how do you get out of the Orthodox Church?

[exquirer]

I am in the Orthodox Church and a convert, but I seriously want to get out. Not because I don't believe it is the Church, because it is. Also, not because I don't believe in all things of the Creed - I really do believe them.

I love everyone in the Church, but I can't stand the fact that there are so many bigshot Democrats who think killing Babies and Embryonic stem cell research is fine. I do love those people, but I really can't stand being around those attitudes and opinions.

seriously,

--exquirer

[Silentchapel]

Based on your post, it seems you're out already.
Roman Catholic Traditionalists would be perfect for you.

[Zealous Zeth]

revoco

[Silentchapel]

Whoat??? I don't think there are any church that is more conservative and absolute on these things. Have you asked your Bishop if they support murder or evil science?

The Roman Catholic Church can take care of you very well, but why leave the ORIGINAL CHURCH?
Something I've learned from MA is that if someone wants to 'get out' - it is far better for that person to at least remain as close as possible to Orthodoxy. I thought I'd never see the day I'd want MA to be a Mormon, but I've have. :)
Exquirer - why do you base your faith on democrats? This is precisely what idoltary is - you want to get out of the true Church because of what? Her members? Everyone wants to be surrounded by Saints, but it is time for wake up call - we are not in Heaven as of yet and we don't always have Saints around us. Some of people around us are fallible, bad, evil or plainly diabolic. Is is our duty as Christians to testify to these people, not run and hide with people who have identical opinion as we do.
Christ was very clear on what should people who despise children do, and He will deal with slaughtered children and their slaughterers.

[nutroll]

I don't know where you are going to church, but at my church, I'm hard pressed to find a republican who doesn't mind raising the minimum wage, much less a "bigshot democrat" who is in favor of abortion. But regardless of that, since when has God officially endorsed a political party? How is politics going to get any of us to heaven? I don't know what the specific problem is that you are having, but rather than leaving the Orthodox Church, why not find a more politically conservative Orthodox Church, or better yet, learn to focus on where you fall short rather than judging others when they do, that way you can attend any church and it won't matter what they say.

[exquirer]

Something I've learned from MA is that if someone wants to 'get out' - it is far better for that person to at least remain as close as possible to Orthodoxy. I thought I'd never see the day I'd want MA to be a Mormon, but I've have. :)
Exquirer - why do you base your faith on democrats? This is precisely what idoltary is - you want to get out of the true Church because of what? Her members? Everyone wants to be surrounded by Saints, but it is time for wake up call - we are not in Heaven as of yet and we don't always have Saints around us. Some of people around us are fallible, bad, evil or plainly diabolic. Is is our duty as Christians to testify to these people, not run and hide with people who have identical opinion as we do.
Christ was very clear on what should people who despise children do, and He will deal with slaughtered children and their slaughterers.
those who stand idly by and do nothing are held liable too - I really can't say anything more powerful than Via con dios. I am like a deer in the headlights when confronted with that sort of thing.

The thing is that 'judging a tree by its fruits', I see allot of protestants who diligently work hard for the poor, do the work Christ called them to do - and it makes me wonder if an expression of Christianity that is orthodox in practice is far more important than an orthodoxy in outward worship.

Basically, I have found myself having to confess sins I hadn't touched in 20 years since this sort of thinking has started gripping me, and I wonder if it is indicative of the thinking or the pulling away from something that has the form of religion but denies the power of it.

The thing that intrigues me about Orthodox history, distant and recent, is how many of the Saints were persecuted by the Church itself. It seems indicative of an inherent problem. St. Nektarios, St. John Chrysostom, St. John Maximovich all seemed to be hounded unmercifully by their own. Even St. Cyril went after St. John. Its telling.

And while I understand the right anathemas against supposed Origen's teaching, why would they go after the man centuries after he was dead? Even the Pharisees gave Jesus a trial where He could answer their "charges."

