement it is no longer a binding contract no matter how much the one or the other group may dislike the results afterward. And in this case I would say both parties have walked away from the agreement that elders deserve respect and it was only afterward that the elders determined that, hey maybe it wasn't such a horrible arraingement and they dislike the end results. The trouble is the agreement was already broke.

[nutroll]

Hi, Nutroll!
I certainly agree that all persons regardless of age ought to be accorded respect. That's another axiom as far as I am concerned. We may differ about the quality of the respect, but I agree with you in principle.

Hi, rusmeister! I'm glad we agree, it doesn't happen all that often, so it is reason to rejoice!

As to your second point, how would you respond to respect due to 'the uniform' (in this case age)? What do you think about eastern cultures that do place great importance on this?

I can't say that I am entirely enthralled with the idea of respect of 'the uniform'. I think often it becomes unhealthy, in that it stresses the idea that respect has nothing to do with conduct, and actually encourages those who wear 'the uniform' to abuse the power that they have in a relationship. This is not to say that I am completely against it. A parent by virtue of giving birth to, raised, supported and educated a child is due a certain degree of respect, whether the child realizes it or not. A bishop or priest deserves respect because we acknowledge that they are Christ's representatives in the Sacramental life of the church. However, when this type of respect is abused, the formal respect for their office should not be ignored, but almost all personal respect will vanish. I personally, would rather not be respected at all than respected just because of an outfit, badge, or other symbol of my office that I wear.

As to your third point, it is true that my experience on this forums has lead me to bring this point up as a thread. When I participated in education threads, I found that as a person who has had a great deal of experience in terms of both quantity and quality, my own posts were not responded to at all and I wound up watching virtual groups of people spouting their own opinions and not taking either the age or experience of either myself or others into account.

With all due respect (pun very much intended) I think you are mistaking dialogue for lack of respect. This is a message board. People have all sorts of off topic, sometimes inane things to say, and there is nothing wrong with it. In the last few threads on education, I have respected your desire to not have people like me respond, but I think it is absurd to ask for that. What is wrong with people who don't share your experience offering their opinions? You are free to point out their errors, the weaknesses in their arguments, and to offer alternative explanations. Yes, all opinions are not equal, but that being said, my opinion is usually better than your opinion, unless you can change my mind. That's the subjective nature of human experience, and no one is going to change their mind by shutting up and reading what you post. By interacting with you, even if their opinions are garbage, they might just give you the opportunity to change their minds.



My bleat is precisely that we very often do not take seriously the experience accorded by age and professional experience of others here. A great many people here seem to think that all opinions are created equal, so while your sentiment is the proper ideal, it is not in fact what I experience here. Any person with special experience in a field would be perturbed at people without said experience holding their opinions on a par, just as people who have been married for 20+ years might be a little annoyed at a young person who had not been married, or married for a short time, who was dispensing 'wisdom' of their own and yet not paying attention to what people who really had significant experience of marriage were saying. And this is what actually happens here. The problem is that it is rare for people to speak about something with which they don't have experience. A newly married person might not have the same experience as a person married 20 years, but depending on what they have experienced so far, they might. Their posts will show this. We recently had a discussion on God the Father in icons, and though I have done a lot more studying on the issue than some others, I don't feel the need to point out my relevant experience. It should be obvious by what I post (I'm not saying my posts were necessarily that insightful, but...) In the end, I guess what I am trying to say is that you ought to act as though no respect was due to you for whatever reason, and through what you say, show that your opinion is indeed worthy of respect.

Also, just as a slight aside, I hate the expression "all things being equal" because they never are. Just as all opinions are not equal.

[Philothei]

Rus, I would second nutroll's post although I would like to point out that "cultural" differences count. In more traditional societies such as Europe in general "being" formal or "in uniform" had value. Today even in traditional societies we see this "respect" has gone bye bye. Shocking example for me was when my cousin's husband called my dad by his first name....:eek: that was not acceptable about 30 years ago.. in my country.

