Do Orthodox Christians follow Christ?

[SpyridonOCA]

Too often, it's suggested that Evangelical Protestantism is the only legitimate Christianity, and that we, as Orthodox Christians, are deficient in our faith.

Here is one example:
http://www.daveblackonline.com/reaching_the_orthodox_introduction.htm

What can we do to change this perception?

[Oblio]

More lies and deliberate false witness. Not much we can do to change that. I believe I have one of his books on NT Greek, not very well written IMO, seeing how Orthodoxy is presented on his website, I see a correllation.

[Thekla]

Orthodox worship is more "Trinitarian" -- wonder if some interpret this a general lack of focus on Christ ... does that even make sense :confused:

[All4Christ]

My grandma - I'm quite proud of her :-) very internet savvy, lol...Anyways, she heard about me becoming an Orthodox Catechumen, and decided to do a lot of research. I really appreciate her wanting to do this....The problem is - there is so much....propaganda...often from Evangelical perspective...that for her (being Evangelical) she will look at that first. Unfortunately, she found quite a bit similar to this work...and...well....that hasn't exactly "improved" her opinion of Orthodoxy. I love her so much - she's trying so hard to support me despite disagreeing - but it's hard to see her finding things that are misrepresentative of Orthodoxy - and thinking that those are the unbiased sources - rather than that of the Orthodox Church itself. Not to mention that the youth pastor from my old church is itinerating to be a missionary to Macedonia - in particular to witness to the Orthodox Christians :sigh:

[SeraphimSarov]

What can we do? Keep living as an Orthodox Christian should. It's a given that people are going to lie about and slander the Church.

[SpyridonOCA]

Not to mention that the youth pastor from my old church is itinerating to be a missionary to Macedonia - in particular to witness to the Orthodox Christians :sigh:

What the heck?

[All4Christ]

I know. :(

[All4Christ]

That's one of my big reasons for leaving my church - when I found out he was thinking about that. Well - the final straw. There were a lot of other things but I KNEW I couldn't be there when I heard that.

[Hoankan]

I've had several Baptists come after me trying to prove the Orthodox Church is wrong. It's pretty sad

[Theophorus]

"...We do not have many Orthodox churches here in America. The closest thing we have is Roman Catholicism. In fact, back in the history of Christendom, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches were one and the same. If you remember your Christian history, in the first few hundred years after our Lord’s death and resurrection, the Body of Jesus met in homes, led by “non-professional” men, suffering greatly at the hands of non-believing Gentiles and Jews alike. The fellowship of the Churches was unstructured; there were no seminaries or formal Bible schools...."

from here (http://www.daveblackonline.com/reaching_the_orthodox2.htm), linked off that site. Real scholarly stuff and well informed. :tutu:

[Breaking Babylon]

When I get a lot of flack about Orthodoxy being wrong, I try to ask for prayers, and never tell them they're wrong, only try as humbly as I can to tell them our side of the picture. Being passive tends to annoy them, and their huffy spirit of pride only strengthens my belief in Orthodoxy. ;)

[Hoankan]

I'll second Isaac's comments. I just need to be better at following them

[Cyprian31]

As some of you may know, I work in a Baptist-run mission. My boss, God bless him, is a Baptist minister. So is our night manager. Our former NM is in training to be one. I am the only Orthodox in the building, in fact. So one could say I'm in a rather unique position, in re this subject.

Havi I been witnessed to, been on the recieving end of a conversion attempt? Of course. And , generally speaking, the ones who attempt this use material like the ones mentioned elsewhere in this thread. But, surprise surprise, the ones who generally try to "convert" me to "Jesus" (ie, thier version of it) tend to not be staff, or even actual clergy of any sort. Most of 'em tend to know the "Romans Switchback" (roads are straight, not skipping around three chapters) and maybe six or seven other verses, all used as proof texts. If ever you really wanna have some fun with these guys, give 'em the full quote and the context. But I digress.

