Just..argh!

[-Kyriaki-]

(Or how do I not butt heads with my skilled debater and theologian of a Dad that I actually happen to really like)

Okay, so most of you know who I am now so I won't go through all that explanation-y stuff.

And this time it's not about me precisely...

I love my Dad to bits. I really do. Of my parents, I really 'click' with him and have spent years discussing theology with him, and he's the reason I'm where I am today actually - after coming with him to a semi-Orthodox mindset (if any of you have read Karl Barth or TF or JB Torrance you'll know what I'm talking about) I said yes but there must be more...and here I am.

Problem is, I've got my Dad sort of living vicariously theologically through me. This is all well and good - I'm happy to talk about this stuff with him, but we've got down to a couple issues that keep getting in the way and we're both irritated at each other over.

I got stuck in the car with him the other day for an hour or so, and he decided to have a discussion with me about closed communion. All well and good...except regardless of a fairly reasonable discussion on both sides we weren't getting anywhere, and then Dad decided to make a point of commenting on how some people we sort of know, who go to church about once in a blue moon, could take communion since they were Orthodox but that when I'm baptised I'll be able to take communion and he won't. My response to that was basically that that's the situation I'm in at the moment and I'm going to have to keep attending church every week for somewhere possibly up to the next year in exactly that situation, whereas he doesn't seem to really want to be there. Generally emotional lines are not useful in discussions anyway, but this one's been really eating at me - and it happened a month or so ago. Problem is, I'm now somewhat defensive and not wanting to get into these discussions at the moment due to this, but I'm getting into trouble for that too.

The other one is that apparently I'm not being critical enough of Orthodoxy so I'm in trouble for that, too. My philosophy has always been that I'll praise and critique anything I've got a reasonable amount of knowledge on, but my Dad seems to think that I should be criticising Orthodoxy now... My problem is that I have no idea of what I'd be criticising! There's so much to learn and I've been a catechumen for like, three months. Not exactly a fair amount of time to be criticising anything - I kept my mouth shut about the issues I had with the school of theology I've come out of for a long time before I ever raised them, and then subsequently did something about them.

So now I'm in trouble because I'm defensive and because I do things like answer what I can, then give him books instead of trying to answer further than I can actually know. I love my Dad, but this is driving me nuts - we can't go anywhere near discussing theology (which is the most common topic of conversation in our house - in the car, at the dinner table, at the breakfast table, wherever) without both of us wanting to wring each others necks somewhat.

So...what on earth do I do? If you think I'm in the wrong here please tell me, because I'd really like to do anything to fix this that I can. Dad's having a great time discussing Orthodoxy and getting everyone in his circle of theologian friends addicted to Metropolitan Kallistos' books (and please no derailing this thread into the argument over him, we've had that one enough times) which is all well and good but it's not exactly fair on me to make me the person he's arguing this stuff out with. I know he wants me questioning stuff so I don't just swallow everything I'm given, but I really haven't found anything to disagree with yet...and I'm usually pretty good about disagreeing with things.

:help:

[Thekla]

I can relate to this :)

My dad is a minister with three graduate degrees (and a lovely faith in Christ). I experienced something of the same, though on different particular issues.

First, increase your prayers for him a bit. Perhaps your SF could also offer advice. There is so much to learn, and this can be hard to convey to someone else (but to quote an old adage, the fastest way to learn is to move slowly).

In my bookstore job, I stock some books for more "serious" readers. In this last category are those who require a challenging read in order to get their brain to be occupied and "shut up" a bit (so that when quieter, they can read the Saints lives ;)). In this category I would recommend two books that are excellent in their own right: Hymn of Entry, Archimandrite Vasileios and Being As Communion, John D. Zizioulas - sorry, underline thing won't work).

Perhaps you could point out that you are exploring different questions presently, and will get to your dad's when they organically occur to you. Frankly, despite being "investigative" in my reading normally, I couldn't find anything that I felt I needed to question in Orthodoxy.

Oh, and Orthodox Theology by Meyendorff

Best,
Thekla

[-Kyriaki-]

Thankyou so much Thekla :hug:

I've been trying to explain but I keep getting accused of being defensive again - ack.

I will ask Father for advice again - I mentioned it a while ago but I think we need to sit down and really talk about it because it's starting to become too big of an issue.

