Parish Council Voting

[paleodoxy]

Something I have been pondering. At the risk of sounding misogynistic or sexist to some (I hope that is not the message you receive), I am somewhat uncomfortable with the "democratic" voting practices at parish council meetings - and this is the practice (seemingly) of most ecclesiastical traditions today.

What is and when was the origin and historic rationale for this? I want to know when this principle changed, and what valid justification can be made for it. I am trying to suspend my judgment until I collect all data and fully understand it, but it makes more sense to me (so far) that there should be one household vote (i.e., one vote per household tithe).

It's not that I am opposed to all women voting. I'm not. But I would be more comfortable with the practice of female heads of households voting on behalf of their family: widows (such as Lydia) for example.

Another problem I see with the democratic model is that there is a lot of confusion over when an adult still living at home can vote. We often follow the secular practice using the age 18 as the "magical" age when children can vote for themselves. In Scripture, though, I noticed that males became eligible to vote (and engage in military service) at the age of 20. No age is given for females, and I wonder if the rationale for this (in part) has to do with the nature of marriage and headship within a family.

In other words, a young woman cannot vote as long as she is under the covenantal headship of a man. This mans that a daughter should not vote as long as she is still under the headship of her father. When her father (with his blessing) transfers that authority to another man (her husband), that man becomes responsible for voting and representing the will of the family in the parish community. If she were to become a widow, and thus head of her own household, she could vote (one vote per household/tithe).

Any thoughts on this? I'm just trying to decide how we should do things after our chrismation date.

[Matrona]

The way I see this handled is that a family member of a parish council member cannot be nominated or elected to the council. Whomever is on the council decides the vote for that household's tithe, whether the council member is the husband or the wife. Why on earth should it have anything to do with gender?

[gorion]

I'm having trouble following. Are you talking about council meetings or parish meetings? We have over 100 families in our parish and 8 council members. We do not have the head of every household on the council.

Are you saying only heads of households should vote at Parish meetings?

If so, Why is this important to you?

[Philothei]

Paleo, the whole thing about parish councils in this land are twisted.... I know I will get stoned but .... I will risk it.

Firstly the president of the community should be the priest like in other Orthodox parishes in Orthodox lands.... Second there should be no voting system but the priest should chose his members and they should be approved by the bishop IMO. The RC here in US kept that way of parish goverment, and i personally agree. The "reforms" of such practice came from our leaders of the Church in the US (talking about GOA) and I personally think it creates more problems than solves it.

About ladies being involved instead of "elders" men that is another aspect that I personally cannot understand what good would that really do? Eliminate all ladies who offer all this work in the kitchen for the Greek festival... is not going to work also eliminating all these bright young ladies that we are "begging" them to get involved in the church and learn about their faith.... I think of it more of a stumbling stone than a plus. i believe that getting involved with Ecclesia administration belongs to young and old there has to be a balance a mix ... so that the old can learn from the young and the young from the old. Also men can learn the women's perspective and vice versa. Most of the times for practicallity sake you need to have a few mothers and grandmothers to speak out when it comes to practical issues. Both sexes bring in different perspectives since they hold different roles. Young and old women are the mothers and sisters of our saints in times passed... if it was good enough for those women to be there at the time of Christ's ressurection and were the first to Evangalize the Good news... they defenately have a place in any parish council in 2007... I do not mean to sound too harsh but this is my opinion.

Now if you are refering to the humility that women should exhibit in their calling to serve that is another issue that we should blame it on modern society and the feminist movement....not on the equality of the sexes as practiced and expressed in our Church.

God bless,
Philothei

[Oblio]

The UPB (Uniform Parish Bylaws) for your Diocese (along with any ratified additions/ammendments) should answer your questions. Any deviation from them would need a blessing from your Bishop.

[Greg the byzantine]

Paleo, the whole thing about parish councils in this land are twisted.... I know I wihttp://foru.ms/u98458ll get stoned but .... I will risk it.