Let's face it : as Orthodox Christians, we're gonna face persecution. And it especially stings from those who claim to worship the very God we do. All we can do really is pray, live truly Orthdox lives, and preach Christ. But there will never be true unity til God decides enough is enough and ends this silly little play.

God bless and forgive me.

[Jacob4707]

From a related article on David Alan Black's Website (I have several of his books on NT Greek and Linguistics):I have recently been reading a book entitled Warriors of Ethiopia (see *** below). I highly recommend this book! It will open your eyes to the things suffered by Ethiopian evangelists in winning the Omo Valley of southeastern Ethiopia for the Gospel. The persecution often came from the Orthodox priests, and these priests controlled the judges and government officials. Why were these “Christians” so opposed to the Word of God? Because it changed society! Those accepting the Gospel had changed lives. They no longer lived in fear, they no longer bribed officials or paid the church tax, they no longer blindly obeyed the priests. For the first time in their lives, they lived in joy and peace and freedom. Wherever the Gospel was received, society changed, and the old order (including the Orthodox hierarchy) fought back. (As a child, I was stoned by Orthodox children, on order of their priests; thankfully, I was able to get away before serious damage was done.)I think Becky (who wrote the above) must be Dave's wife.

Per Theophorus, her description of Church history is pretty simplistic and faulty and betrays an ignorance of scholarly studies of the subject, IMO:
If you remember your Christian history, in the first few hundred years after our Lord’s death and resurrection, the Body of Jesus met in homes, led by “non-professional” men, suffering greatly at the hands of non-believing Gentiles and Jews alike. The fellowship of the Churches was unstructured; there were no seminaries or formal Bible schools. The Gospel flowed from town to town as the people of God moved from town to town. Sometimes these people were sent by the Churches as missionaries (for example, Paul and Barnabas); sometimes they were just scattered by persecution (such as Priscilla and Aquila). But everywhere Christians went, they spoke of the Way of Jesus; theirs was a living testimony filled with the Spirit.Then came Constantine. It was 312 years after the birth of our Lord Jesus. As Constantine came to his final battle, the city of Rome lay before him. Hailed as Augustus by his troops in the western part of the Roman Empire, he was now conquering the eastern part to unite all of the Empire under his leadership. He had a vision of a cross just prior to the battle. In the confidence of that vision, he won the victory. And after the victory, he pronounced that all his empire would become “Christian.” All of his soldiers were baptized upon his command and a cross was painted on their shields. Thus was born the “Holy Roman Empire.”And what was the effect of this first “Christian” Emperor upon the Lord’s Church? He ended the persecution of the Christians through the Edict of Milan. He joined pagan things with Christian things to form synergistic religion. (For example, the celebration of Christ’s birth was joined to the worship of the birthday of the pagan sun god; this sun god was Constantine’s favorite pagan god.) He built Christian monuments and buildings beside pagan ones; the old St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem were built by him. He gave some of the government functions to the church, such that the church became an arm of the government. He called together councils of church leaders to debate and decide doctrinal issues. (For example, the Council of Nicea decided the canon of the Scriptures.) During the structuring of his empire, the Bishop of Rome, the Bishop of Antioch, and the Bishop of Alexandria were established; later the Bishop of Constantinople and the Bishop of Jerusalem were added.How can she ask us to remember something which she herself apparently has never really studied? :scratch: She sounds like she saw THE DA VINCI CODE one too many times.

[Philothei]

But everywhere Christians went, they spoke of the Way of Jesus; theirs was a living testimony filled with the Spirit.


So.... after Constantine came to the picture all the "spirit" left....went bye bye....lol.... And who put the Bible together and the canon of the OT and NT? ....aha... little spirit filled ministers called the Fathers...

What a dirstortion of Church history....Forgive me

And God bless,
Philothei

[Brushstroke]

Yeah, right around this time last year after my chrismation, my friends from the First Baptist church I used to go to really jumped on me for converting to Orthodoxy. They thought it was just some weird form of Catholicism, as one of them had "studied" the faith through a mission trip to Romania and told the others about it, so they assumed they were informed. Like Cyprian said, all they really said were a few "proof texts" against some things that they think Roman Catholics are wrong for doing (praying to the Mary and to the saints, the Eucharist, Church hierarchy, etc...you've all heard this before) and we had some fun little talks about all this lol.

