The Afterlife

[marvmax]

In another thread someone made reference to the after life. They mentioned that there was a time to repent after death before the final judgment, or that is what I understood them to say. I could be mistaken.

Could someone explain to me the EOC view of the after life or point me somewhere where I can read about it please?

[SeraphimSarov]

In another thread someone made reference to the after life. They mentioned that there was a time to repent after death before the final judgment, or that is what I understood them to say. I could be mistaken.

Could someone explain to me the EOC view of the after life or point me somewhere where I can read about it please?
I think that the argument was that repentance is not possible after death.

[Dorothea]

ORTHODOX ESCHATOLOGY

The Holy Spirit of God, working through the Church and its sacramental life, leads the plan of salvation in Christ to completion and final fulfillment. The final battle with evil that operates in the world will occur just before the coming again of the Lord. In the meantime, the struggle against evil and dark forces in the world continues, with some victories on behalf of the Church, and with some failures on behalf of some of its members. This is the normal condition of the life of the Church, which is the inaugurated Kingdom of God, and which, however, has not yet come fully. Two distinct stages are to be recognized, in terms of Christian Orthodox eschatology: that of a "partial judgment," of a "partial" or "realized" eschatology, and that of a "final judgment," at the coming again of the Lord, which will come at the end of time.

a) Partial judgment - the hour of our death

Our physical death, a consequence of the first man's sin that we still suffer, can be seen in two ways:

negatively, as a kind of catastrophe, especially for those who do not believe in Christ and life everlasting in Him; and
positively, as the end of a maturation process, which leads us to the encounter with our Maker. Christ has destroyed the power of the "last enemy," death (1 Cor. 18:26).A Christian worthy of the name is not afraid of this physical death insofar as it is not accompanied by a spiritual or eternal (eschatological) death.

A partial judgment is instituted immediately after our physical death, which places us in an intermediate condition of partial blessedness (for the righteous), or partial suffering (for the unrighteous).

Disavowing a belief in the Western "Purgatory," our Church believes that a change is possible during this intermediate state and stage. The Church, militant and triumphant, is still one, which means that we can still influence one another with our prayers and our saintly (or ungodly) life. This is the reason why we pray for our dead. Also, almsgiving on behalf of the dead may be of some help to them, without implying, of course, that those who provide the alms are in some fashion "buying" anybody's salvation.

b) General Judgment - the Coming Again of Christ

The early Church lived in expectation of the "day of the Lord," the day of His coming again. The Church later realized that its time is known but to God; still, some signs of Christ's second coming were expected:

The Gospel will be preached everywhere in the world (Matt. 24: 14; Luke 18:8; John 10: 16);
The Jews will be converted to Christ (Rom. 11:25-26; cf. Hosea 3:5);
Elijah, or even Enoch, will return (Mark 9:11);
The Antichrist will appear with numerous false prophets accompanying him (1 John 2:10; 2 Thes. 2:3; Matt. 24:5);
Physical phenomena, upheavals, wars, sufferings will occur (Matt. 24:6; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:25); and,
The world will be destroyed by fire (ekpyrosis; see 2 Peter 3:5).All these signs are expected to be given in due time; without them, the end-time will not come.

The resurrection of the dead is a miracle that will happen at the second coming of the Lord. According to the Creed: "I await the resurrection of the dead." This resurrection will be a new creation. However, our physical bodies as we know them now will be restored, in a spiritualized existence like that of the Lord after His Resurrection.

The final judgment will follow the resurrection of all. Some will rise to the resurrection of life, and some to the resurrection of judgment and condemnation. Christ will be our Judge on the basis of our deeds, our works of love or our acts of wickedness.

The end-time will follow, with a permanent separation between good and evil, between those who will be awarded etemal life of happiness and bliss in heaven, and those who will be condemned to the fire of eternal damnation, to the eternal remorse of their conscience for having rejected God and authentic life in Him and having joined the inauthentic life invented by the devil and his servants.

A new heaven and new earth will be established, inhabited by righteousness (2 Peter 3:13). The Kingdom of God will be fully established; the Church will cease to exist. Finally, the Son of God will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, "that God may be everything to everyone" (1 Cor. 15:28).

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8038.asp

[Akathist]

The EOC does not have a lot of Doctrines with a capital "D" on this subject of the after life. There are generally accepted points of view. (One involves something with the same name as my favorite cookie... a viewpoint I don't abscribe to myself, but cookies are good.)