Firstly the president of the community should be the priest like in other Orthodox parishes in Orthodox lands.... Second there should be no voting system but the priest should chose his members and they should be approved by the bishop IMO. The RC here in US kept that way of parish goverment, and i personally agree. The "reforms" of such practice came from our leaders of the Church in the US (talking about GOA) and I personally think it creates more problems than solves it.

About ladies being involved instead of "elders" men that is another aspect that I personally cannot understand what good would that really do? Eliminate all ladies who offer all this work in the kitchen for the Greek festival... is not going to work also eliminating all these bright young ladies that we are "begging" them to get involved in the church and learn about their faith.... I think of it more of a stumbling stone than a plus. i believe that getting involved with Ecclesia administration belongs to young and old there has to be a balance a mix ... so that the old can learn from the young and the young from the old. Also men can learn the women's perspective and vice versa. Most of the times for practicallity sake you need to have a few mothers and grandmothers to speak out when it comes to practical issues. Both sexes bring in different perspectives since they hold different roles. Young and old women are the mothers and sisters of our saints in times passed... if it was good enough for those women to be there at the time of Christ's ressurection and were the first to Evangalize the Good news... they defenately have a place in any parish council in 2007... I do not mean to sound too harsh but this is my opinion.

Now if you are refering to the humility that women should exhibit in their calling to serve that is another issue that we should blame it on modern society and the feminist movement....not on the equality of the sexes as practiced and expressed in our Church.

God bless,
Philothei

I think you hit on the most important problems with the parish councils in this country.

They've turned the church into a political arena, where people compete to get voted into the parish council. People form cliques and set out to destroy one another.

We had a woman parish council president. She was a beautiful person, and she always set out to help the community. But a group of old mysogynist men weren't happy with a woman in a leadership position. So they set out to ruin her life. They sent her nasty letters, They took the churches mailing list and sent harmful letters to the community with ugly gossip about this woman (things which weren't true). It ended with a physical altercation between one of the members of this clique and the woman's son on the steps of the church during a liturgy, after which she stepped down because they were ruining her life.

This new group which has been elected into council worked dilligently to have the priest removed. They succeded in having our priest moved to another parish, and the priest from the other parish was moved here.

During this whole upheaval in the parish council, people stopped coming to our church. We lost membership but what's worse is we lost some of our most beloved indiviudulas including the Sunday School Director, and the School Board presidnet (Since then Sunday School has gone downhill, as have other organizations). Now we just have a bunch of stuffy old greek men in power.

[Matrona]

Now we just have a bunch of stuffy old greek men in power.

Sounds like it's time to stage a coup. Seriously. :mad:

[Philothei]

I think you hit on the most important problems with the parish councils in this country.

They've turned the church into a political arena, where people compete to get voted into the parish council. People form cliques and set out to destroy one another.

We had a woman parish council president. She was a beautiful person, and she always set out to help the community. But a group of old mysogynist men weren't happy with a woman in a leadership position. So they set out to ruin her life. They sent her nasty letters, They took the churches mailing list and sent harmful letters to the community with ugly gossip about this woman (things which weren't true). It ended with a physical altercation between one of the members of this clique and the woman's son on the steps of the church during a liturgy, after which she stepped down because they were ruining her life.

This new group which has been elected into council worked dilligently to have the priest removed. They succeded in having our priest moved to another parish, and the priest from the other parish was moved here.

During this whole upheaval in the parish council, people stopped coming to our church. We lost membership but what's worse is we lost some of our most beloved indiviudulas including the Sunday School Director, and the School Board presidnet (Since then Sunday School has gone downhill, as have other organizations). Now we just have a bunch of stuffy old greek men in power.
And this "movie" is playing in many GOA parishes and may others denominations everywhere....

that starts with the idea that religion is a "hobby" to people and not a sacred reality of one's salvation.
Addition: also that everyone there knows the best way to do things except the priest everyone is a theologian wannabe and they always want to enforce their own agenda with no idea or vision on humility or love .....