I really perceive that Matthew Chapter 23, which was my biggest impediment to getting into Orthodoxy in the first place, is applicable in our Orthodox history.

Its those things that really bug me about the Church - I see it as the Church - but not exclusively the Church. It can't be - it just doesn't seem to love enough.

There is a difference between saying the Orthodox Church is the true Church, and saying the Orthodox Church is exclusively the true Church. St. John Maximovitch supposedly would cross himself when he passed by a Roman Church.

Maybe you have to pull away from something to see the value in it.

[exquirer]

I don't know where you are going to church, but at my church, I'm hard pressed to find a republican who doesn't mind raising the minimum wage, much less a "bigshot democrat" who is in favor of abortion. But regardless of that, since when has God officially endorsed a political party? How is politics going to get any of us to heaven? I don't know what the specific problem is that you are having, but rather than leaving the Orthodox Church, why not find a more politically conservative Orthodox Church, or better yet, learn to focus on where you fall short rather than judging others when they do, that way you can attend any church and it won't matter what they say.
Good points. On the other hand, I wouldn't go to a Church where the people dressed in white sheets and burned crosses in the wee hours either. They wore Constantine's symbols on their breasts - the Chi-Rho and the cross.

So what is the difference when people actively work for those who slaughter 3,500 a day in America, 43,000,000 world wide in a year?

Like Joe Stalin supposedly said, 'a murder is a tragedy, a million is a statistic'

[authiodionitist]

Are you saying we're not involved in the public polity enough? I recommend becoming familiar with His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman, especially on the Life issue. Right now I'm going to a Pro-Life Rally that's going on 24-hours for 20 more days (It's called 40 Days for Life), with the Metropolitan's blessing and other Orthodox Christians.

Read His Beatitude's archpastoral letter for 2007 here:
http://www.oca.org/Docs.asp?ID=175&SID=12

[Silentchapel]

The thing is that 'judging a tree by its fruits', I see allot of protestants who diligently work hard for the poor, do the work Christ called them to do - and it makes me wonder if an expression of Christianity that is orthodox in practice is far more important than an orthodoxy in outward worship.
Let us put things into perspective here. Things is, you need orthodox practice AND orthodox worship. You can say you judge trees by its fruits, but the truth is, you're partial. No one says their work with poor and involvement is a bad thing, but you forget the other side of the medal: bad doctrine. You can have an Orthodox with good doctrine and bad practice, you can have a Protestant with good practice and bad doctrine, but you can never have a Protestant with good doctrine AND good practice. Also, you should also remember how few Orthodox there are in the US.

The thing that intrigues me about Orthodox history, distant and recent, is how many of the Saints were persecuted by the Church itself. It seems indicative of an inherent problem. St. Nektarios, St. John Chrysostom, St. John Maximovich all seemed to be hounded unmercifully by their own. Even St. Cyril went after St. John. Its telling.
That is because if all these people were Protestant they would simply form their own congregations. And being 'hounded unmercifully' is an exception, not a rule.

And while I understand the right anathemas against supposed Origen's teaching, why would they go after the man centuries after he was dead? Even the Pharisees gave Jesus a trial where He could answer their "charges."
So Hitler is 'assumed innocent' since he never was at the trial?

I really perceive that Matthew Chapter 23, which was my biggest impediment to getting into Orthodoxy in the first place, is applicable in our Orthodox history.
Power corrupts. And accusing all Bishops of 'Matther 23' is pretty false. There are tons upon tons of reallygreat Bishops outthere.

Its those things that really bug me about the Church - I see it as the Church - but not exclusively the Church. It can't be - it just doesn't seem to love enough.
Based on...?

There is a difference between saying the Orthodox Church is the true Church, and saying the Orthodox Church is exclusively the true Church. St. John Maximovitch supposedly would cross himself when he passed by a Roman Church.
St. John also isn't our universal pontiff who decides on faith and morals.

[Protoevangel]

I'm sorry that you would leave Christ Himself because of an imperfect follower of His.

