Is God a god Who doesn't love?

[JustinHesychast]

The Orthodox afterlife pulled me back into Christianity. I always thought that after you died, even though it may be extremely difficult, you could always choose and repent "later" (to use a term of time in talking about a timeless existence). But then I read on GoArch that after the 2nd Judgment, it's final. No more chances. No more opportunities to repent. To me, this seems like a God of unlove, Who gets His jollies from throwing people into hellfire for all eternity without a chance for repentance and to love God (which is the same God I seen with Protestantism, except it was immediately upon death).

Someone please correct and explain this to me; I surely have things wrong.

[tekiahteruah]

Justin, all I will say is that I have read Orthodox theologians in the past say that there is a possibility that all will be saved, and that this is all above our understanding. Remember that God is not primarily the God of systematic theology but the God of Golgotha, who hung on the cross in a state of shame and abandonment out of love. Forget catechisms. That's God's love. Talk to Jesus about it, ask him about his love. Don't ask people on the internet.

[Philothei]

You read the GOA site but there is more to judgment than what you quote here. Judgment is ultimately God's and God's alone. yes, there is a partial judgment and a final withe the coming of Christ. God is loving and forgiving for those who truly repent and follow his comandments. He is not an unjust or un loving God rather He is a merciful God and He cares about you and your salvation. It is us who abandon him and we do not love Him .... when we sin we do leave Him for the pursuit of our lustful ways... how is God our problem? How is God at fault for our shortcomings and ego trips? God is loving and at times it might seems unfair since we live in a fallen state that God is creating disasters to happen but in reality he "allows" them to happen since we introduce them and deliver them upon ourselves.... ie. like overeating is a bad thing is it God who makes us overeast? NO, it is our weakness that does it....

God bless,
Philothei

[Komnenos]

You read the GOA site but there is more to judgment than what you quote here. Judgment is ultimately God's and God's alone. yes, there is a partial judgment and a final withe the coming of Christ. God is loving and forgiving for those who truly repent and follow his comandments. He is not an unjust or un loving God rather He is a merciful God and He cares about you and your salvation. It is us who abandon him and we do not love Him .... when we sin we do leave Him for the pursuit of our lustful ways... how is God our problem? How is God at fault for our shortcomings and ego trips? God is loving and at times it might seems unfair since we live in a fallen state that God is creating disasters to happen but in reality he "allows" them to happen since we introduce them and deliver them upon ourselves.... ie. like overeating is a bad thing is it God who makes us overeast? NO, it is our weakness that does it....

God bless,
Philothei
Nice new outfit Philothei!
:amen: to the post

[Dorothea]

You read the GOA site but there is more to judgment than what you quote here. Judgment is ultimately God's and God's alone. yes, there is a partial judgment and a final withe the coming of Christ. God is loving and forgiving for those who truly repent and follow his comandments. He is not an unjust or un loving God rather He is a merciful God and He cares about you and your salvation. It is us who abandon him and we do not love Him .... when we sin we do leave Him for the pursuit of our lustful ways... how is God our problem? How is God at fault for our shortcomings and ego trips? God is loving and at times it might seems unfair since we live in a fallen state that God is creating disasters to happen but in reality he "allows" them to happen since we introduce them and deliver them upon ourselves.... ie. like overeating is a bad thing is it God who makes us overeast? NO, it is our weakness that does it....

God bless,
Philothei
Spot on. :thumbsup:

[JustinHesychast]

You read the GOA site but there is more to judgment than what you quote here. Judgment is ultimately God's and God's alone. yes, there is a partial judgment and a final withe the coming of Christ. God is loving and forgiving for those who truly repent and follow his comandments. He is not an unjust or un loving God rather He is a merciful God and He cares about you and your salvation. It is us who abandon him and we do not love Him .... when we sin we do leave Him for the pursuit of our lustful ways... how is God our problem? How is God at fault for our shortcomings and ego trips? God is loving and at times it might seems unfair since we live in a fallen state that God is creating disasters to happen but in reality he "allows" them to happen since we introduce them and deliver them upon ourselves.... ie. like overeating is a bad thing is it God who makes us overeast? NO, it is our weakness that does it....

God bless,
Philothei

That's not what I am getting at. I know this stuff. It's a matter of choice. I always thought that the "real God" (which I "discovered in Orthodoxy") would always allow us to repent, no matter what. I had thought that nothing was "final" and repentance and acceptance of God was always a possibility. But then I read on GOA that this was the case, but then after the Second Judgment that's it. And that is what I am getting at. The ever-present choice to repent and love God.