They are there to manipulate... to pass their time and to be entatertained.... the priests are mere employees and the parish council the employer. This is how sick our church parish councils have become... and we are wondering about the role of women in the church.... kind of silly I think.... Stories like this make me too sick...and mad.

Lord have mercy on our church.

Philothei

[Eusebios]

An interesting read on this subject is Fr. Alexander Schmemman's article entitled "The Secularistic Reduction of the Parish" (http://www.jacwell.org/Fall_Winter99/Fr_Schmemann_The%20_spiritual_problem.htm#TheSecularisticReductionoftheParish) His ideas are pretty straight forward and I agree with him to a large extent. You might also be interested in viewing a recent blog entry from Fr. Gregory Jensen (http://palamas.blogspot.com/2007/10/moving-from-source-source-model-of.html) who finds himself assigned to try to help our parish find it's bearings after losing the second priest in the last 5 years, the latest as a direct result of a coup by certain current and former parish council members.
Peace,
Don

[choirfiend]

In other words, a young woman cannot vote as long as she is under the covenantal headship of a man. This mans that a daughter should not vote as long as she is still under the headship of her father. When her father (with his blessing) transfers that authority to another man (her husband), that man becomes responsible for voting and representing the will of the family in the parish community. If she were to become a widow, and thus head of her own household, she could vote (one vote per household/tithe).

Any thoughts on this? I'm just trying to decide how we should do things after our chrismation date.

We dont have a covenantal headship of a man. No father transfers the control of his daughter to another man in marriage. That position of women and the legal aspect of it comes from the Western tradition. The evidence of what I am saying comes from many places, but one place where it can be seen clearly is in the marriage ceremony. In the West, the woman is "given away" by her father to her husband. In the East, the man and woman meet and enter the church together, equally crowned as rulers of their home. The headship that IS spoken of is a spiritual headship--and that has NOTHING to do with parish councils and voting.

[paleodoxy]

We dont have a covenantal headship of a man. No father transfers the control of his daughter to another man in marriage. That position of women and the legal aspect of it comes from the Western tradition.

I don't think it's so much Western as Hebraic. See Numbers 30:1-16:

[1]And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This [is] the thing which the LORD hath commanded.

[2]If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

[3]If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, in her father's house in her youth;

[[B]4]And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand.

[5]But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the LORD shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her.

[6]And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul;

[7]And her husband heard [it,] and held his peace at her in the day that he heard [it]: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.

[8]But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard [it]; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.

[9]But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.

[10]And if she vowed in her husband's house, or bound her soul by a bond with an oath;
[11]And her husband heard [it], and held his peace at her, [and] disallowed her not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.

[12]But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard [them; then] whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the LORD shall forgive her.

[13]Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.

[14]But if her husband altogether hold his peace at her from day to day; then he establisheth all her vows, or all her bonds, which [are] upon her: he confirmeth them, because he held his peace at her in the day that he heard [them].

[15]But if he shall any ways make them void after that he hath heard [them]; then he shall bear her iniquity.

[16]These [are] the statutes, which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, between the father and his daughter, [being yet] in her youth in her father's house.

[Philothei]

Let us examine some of the verses in Ephesians that can potentially upset some couples seeking to marry in the Orthodox Church. Is it possible to reinterpret these verses to meet there needs? Can these verses make a difference in the lives of those couples choosing to wed in the Orthodox Church? What is it that the Church is trying to teach couples when reading Ephesians 5:20-33?
These are some of the questions that this short article will attempt to address. My hope is that the information that follows will compel the reader to search for a deeper understanding of gender relations from an Orthodox perspective. It is this writer’s opinion that the wisdom contained in Ephesians can positively impact marital and family satisfaction.