[buzuxi02]

I am in the Orthodox Church and a convert, but I seriously want to get out. Not because I don't believe it is the Church, because it is. Also, not because I don't believe in all things of the Creed - I really do believe them.

I love everyone in the Church, but I can't stand the fact that there are so many bigshot Democrats who think killing Babies and Embryonic stem cell research is fine. I do love those people, but I really can't stand being around those attitudes and opinions.

seriously,

--exquirer
I dont understand, you would leave the Church because democrats support embryonic stem cell research?

Whatever happens in the political realm dealing with ethical issues simply is a reflection of the country. Why is there abortion? Because the majority of people want it, and this majority are protestants. Protestants make up the bulk of both parties, whether conservative or liberal. And protestants make up the majority of the population.

Neither Orthodoxy nor RCC are liberal, ALL liberal churches are protestant.

Now if you want to leave the church and join protestantism, you will simply pit yourself against another protestant. Its not hindus or chinese or muslims getting abortions its mostly protestants. It is the bible belt which has the highest number of abortions and out of wedlock mothers. Thats a fact.

[Philothei]

How come you cannot leave that parish or even the Juristiction and go to another one? Many times it just happens for a certain parish to be more "liberal" and another more "conservative" even within the same Juristiction.....

Just a thought

God bless,
Philothei

[Thekla]

In my experience, there is always a "thorn in our side", wherever we go.
Although I think it may sometimes important to change jurisdictions or parishes, I also think a great deal of self-inspection is important first.
Its not that I disagree with your concerns, and I have no way of evaluating any of this. But it is a "rule" in our home that<< if you are upset by someone else's actions, you should first inspect yourself for the same 'sin' even in its different form>> so this is just "Mom speak" :)

Having done this, and talked to your spiritual father, you can be more comfortable, hopefully, in any decision you make.

[fuerein]

The thing is that 'judging a tree by its fruits', I see allot of protestants who diligently work hard for the poor, do the work Christ called them to do - and it makes me wonder if an expression of Christianity that is orthodox in practice is far more important than an orthodoxy in outward worship.


You honestly think that as a whole protestants are necessarily better? I've known plenty of protestants who were of the "one must pull themselves up by their bootstraps" mentality, which leaves little room for actually helping the poor. I've come across plenty of protestants that argue that while abortion is not right we should still keep it legal because they want to keep American "freedoms". Hate to break it to ya, but in any group you will quickly find people who do not necessarily hold to the party line that you believe should be espoused by the group.

[exquirer]

Let us put things into perspective here. Things is, you need orthodox practice AND orthodox worship. You can say you judge trees by its fruits, but the truth is, you're partial. No one says their work with poor and involvement is a bad thing, but you forget the other side of the medal: bad doctrine. You can have an Orthodox with good doctrine and bad practice, you can have a Protestant with good practice and bad doctrine, but you can never have a Protestant with good doctrine AND good practice. Also, you should also remember how few Orthodox there are in the US.


That is because if all these people were Protestant they would simply form their own congregations. And being 'hounded unmercifully' is an exception, not a rule.


So Hitler is 'assumed innocent' since he never was at the trial?


Power corrupts. And accusing all Bishops of 'Matther 23' is pretty false. There are tons upon tons of reallygreat Bishops outthere.


Based on...?


St. John also isn't our universal pontiff who decides on faith and morals.
On your first point, Dr. George Washington Carver practiced continuous prayer, claimed to speak directly with God in prayer and seemed to prove it through marvelous inventions which he selflessly gave away. He was a man of deep faith in Jesus Christ, and he was lambasted in the press when he told people how he really invented all the marvelous things he invented.

There wasn't an "Orthodox" Church within a hundred miles of him.

And then there are all those Roman saints who really are saints - whether its Mother Theresea or St. Germain Cousin or St. Francis of Assisi. There are plenty of genuine Roman and Protestant saints.

You didn't see Orthodox braving the depths of Africa to heal diseases and spread the Gospel, but Dr. Livingston was there.