But you know, all we can really do is pray for them and for ourselves and just live our lives as the Orthodox we are.

~Phil~

[authiodionitist]

When I get a lot of flack about Orthodoxy being wrong, I try to ask for prayers, and never tell them they're wrong, only try as humbly as I can to tell them our side of the picture. Being passive tends to annoy them, and their huffy spirit of pride only strengthens my belief in Orthodoxy. ;)
Blessed catechumenate to you, brother.

[buzuxi02]

Once again we see the hypocricy of those that teach "there is no visible church, all christians regardless of congregation are the body of Christ known only to God".

These same hippocrites then send their missionaries to already christian lands to set up rival churches and pit small villagers against each other.

It also demonstrates the arrogance of american missionaries. Because of their wealth they think they can travel the world over and convert everyone to their false american gospel, can you imagine if thousands of buddhist monks came to the south to convert everyone.

[Jacob4707]

can you imagine if thousands of buddhist monks came to the south to convert everyone.

Would they drink sweet tea?

[Komnenos]

Its amazing what these "Evangelicals" do! There even here in Turkey trying to Convert Greek, Turk Jew and Armenian alike! Its ridiculous. "We are all Christians" they say then why try to make us worship in your way?

[MoNiCa4316]

Oki I'm evangelical Protestant and I don't consider myself 'more Christian' than you guys...I think many people just don't know enough about Orthodoxy, and that's why they think that. I don't know very much either, but I've been to an EO church and my family is Orthodox...so to me, it's a valid form of Christianity.

But to be fair, please remember that the way you feel when you read things like that is how we feel when we're told that our churches are 'false'...once I was reading another Orthodox forum, and there was a discussion about Protestants...and there was a lot of incorrect stuff there, but what really hurt is when someone suggested that we pray to the devil. I hear stuff like that about Protestants all the time, even at TAW. My point is that Christians are persecuted by each other...it's not just 'evil heretical Protestants' persecuting 'innocent Orthodox Christians'...we're all involved in this "silly little play" and I don't believe that God is pleased by any of it. I know it hurts you when people talk this way about Orthodoxy, and I also wish they would stop trying to convert you. But it hurts us too when you suggest that we don't worship the same God or that our worship is somehow wrong or unacceptable to Him. I know you love the Liturgy, but I love my church too, and I also follow Christ.

Forgive me for this rant..

[Oblio]

I learned tonight (listening to the ever humorous 'Berean Call' with your hosts Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon) that icons are used to conjur up spirits. :doh:

[skoi]

When we were researching Ethiopian adoption, I was in contact with many Evangelicals who were adopting there. There was a particular hardcore group who would admonish everyone about the importance of "keeping the children's culture", and then went on to talk about taking the kids to church, and getting them dedicated, etc. b

I asked a few times that if it were known the children were Orthodox (and often this information is available) why they weren't respecting the children's Orthodoxy. I was never answered, not even privately. It really bothered me that these people were so set on making injeel correctly, getting dolls of color with Ethiopian clothing, but wouldn't even bother to respond to a serious question of faith and culture. It was as if separating the children from their Orthodoxy was no big deal, but buying your new little girl a Caucasian barbie was tantamount to cultural genocide.

[Thekla]

When we were researching Ethiopian adoption, I was in contact with many Evangelicals who were adopting there. There was a particular hardcore group who would admonish everyone about the importance of "keeping the children's culture", and then went on to talk about taking the kids to church, and getting them dedicated, etc. b

I asked a few times that if it were known the children were Orthodox (and often this information is available) why they weren't respecting the children's Orthodoxy. I was never answered, not even privately. It really bothered me that these people were so set on making injeel correctly, getting dolls of color with Ethiopian clothing, but wouldn't even bother to respond to a serious question of faith and culture. It was as if separating the children from their Orthodoxy was no big deal, but buying your new little girl a Caucasian barbie was tantamount to cultural genocide.

oh my :(

we have so thoroughly separated Christianity from "culture" that Christianity seems more like ideology...
As a convert, I was so impressed at how, among the 'traditional' Orthodox, culture had become so infused with Christ.
At one time, there was great concern that immigrants would "appropriately lose" their ethnicity and become "Americans" (whatever that may mean).
This new twist is rather odd ...