As per priests.... and hierarchs there is so minimal respect in this land than others... will not go there either. But I think you are barking up the wrong tree..:| It is not the youth's fault for not respecting the older generation but ours... we (as our parents before us) gave in to that.... We prefered to call Jesus our friend than our Lord....etc...

We threw away the baby with the bath water... now it is too late I fear. But... as the Fathers of our Church suggest we try to teach by example and that would be by showing humility and good parental example to our children. This is the way I try to teach "respect" to my child by respecting her first and respecting others around me. I am not perfect and I have my ....times that I make mistakes...

As far as the foru.ms here well... I agree with Nutroll. Although others might know our "experiences" or our knowledge I do not expect them to "fall into their knees" for my opinion or knowledge which it can be as infalible as anyone's here.

I guess it is human nature for people to challenge the ones who are considered knowledgable. If we think of how many times we walked into that doctor's office or dentist and we knew excatly what was wrong with us before we even got the tests.... we will see how little trust we give to "professionals"...:doh:

God bless,
Philothei

p.s personally the reason i do not participate in the ed. threads is that i am not too knowledgable about education in this country and do not want to mess it up....with my ignorance....:eek:

[rusmeister]

Thanks again for the comments! Fuerin, good thoughts on uniform respect! (I'll add mine below)


I can't say that I am entirely enthralled with the idea of respect of 'the uniform'. I think often it becomes unhealthy, in that it stresses the idea that respect has nothing to do with conduct, and actually encourages those who wear 'the uniform' to abuse the power that they have in a relationship. This is not to say that I am completely against it. A parent by virtue of giving birth to, raised, supported and educated a child is due a certain degree of respect, whether the child realizes it or not. A bishop or priest deserves respect because we acknowledge that they are Christ's representatives in the Sacramental life of the church. However, when this type of respect is abused, the formal respect for their office should not be ignored, but almost all personal respect will vanish. I personally, would rather not be respected at all than respected just because of an outfit, badge, or other symbol of my office that I wear.
This first thought seems to imply that the concept of uniform respect is optional. Fuerin made a good point that it can be based on social agreement (although with small children we impose it by force). It's something that we acknowledge the existence of, whether you like it or not. Rejecting the 'agreement' IS optional, but that doesn't eliminate the concept.
Also, Fuerin is quite right about consequences when we throw this out the window (as your last comment seems to do). I'll take it a little further and say that it ultimately leads to anarchy in society. Let's take the examples of the military, the Church or parents. What would happen if we say that respect of uniform is no longer required? The miltary would fall apart in minutes, we would have a prayer group instead of a Church, and would have total anarchy in the nation as children rose up against their parents. (Oh yeah, on the last it seems that they are already.)


With all due respect (pun very much intended) I think you are mistaking dialogue for lack of respect. This is a message board. People have all sorts of off topic, sometimes inane things to say, and there is nothing wrong with it. In the last few threads on education, I have respected your desire to not have people like me respond, but I think it is absurd to ask for that. What is wrong with people who don't share your experience offering their opinions? You are free to point out their errors, the weaknesses in their arguments, and to offer alternative explanations. Yes, all opinions are not equal, but that being said, my opinion is usually better than your opinion, unless you can change my mind. That's the subjective nature of human experience, and no one is going to change their mind by shutting up and reading what you post. By interacting with you, even if their opinions are garbage, they might just give you the opportunity to change their minds.
This idea doesn't work if you want to have constructive dialog, the operative word being constructive - the attempt to build and disseminate knowledge. You need agreement on base concepts, an acknowledgement of superior knowledge and experience (how on earth could you run a university course to teach anybody anything if you invited everyone to shoot off their opinions all the time??? There can be a place for opinions in such a course, but they must not be allowed to dominate the course.)
Don't know if you know what a 'Chekhovian' conversation is, but basically it's the kind of dialog employed in Chekhov's plays, where all of the characters are talking past each other - each is pouring out his own thoughts and no one is listening to anyone else. That is exactly what happens on education threads, and on a number of others as well, I imagine.
Oh, and I never ever asked 'people like you' not to respond. I merely asked that people do a little elementary research and reading before offering uninformed opinions, and it was more reading other authorities rather than me. Again, there must be a common base - things that everybody knows about - before you can begin to get anywhere.