And as to Origen, the man died a martyr for Christ, and St. Gregory of Nyssa was very fond of his writing and thinking. But he wasn't around to defend him. Just because somebody makes mistakes doesn't mean they should be thrown out. And St. John Chrysostom supposedly hid two Origenist monks - showing Christian compassion.

But if they should be cast out, well then, that's my point. Conspiring with those who kill babies seems allot worse than getting some things wrong in dogma, Greek words and philosophy and logic. Who cares? Jesus Christ is Lord.

And when it comes to getting things wrong, I can't think of a worse error than denying specific, emphatic words of Christ - and St. Athanasius, St. Gregory, St. Basil, and St. John Chrysostom all did so when they claimed that Christ must have known the hour when he "Verily Verily" said only the Father knew. And that is reported in two Gospels, and all the Icons in Orthodox Churches (fulfilling Psalm 44 LXX, Psalm 45 KJV) point out through the hand of Luke that it is possible to have knowledge without knowing it (the scroll is sealed in the Lord's hand - and only the Lamb is worthy to unseal the scroll at the proper time).

No - I think there are plenty of errors to go around. Serious ones. Calling people Father and Master outside of a strict liturgical context is huge one given Mathew 23, and based on the conduct of Bishops and Archbishops now and through the ages, the error is all the more apparent.

Anyone with intimate knowledge of Holy Scripture knows the Orthodox Church has problems - and these were all foretold.

If you join the Orthodox Church as a convert, and your serious about researching the Church fathers and the Bible, beware, you might have to turn off your brain.

-- exquirer

[exquirer]

How come you cannot leave that parish or even the Juristiction and go to another one? Many times it just happens for a certain parish to be more "liberal" and another more "conservative" even within the same Juristiction.....

Just a thought

God bless,
Philothei
Very food points and something genuinely worth considering.

But once I started down this dark path of thought and prayer, Orthodoxy began to loose allot of appeal rapidly.

This could all be due to my sinfulness, and I am more inclined to think that way. But I see so many inconsistencies and falsehoods in Orthodox history and practice, and while they are forgivable, how is it Orthodox don't seek to forgive others - but rather snidely assume we are the way the truth the life? Last time I checked, the Way, Truth and Life was Christ - and there are many Christians who act like Christians, pray like Christians outside the Orthodox Church.

And there are plenty of none Christians in the Orthodox Church - some of whom are running things.

St. Seraphim of Viritsa seemed to go through something like this toward the end of his life, and his advice was to remain in the Orthodox Church - and I suppose I'll stick around for that reason alone because he seems a trustworthy Saint.

But if we cannot give voice to these doubts as Orthodox, who are we kidding?

-- exquirer

[exquirer]

You honestly think that as a whole protestants are necessarily better? I've known plenty of protestants who were of the "one must pull themselves up by their bootstraps" mentality, which leaves little room for actually helping the poor. I've come across plenty of protestants that argue that while abortion is not right we should still keep it legal because they want to keep American "freedoms". Hate to break it to ya, but in any group you will quickly find people who do not necessarily hold to the party line that you believe should be espoused by the group.
Very good points and very true.

And I have to confess allot of arrogance, pride and anger. But the more I pray, the more I see, the more I see, the more I don't want to see.

I have tried a practice which helps in Church, of "cleaning hands" by lighting a candle for all those I sinned against, and one for all those who sin against me.

That makes Worship peaceful enough while in Church. But when I am in the world.....

Oh well, the Bishops sit in Moses seat - just do what they say.

[exquirer]

I dont understand, you would leave the Church because democrats support embryonic stem cell research?

Whatever happens in the political realm dealing with ethical issues simply is a reflection of the country. Why is there abortion? Because the majority of people want it, and this majority are protestants. Protestants make up the bulk of both parties, whether conservative or liberal. And protestants make up the majority of the population.