Orthodox theology asserts that men and women are equal. One Orthodox theologian states, marriage “is patterned after the divine life of the Holy Trinity. According to traditional Orthodox belief the Godhead is a Trinity of consubstantial, coequal, and coeternal persons in perfect unity” (Calivas, 1997, p. 53). However, the Church does not base its understanding of gender relations on equality, nor does it necessarily encourage its faithful to cultivate egalitarian marriages.

Orthodox spousal interactions and transactions are based on an Orthodox understanding of marriage. The Church calls spouses to embrace a Christ centered perspective of marriage. Specifically, two other theologians have stated, “Everything in marriage… is to be done in Christ. With the purpose of bringing the couple closer to Christ and each other in truly Christian love” (Ford & Ford, 1994, p.xxxi).

Orthodox spousal relations are influenced by Christ-centered divine wisdom like that which is contained in Mark 12:31 and John 15:12.

In Mark’s Gospel (12:31) Christ teaches, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” This verse provides a fundamental basis for Christians’ interpersonal interactions with others. It teaches that a Christian’s transactions and interactions with others should be predicated on a concern for one’s neighbor’s needs, as well as one’s own personal needs. This verse also indirectly teaches that manipulation, control and exploitation are unacceptable.

An equally relevant verse is found in John’s Gospel (15:12). A few days before Jesus would submit to crucifixion, he would gather his disciples and offer them the following counsel. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you” (JN 15:12). This verse provides a fundamental basis for interpersonal relations between Christians. It reminds Christians that their interactions with other Christians should not only be guided by the wisdom contained in MK 21:31, but also by a higher spiritual principle. This verse calls a Christian’s attention to Jesus Christ’s selfless sacrifice, and reminds Christians that their interactions and transactions with other Christians should be based on their Savior’s loving, self-sacrificial example.

Power and control become less relevant to a discussion of gender relations and marital satisfaction and stability, as do justice and equality. Issues such as equal rights take a back seat in spouses’ efforts to respond to one another. Concerns with individual needs are also given less importance when compared to one’s partner’s needs, the marriage’s needs and their family’s needs.

Spouses seeking to live an Orthodox marriage are called to consider their partner’s needs along with their own needs. In many instances, they are even called to ignore their own needs in an effort to meet their partner’s needs. For example, this wisdom is clearly illustrated when St. Paul addresses himself to an issue related to marital sexual relations. “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does” (Cor. 7:3-5).

Orthodox spouses are called to serve and love one another with the kind of self-sacrificial love that Christ personifies on the Cross. This kind of love is not power-centered or self-centered, but other-centered. It compels spouses to empty themselves of their pride and arrogance, as Christ did when he “emptied himself… [and] humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a Cross” (Phil. 2:7-8). So it is that St. John Chrysostom’s writings offer numerous admonitions to husbands and wives such as the following. “A wife should respect her husband even if he shows her no love, and a husband should love his wife even when she shows him no respect.”

When husbands are called to be “the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church” (Eph. 5:23), this does not presuppose they are being given license to manipulate and exploit their partners. Writing about the nature and type of leadership that husbands should provide, St. John Chrysostom points out that Christ did not use “threats, or violence, or terror or anything else like that” to lead the Church. Husbands are thus called to model themselves after Christ’s selfless example when they lead. They are called to emulate Christ who taught, “For the Son of man… came not to be served but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many” (Mk. 10:45). Advising husbands regarding this matter, St. John Chrysostom offers the following additional counsel, “…even if it becomes necessary for you to give your life for [your wife], yes, and even to endure and undergo suffering of any kind, do not refuse.”