[SpyridonOCA]

But to be fair, please remember that the way you feel when you read things like that is how we feel when we're told that our churches are 'false'...

Protestantism, having no legitimate basis in traditional Christianity, is false. That doesn't mean we should doubt the faith of individual Protestants, given that God saves whomever He may wish, but the system of thought known as Protestantism is fundamentally flawed.

[Akathist]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoNiCa4316 http://www3.foru.ms/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=39953995#post39953995)
But to be fair, please remember that the way you feel when you read things like that is how we feel when we're told that our churches are 'false'...


If someone here said that the protestant churches were false I believe they would mean that those churches teach doctrines that are false compared to our doctrines.

I read almost every single day someone say something about how the doctrines of my Church are false. Of course, that is in the area Theology moderates.

Here in TAW you will find all EO members consider many of the doctrines to be false. This is our congregational area. We have all chosen to be EO. Even those born into the faith have chosen to remain in it. We chose what we feel to be the True Church.

I am sorry if this hurts your feelings. But if you think about it, a Baptist would tell a Methodist the very same thing (and vice versa).

I want to also state that most people here believe that God decides on salvation, not us. Just because someone goes to a church we think teaches wrong doctrine this does not mean they are not Christian or that they are necessarily lost.

[WarriorAngel]

What can you do?
Ignore it, and keep believing, and pray for them.

[Mytheodos]

Do Orthodox Christians follow Christ?


Too often, it's suggested that Evangelical Protestantism is the only legitimate Christianity, and that we, as Orthodox Christians, are deficient in our faith


Orthodox Christians do follow Christ(The Head),
but Christ also has a Body(The Church)
The Orthodox Church:crosseo:

Once again we see the hypocricy of those that teach "there is no visible church, all christians regardless of congregation are the body of Christ known only to God

If this were true let me see... :confused: Christ the Head would have Multiple bodies?(Churches) or the body(The Church) would have Multiple Heads?
(Faiths)
:idea: .... Oh lord that.. thats a monster:eek:

[SaintMarina]

My grandma - I'm quite proud of her :-) very internet savvy, lol...Anyways, she heard about me becoming an Orthodox Catechumen, and decided to do a lot of research. I really appreciate her wanting to do this....The problem is - there is so much....propaganda...often from Evangelical perspective...that for her (being Evangelical) she will look at that first. Unfortunately, she found quite a bit similar to this work...and...well....that hasn't exactly "improved" her opinion of Orthodoxy. I love her so much - she's trying so hard to support me despite disagreeing - but it's hard to see her finding things that are misrepresentative of Orthodoxy - and thinking that those are the unbiased sources - rather than that of the Orthodox Church itself. Not to mention that the youth pastor from my old church is itinerating to be a missionary to Macedonia - in particular to witness to the Orthodox Christians :sigh:
Well, my mother in law and her mother have done their own "Research" (my husband and I have been catechumens for a year but we inquired a year before that), they never asked us what we believed or anything...only to come in our home and attack us verbally saying God would take our kids from us, accused me of being a negligent mother(what this has to with us giong to the Orthodox Church I do not know), and also accused me of brainwashing my husband. They made remarks to others that we are worshipping devils.

[Alchemist]

Hey Spyridon,

I don't know if it's the case with all Christians, but in the Evangelical movement, I think this perception is caused by two things, firstly, our worship, which seems legalistic to those outside of the faith, and secondly, our perceived lack of evangelism.