Neither Orthodoxy nor RCC are liberal, ALL liberal churches are protestant.

Now if you want to leave the church and join protestantism, you will simply pit yourself against another protestant. Its not hindus or chinese or muslims getting abortions its mostly protestants. It is the bible belt which has the highest number of abortions and out of wedlock mothers. Thats a fact.
Sorry but the Church I go to, which is Antiochian, has some local Democratic party big wigs. And young gentlemen I have spoken to all seem to support these wicked things.

The Greeks have "honored" Senator Sarbanes for example, and there is no discipline placed on wayward politicians, just the opposite, it seems their favor is courted.

Recently, Metropolitan Phillip wrote a letter stating that our youth should not support the march in Washington concerning abortion, because he felt it would not change the minds of our politicians. Pictures of him smiling with those same politicians makes it plain to me where he is coming from.

The whole Antiochian jurisdiction is very liberal politically, and frankly, I don't fit in, I don't want to say anything because it will only come out badly, and the whole experience causes me to seriously examine where I am in Church and what I am doing - or not doing. The irony of it is also, I am not a big supporter of the Republicans, but am non-affiliated. I really hate this war mentality that the Republicans seem to foster. But with respect to Democrats, sleeping with the enemy of human kind gives me the creeps. I don't want to be on the same planet with that sort, let alone the same Church.

If I could get passed the Pope thing, the altar boy scandals, the lack of Church discipline -- I'd be Roman in a New York millisecond ???? OK - I get it....

-- exquirer

[Lukaris]

Why do you not make your self an example of true Orthodoxy? Send money to IOCC www.iocc.org (http://www.iocc.org) (if you already do then great) check out Orthodox missions www.ocmc.org (http://www.ocmc.org) . As far as Protestants & Roman Catholics, many are true godly Christians (in theological unsound communions) & some are not as are Orthodox. You can still help & work alongside other Christians doing the work of Christ; for example, look for church run free medical clinics & send donations or see if volunteers are needed in some way. What about church run soup kitchens? As far as other churches being faulty, did you know that Martin Luther was an anti-semite? Protestant
(mostly) American pioneers ethnically cleansed the frontier of Native Americans, the corruption of the Episcopalian church, in the Roman Catholic church there are Jesuits who embrace things like Hinduism but still reject St Gregory Palamas, corruption in the priesthood etc. If you are in an unbearable, corrupt, & isolated parish then you may need to leave IT but do not leave Orthodoxy. Obtain a Typika, perhaps even attend another church (with caution) for some fellowship but remain in the narrow gate. Try to find a distant Orthodox church & attend every once in a while (I am an ignorant of your circumstances of course). Just my rambling 2 cents. PS: want to read a long article (20 pages?) that tests the bounds of commitment to Orthodoxy? Try types of Religious lives by St. Mother Maria Skobtsova (martyred by the Nazis in 1944) http://www.tuirgin.com/orthodoxy/articles/types_of_religious_lives.html

[exquirer]

I'm sorry that you would leave Christ Himself because of an imperfect follower of His.
That simply is not of the truth - I am not considering leaving Christ Himself, I have considered leaving what may be "a" church rather than "the" church because "they" ("we"?) assume they (we) are Christ Himself; not the bride but the groom. And it is the parable of the wise virgins and not the wise virgin. And Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God.

Did you ever notice that in the Old Testament, Israel split in two - North and South, and the Church split East and West? Like a cross. And the North further dispersed forming Samaria. And Rome dispersed forming the Protestant diaspora.

Now what is the parable about - the good Judean, the good Irsraeli - no, its the good Samaritan. And the Samaritans made allot of Protestants look sane when it came to worship. Maybe Orthodoxy is closer to Pharisism than to Samaritanism - maybe it is closer to Herodian baby killers for a dark reason.

Its worth thinking long and hard about, and anyone enquiring should do so. There is after all the duck test (if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck - its a duck).