Conversely, when wives are asked to submit themselves to their husbands, they are not being asked to assume a subservient position. Nor are they being asked to tolerate abuse and exploitation. They are being asked to submit themselves to their husbands out of their love and “reverence for Christ” (Eph. 5:21). Quoting from St. John Chrsostom, “When you yield to your husband, consider that you are obeying him as part of your service to the Lord.”
Some Final Thoughts

As feminist thinking has taken root in our society, there is no doubt that many marriages are more egalitarian and women have more choices. These are positive results that should not be minimized. Nonetheless, as valuable an impact as feminist theory has had on the lives of individuals, couples and families, marriages that are highly influenced by feminist thinking appear to me to be incomplete. Just as marriages that are highly androcentric are also incomplete. This is because feminist philosophy focuses spouses’ attention on justice and equality, and tends to undervalue or even ignore a love of neighbor, selfless love, mercy, forgiveness and self-sacrifice.
I believe that marriages today could profit from a deeper understanding of what the Orthodox Church has taught us about gender relations in marriage. Christ-like self-sacrificial love can go a long way in defusing conflict and enhancing marital and family satisfaction. Moreover, research comparing religious marriages with non-religious marriages would support this last point. Researchers studying successful marriages indicate that religious couples are happier and are less inclined to divorce (Hansen, 1992; Robinson, 1994).
In a divorce prone culture like our own, I believe that it is important to counterbalance what society is teaching us about gender relations in marriage with what Christ teaches. Striking this prayerful balance can prove very useful in spouses’ efforts to meet individual, marital and family needs. Seeking to discern the not-so-obvious value behind Ephesians 5:20-33, can positively impact individual, couple and family well-being.
References
Calivas, A. C. (1997). Marriage: The sacrament of love and communion. In A. C. Vrame (Ed.), Interfaith marriage: Orthodox perspectives. Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press.
Ford, D. & Ford, M. (1994). Marriage as a path to holiness. South Canaan, PA: St. Tikhon’s Seminary Press.
Hansen, G.L. (1992). Religion and marital adjustment. In J. F. Schumaker (Ed.), Religion and mental health (pp. 189-198). New York: Oxford University Press.
Knudson-Martin, C. (2002). Feminism in MFT: Where has it led us? Family Therapy Magazine. pp. 28-31.
Robinson, L. C. (1994). Religious orientation in enduring marriage: An exploration study. Review of Religious Research. 35, 207-218.
Withers Osmond, M., & Thorne, B. (1993). Feminist theories: The social construction of gender in families. In P. G. Boss, W. J. Doherty, R. LaRossa, W. R. Schumm, S. K. Steinmetz (Eds.), Sourcebook of family theories and methods: A contextual approach. New York, NY: Plenum Press


For full article look into this link....


http://www.interfaith.goarch.org/genderrelations.asp

Again you are bringing on the OT law to the Christian model of covenant. We live by the new covenant of Christ.
By the way the family relations are modeled after the holy Trinity since you have read Zizioulas you should have come across it.

the euallity of the Trinity is applied to the Christian family esp. when the members are adults... the adult daughters you mentioned....

God bless,
Philothei

[paleodoxy]

Let us examine some of the verses in Ephesians that can potentially upset some couples seeking to marry in the Orthodox Church. Is it possible to reinterpret these verses to meet there needs? Can these verses make a difference in the lives of those couples choosing to wed in the Orthodox Church? What is it that the Church is trying to teach couples when reading Ephesians 5:20-33?
These are some of the questions that this short article will attempt to address. My hope is that the information that follows will compel the reader to search for a deeper understanding of gender relations from an Orthodox perspective. It is this writer’s opinion that the wisdom contained in Ephesians can positively impact marital and family satisfaction.
Orthodox theology asserts that men and women are equal. One Orthodox theologian states, marriage “is patterned after the divine life of the Holy Trinity. According to traditional Orthodox belief the Godhead is a Trinity of consubstantial, coequal, and coeternal persons in perfect unity” (Calivas, 1997, p. 53). However, the Church does not base its understanding of gender relations on equality, nor does it necessarily encourage its faithful to cultivate egalitarian marriages.

Orthodox spousal interactions and transactions are based on an Orthodox understanding of marriage. The Church calls spouses to embrace a Christ centered perspective of marriage. Specifically, two other theologians have stated, “Everything in marriage… is to be done in Christ. With the purpose of bringing the couple closer to Christ and each other in truly Christian love” (Ford & Ford, 1994, p.xxxi).