The problem is that it is rare for people to speak about something with which they don't have experience. A newly married person might not have the same experience as a person married 20 years, but depending on what they have experienced so far, they might. Their posts will show this. We recently had a discussion on God the Father in icons, and though I have done a lot more studying on the issue than some others, I don't feel the need to point out my relevant experience. It should be obvious by what I post (I'm not saying my posts were necessarily that insightful, but...) In the end, I guess what I am trying to say is that you ought to act as though no respect was due to you for whatever reason, and through what you say, show that your opinion is indeed worthy of respect.
I'll try to clarify that I agree entirely on earning respect. It is very important. What I am speaking to as far as forums go is more than anything else the kind of disrespect when a person ignores what others are saying altogether and merely expresses their own opinion. This makes it really hard to see that others may have experience peculiar to various questions or areas of life. You tend to notice it when you are the one who actually has that experience. In my case it happens to be professional teaching - what is called education. But this isn't limited to forums - you just flip on "Dateline" or whatever and watch it as accepted public practice in what passes for modern 'civilized' society.

Also, just as a slight aside, I hate the expression "all things being equal" because they never are. Just as all opinions are not equal.
Very true. However, the expression does enable me to single out the specific idea that I am targeting, which is necessary if you want to define or understand a concept.

Rus, I would second nutroll's post although I would like to point out that "cultural" differences count. In more traditional societies such as Europe in general "being" formal or "in uniform" had value. Today even in traditional societies we see this "respect" has gone bye bye. Shocking example for me was when my cousin's husband called my dad by his first name....:eek: that was not acceptable about 30 years ago.. in my country.

As per priests.... and hierarchs there is so minimal respect in this land than others... will not go there either. But I think you are barking up the wrong tree..:| It is not the youth's fault for not respecting the older generation but ours... we (as our parents before us) gave in to that.... We prefered to call Jesus our friend than our Lord....etc...

We threw away the baby with the bath water... now it is too late I fear. But... as the Fathers of our Church suggest we try to teach by example and that would be by showing humility and good parental example to our children. This is the way I try to teach "respect" to my child by respecting her first and respecting others around me. I am not perfect and I have my ....times that I make mistakes...
I quite agree! And yes, the Church is the way to restore what can be restored of that humility. I guess one way I don't live up to the example of the Holy Fathers is by not quietly accepting everyone dissing me, but at the same feel that that feeling ought to be communicated. Maybe I'm wrong on that.
As far as the foru.ms here well... I agree with Nutroll. Although others might know our "experiences" or our knowledge I do not expect them to "fall into their knees" for my opinion or knowledge which it can be as infalible as anyone's here.

I guess it is human nature for people to challenge the ones who are considered knowledgable. If we think of how many times we walked into that doctor's office or dentist and we knew excatly what was wrong with us before we even got the tests.... we will see how little trust we give to "professionals"...:doh:
The idea that I would want people to fall before their knees before my expertise misunderstands what I am saying. I am trying to point out a general lack of respect, and yes, humility for what we don't know. There seems to be a huge trend to encourage everyone to think of themselves as an armchair expert on everything - the 'What's your opinion?" culture which ignores our own limitations and asks what we think about everything. What we think is of little value until we learn something first. Does that make any sense?

p.s personally the reason i do not participate in the ed. threads is that i am not too knowledgable about education in this country and do not want to mess it up....with my ignorance....:eek:

If only we all shared this attitude about what we are ignorant of! :)

[-Kyriaki-]

Slightly off topic, but I want an 'age label' in real life - I'm about 5'1' and small boned with long hair and I don't wear makeup much. Everyone thinks I'm about 14 everywhere I go...sigh.