Our Bishops with their Turkish hats, long flowing robes, loving the chief seats, master, father..... they sure play the pharisee duck part rather well. Surely the Word of the Lord is true, the generation has not passed away.

There is a strong part of me that simply cannot drop judging a tree by its fruits, and I see allot of bad Orthodox fruit lately.

-- exquirer.

[Philothei]

I see the problem now.... You are looking at the whole "religious experience" as a black and white ... No religion is totally "clean" the puritans tried it to "clean" the demons from within and ended up with the witch trials..... I like what Lukaris said. All churches have "dirty laundry" and history that not so good to mention. This is human fallen nature to me no one is more pure and dandy than the next guy.

I do not know and do not care so much about politics since politics are going to give me salvation Christ will. If I had Sarbanes in my congregation I would be nice to him.... Christ went to Matthew's house to wintness why not wittness to Sarbanes? He is a politician that is his job I know it conflicts with what our Church believes but rather than condemn him I say let God judge him He is the only ultimate judge. Let us keep him in our prayers that he might see the truth. I pray also for other ethical issues that are misrepresented in our Goven't here and in other places in this world... for discrimination in general etc.

Christians prayed for their enemies and the ones who were sinning for the beginning... we are not to judge rather to pray, they prayed that the Roman soldiers will not catch them to kill them... that was a matter of life and death...still they prayed and many of those Roman soldiers converted because of the martyrs' faith and prayers. They did not retaliate or fight them back even.

Then again it is up to you. I personally stay away from politics since it is so divisive and it has no place in the life of the Church.

God bless,
Philothei

[Thekla]

That simply is not of the truth - I am not considering leaving Christ Himself, I have considered leaving what may be "a" church rather than "the" church because "they" ("we"?) assume they (we) are Christ Himself; not the bride but the groom. And it is the parable of the wise virgins and not the wise virgin. And Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God.

Did you ever notice that in the Old Testament, Israel split in two - North and South, and the Church split East and West? Like a cross. And the North further dispersed forming Samaria. And Rome dispersed forming the Protestant diaspora.

Now what is the parable about - the good Judean, the good Irsraeli - no, its the good Samaritan. And the Samaritans made allot of Protestants look sane when it came to worship. Maybe Orthodoxy is closer to Pharisism than to Samaritanism - maybe it is closer to Herodian baby killers for a dark reason.

Its worth thinking long and hard about, and anyone enquiring should do so. There is after all the duck test (if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck - its a duck).

Our Bishops with their Turkish hats, long flowing robes, loving the chief seats, master, father..... they sure play the pharisee duck part rather well. Surely the Word of the Lord is true, the generation has not passed away.

There is a strong part of me that simply cannot drop judging a tree by its fruits, and I see allot of bad Orthodox fruit lately.

-- exquirer.

Maybe its just my age, but the world seems quite full of "bad ducks" these days. In my experience and conversation, most Orthodox stand against abortion and ESSR. And in all instances, we are called to love each other -- even sinners. :) The duck test is great for waterfowl, but to truly know a human, much more is required.

[exquirer]

Maybe its just my age, but the world seems quite full of "bad ducks" these days. In my experience and conversation, most Orthodox stand against abortion and ESSR. And in all instances, we are called to love each other -- even sinners. :) The duck test is great for waterfowl, but to truly know a human, much more is required.
Very good points. Thank you.

[exquirer]

I see the problem now.... You are looking at the whole "religious experience" as a black and white ... No religion is totally "clean" the puritans tried it to "clean" the demons from within and ended up with the witch trials..... I like what Lukaris said. All churches have "dirty laundry" and history that not so good to mention. This is human fallen nature to me no one is more pure and dandy than the next guy.

I do not know and do not care so much about politics since politics are going to give me salvation Christ will. If I had Sarbanes in my congregation I would be nice to him.... Christ went to Matthew's house to wintness why not wittness to Sarbanes? He is a politician that is his job I know it conflicts with what our Church believes but rather than condemn him I say let God judge him He is the only ultimate judge. Let us keep him in our prayers that he might see the truth. I pray also for other ethical issues that are misrepresented in our Goven't here and in other places in this world... for discrimination in general etc.

