Shabbos and coffee

[Torah613]

Ok, so as stated in another thread, I have a deep and abiding love for all things coffee. I even eat the mud at the bottom of those little cups of greek coffee. I have in my home, and espresso maker, cappachino maker (these two are in combination) and a coffee maker.

So after several trials and errors (all errors) I have yet to come up with a way to make coffee that doesn't violate the laws of Shabbos. Last weekend it wasn't a big deal as I was back home to meet my new neice, and dad (who's goy) gets up at the ungodly early hour of 4 every single day so he made the coffee.

So anyways, I need help! Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Ok, so as stated in another thread, I have a deep and abiding love for all things coffee. I even eat the mud at the bottom of those little cups of greek coffee. I have in my home, and espresso maker, cappachino maker (these two are in combination) and a coffee maker.

So after several trials and errors (all errors) I have yet to come up with a way to make coffee that doesn't violate the laws of Shabbos. Last weekend it wasn't a big deal as I was back home to meet my new neice, and dad (who's goy) gets up at the ungodly early hour of 4 every single day so he made the coffee.

So anyways, I need help! Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Yochanan

Can you stand instant coffee?
If so, you can pour hot water into a dry kli sheni (although if you're stringent use a kli shlishi) and add the instant coffee to the water.

[HadassahSukkot]

I was wondering the same. I'm not a coffee drinker and have to monitor my caffene intake for now, so I hadn't really been faced with this delimma.

I know I'm a complete heretic, we don't even have a coffee pot or machine. LOL

I do have instant coffee pads for recipes that call for coffee though, so maybe I'm "safe" for now ;)

The thing that came readily to mind was either leaving an already cooked pot on, but not 'accessing' it until Shabbat... but long standing coffee can be really.. uhm... yeah

Then I thought what Chava said... I'd probably go with that before the other. LOL

[ChavaK]

I was wondering the same. I'm not a coffee drinker and have to monitor my caffene intake for now, so I hadn't really been faced with this delimma.

I know I'm a complete heretic, we don't even have a coffee pot or machine. LOL

I do have instant coffee pads for recipes that call for coffee though, so maybe I'm "safe" for now ;)

The thing that came readily to mind was either leaving an already cooked pot on, but not 'accessing' it until Shabbat... but long standing coffee can be really.. uhm... yeah

Then I thought what Chava said... I'd probably go with that before the other. LOL

I personaly can't stand coffee, so I don't have this
problem....:)

[GerTzedek]

I chime in with the "Instant Coffee" crowd. I leave a pot of water on the shabbat stove.

I've never asked about it. It's possible that mixing the hot water with my coffee is cooking. I mean, think about all the things you could do "Instant" this way???? Instant Cup of Noodles. Instant Oatmeal.

Maybe its the difference between something merely being dissolved in the hot water, and actually changed? Food preparation is okay, cooking is not. Where is the line between them?

Because the flip side is, what is the difference in making instant coffee from adding syrup and making chocolate milk other than the temperature of the liquid?

And why do I bother trying to figure all this out, when I can just ASK?

Okay, Rabbi, I'm asking.

Sheesh, I don't know how the "bible only" crowd can manage this stuff.

[Talmidah]

I personaly can't stand coffee, so I don't have this
problem....:)Same here! We do keep some instant coffee on hand for when we have guests, but normally it never comes up here.

[TheRabbi]

Instant coffee is dissolved so the kli shlishi wouldn't be neccessary. With the Turkish type coffee or tea, use the kli shlishi.

[A_Pioneer]

A "Good" stainless steel vaccum bottle will keep coffee hot for more than 12 hrs.
Make your coffee before sunset, just below the boiling point, pre-heat the bottle, drain and put fresh coffee in and seal! Steaming fresh coffee just as it was brewed.

Shabbat Shalom!

[A_Pioneer]

I chime in with the "Instant Coffee" crowd. I leave a pot of water on the shabbat stove.

I've never asked about it. It's possible that mixing the hot water with my coffee is cooking. I mean, think about all the things you could do "Instant" this way???? Instant Cup of Noodles. Instant Oatmeal.

Maybe its the difference between something merely being dissolved in the hot water, and actually changed? Food preparation is okay, cooking is not. Where is the line between them?

Because the flip side is, what is the difference in making instant coffee from adding syrup and making chocolate milk other than the temperature of the liquid?

And why do I bother trying to figure all this out, when I can just ASK?

Okay, Rabbi, I'm asking.

Sheesh, I don't know how the "bible only" crowd can manage this stuff.
The Rood folks have more halachah than you can shake a stick at! LOL

[Bananna]

Ok, so as stated in another thread, I have a deep and abiding love for all things coffee. I even eat the mud at the bottom of those little cups of greek coffee. I have in my home, and espresso maker, cappachino maker (these two are in combination) and a coffee maker.

