The Laws of Niddah

[simchat_torah]

feel free to explain your vote.

[simchat_torah]

btw... The poll is for males and females.

The poll is also for married and unmarried peoples.

I'm just curious overall who observes Niddah, and if so... how... and if not... why not?

curious,
Yafet

[Talmidah]

I voted, but this really should have been an anonymous poll.

[HaNotsri]

I said no. Simply put, I am not Jewish and don't feel like I've been led to follow the laws of Niddah. But that's not to say, I purposely try to break the laws either

[ChavaK]

I didn't vote because you left out one option...those of
us who used to (or would) but are no longer of the age
that we need to follow them....

[Bananna]

Yes, as much as possible. My husband is not on board with this and many of the laws really take two to keep in practise.

We only have one bed. If Hubby falls asleep on the bed I use the sofa and visa versa, but that does not keep him from finding me.

Also we have no mikveh. A stream is the best I can do and I wear cotton. Mid winter is very difficult to get to the stream and I have ended up using a kiddy pool or the shower. We have lots of rainfall right now so the pool is adequate.

Separation and not touching is also hard. Trying to explain to hubby why not to hug good bye before work is just not easy.

It goes on and on.

It is what I consider healthy for me and just one way to take care of this body.
bananna

[Talmidah]

I didn't vote because you left out one option...those of
us who used to (or would) but are no longer of the age
that we need to follow them.... Maybe someone can add in another option to the poll?

[simchat_torah]

I would answer "yes" then Chava. Merely because it doesn't apply (just as some of the mitzvot don't apply to males) does not mean that you don't observe Niddah ;)

[simchat_torah]

but this really should have been an anonymous poll.I thought about that actually. But I decided since I didn't ask specific questions, and we are a mature audience, that it was ok. I didn't ask anything private, just in general "niddah yea or neigh?".

[GerTzedek]

For the first time, I'm glad I can't vote!

Don't you think this is WAY too personal?????? You made a BIGGA boo-boo. It was a mistake not to make the poll anonymous. Adults a-schmultz. Would you have asked an adult woman at your shul this question? Such things are private.

We did have an amazingly thorough discussion about this in the Orthodox Messianic Fellowship Forum, but it was, appropriately, WOMEN ONLY.

[ChazakEmunah]

It's not really a personal question. It could have been worded as tacharat hamishpacha... but then very few would know what that means. The laws of tacharat hamispacha are incumbent upon all Jews, so I don't necessarily think that it's an inappropriate question for an internet forum. Now if he were to start asking about personal details of how we observed it then I would direct him to a competent Rabbi.

[ChavaK]

I voted, but this really should have been an anonymous poll.

Good point...niddah is something that is kept very
private, so the poll should definitely be anonymous...

[simchat_torah]

I didn't ask anything personal. I merely asked an extremely general question "yes or no". Do you observe Niddah (men and women). Its like asking "Do you observe Kosher". Its not like asking "Do you eat shrimp". I don't want to know what goes on behind your closed doors, and in your private life. This is a forum where Jewish-centric topics are the point of discussion, and I expected a mature approach.

As well, this isn't something that merely applies to women. My old Rabbi once gave the following teaching. He said that men have many responsibilities during Niddah, the most important is how the treat a woman during this time. A woman's soul is mourning the death, the passing of potential life, and her soul is carrying the grief. A man's responsibility is to treat her with extra kindness, gentleness, and patience during this time.

Of course, there's much more a man must do, but I wasn't really asking for these details. I merely asked a general question overall...

One thing I am curious is how does one approach the subject when they don't live in an Orthodox community where there is a mikvah available? This question has intrigued me for some time.

But no, this question wasn't just for females... and no, I don't want to know the details of your private life. I merely wanted to have a mature discussion on a Jewish subject.

If you feel your toes are stepped on for some reason, then by all means, don't participate in the discussion. I do think, however, many would benefit from the advice given by the mature observant jewish members of this forum.

[HadassahSukkot]

I can understand it being anonymous and not...

I observe it partially. there is no mikveh within distance, so I do what I can from home. Also, there is no lake or river either..

[simchat_torah]

There are actually Orthodox halacha regarding those who don't live in a community (or no mikvah is available). A certain ammount of living water is required (I don't remember the measurements, but its not much, you can keep some living water in a container at home). You can collect it from rainwater too. Just not a lake, pond, or anything stagnant (that is not considered "living").