Orthodox spousal relations are influenced by Christ-centered divine wisdom like that which is contained in Mark 12:31 and John 15:12.

In Mark’s Gospel (12:31) Christ teaches, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” This verse provides a fundamental basis for Christians’ interpersonal interactions with others. It teaches that a Christian’s transactions and interactions with others should be predicated on a concern for one’s neighbor’s needs, as well as one’s own personal needs. This verse also indirectly teaches that manipulation, control and exploitation are unacceptable.

An equally relevant verse is found in John’s Gospel (15:12). A few days before Jesus would submit to crucifixion, he would gather his disciples and offer them the following counsel. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you” (JN 15:12). This verse provides a fundamental basis for interpersonal relations between Christians. It reminds Christians that their interactions with other Christians should not only be guided by the wisdom contained in MK 21:31, but also by a higher spiritual principle. This verse calls a Christian’s attention to Jesus Christ’s selfless sacrifice, and reminds Christians that their interactions and transactions with other Christians should be based on their Savior’s loving, self-sacrificial example.

Power and control become less relevant to a discussion of gender relations and marital satisfaction and stability, as do justice and equality. Issues such as equal rights take a back seat in spouses’ efforts to respond to one another. Concerns with individual needs are also given less importance when compared to one’s partner’s needs, the marriage’s needs and their family’s needs.

Spouses seeking to live an Orthodox marriage are called to consider their partner’s needs along with their own needs. In many instances, they are even called to ignore their own needs in an effort to meet their partner’s needs. For example, this wisdom is clearly illustrated when St. Paul addresses himself to an issue related to marital sexual relations. “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does” (Cor. 7:3-5).

Orthodox spouses are called to serve and love one another with the kind of self-sacrificial love that Christ personifies on the Cross. This kind of love is not power-centered or self-centered, but other-centered. It compels spouses to empty themselves of their pride and arrogance, as Christ did when he “emptied himself… [and] humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a Cross” (Phil. 2:7-8). So it is that St. John Chrysostom’s writings offer numerous admonitions to husbands and wives such as the following. “A wife should respect her husband even if he shows her no love, and a husband should love his wife even when she shows him no respect.”

When husbands are called to be “the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church” (Eph. 5:23), this does not presuppose they are being given license to manipulate and exploit their partners. Writing about the nature and type of leadership that husbands should provide, St. John Chrysostom points out that Christ did not use “threats, or violence, or terror or anything else like that” to lead the Church. Husbands are thus called to model themselves after Christ’s selfless example when they lead. They are called to emulate Christ who taught, “For the Son of man… came not to be served but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many” (Mk. 10:45). Advising husbands regarding this matter, St. John Chrysostom offers the following additional counsel, “…even if it becomes necessary for you to give your life for [your wife], yes, and even to endure and undergo suffering of any kind, do not refuse.”

Conversely, when wives are asked to submit themselves to their husbands, they are not being asked to assume a subservient position. Nor are they being asked to tolerate abuse and exploitation. They are being asked to submit themselves to their husbands out of their love and “reverence for Christ” (Eph. 5:21). Quoting from St. John Chrsostom, “When you yield to your husband, consider that you are obeying him as part of your service to the Lord.”
Some Final Thoughts