[MsDahl]

I was considering hiding my age now that I turned 30 out of pure sadness for having to confront that number more than I care to...hehe But no, I didn't. I wear that number like a badge of honor.:cool:

To be a bit more serious though, I strongly believe in respecting one's elders. I am raising my child to address adults with a term of respect (Ms. so and so). However, I disagree with continuuing to provide respect to an elder who is blatantly disrespectful. An elder deserves respect simply for living life longer and having more wisdom due to that but the moment an elder behaves as a fool would and no different than a reckless adolescent, that automatic respect is no longer warranted as there is no wisdom present.

Edit: I see that this was addressed already.

Also, in regards to your comments on the education thread, I'd like to point out that most people use public forums as a place to discuss their perspectives (to understand their own thoughts better and to possibly gain advice from others). Most people who are looking for an authoritative perspective on an issue will search out primary sources on a particular subject. If they are using a message forum, more than likely they want to interact with other's who are just regular 'ol people like them going through the same thing they are going through.

[SpyridonOCA]

I am a 21 year old male.

[OnTheWay]

I tend to think an underlying issue is largely being overlooked, namely on an internet posting board no one is neccesarily what they say they are. As such it's simply natural in such a faceless environment to judge by posts and not claims which can neither be verified nor found false.

[Akathist]

The only things I have hidden is my marital status. But that is not to be secretive. It is because my marital status is so messed up. I am married but alone and have been now for three years. There is no symbol that says "sort of married"..... or "not yet divorced".

I think my status as an "independent" for political might be hidden (I don't remember). I don't mind everyone knowing I am an Independent. But I don't post in the area were my politics matters so I might not have it showing.

I don't care if people know my age. I earned every one of the years I have. I plan to celebrate every birthday to come and look forward to being "over 50". I feel like i am starting to grow into the age I have been for a long time.

Back in the days of being into New Age (etc) people used to tell me all the time that I had an "old soul". I knew better. I am just an old stick in the mud, always have been always will be.

[Xpycoctomos]

Respect due a 'uniform', as you call it, is only a relevant type of respect given two conditions: 1) it is socially agreed that some 'uniform' deserves respect, and 2) that the people who wear said 'uniform' have not tarnished it so it is no longer viewed to be worthy of respect.

With regard to point 1 and age, the last several generations of adults have gone out of their way to be viewed as being nothing more than younger compatriot's equal. They rebelled at being called sir, ma'am, Mr. X, and Mrs. Y because being called sir or ma'am made them feel old... All those forms of respect that were drilled in previous generations are largely a quaint relic to most people my age precisely because our elders refused them, in fact many were offended by such forms.

With regard to point 2. And this gets back to the point that I made earlier that you felt was not relevant, though I disagree. Many younger people feel their elders have tarnished themselves and thus are unworthy of any default respect. Yes a uniform may imply a certain due respect but once it has been defiled many no longer see any due respect being held by the uniform.

Your concept of uniform respect is entirely dependant on unspoken social agreements. Once one or both parties refuses the agreement it is no longer a binding contract no matter how much the one or the other group may dislike the results afterward. And in this case I would say both parties have walked away from the agreement that elders deserve respect and it was only afterward that the elders determined that, hey maybe it wasn't such a horrible arraingement and they dislike the end results. The trouble is the agreement was already broke.
Interesting thoughts on society. Good points.

Let's all put our ages up.

[Xpycoctomos]

I am a 21 year old male.
Let me make a note of it here in my special Age note-taker for friends in TAw... just a sec...

Hey, I've got an easier idea! let's all just put our ages up! :)

Doc Ock

PS: While I do think there is no good reason to not put one's age up (at least not mentioned here) except for the tech reason, honestly it's not that big of a deal. I just think it is a bit reactionary to think that age doesn't matter at all just because we can all sight exceptions to the norm. Maybe we'll learn that a lot of our expected "norms" are off. But, it's hard to know that when a lot of people don't put up their age. So until then, my evil stereotypes continue!!!! bwa hahahahah! (evil laugh)

Doc Ock

[Philothei]

The idea that I would want people to fall before their knees before my expertise misunderstands what I am saying. I am trying to point out a general lack of respect, and yes, humility for what we don't know.