[Talmidah]

There are actually Orthodox halacha regarding those who don't live in a community (or no mikvah is available). A certain ammount of living water is required (I don't remember the measurements, but its not much, you can keep some living water in a container at home). You can collect it from rainwater too. Just not a lake, pond, or anything stagnant (that is not considered "living").
I've never learned this. Maybe Chava knows about this? I met one couple who lives in Alaska (shluchim) and the wife would fly to Seattle each month to use the mikvah until they got one built where they live.

[HaNotsri]

I've never learned this. Maybe Chava knows about this? I met one couple who lives in Alaska (shluchim) and the wife would fly to Seattle each month to use the mikvah until they got one built where they live.

Maybe she only immerses in mikva'ot named Mikveh Chaya Mushka ;-) lol (which, when there's gets built, they'll name it)

Michael

[Bananna]

There are actually Orthodox halacha regarding those who don't live in a community (or no mikvah is available). A certain ammount of living water is required (I don't remember the measurements, but its not much, you can keep some living water in a container at home). You can collect it from rainwater too. Just not a lake, pond, or anything stagnant (that is not considered "living").
This is why I commented on the kiddy pool.

We have streams around close not deep enough...

We have ocean water, Rain Water. Glacier run off.

If you don't mind a long drive you can go to the hot springs...

Is there a standard for containers?

[Talmidah]

Maybe she only immerses in mikva'ot named Mikveh Chaya Mushka ;-) lol (which, when there's gets built, they'll name it)

Michael :D

[Talmidah]

Showers? Kid pools? Even setting aside so many halachic issues, how would get almost 200 gallons of water into such a thing?

[simchat_torah]

how would get almost 200 gallons of water into such a thing?Technically, one must only fully submerge themselves into the water, hair and all. 200 gallons is a typical minimum measurement to make sure this happens, but from what I've read a specific ammount isn't required, only that the individual can be fully submerged (fingernails, hair, toes and all). As well, it doesn't all have to be "living water", but some must be added to fulfill the halacha (though I don't remember how much is required, but its a small portion).

As far as the container that is used... it can be plastic, stone, or glass. But not wood, or any other material that can absorb the water. When the container is completely emptied, it must then be submerged in living water when you go to fill it up again, and rinsed clean in the living water. Then you may fill it up again, to transport the living water you will dole out for a mikvah.

[ChavaK]

There are actually Orthodox halacha regarding those who don't live in a community (or no mikvah is available). A certain ammount of living water is required (I don't remember the measurements, but its not much, you can keep some living water in a container at home). You can collect it from rainwater too. Just not a lake, pond, or anything stagnant (that is not considered "living").

I've never hear such a thing...what is your source
for this?
You don't have to use a mikveh...a river for example
will work...

[GerTzedek]

It's not really a personal question. It could have been worded as tacharat hamishpacha... but then very few would know what that means. The laws of tacharat hamispacha are incumbent upon all Jews, so I don't necessarily think that it's an inappropriate question for an internet forum. Now if he were to start asking about personal details of how we observed it then I would direct him to a competent Rabbi.
Well, consider me an old-fashioned prude then. This is simply not a question I would ever in a million years answer in a mixed gender public forum, internet or real life.

[ChavaK]

I've never learned this. Maybe Chava knows about this? I met one couple who lives in Alaska (shluchim) and the wife would fly to Seattle each month to use the mikvah until they got one built where they live.

I've never heard of such a thing either, but then again
I am not an expert on taharah mishpachah...
I have heard of others commuting to communities
to use their mikveh, although you can use a different
body of water if necessary. Although I guess in
Alaska it would be a little cold...:)

[ChavaK]

Maybe she only immerses in mikva'ot named Mikveh Chaya Mushka ;-) lol (which, when there's gets built, they'll name it)

Michael

Not necessarily.....the Chabad mikveh in our area
is called Mikveh Shoshanah.
We allowed four Lubavitch girls to stay in our
shabbas apartment when they were in town
to teach at the kids day camp. Three of the
four were named Chaya Mushka...:)
I figured roll call must be interesting in a Chabad
school.....

[Henaynei]

it has always been my desire to "keep fully" but I have been prevented...

I was forbidden to use the local mikvah, even when I explained that my husband was Jewish and we wanted to keep niddah.

Thus I was left using the shower as a very poor substitute in which I depended on kavannah and grace to cleanse me.