As feminist thinking has taken root in our society, there is no doubt that many marriages are more egalitarian and women have more choices. These are positive results that should not be minimized. Nonetheless, as valuable an impact as feminist theory has had on the lives of individuals, couples and families, marriages that are highly influenced by feminist thinking appear to me to be incomplete. Just as marriages that are highly androcentric are also incomplete. This is because feminist philosophy focuses spouses’ attention on justice and equality, and tends to undervalue or even ignore a love of neighbor, selfless love, mercy, forgiveness and self-sacrifice.
I believe that marriages today could profit from a deeper understanding of what the Orthodox Church has taught us about gender relations in marriage. Christ-like self-sacrificial love can go a long way in defusing conflict and enhancing marital and family satisfaction. Moreover, research comparing religious marriages with non-religious marriages would support this last point. Researchers studying successful marriages indicate that religious couples are happier and are less inclined to divorce (Hansen, 1992; Robinson, 1994).
In a divorce prone culture like our own, I believe that it is important to counterbalance what society is teaching us about gender relations in marriage with what Christ teaches. Striking this prayerful balance can prove very useful in spouses’ efforts to meet individual, marital and family needs. Seeking to discern the not-so-obvious value behind Ephesians 5:20-33, can positively impact individual, couple and family well-being.
References
Calivas, A. C. (1997). Marriage: The sacrament of love and communion. In A. C. Vrame (Ed.), Interfaith marriage: Orthodox perspectives. Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press.
Ford, D. & Ford, M. (1994). Marriage as a path to holiness. South Canaan, PA: St. Tikhon’s Seminary Press.
Hansen, G.L. (1992). Religion and marital adjustment. In J. F. Schumaker (Ed.), Religion and mental health (pp. 189-198). New York: Oxford University Press.
Knudson-Martin, C. (2002). Feminism in MFT: Where has it led us? Family Therapy Magazine. pp. 28-31.
Robinson, L. C. (1994). Religious orientation in enduring marriage: An exploration study. Review of Religious Research. 35, 207-218.
Withers Osmond, M., & Thorne, B. (1993). Feminist theories: The social construction of gender in families. In P. G. Boss, W. J. Doherty, R. LaRossa, W. R. Schumm, S. K. Steinmetz (Eds.), Sourcebook of family theories and methods: A contextual approach. New York, NY: Plenum Press


For full article look into this link....


http://www.interfaith.goarch.org/genderrelations.asp

Again you are bringing on the OT law to the Christian model of covenant. We live by the new covenant of Christ.
By the way the family relations are modeled after the holy Trinity since you have read Zizioulas you should have come across it.

the euallity of the Trinity is applied to the Christian family esp. when the members are adults... the adult daughters you mentioned....

God bless,
Philothei



Hi, philothei:

I agreed with everything from the article, and that the earthly marriage is modeled after the Trinity. I'm not sure how this is incompatible with the notion of headship as expressed in Numbers, though. This very headship principle seems to be clearly set forth in the N.T. as well (cf. Eph. / I Cor.,et. al). I used Numbers because it applies this same headship principle to specifics regarding vows, showing that a father could cancel out a vow, if he discovers (say) that his daughter vowed to marry a man he did not approve of.

[Philothei]

Paleo, just ask your priest. We are not keeping the Partiarchal model of the OT. Again you keep going back to it.

The realationship of father and daughter is the same of in the Holy Trinity. A father is not infalable in the family. He has a right to say if he agrees and disargrees but after that he cannot impose his "advice" on his daughter.

I would like to bring to your attention that in Orthodoxy we do have the consent of the woman and man coming forward for marriage. It is a small service that takes place in the beginning of the marriage ceremony (it is defunct now). In that small "exchange of vows" the priest would ask the woman if she is marrying that man because she is forced and vise versa. We truly believe in the freedom of choice of the individuals, that they come forth to get married. In the old days some people used to "steal" girls to marry them so that little vow exchange came from this tradition. Also, somewhere there... at that time in the wedding ceremony it is tradition (with a small t minds you) for the groom to kiss his father in law hand and take the bride then they will walk in with the bride aand the priest leading them into the Church holding the Gospel. The hymn of that entrance into the solea is "It is Trully blessed..." .

It is out of respect that my husband kissed my dad's hand who gave me "away" to my husband... needless to say I was in tears... and very emotional since the two men kissed and all of us were crying....

In our days I do not think there is necessary a need for the "consent" although I do believe that it shows respect and give worth to the role of the fatherhood as the leader of the family.

I do not know if they practice this in the states...

God bless,
Philothei