[Philothei]

yes that it for those who are unrepented... not for those who repent.... It means for those who "choose" not to be with God. There are people out there who do not want to be saved who do not want to repent .... who want to be away from God and those are the ones who condemn their own salvation not God .... For those who seek salvation I do not think God will deny it based on their true rependance. There are some saints who repented upon their death bed. But i will not be Orignist telling you that all will be saved since I do not know about that all I know is that all of us who are seeking repentnance are and will be saved. Why is it so "unfair" to you? Instead of calling God an uloving judge I think we should be praying for all people's salvation without judging who is who is not be saved.... cause again we do not know.... The Lord says those who are last will be first and the first will be last....

As for the ever present choice.... we live in our time and that gives us the limitation of time. We do have time to repent in this life and attain partial judgment but we will be judged again in the final. In my understanding final judgment is not a "punishment" of God rather a self condemnation of a person who is unrepentant like satan himself. There has been much speculation about his salvation. Is he going to be saved? We cannot possibly know what he will do because satan due to his falling away from God he made a choice to alianate himself from all goodness and since then he has been dealing only in darkness and he is "satuated" by his evil ways... so most fathers speculate that he will not be saved.
That is the reason for rejecting Originenism too.


How can his decision be blamed on God? Is God unmerciful for respecting his decision .... One thing that God cannot do is to force us His will. We are born with free will.

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

thank you Komnene:wave:

for your comments too I do not want it to go into my head I try to keep my head on the ground :eek: :bow: here...hhehehe i ain't no saint you know....:holy:

I can only say I love this subject and studied it more than others the area of Theodicy, suffering and the reality of sin in dogmatics. Also I got my money's worth paying that student loan....
You yourselves are great all of you.
Thank you guys again,:crosseo:
Philothei

[SeraphimSarov]

EDITED

I have no idea if my previous answer was right, but I know this is true: http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40022299&postcount=13

[Philothei]

The reason we are offering prayers at memorial services is for that very reason that we try to intecede to God for the person that passed away just in case he did not repent all of his sins so that may God will look favorably upon him and forgive him/her. We do not know the end result it is up to God whether or not he/she will be forgiven and if she/he has repented not us. God listens to our prayers we believe that because of his lovig kindness he forgives them, we pray with this hope of the ressurection of all those brothers and sisters who die before us. Without wantig to go into the toll "cookies" contraversy... i will say only this... that most of the fathers believe the Glory to Glory theory that souls who are in paradise already progress in their attaining theosis. St. Gregory the New Theologian mentions about the progression of the spiritual world... he does not mention toll houses but that there is still a progress to a higher sphere of theosis after death.
God bless,
Philothei

[AJB4]

'Tis true. The "better" idea of salvation in Orthodoxy was/is a big draw-card. I mean, growing up in the CoC, all those who weren't a part of that very minor group would go to hell with no chance of repentance in the next life. I'm sure the Orthodox church has a different view than this. :|

[Monica, child of God]

Justin you've already gotten great responses but I just want to add my meager thoughts. God's love is infinite. If there is a point when repentance is not possible, it is not because God has stopped loving us. Have you ever known someone who has spent most of their lives devoted to sin and self? There are some who truly come to repent even after a life of hard living. But for others hard living leads to hard heartedness. Perhaps if they had sought forgivness 20 years earlier they could have been converted but now the light has dimmed and the image of God is only a shell. Has God stopped loving the person. Not at all.

Mother Raphaela uses an analogy of fish who go blind because they swim in water so deep they don't see any light year after year. If they were to go toward the surface, they wouldn't recognize light if they tried. Like it or not there is a point of no return. If it happens in this life, then surely it can happen in the next.

M.

[buzuxi02]

The Orthodox afterlife pulled me back into Christianity. I always thought that after you died, even though it may be extremely difficult, you could always choose and repent "later" (to use a term of time in talking about a timeless existence). But then I read on GoArch that after the 2nd Judgment, it's final. No more chances. No more opportunities to repent. To me, this seems like a God of unlove, Who gets His jollies from throwing people into hellfire for all eternity without a chance for repentance and to love God (which is the same God I seen with Protestantism, except it was immediately upon death).

Someone please correct and explain this to me; I surely have things wrong.
The second judgement is when Christ comes back for the second time, the Parousia. As the Creed teaches: And He will come again in glory to judge both the living and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end".

When you die you go thru partial judgment, and prayers of the Church "may" help your situation. But its not a given, theres no repentance aside from your body, thattakes place in this Life.