My husband and I remain apart during this time and we keep that which we know, but since no one is willing to teach us we've had to learn on our own, a substandard method in such matters, at best.

b'Shalom v'Shavua Tov
Henaynei

[ChazakEmunah]

Technically, one must only fully submerge themselves into the water, hair and all. 200 gallons is a typical minimum measurement to make sure this happens, but from what I've read a specific ammount isn't required, only that the individual can be fully submerged (fingernails, hair, toes and all). As well, it doesn't all have to be "living water", but some must be added to fulfill the halacha (though I don't remember how much is required, but its a small portion).

As far as the container that is used... it can be plastic, stone, or glass. But not wood, or any other material that can absorb the water. When the container is completely emptied, it must then be submerged in living water when you go to fill it up again, and rinsed clean in the living water. Then you may fill it up again, to transport the living water you will dole out for a mikvah.
I was told (and I can't remember the source that was quoted) right before Yom Kippur that one may use a *shower or a swimming pool as a mikvah as long as it is not necessary to make a brakha afterward. I don't know if a brakha is required for tacharat hamishpacha or not though.

* A shower may be used if one stands under the shower head for six full minutes, as this will generate the required amount of water.

[Talmidah]

I would really like to see some of these sources if you guys can remember them or look them up for us.

[HadassahSukkot]

I would really like to see some of these sources if you guys can remember them or look them up for us.
Count me in also, because even the sources I know of online do not say thus. One must go to the kosher mikveh or otherwise in living waters (sea, river, ocean, gulf) for it to be valid.

Hence my saying I have up til now been unable to fufill that part. I have about 6 more months to 'worry' over what to do and how to take care of it, as there is a good bit involved in how things are to be dealt with.

Personally, if I knew I would be welcomed in Frankfurt, I'd start looking up the # for the mikveh... but I am unsure if DH or I would be welcome so we're kind of riding the fence looking to see how we can obey as we should

[ChazakEmunah]

I would really like to see some of these sources if you guys can remember them or look them up for us.
I will ask again this Shabbos. I think it was either the Mishna Breuah or the Shulkhan Arukh. I can't remember which one though. I just remember that my wife and I both used the shower as our mikvah the day before Yom Kippur.

[ChavaK]

I will ask again this Shabbos. I think it was either the Mishna Breuah or the Shulkhan Arukh. I can't remember which one though. I just remember that my wife and I both used the shower as our mikvah the day before Yom Kippur.

Perhaps it is allowed for men for yom tov, but not
women for taharah mishpahah? I've just never heard
of it,not that that would be anything unusual....:)

[ChavaK]

Personally, if I knew I would be welcomed in Frankfurt, I'd start looking up the # for the mikveh... but I am unsure if DH or I would be welcome

I think the reaction Henny got would be the universal
one....just have that mindset when you ask, so as
not to be hurt with the response. And understand why
they would give such a ruling...:wave:

[ChazakEmunah]

Perhaps it is allowed for men for yom tov, but not
women for taharah mishpahah? I've just never heard
of it,not that that would be anything unusual....:)
This may very well be the case. I know that the ruling is only in effect if no kosher mikvah is available. However, for tacharat hamispacha, most women will go the extra lengths to get to a kosher mikvah. I haven't seen the source myself, just heard of it. I will look up tacharat hamishpacha in my copy of the Shulchan Arukh, and will ask again this Shabbos.

[GerTzedek]

The only thing I'm going to add to this discussion is the following:

There was an occasion when I asked the Rabbi of one of the local Chabad's about those in mixed marriages wishing to observe this set of laws. His response was there was absolutely no reason for it. The whole purpose of this commandment set is to bring Jewish children into the world. If a Jewish man marries a gentile woman, he has already irreperably prevented himself from fulfilling this mitzvah, and there remains no reason for he or his wife to observe the rules regarding Niddah.

[Talmidah]

There was an occasion when I asked the Rabbi of one of the local Chabad's about those in mixed marriages wishing to observe this set of laws. His response was there was absolutely no reason for it. The whole purpose of this commandment set is to bring Jewish children into the world. If a Jewish man marries a gentile woman, he has already irreperably prevented himself from fulfilling this mitzvah, and there remains no reason for he or his wife to observe the rules regarding Niddah.
This is what I have learned as well.

[HaNotsri]

The only thing I'm going to add to this discussion is the following:

There was an occasion when I asked the Rabbi of one of the local Chabad's about those in mixed marriages wishing to observe this set of laws. His response was there was absolutely no reason for it. The whole purpose of this commandment set is to bring Jewish children into the world. If a Jewish man marries a gentile woman, he has already irreperably prevented himself from fulfilling this mitzvah, and there remains no reason for he or his wife to observe the rules regarding Niddah.

