Questions about Vespers

[Tonks]

Hello all...I have a few quesitons about Vespers.

I went to Vespers tonight for the first time. Unfortunately it was the bookend to the yearly Russian Bazaar so the English was cancelled and only the Slavonic Vespers was held (they do both every weekend). I was surpised at the 2.5 hour length.

So, beyond the fact that I could barely understand what was going on...I did come away with a few questions.

As an aside...I did get a few strange looks as I was standing in the narthex and clearly had little idea of what was going on...I was standing in the way a few times when the temple was being censed...lol. Guess they don't get too many inquirers.

At any rate:

What is the theology behind all of the candles that folks walk around with when veneration Icons etc? I assume that they are similar to votive candles in Catholicism. As a follow-on...during (probably the middle) of Vespers the entire church went dark save for the candles in the red glass in front of many Icons. I don't know it if was a Litany of the Saints or a series of Psalms...but all of the white candles in front of the Icons were extinguished...only to be relit later. I've looked as the Vespers process online but I don't see this explained and I'm curious.

Several times during Vespers they switched from Slavonic to English...I don't know if this was because the previous Vespers was cancelled or what...is the plainsong chant always that fast? I guess my ears aren't really trained...I had a difficult time following along with the bit that I did understand.

Lastly, there was a reading from the Gospels tonight (John, I think...I assume this is standard). During the middle of Vespers someone came out (the only analogue I have is an altar boy) came out and added another podium type thing in the middle of the church. After the reading a book (which I assume contains the Gospels) was placed on said podium. The entire church lined up, venerated the book and the icon to its left and then received a cross on their foreheads with what (I assume) was a brush dipped in some kind of oil. They then kissed the priests hand and bowed to the rest of the clergy whilst crossing themselves. This, too, I could not find an explantion for online...I had to leave after the dismissal so I didn't have a chance to ask. What was occuring?

I, likewise, will be attending the DL tomorrow so I'm sure I'll have more questions. Sorry if the above doesn't make sense...I'm struggling to describe what I witnesssed.

pax christi,
matt

[Knowledge3]

I think you are asking for explanation of a mystery. This is not the mindset of an Orthodox theologian but is the mindset of a rationalist-scholastic theologian. If you know church history, there is the historical period of Catholic theologians who sought to explain everything in philosophical and academic terms.Those who seek to explain and define everything - even mysteries;(ie:transubstantiation) and so on. This is not Orthodoxy but is something else, which I do not recognize.

[Philothei]

Welcome Tonks! Nice to see you here :)

i am not too familiar with the Russian Vespers. I know that they do sense the icons and they venerate the Gospel and the icon of the feast day that we celebrate for Sunday morning Liturgy. I think Russians also do the "Orthros" (Matins) during vespers...and in the morning they do the "Hours" before Liturgy. I am not quite sure about the "oil" I think it might have been holy water.... and I am guessing here.

Before Liturgy you can ask them to give you the Litrugy book to follow it might be easier for you.

Again welcome!

God bless,
Philothei

[SeraphimSarov]

I don't have time for a long explanation, but what you was the vigil, not just vespers.

[Tonks]

I think you are asking for explanation of a mystery. This is not the mindset of an Orthodox theologian but is the mindset of a rationalist-scholastic theologian. If you know church history, there is the historical period of Catholic theologians who sought to explain everything in philosophical and academic terms.Those who seek to explain and define everything - even mysteries; (transubstantiation) and so on. This is not Orthodoxy but is something else. which I do not recognize.

I was asking folks to describe what happens at Vespers based on what I saw and attempted to describe, K3..that is all.

Thanks.

[Tonks]

I don't have time for a long explanation, but what you was the vigil, not just vespers.

Thanks...I'll poke around and see if I can dig up some info on my own. This is good to know for when I have my scheduled sidebar with a priest tomorrow (er, today).

m

[Theophorus]

It sound like a vespers/mattins combination, which is done for vigils.

The candles were exstiguished for the reading of the 6 psalms: 3, 37, 62, 87, 102, and 142 LXX which is the beginning of Mattins.

[Monica, child of God]

Hi Tonks,

Slavic churches do annoint with oil during the Matins portion of vigil as a blessing. It is not a sacrament so a non-Orthodox may be able to participate. I say may because non-Orthodox are allowed to do so at my parish but I can't speak to the practice of other parishes.