Of course, neither of these are true; Orthodox worship, though conservative, is not legalistic at all, and though our services have a fixed structure, I don't know of one evangelical Protestant church that doesn't - even the so-called "open worship" at the fundie-Brethren church I used to attend was in truth just a fixed period of time in a fixed part of the fixed order of the service in which pretty much the same things happened every week. In other words, Orthodox worship is only legalistic if you are not a practising Orthodox, and hence know not the significance and reason for what we are doing.

As for evangelism, that really just comes down to where we are in the world. My good W.A.S.E. friend is always telling me that we Orthodox seem to not be very evangelical, otherwise one would expect there to be Orthodox churches all over the place, and we'd send out missionaries and stuff. Of course, these things are happening! It's just that for us, to simply go to a village and give people Bibles isn't acceptable; to "evangelise" to another country involves sending priests to live their permanently, setting up parishes, translating Bibles, theological and liturgical works into other languages, and supporting the people long-term.

As such, we may take time in reaching new places, but we send missionaries, we build churches, we translate Bibles, we distribute writings and "tracts", we have conferences and youth camps, we speak in universities and public meetings - what isn't evangelical about Orthodoxy? It's just that we are a smaller group in America and the English-speaking West than in traditionally Orthodox countries, so nonsense about Orthodoxy being boring, legalistic, and irrelevant is easily accepted.

Peace,
Nick

[Philothei]

hey All for Christ, do not worry about Protestants missionising to Orhtodox it will never work. In Greece Protestant churches have tried for over 100 years now and more to "missionize" in Greece and the percentages are less tha 002% for each group.

Orthodoxy in this country did not evangelize (except for the Russian Church and Alaska) since Orthodox nationals came to this county as refuges from communism or to find jobs here, they did not come to evangelize. The geographical factor must be taken unter consideration for example Alaska was closer to Russia.. Also Africa was greatly evangelized by the GOA since the old times since Greece is closer in proximity to Africa.
I think that today we are somehow more organized in this country we are able to evangelize more. Also it is worth to mention that evangelization in the Orthodox mind set is different than the western mindset. We are not "proffesional" missionaries that we are send to preach the gospel and specifiacally target these people using sociological surveys etc. Our premise is simple: we are practicing Christians with a world view of a Christian ethos that was based on the Ancient Christian Church and its founder Jesus Christ, and a continuation ot the worshiping community that organized and put together the Bible.
Conversions that are based on a scientific method have an expiration date. They are hurried and superficial. It used to take up to 3 years for people to convert to christianity in the old days. It was a commitment of the mind the heart and the body, it encompassed the whole life style of a person not reduced to a Sunday worship obligation.

That is the reason why we are not allowing Holy Communion to be given to anyone who has not been baptized because to be christian is not to be taken lightly. If one thinks that the Ancient Church was ....legalistic then it is their problem not ours, because we know that it is not. The Church has a responsibilty to keep the body of Christ and reserve it for those who are truly members of that body.
You cannot decide to be a Christian one weekend and change you mind the following Monday....

God bless,
Philothei

[pjw]

http://www.daveblackonline.com/reaching_the_orthodox_introduction.htm

pure propaganda

[Philothei]

Not an idea where you are going with that.

[Philothei]

In the first place ... How dare you go to an christian country trying to evangelize the already christian people? I see it fit to go to Mulsim countries to evangelize. That would make more sense to me, but Ethiopia has been Christian before all these Protestant branches ever came to exist.

God bless,
Philothei

[buzuxi02]

In the first place ... How dare you go to an christian country trying to evangelize the already christian people? I see it fit to go to Mulsim countries to evangelize. That would make more sense to me, but Ethiopia has been Christian before all these Protestant branches ever came to exist.

God bless,
Philothei
I agree with you Philothei,

This is my reasoning on my previous post #18. I also singled out american missionary work since the majority of missionary work is carried out by americans who have good financing.

I still stand by what i say and that a resolution should be passed by the U.N. barring american missionary work abroad unless their asked to go their by either the authorities or their sister churches (if any).

The second largest country which does missionary work is Korea, atleast they go to other non-christian asian countries. Im sure we all remember the ordeal of the korean mission workers kidnapped by the taliban in afghanistan. Quite a difference between the two.