So after several trials and errors (all errors) I have yet to come up with a way to make coffee that doesn't violate the laws of Shabbos. Last weekend it wasn't a big deal as I was back home to meet my new neice, and dad (who's goy) gets up at the ungodly early hour of 4 every single day so he made the coffee.

So anyways, I need help! Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Yochanan
Iced coffee or coffee smoothie you chill them or freeze them the day before.

JMO
bananna

[ChavaK]

I chime in with the "Instant Coffee" crowd. I leave a pot of water on the shabbat stove.

I've never asked about it. It's possible that mixing the hot water with my coffee is cooking.
That's why you have to make sure the cup is dry-
otherwise you are cooking the water droplets left
in the cup- and that you use a kli sheni or kli slishi
to mix the water and coffee. If you use a kli rishon
you are for sure cooking.....


Sheesh, I don't know how the "bible only" crowd can manage this stuff.
For the "bible only" crowd, all of this is optional
anyway....:)

[Bananna]

Blend on packet instant breakfast
one cup ice
one teaspoon fresh ground organic coffee.
One cup half and half or milk

pour in cup and freeze.

Take out early morning and let thaw. Or thaw in frige over night.
----------------
pour coffee, cream, sugar and flavor to taste in pitcher stir and refrigerate over night

I'm sure on line they will have detailed instructions.
bananna

[ChavaK]

Instant coffee is dissolved so the kli shlishi wouldn't be neccessary. With the Turkish type coffee or tea, use the kli shlishi.

Exactly, but there are those who use a kli shlishi
just because they a machmir in everything they do..:)

[LadyGarnetRose]

So, setting up the coffee pot with a programmable feature the day before is a no no?

[ChavaK]

Someone just mentioned to me about a new gizmo they
got that makes coffee essence-similar to tea essence-
and all you do is add hot water to it. She said it's kind
of a pain to use, but worth it to have good coffee on
shabbas. If you're interested, I will check into it for
you...

[ChavaK]

So, setting up the coffee pot with a programmable feature the day before is a no no?

Correct......

[LadyGarnetRose]

Correct......
I don't understand why.

Instant coffee, is not edible before adding hot water to it, so why would having the coffeepot do the work be a nono?

[Bananna]

What about slow cookers?
bananna

[Talmidah]

You can use slow cookers to keep things warm but not to cook them.

[LadyGarnetRose]

I don't understand why.

Instant coffee, is not edible before adding hot water to it, so why would having the coffeepot do the work be a nono?
I need to add to this.

If a goyem can make coffee and it be drank without issue.

Again, why is it wrong to have a machine cookit, if you are not stirring it, you are not grinding the coffee, you are not adding water to the machine, you don't even touch the buttons on Shabbas.

[TheRabbi]

Did you tell the goy to make the coffee?

[TheRabbi]

Did you tell the goy to make the coffee?

[Torah]

Ok, so as stated in another thread, I have a deep and abiding love for all things coffee. I even eat the mud at the bottom of those little cups of greek coffee. I have in my home, and espresso maker, cappachino maker (these two are in combination) and a coffee maker.

So after several trials and errors (all errors) I have yet to come up with a way to make coffee that doesn't violate the laws of Shabbos. Last weekend it wasn't a big deal as I was back home to meet my new neice, and dad (who's goy) gets up at the ungodly early hour of 4 every single day so he made the coffee.

So anyways, I need help! Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Yochanan
They make coffee pots with timers. Set it up just before Shabbat starts, set the timer. And wake up smelling coffee. There are also timers that plug into the wall then you plug your coffee pot into the timer. This works well with crock pots also.

[Talmidah]

I have heard that some authorities permit coffeemakers on timers, but I've never met any who do. On Shabbat, you either use instant coffee or coffee essence.

[Bananna]

I need to add to this.

If a goyem can make coffee and it be drank without issue.

Again, why is it wrong to have a machine cookit, if you are not stirring it, you are not grinding the coffee, you are not adding water to the machine, you don't even touch the buttons on Shabbas.
To me this would fall under the same ruling as if a stranger were hired to do book carrying or driving on the sabbath. If you feel your electronics are unbelievers that are not members of your household, then you may pre designate to do a service on the sabbath for you.

If you are like some that believe machines are servants in your household, you might not want to use them at all.

In which case... Back to the refrigerator coffee...
(no on seems to want cold coffee)

Bananna

[Maramixi]

(no on seems to want cold coffee)
Bananna
If you feel you shouldn't use the timer on your coffee maker but are picky about the quality of your coffee, this is the best opption.