And the candles we light while venerating are akin to the votives used in Catholic churches.

M.

[Monica, child of God]

Oh and the bowing while facing the congregation I think is asking forgiveness of them. Laymen don't do it at my OCA parish but I have seen it at the ROCOR church. At my parish the priest faces the congregation during the Liturgy bows and says forgive me at one point.

M.

[MariaRegina]

Great explanation, Monica.

And asking forgiveness is important to do before receiving Holy Communion at the Divine Liturgy which will be celebrated a few hours later.

[MariaRegina]

What is going on with foru.ms. It seems to need fixing again -- an every day.
occurrence.

Editing a duplicate post -- not surprisingly.

[Tsarina]

Hello all...I have a few quesitons about Vespers.

I went to Vespers tonight for the first time. Unfortunately it was the bookend to the yearly Russian Bazaar so the English was cancelled and only the Slavonic Vespers was held (they do both every weekend). I was surpised at the 2.5 hour length.

So, beyond the fact that I could barely understand what was going on...I did come away with a few questions.

As an aside...I did get a few strange looks as I was standing in the narthex and clearly had little idea of what was going on...I was standing in the way a few times when the temple was being censed...lol. Guess they don't get too many inquirers.

At any rate:

What is the theology behind all of the candles that folks walk around with when veneration Icons etc? I assume that they are similar to votive candles in Catholicism. As a follow-on...during (probably the middle) of Vespers the entire church went dark save for the candles in the red glass in front of many Icons. I don't know it if was a Litany of the Saints or a series of Psalms...but all of the white candles in front of the Icons were extinguished...only to be relit later. I've looked as the Vespers process online but I don't see this explained and I'm curious.

Several times during Vespers they switched from Slavonic to English...I don't know if this was because the previous Vespers was cancelled or what...is the plainsong chant always that fast? I guess my ears aren't really trained...I had a difficult time following along with the bit that I did understand.

Lastly, there was a reading from the Gospels tonight (John, I think...I assume this is standard). During the middle of Vespers someone came out (the only analogue I have is an altar boy) came out and added another podium type thing in the middle of the church. After the reading a book (which I assume contains the Gospels) was placed on said podium. The entire church lined up, venerated the book and the icon to its left and then received a cross on their foreheads with what (I assume) was a brush dipped in some kind of oil. They then kissed the priests hand and bowed to the rest of the clergy whilst crossing themselves. This, too, I could not find an explantion for online...I had to leave after the dismissal so I didn't have a chance to ask. What was occuring?

I, likewise, will be attending the DL tomorrow so I'm sure I'll have more questions. Sorry if the above doesn't make sense...I'm struggling to describe what I witnesssed.

pax christi,
matt

This type of service is a vigil. The Russians do it a bit different than other Orthodox traditions.

The lighting of candles in Church is very common. Candles are lit in front of the icons when one enters the Church or you can lite them during the Litanies ( I know Russians do this). Orthodox people place these candles before icons in remembrance of prayerful intentions. Once these candles are lit, the candle itself is considered holy and is dealt with reverently. Therefore, the Church doesn't throw away the candles but melts them to create more candles or buries them after they're done.

The Russian vigil is longer because they do Orthros at their vigil instead of the next morning. The podium thingy in the middle of the Church is done during vigils in the Russian Orthodox tradition, people venerate the Gospel and Icon placed in the middle of the Church after the Gospel is read and prayers have been asked from many many Saints. People line up and kiss the icon and the Gospel, the Priest anionts the faithful on the forehead with Holy Oil in the sign of the cross. The faithful kiss his hand and bow before him and the people to ask for forgiveness so they can commune the next day at Liturgy in forgiveness.

Furthermore, the readings you heard are usually chanting that fast, I've only noticed this with Russian churches. Russian language itself always sounds so fast, I've heard Russians do the chant/readings in English, and it's not hard to pick up what is being read, everything is understandable.

Hopefully next time they will throw in some English in the service, it will be even more beautiful!

:angel: God Bless.

[RobNJ]

I, likewise, will be attending the DL tomorrow so I'm sure I'll have more questions. Sorry if the above doesn't make sense...I'm struggling to describe what I witnesssed.

pax christi,
matt


Well??? How was it?

[Tsarina]

O, and here is a good link to look at if you want to look up stuff.

Clicky (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/)