And books :D Thankyou, really anything I can give my Dad is wonderful. He's more than halfway through Metropolitan Kallistos' "The Orthodox Church" and is devouring "The Orthodox Way" (both of which he stole off of me). It'll be good to give him something to read - usually it gets him off my case somewhat.

Thankyou so much.

[MariaRegina]

Maybe you could invite your priest over to dinner with your family.

I am sure he knows how to handle himself.

[Hoankan]

I think Aria's idea would be good. Take some of the pressure off of you.

[-Kyriaki-]

I would love for him to come meet my family, and my Dad actually offered when he and Jeremy dropped me off home after something a few weeks back. Maybe I should ask again.

Thanks for the suggestion...anything to take the pressure off of me would be appreciated!

[flod logic]

It's not exactly the same, but I'm in a similar situation, so I know how you feel. My parents don't know that much about Orthodoxy (although they've read bits and pieces of "Becoming Orthodox" and "Light from the Christian East"), but for some reason they keep bringing up theological points that I just don't know enough about to defend yet. It's kind of frustrating.

[Philothei]

Why don't you have your dad meet with the priest sometime... even come with you for a Liturgy. maybe that way he can experience it for himself. Hands on is always a better way.

I have a "doubting Thomas" father too, despite he is Orthodox.. he can be very challenging at times. His "theory" on God can become too docitist at times...etc.

He believes in Christ and all just sometimes he doubts the aurhority fo the Church he goes on and on about organized religion etc... Trying to correct him has been a constant war fare at times and my poor mom she always tries to get him to go to church, it is a battle. In Greece you see more women at church than men....

I just give him books to read. When I studied theology he used to tell me that now I am a "brainwashed" one sided peson with a narrow world view!!! I used to get angry and just get up and leave but slowly I learned that it is better to ignore it and go on. Pray for him Kyrie and be happy he accepts to read some of the books you suggest take advantage of it. i think also teaching him by your devotion to the church wil make a bigger impact on him. I know that being a constistant example to those around us gives us the most credibilty of all. Actions speak louder than words at any rate..Also keep in mind that .... as they get older they get more stubborn.... unfortunately.
God bless,
philothei

[-Kyriaki-]

I keep trying to get him to come with me, but he's sure that he's 'not ready' at this point...I guess I'll leave him be. Father coming for dinner is probably our best bet.

Anyone know of a 'prayer for a stubborn father'? ;)

[Hoankan]

Anyone know of a 'prayer for a stubborn father'? ;)

I remember the talk from My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

'Remember, the man is the head of the house. And that makes woman the neck. And that means she can turn him anyway she wants.'

[Philothei]

I remember the talk from My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

'Remember, the man is the head of the house. And that makes woman the neck. And that means she can turn him anyway she wants.'
lol.... yeah I remember... that is about how my mom gets around him.. too...lol... I also love the scene at the restaurant when the "mom" tries to make it look like "dad" had the idea.....that conversation with Thea is hilarious....
Philothei

[Hoankan]

oh yeah. that was a great scene. definetely reminds me of my Aunt Janet and Uncle Vern

[Philothei]

Prayer for Parents



O merciful Lord God, Thou hast commanded and enjoined me to honor my father and mother, and Thou Thyself hast shown even until death humble obedience to Thy Father. From the depth of my soul I fervently beseech Thee, O gracious Jesus Christ, my God, hear my prayer and have mercy upon my parents, who have given birth to me and are bringing me up in Thy grace and love. Protect them from all evil, harm and sickness; grant them health, and mercifully pour forth Thy bountiful blessings upon them. Bless their efforts and deeds; have mercy on them according to Thy great mercy, that faithfully serving Thee, through them I also may be worthy to praise and serve Thee. Amen. Our Father, Who art in heaven, bless my father and mother, my guardians, and those who are in authority over me, for their love and tender care for me, and the benefits I receive at their hands. Help me, I pray Thee, to be respectful and obedient to them in all matters according to Thy will; and give me Thy grace to perform all my duties carefully and faithfully, to avoid undesirable company and influence, and resist all temptation that may come my way; that I may live a sober, righteous and godly life, ever praising Thee and glorifying Thy Holy Name. Amen.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/prayers.html