We can not see or understand the afterlife. We can have allegories of it that come from Father's and Saints of the Church, but we can't fully know what it is.

Here is my limited understanding:
First, it is and will remain a mystery until my body dies. All of the following is conjecture.

I believe that in the After life time as we know it does not exist. Therefore, we may not experience a waiting period while in the afterlife. This means we may experience the second coming of Christ right after death. (Or we might not.) We may experience the Judgement of Christ right away therefore. "He will come to judge the living and the dead." "The ressurection of the dead and the life of the world to come" are other hints about this.

A Judgement I believe includes the opportunity for repentence. Therefore, I hope to repent fully while alive, but I believe that the prayers of others at the time of my death and afterward will help me at the time of Judgement. I am not 100% sure I can repent more at the time of my death or after. I think I will be able to but I am not counting on that. So, I repent now.

There will be a life after death. It is in our creed so I know this is true. There will be a sense of "World" that may be fully physical as it is now, or not. I am not certain. My body will be resurrected. I am not sure if it will be in a different state then it is now. I certainly hope my chronic back problems will be gone.

I could give you links to information about the After life. But any link I give you is to another opinion. All you can get is examples of different opinions.

There is no one opinion about the after life that every EO must believe outside of what is said about the After Life in the Creed. We do not for example have to believe that there is a literal hell as is often described by protestants. I am on the wall on that subject myself. I believe it is possible that no one will go to a hell. But, it is also possible that everyone will be in thier own hell and will work thier way out of it through purification.

On the other hand, I believe that Christ will determine such things. I have opinions, but I maintain always that my opinions are me "looking in the window darkly" (St. Paul... a paraphrase).

Bottom line: don't take any one person's opinion to represent how all EO's view the afterlife. (Aside of course the content of the Nicene Creed which we all do agree with.)

[marvmax]

Dorthea;
I like your description. Thanks for sharing that. Let me ask another question of you, and I understand that it may just be your opinion. Do you think that those who never had a chance to even hear about the Savior will have a chance in the after life before the final resurrection.

Akathist;
I'm not an expert in EOC but I would have to question your statement

Therefore, we may not experience a waiting period while in the afterlife. This means we may experience the second coming of Christ right after death.
As I understand it the EOC veneration of Saints is based on the idea that they are still alive, just somewhere else, and when they are venerated it would be like asking a friend who is alive here on Earth to pray for us. How could this happen if they were not cognizant of a passage of time? Or are Saints in a different class from normal Christians in the after life? Of course you did include this

(Or we might not.)

[Philothei]

the saints are living in Heaven in the company of God himself. They are the Church Triumphant. Out of their great love for mankind they care and they are with us when we call upon them in prayer. They are with us in spirit not flesh. Their existance is spiritualized. They do not have any human needs, yet they dwel in our world.

In other word they are "alive" in another way that is in a "tranfigurated" way without having the bodily needs and cares since their bodies are spiritualized.
someone else can elaborate more on this....

God bless,
Philothei

[Dorothea]

Dorthea;
I like your description. Thanks for sharing that. Let me ask another question of you, and I understand that it may just be your opinion. Do you think that those who never had a chance to even hear about the Savior will have a chance in the after life before the final resurrection.


Yes. Only God knows the heart of a person. :)

[Akathist]

Akathist;
I'm not an expert in EOC but I would have to question your statement


Quote:
Therefore, we may not experience a waiting period while in the afterlife. This means we may experience the second coming of Christ right after death.
As I understand it the EOC veneration of Saints is based on the idea that they are still alive, just somewhere else, and when they are venerated it would be like asking a friend who is alive here on Earth to pray for us. How could this happen if they were not cognizant of a passage of time? Or are Saints in a different class from normal Christians in the after life? Of course you did include this



Quote:
(Or we might not.)





After the Second Coming of Christ there will be life. The Saints could be in the life that is after Christ's Second Coming. (or maybe they are not)

We believe that there is life after death. Some believe that this is true for all people, Saints and those like the rest of us who are sinners and believers. (Some regardless of if someone is a believer or not). So, the Saints are very much alive.

If it is God's will that the Saints be aware of our requests for prayers, then they are aware. If it is not God's will then they will not be aware. I don't know the mind of God. But, I believe that my requests are heard and that the Saints intercede for me (and you... all people.)