It's true. If a Jewish man marries a non-Jewish woman (something that is assur), then taharas hamishpocha is out the window. Either you follow taharas hamishpocha or you don't? That goes for niddah or marrying within the faith. Futhermore, the child wouldn't be Jewish anyhow.

[ChazakEmunah]

The only thing I'm going to add to this discussion is the following:

There was an occasion when I asked the Rabbi of one of the local Chabad's about those in mixed marriages wishing to observe this set of laws. His response was there was absolutely no reason for it. The whole purpose of this commandment set is to bring Jewish children into the world. If a Jewish man marries a gentile woman, he has already irreperably prevented himself from fulfilling this mitzvah, and there remains no reason for he or his wife to observe the rules regarding Niddah.
I suppose it depends on how old the couple is. If they've already had children then the damage is done. If they have not, then the woman should be encouraged to convert. If she refuses, they should divorce.

[GerTzedek]

I suppose it depends on how old the couple is. If they've already had children then the damage is done. If they have not, then the woman should be encouraged to convert. If she refuses, they should divorce.
If she converts simply because she is married to him, how authentic is that conversion?

I've heard good arguments on both sides. I realize the Kings of old had their wives convert for this reason. I also am acutely aware that their wives were never really accepted as true converts.

It seems to me that, no matter which way you slice it, intermarriage simply is a very, very bad idea, because once done, very little can be done to salvage the situation.

There are, of course, always exceptions to the rule.

[simchat_torah]

I would never encourage a divorce.


Anyway, sorry I've been awol the past few days. I've been traveling back to Illinois to wrap up the packing of the house, my movers are coming this weekend, and my wife desperately needed help. Also, it was her birthday, so I flew back to visit with her for a few days.

I may be in the midst of a change of jobs, again (but this is good news). So I'm not sure how much time I will have to dedicate to CF in the next couple of weeks between the move, interviews, clients, job changes, etc.

Hopefully, I'll find some time soon...
-Yafet

[ChazakEmunah]

I would never encourage a divorce.
Well, if no children are involved and a Jew is married to a non-Jew, it is the only way to rectify the situation if the non-Jewish spouse refuses to convert. As HaNotsri pointed out, it is assur for a Jew to marry a non-Jew.


Anyway, sorry I've been awol the past few days. I've been traveling back to Illinois to wrap up the packing of the house, my movers are coming this weekend, and my wife desperately needed help. Also, it was her birthday, so I flew back to visit with her for a few days.

I may be in the midst of a change of jobs, again (but this is good news). So I'm not sure how much time I will have to dedicate to CF in the next couple of weeks between the move, interviews, clients, job changes, etc.

Hopefully, I'll find some time soon...
-Yafet
Wow, another job change? Good luck with it. I hope it goes well for you.

[simchat_torah]

Wow, another job change?Yeah, I'm trying to get back into the video game industry(see note below). The job I'm interviewing for is an amazing position, basically overseeing all of the U.S. operations for a European company, and interfacing with developers from around the world. My final interview (hopefully final) is tomorrow (tuesday) at 4pm PST. Feel free to *ahem* pull some strings upstairs if you feel so led :D


***The video game industry specifically excites me as the work tends to be more creative than simple IT development. As well, it is a booming field. In 2005 video games made more than movies. This year they are making more than music. Analysts predict by 2009 the video game industry will make more than movies, music, and television combined! I'm just hoping to crack back in again, find a secure job so the wife can quit teaching for awhile and we can make babies ;)

[ChazakEmunah]

Yeah, I'm trying to get back into the video game industry(see note below). The job I'm interviewing for is an amazing position, basically overseeing all of the U.S. operations for a European company, and interfacing with developers from around the world. My final interview (hopefully final) is tomorrow (tuesday) at 4pm PST. Feel free to *ahem* pull some strings upstairs if you feel so led :D
It sounds like a pretty sweet job. Is it perm or contract?


***The video game industry specifically excites me as the work tends to be more creative than simple IT development. As well, it is a booming field. In 2005 video games made more than movies. This year they are making more than music. Analysts predict by 2009 the video game industry will make more than movies, music, and television combined! I'm just hoping to crack back in again, find a secure job so the wife can quit teaching for awhile and we can make babies ;)
Ahhh.... So the real reason for this is that you have baby fever huh? ;)

[simchat_torah]

It sounds like a pretty sweet job. Is it perm or contract?Perm.
Lots of international travel too. I'll let everyone know how it goes in my other thread.
Ahhh.... So the real reason for this is that you have baby fever huh? ;)Well... one of us does ;)