I work at a coffee shop and I can tell you the only coffee that still tastes any good after being more than a few hours old is the iced coffee.

To make it, you brew it at double strength (half the water not twice the grounds) and then add ice to make it regular strength (the faster it cools the better it lasts) and then put in the fridge.

[A_Pioneer]

Repeat; A "Good" stainless steel vaccum bottle will keep coffee hot for more than 12 hrs.
Make your coffee before sunset, just below the boiling point, pre-heat the bottle, drain and put fresh coffee in and seal! Steaming fresh coffee just as it was brewed.

Problem solved! Unless drinking 12 hour old coffee is not kosher. It will be just as the Maan that did not go bad when a double portion was gathered on the preparation day.

[ChavaK]

I don't understand why.

Instant coffee, is not edible before adding hot water to it, so why would having the coffeepot do the work be a nono?

A couple of things come to mind....you are boiling water
on shabbas, which is a form of bishul. Even though it
is on a timer, you cannot cook on shabbas. Another
thought, the coffee and the water would be together
in the maker, essentialy making it a kli rishon...which
would again cause a problem with cooking. Also the
pot would be on an uncovered fire...
A thought I wondered about is how are coffee beans
cooked? Are they roasted? If so, that is a problem.
You "cannot cook that which has been cooked", but something that had been roasted (dry heat) would
now be subject to the laws of bishul if it is
cooked with hot water..
I actually have never made a cup of coffee in my
life, so I don't really know that much about what is
involved with it...

[LadyGarnetRose]

Banana hit a wonderful point.

Machines. Are not PEOPLE.

You are not asking another to perform a sin. You are not asking another to do your bidding.

IF it is ok to leave your home heater, hot water tank on, on shabbos, then it should be more than ok to set up a coffeepot with a timer.

[ChavaK]

Banana hit a wonderful point.

Machines. Are not PEOPLE.

You are not asking another to perform a sin. You are not asking another to do your bidding.

IF it is ok to leave your home heater, hot water tank on, on shabbos, then it should be more than ok to set up a coffeepot with a timer.

Yes you can leave your heat on in the house, but you
cannot adjust the thermostat. You can leave the hot
water tank on, but you cannot use the hot water.
With the coffee pot, you are boiling water which
is cooking and forbidden....even if it is on a timer.

:wave:

[ChavaK]

I have heard that some authorities permit coffeemakers on timers, but I've never met any who do.

I have never seen anyone in our community-nor
in any community that I have visited, for that
matter-who have used coffemakes with timers.
I did see one rabbi online who was answering
halachic questions, and said they were fine.
But he was giving all kinds of nutty advice
(definitely against standard halachah), so
I don't think I would have to much trust in
his answers....;)

[Henaynei]

Someone just mentioned to me about a new gizmo they
got that makes coffee essence-similar to tea essence-
and all you do is add hot water to it. She said it's kind
of a pain to use, but worth it to have good coffee on
shabbas. If you're interested, I will check into it for
you...I'm interested ... my dh is lost without his coffee andhe considers instant inedible

here's something I just found - making the coffee essence without the fancy gizmo....

Add 10 to 11 cups of cold water to one pound of medium grind coffee, let it sit on the counter for about 11 hours, then strain. It can be stored in the refrigerator for two weeks after straining. This produces a very smooth and rich concentrate with little or no acid. Proceed as allowed for Shabbat enjoyment.

during the week you can....(Add a generous amount of steamed milk for cappuccino, hot or cold water for hot or iced coffee (I like to make coffee ice cubes so my coffee doesn’t get watered down). Add to homemade fudge sauce, hot cocoa, or freeze it for a coffee granita.)

[LadyGarnetRose]

You can set a timer, to do a proscribed action on Shabbos.

Essentially, since it has become common practice to use timers, there is no appearance of impropriety when timers are used. This approach has been accepted by most contemporary decisors such as Rabbi Waldenberg, Rabbi Breisch, Rabbi Henkin, Rabbi Auerbach, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the Chazon Ish, Maharam Schick and many others

[Talmidah]

The site from which that quote came does not address the issue of coffee makers and does reiterate that bishul is prohibited, whether on timers or not. It is only addressing the use of electricity.

What it comes down to is the fact that each person needs to consult their local orthodox rabbi and find out if it is allowed. Chava and I have both been taught that it is not allowed and neither of us know anybody who holds that using coffeemaker timers on Shabbat is allowed. Perhaps some authorities allow it, but you guys each need to ask your own orthodox rabbi.

[ChavaK]

You can set a timer, to do a proscribed action on Shabbos.