Please remember I am only a EO person. I am not trained or educated in doctrines or theology. I might like to go to seminary to study but I have not been there. Don't take my word for anything. I am just speaking to what I understand to be true.

The only thing I know to be true about the After Life is what is in the Nicene Creed. The rest is my opinion based on reading things my Priest has given me.

[SpyridonOCA]

Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife,
According to the Bible
[QUOTE]
An early draft of this article was edited by Archpriest Thomas Hopko, retired dean of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary (OCA), and this final copy has the approval of His Grace Lazar Puhalo (OCA), noted theologian, retired archbishop of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and abbot of New Ostrog Monastery near Vancouver, British Columbia.
John Kalomiros wrote: "I read the article by P. Chopelas carefully. I believe that it is correct. It certainly contributes to a meaningful idea of God and to a correct understanding of the nature of Heaven and Hell. ... the general concept that heaven and hell only represent how a man's soul responds in the presence of the light of God is sound and patristic. Certainly the problem of how Christians receive the teaching of the Church on Heaven and Hell is not only a linguistic problem arising from false translations, but it is also a conceptual and cultural problem."
Fr. James Bernstein of St. Paul's Antiochian Orthodox Church, Briar, WA, wrote: "I thought that the material that you wrote on Heaven and Hell was very good. I especially appreciated the detailed word analysis that I intend to include in my catechetical presentation of the subject. I present a full session on Heaven and Hell in my catechism series which is now up to about 27 sessions!"
Pani Frederica Mathewes-Green, author, lecturer, and wife of an Antiochian Orthodox priest, said: "...thanks for all your hard work on this. It is extremely helpful... God bless you..." and, "I think the concept is fascinating and have begun incorporating this information into my speeches."

http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

[Akathist]

The link to aggreen.net is very good. I also recommend it. But be aware that not everyone fully agrees with its content who are Orthodox.

[SpyridonOCA]

But be aware that not everyone fully agrees with its content who are Orthodox.

Please elaborate.

[Akathist]

We have had long debates in TAW in the past on this issue. I actually would agree with the content but there are people who do not.

That article is very good. I just don't like the idea of giving someone the idea that one article on the subject is THE EO view when I know from past discussions around here that it is permissible to be EO and believe otherwise about the after life as long as the content of the Nicene Creed is agreed with.

[marvmax]

Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife,
According to the Bible

http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html
That was a very good article. Extremely interesting, especially the part about the word energy.

I do have one question. The author says that Western Christianity is wrong in saying that God punishes people and creates a place where they are punished such as hell. However, I don't really see the difference between creating a place for people to be punished, and the fact that being in the presence of God will be punishment in itself. Either way it sounds like God is eternally punishing people. Or is there something about the gulf that allows people to withdraw to a place where the punishment is not so great.

Also, that article sounds like there is no chance for people to repent after death before the resurrection, or final judgment.

[SpyridonOCA]

It is not God who eternally punishes, we punish ourselves though our rejection of Him.

[Ioan cel Nou]

It is not God who eternally punishes, we punish ourselves though our rejection of Him.

Exactly. This makes no sense to me at all:

The author says that Western Christianity is wrong in saying that God punishes people and creates a place where they are punished such as hell. However, I don't really see the difference between creating a place for people to be punished, and the fact that being in the presence of God will be punishment in itself. Either way it sounds like God is eternally punishing people.

Marvmax, does this mean that if a person sticks their hand in a fire and gets burnt you'd say that they were being punished by the fire?

James

[marvmax]

Marvmax, does this mean that if a person sticks their hand in a fire and gets burnt you'd say that they were being punished by the fire?

James
No I wouldn't, but I don't think that is the same comparison. From what I understand from that article, which I'm sure is not the whole story, we are brought into the presence of God and some will enjoy it and some will hate it, but it wont stop either way. This doesn't seem to be any different, in effect, from the Western concept of being sent away to a place to be punished. In both cases the sinners are suffering eternally.

In your comparison with putting my hand in the fire, the fire isn't punishing me, but I can walk away and stop the pain. It doesn't sound like that is possible to walk away from God in the after life, at least from the article.

BTW: I'm not trying to debate but the question was asked. Is it OK to answer questions when they are posed? Also, I agree with the concept of God's overwhelming Love being extremely uncomfortable for some when we are brought into the presence of the Lord.