But... Rus if you tell people that they think automatically that you are full of yourself and that is how "they" want to understand it ...that is how it is rationalized...



There seems to be a huge trend to encourage everyone to think of themselves as an armchair expert on everything - the 'What's your opinion?" culture which ignores our own limitations and asks what we think about everything. What we think is of little value until we learn something first. Does that make any sense?

Yes it does makes sense and I agree there is no humility anymore.... that is an old story. Also there is no respect about "specialization" only "do it yourself" philosophy... It is implemented in our consumeristic society. So you rather do a "self study" on any given area including religion than talk to your local priest is a good example.

God bless,
Philothei

[rusmeister]

The idea that I would want people to fall before their knees before my expertise misunderstands what I am saying. I am trying to point out a general lack of respect, and yes, humility for what we don't know.

But... Rus if you tell people that they think automatically that you are full of yourself and that is how "they" want to understand it ...that is how it is rationalized...



There seems to be a huge trend to encourage everyone to think of themselves as an armchair expert on everything - the 'What's your opinion?" culture which ignores our own limitations and asks what we think about everything. What we think is of little value until we learn something first. Does that make any sense?

Yes it does makes sense and I agree there is no humility anymore.... that is an old story. Also there is no respect about "specialization" only "do it yourself" philosophy... It is implemented in our consumeristic society. So you rather do a "self study" on any given area including religion than talk to your local priest is a good example.

God bless,
Philothei
You do make a good point - that is a serious problem with any call to humility.

It is quite a tightrope when you genuinely know things through personal experience rather than simply have theoretical opinions on a subject, and yet need to exercise humility. I think it's the distinction between humility and false humility (when you really are good at something and try to convince yourself that you're not - picked that up from Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters", I think). Age happens to be one of the most important conductors of general experience, just as a profession or specific place in life can transmit specific experience. That may be a line that needs to be better defined - general experience of life such as marriage and length of marriage, divorce, the number of people who have died on you through more-or-less natural causes, etc. vs specific professional experience in teaching, policing, nursing, legal or what-have-you.

OntheWay, you can be right in that some people do deliberately deceive others on the neenernet (to cop Rob's favorite term), but on an Orthodox Christian forum I don't worry too much about that - it's kind of counterproductive to the Faith. I think we can (most of the time) safely trust that most people here are being honest.

Akathist, I would say that some of the information is more significant than other info - politics would be far less significant than faith, and age more than marital status. They tell a lot more about where you're coming from.
There was a poster who made a comment on a thread recently without even a faith icon. Makes it awful hard to tell where they're coming from or what their base assumptions about life are. You can't know how to respond to them. You have to go back and ask a lot of questions that having a faith icon would answer, like "Do you accept the Nicene Creed?" etc.

Amazing, Xpy (I keep seeing it as /hroo/)!
We agree on something! Quick! Mark the date! :P

Ms Dahl: yes, I agree. perhaps it's naive of me to hope that people would recognize that I really am an uncommon expert in my field. (No sarcasm intended) I really do want to write my own book as a primary source and just want to get feedback to try to better learn how to communicate what I want to say - to get the message past the sleeping dragons, so to speak.

[Khaleas]

Slightly off topic, but I want an 'age label' in real life - I'm about 5'1' and small boned with long hair and I don't wear makeup much. Everyone thinks I'm about 14 everywhere I go...sigh.
I'll be 32 later this year and I still get carded ALL the time (even in Finland where the drinking age is 18 and they say they stop carding after people are 25). Most people think I'm around 26. Most of the time I just take it as a compliment since I just say that I hope the same goes for when I'm 50 :P. But it's a bit annoying when I get carded but hubs doesn't and he's 5 years younger than me (and looks his age). People just assume that the wife is younger than the husband.