It all depends on what the timer is set for....

[HadassahSukkot]

I'm interested ... my dh is lost without his coffee andhe considers instant inedible

here's something I just found - making the coffee essence without the fancy gizmo....

Add 10 to 11 cups of cold water to one pound of medium grind coffee, let it sit on the counter for about 11 hours, then strain. It can be stored in the refrigerator for two weeks after straining. This produces a very smooth and rich concentrate with little or no acid. Proceed as allowed for Shabbat enjoyment.

during the week you can....(Add a generous amount of steamed milk for cappuccino, hot or cold water for hot or iced coffee (I like to make coffee ice cubes so my coffee doesn’t get watered down). Add to homemade fudge sauce, hot cocoa, or freeze it for a coffee granita.)
Question, does he like Frappuccinos? Like Starbucks etc?

You can make those from home (kosher) and store them in the fridge and drink cold about the same way you're talking about making the essence. Just a thought. I know some folks don't like them, (me incl) and some folks do (brother and dad)

I have never seen anyone in our community-nor
in any community that I have visited, for that
matter-who have used coffemakes with timers.
I did see one rabbi online who was answering
halachic questions, and said they were fine.
But he was giving all kinds of nutty advice
(definitely against standard halachah), so
I don't think I would have to much trust in
his answers....;)

The site from which that quote came does not address the issue of coffee makers and does reiterate that bishul is prohibited, whether on timers or not. It is only addressing the use of electricity.

What it comes down to is the fact that each person needs to consult their local orthodox rabbi and find out if it is allowed. Chava and I have both been taught that it is not allowed and neither of us know anybody who holds that using coffeemaker timers on Shabbat is allowed. Perhaps some authorities allow it, but you guys each need to ask your own orthodox rabbi.


Agreed, this was the same course of action agreed upon in our Messianic Schul, though it was obvious not everyone was on the same page.. :sorry:

[ChazakEmunah]

Wow, I'm glad I'm mostly an iced coffee drinker.

[ChavaK]

Wow, I'm glad I'm mostly an iced coffee drinker.

And I don't even drink coffee ( can't stand the stuff),
but you still have to know the halachah...for having such things as shabbas guests.Fortunately all of ours have been only tea drinkers..:)

[HadassahSukkot]

hehe, most of mine take water or sweet tea, which is oft refridgerated so no biggie on that one either, but I do agree, it's always good to know just in case so you aren't running in a room last minute going 'noooooooooooooooo!' or something similar in slow motion....

[ChazakEmunah]

And I don't even drink coffee ( can't stand the stuff),
but you still have to know the halachah...for having such things as shabbas guests.Fortunately all of ours have been only tea drinkers..:)
Well we haven't had Shabbos guests yet, so I guess I really don't have to worry about that for now. I think the fact that we live about 4 miles away may be a factor in this... ;)

[Torah613]

I'm interested ... my dh is lost without his coffee andhe considers instant inedible

here's something I just found - making the coffee essence without the fancy gizmo....

Add 10 to 11 cups of cold water to one pound of medium grind coffee, let it sit on the counter for about 11 hours, then strain. It can be stored in the refrigerator for two weeks after straining. This produces a very smooth and rich concentrate with little or no acid. Proceed as allowed for Shabbat enjoyment.

during the week you can....(Add a generous amount of steamed milk for cappuccino, hot or cold water for hot or iced coffee (I like to make coffee ice cubes so my coffee doesn’t get watered down). Add to homemade fudge sauce, hot cocoa, or freeze it for a coffee granita.)
In the colonies this is called slowbrewed espresso.

I agree. Instant coffee is one of hte great mortal sins of humanity to use a rc aphorism.

Yochanan

[Henaynei]

LOL :thumbsup:

[visionary]

What about these? http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetdepot/subcategory.asp?link={6ACFF94C-AA6A-469D-B5FB-F9BAD3428812}&categoryid=1&categoryname=Kitchen&subcategoryid=11&subcategoryname=Hot%20Water%20Dispensers

They dispense hot water on demand. Do we turn on hot water tap during shabbat?

[ChavaK]

What about these? http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetdepot/subcategory.asp?link={6ACFF94C-AA6A-469D-B5FB-F9BAD3428812}&categoryid=1&categoryname=Kitchen&subcategoryid=11&subcategoryname=Hot%20Water%20Dispensers
I don't know how those work, but if they dispense hot
water on demand, they must be heating it which is
forbidden.

Do we turn on hot water tap during shabbat?

No, you cannot use the hot water tap on shabbas.....

[Talmidah]

Do we turn on hot water tap during shabbat?No.