As for the uniform I totally hear you on that... When hubs first got commissioned he found it so tough being in charge of people that have been in the Navy for 20 years and are twice his age. So there is a very fine line to walk to respect their knowledge and at the same time be in charge in a way they respect. Some officers are able to walk this line, some are not. The best way to not get respected is to come in and think you know everything as a newly commissioned officer... and no one will ever respect you.
According to protocol everything we did at our wedding was terrible. Our crown bearers were both enlisted while my husband is an officer (some protocol freak would have said that he ordered them to - which of course was the standing joke) and we also had the enlisted guys give the officers the orders for the sword arch. Thing is that all the officers had a HUGE amount of respect for the enlisted as they had several deployments under their belts and more bling than these guys will see in years. Still there was a mutual respect that set them on basically the same line for the day.

I have to agree with Nutroll that respect has to be earned. I've been brought up to show a basic respect for older people and I will show a 'good manner' one. However, past that it needs to be earned in both directions. I have to say that many old people whine and complain about how young people have no manners and no respect but in the next moment they elbow you in the stomach and cut in line (been there, felt that).
And I totally agree with the fact that much blame is to fall on parents at this point... time to take off the silk gloves and put down some rules. You're the parent, not the best buddy!

[rusmeister]

I have to agree with Nutroll that respect has to be earned. I've been brought up to show a basic respect for older people and I will show a 'good manner' one. However, past that it needs to be earned in both directions. I have to say that many old people whine and complain about how young people have no manners and no respect but in the next moment they elbow you in the stomach and cut in line (been there, felt that).
And I totally agree with the fact that much blame is to fall on parents at this point... time to take off the silk gloves and put down some rules. You're the parent, not the best buddy!

Well, I hope it's clear that you're also agreeing with the rest of us (me included)that there is such a thing as earning respect. Nobody's arguing that, nor that there are people who should be accorded respect (such as our elders or anyone in a position of authority) who behave badly and forfeit respect.

Parents can be 'blamed' or 'honored' for childhood development, but this influence wanes when a child steps out into the world and the child begins to act and think more independently, being influenced by friends, school, etc., so I would say that there is a measure of blame on the society we live in (and tolerate).

To a certain extent we can talk about how uniform respect and earned respect play out on internet forums (the virtual world), but it's really only a reflection of what's going on in the real world.

As far as forums go, I'll say that if a person presents themselves as a cop or therapist, I'll take them at their word and conditionally accord to them a measure of authority that I don't have in those fields (uniform respect). If I see over time that what they say explains or coincides with my own experience, this can grow into earned respect. If not, then the uniform respect may remain even without the earned variety. I'll disagree with them, think them messed up or crazy or just plain wrong but I'll probably still accord them their experience.
Similarly, if two people are commenting on the problems of, say, a 20-year marriage, one of them (claiming to be) 15 years old and one of them 50, I'll analyze what they say and see if what they say reflects their relative (claimed) ages and if there are no apparent contradictions I'll conditionally accord the older person a measure of experience the younger person would not be likely to have, in other words, that there can be things that a significantly older person would know that a younger person would not yet have had time to learn
(setting aside the problem of education temporarily).

In summa, there are things where age makes a difference, and when I find them, I will discriminate (be discriminating). If you're 15, I can accord great intelligence and even genius, but not broad life experience.

On the topic of age (or whatever) concealment, when people conceal things like their age or gender or especially faith, I am more sceptical of what they have to say because you can't know where they're coming from. Trying to understand the context of naked electronic postings with no presuppositions to work from leads us to wildly misunderstand one another, and I think we would agree at least that this is a big problem in forum communication.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

A lot of the issue with me personally (here comes my self-absorption kicking in) is that I don't think that kind of info about me is of any importance to others. I don't know if it's due to autism or if it's psychologically embedded into me from my upbringing or what.

One example is a thread I started way over a year ago named "My Wife Left Me" with a sad smilie. I was lamenting the fact that she was gone to her mom's for the weekend and decided to post it as a joke. When so many people reacted strongly, I was puzzled because, after all, it's just me.

I get where you are coming from because it helps me to understand people on here better to know if they are married/single, which faith, age, etc. My natural detachment just keeps me from really understanding how my information could matter to others.

It's not a kind of humility, believe me, it's just a weird quirk. It's like I'm an outside observer who sometimes participates in conversations but always from the outside. I don't feel like I'm part of a community, even at Church. I realize that I am joined with others mystically but I just feel like an individual who is there to pray. I barely have any kind of relationship with anyone outside of Church besides my wife and son. I never go to visit people, I have very few friends, I'm never sincerely invited to parties because I'm no fun in a group setting.

But also understand that I'm not complaining and please don't view me as some kind of tragic figure because of it. It's just the way I've always been. I don't require human interaction the way most people do.

I think that's why I love this board so much. I can interact with people without having to rely on things like body language and facial expressions (neither of which I can read) and people tend to articulate themselves more precisely in this kind of medium because those aren't usable here. The use of smilies helps as well because I can read them.

I could go on and on. Self-absorption is a primary trait of autism.

Anyway, that wasn't to elicit pity, just to add another perspective to the issue.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

Well, I hope it's clear that you're also agreeing with the rest of us (me included)that there is such a thing as earning respect. Nobody's arguing that, nor that there are people who should be accorded respect (such as our elders or anyone in a position of authority) who behave badly and forfeit respect.

A saying I sometimes use, though it is probably wrong, is "Respect is granted until lost; trust is withheld until earned."

[contriteheart]

.

[contriteheart]

.

[contriteheart]

Sorry to butt in. Sometimes I forget where I am and mistake your kind toleration of me for an open door to say what I think.

You guys have a nice day! :)

[Orthosdoxa]

Grace - Did someone chastise you? I thought what you said was perfectly fine. :scratch:

[contriteheart]

Thanks, LK. No, no one said a thing. I'm just trying to remember to be sensitive to the desires of some here who have expressed a desire to have TAW be a haven where they can come and have discussions with other Orthodox free from interruptions by non-Orthodox. I respect that, and want to honor those who feel this way.

Sometimes I just speak too quickly.

[Orthosdoxa]

:scratch:

I think that this is only referring to nonOrthodox who come in and constantly play devil's advocate, or feel the need to argue or "make us understand". We have no quarrel with posts that are purely fellowship, as yours appeared to be - there was nothing unOrthodox about it.

[Matrona]

I'm just trying to remember to be sensitive to the desires of some here who have expressed a desire to have TAW be a haven where they can come and have discussions with other Orthodox free from interruptions by non-Orthodox.

They weren't talking about you... :)

[Mary of Bethany]

A lot of the issue with me personally (here comes my self-absorption kicking in) is that I don't think that kind of info about me is of any importance to others. I don't know if it's due to autism or if it's psychologically embedded into me from my upbringing or what.

One example is a thread I started way over a year ago named "My Wife Left Me" with a sad smilie. I was lamenting the fact that she was gone to her mom's for the weekend and decided to post it as a joke. When so many people reacted strongly, I was puzzled because, after all, it's just me.

I get where you are coming from because it helps me to understand people on here better to know if they are married/single, which faith, age, etc. My natural detachment just keeps me from really understanding how my information could matter to others.

It's not a kind of humility, believe me, it's just a weird quirk. It's like I'm an outside observer who sometimes participates in conversations but always from the outside. I don't feel like I'm part of a community, even at Church. I realize that I am joined with others mystically but I just feel like an individual who is there to pray. I barely have any kind of relationship with anyone outside of Church besides my wife and son. I never go to visit people, I have very few friends, I'm never sincerely invited to parties because I'm no fun in a group setting.

But also understand that I'm not complaining and please don't view me as some kind of tragic figure because of it. It's just the way I've always been. I don't require human interaction the way most people do.

I think that's why I love this board so much. I can interact with people without having to rely on things like body language and facial expressions (neither of which I can read) and people tend to articulate themselves more precisely in this kind of medium because those aren't usable here. The use of smilies helps as well because I can read them.

I could go on and on. Self-absorption is a primary trait of autism.

Anyway, that wasn't to elicit pity, just to add another perspective to the issue.

TPFKA -

I can really relate to a lot of what you posted, and I'm not affected by autism or aspergers - I'm just extremely introverted (though less than I used to be). I have always felt a real detachment from whatever group I may be part of - like a stranger looking in the window at everyone else. I even feel detached from my family sometimes.

I have found, though, that this is no longer the case at church. For the first time, I really feel a connexion (love the old british spelling of that word) there, and I know it is only because of the Mystical Body of Christ.

One of these days, by God's grace, I will hopefully learn to give myself to others. It's the hardest thing in the world for me.

Mary

[cassc]

I had my age hidden for a while, I'm not sure why I decided to post it, I guess eventually I just felt comfortable enough. But I think that part of the reason I had it hidden was that I do not often think that people pay much attention to those in their teens and early twenties (hey they are my peers and I often discredit their opinions) and I did not want to be immediately discounted because I am young. In general I read much more than post here and I hope that when I do post it is because I have something legitimate and useful to contribute. I have come to the point where I consider this community to be a place of friends and such trivialities are not necessary to conceal form friends. And I admit I have become quite accustomed to checking out the posters icons to help me interpret their posts. Which ties in to nutroll's comment:


When people constantly refer to their qualifications, or bring up the amount of experience they have, it is often times because they have quantity of experience that they think will hold weight, rather than quality of experience that grants wisdom.... you don't need to constantly point out how old you are, or what your life experiences are in order to be taken seriously. The quality of what you say should make that experience evident.

I have not read and studied as deeply as some others but I have spent my life (however short it might seems to some) in the Orthodox Faith and I often justify myself (I know, it's an annoying trait in real and cyber life) but I appreciate when others tell me why they think their opinion/advice is valid. I try to be respectful in responding to everyones posts regardless of age, and if I think I have valid advice to give I'll probably give it no matter what but the fact is, I speak/type differently to some of the older posters than I do to those younger than myself (usually subconsciously) but I think being able to do so makes a response more relevant. So I guess I see both sides, I understand why people hide their age and I can empathize with those feelings but if I were asked to take a stand I'd say post your info where possible. But that's enough out of me! :help:

[rusmeister]

I had my age hidden for a while, I'm not sure why I decided to post it, I guess eventually I just felt comfortable enough. But I think that part of the reason I had it hidden was that I do not often think that people pay much attention to those in their teens and early twenties (hey they are my peers and I often discredit their opinions) and I did not want to be immediately discounted because I am young. In general I read much more than post here and I hope that when I do post it is because I have something legitimate and useful to contribute. I have come to the point where I consider this community to be a place of friends and such trivialities are not necessary to conceal form friends. And I admit I have become quite accustomed to checking out the posters icons to help me interpret their posts. Which ties in to nutroll's comment:



I have not read and studied as deeply as some others but I have spent my life (however short it might seems to some) in the Orthodox Faith and I often justify myself (I know, it's an annoying trait in real and cyber life) but I appreciate when others tell me why they think their opinion/advice is valid. I try to be respectful in responding to everyones posts regardless of age, and if I think I have valid advice to give I'll probably give it no matter what but the fact is, I speak/type differently to some of the older posters than I do to those younger than myself (usually subconsciously) but I think being able to do so makes a response more relevant. So I guess I see both sides, I understand why people hide their age and I can empathize with those feelings but if I were asked to take a stand I'd say post your info where possible. But that's enough out of me! :help:
Honestly, Cassc, I have a greater respect for younger posters who post their ages. The fear you mention of not being taken seriously by some of the old fa*ts is a prime motivator in claiming that form of anonymity, and the people say "hey, I know who I am, and what my limitations are and I am not afraid" (because of that) have my respect.