Christians prayed for their enemies and the ones who were sinning for the beginning... we are not to judge rather to pray, they prayed that the Roman soldiers will not catch them to kill them... that was a matter of life and death...still they prayed and many of those Roman soldiers converted because of the martyrs' faith and prayers. They did not retaliate or fight them back even.

Then again it is up to you. I personally stay away from politics since it is so divisive and it has no place in the life of the Church.

God bless,
Philothei
I guess your making my point in a way; in that we cannot see ourselves as "the" exclusive church and be honest about our history and our experience in Christ.

We need some sort of understanding with the Protestants and Romans that does not begin with "heretic". We do have enough dirty laudry, and maybe its time to air it out.

-- exquirer.

[Philothei]

If you join the Orthodox Church as a convert, and your serious about researching the Church fathers and the Bible, beware, you might have to turn off your brain.


Why turn it off? Maybe turn off your missconseption abou the church rather.... We are members of one body in Christ. We are not here to play policeman... who has done what and when.... Orthodoxy is concerned with the individual and his/her salvation. Instead of turning your brain off I think you should open first your heart and let Christ in your life. If what you see is not what you like why you do not become the example then... many times it just takes one person to spark the fire....instead of expecting others to change why you do not set your foot forward and do it. I personally think that the Antiochean Arch. has done many many good things and bears much fruit.... judging from the number of mission churches that have sprout around. I see much philanthropy and much education going on too and an enormous outreach... Sorry I cannot see how you see the opposite...


There is a strong part of me that simply cannot drop judging a tree by its fruits, and I see allot of bad Orthodox fruit lately

That is your own perception because maybe you are not looking where you should be looking....Visit some other churches and talk to the people from the Antiochean ARc. here and they will tell you were to look. There is bad fruit everywhere not only Orthodox you said it yourself.
Hope and pray you find what you are looking for.

God bless,
Philothei

[exquirer]

Dear Lukaris,

You might be suprised at how little I make, how little I have given, and how large that was considered by IOCC that they gave me a personal call thanking me for my "large" donation. Obviously people are not giving very much to these organizations in proportion to their income, because by protestant standards it was a fairly average sort of amount.

If you can afford a few hundred a month for a stupid car, you better be plunking down that amount to IOCC, OCMC, and a few monestaries spreading your bread upon the water - because while you can't buy your way into heaven, your a fool if you don't try.

Win friends with unrighteous money.

-- exquirer

[Thekla]

Dear Lukaris,

You might be suprised at how little I make, how little I have given, and how large that was considered by IOCC that they gave me a personal call thanking me for my "large" donation. Obviously people are not giving very much to these organizations in proportion to their income, because by protestant standards it was a fairly average sort of amount.

If you can afford a few hundred a month for a stupid car, you better be plunking down that amount to IOCC, OCMC, and a few monestaries spreading your bread upon the water - because while you can't buy your way into heaven, your a fool if you don't try.

Win friends with unrighteous money.

-- exquirer
or maybe, like all "healthy charities", the IOCC truly appreciate whatever is given !

[Orthosdoxa]

Did you pop up here recently under a different name? Please be honest. I have my suspicions about who this is.

The whole Antiochian jurisdiction is very liberal politically

I think the reason you're thinking of leaving is because the log in your own eye is so enormous you can't see the forest for the trees. You're so busy looking for sins in others that you're not seeing the one you're propagating - schism - here.

And FTR, there is thread here with 7 or 8 pages that I, a dirty Antiochian started, begging for prayers for a woman I know that is aborting one of her triplets. Dozens and dozens of people here praying she'd not do it, many - *gasp*! - Antiochians like myself. I have been under the jurisidiction of both Bishop Basil - and if you think he's liberal, then you're not a very smart guy - and Bishop Joseph, and if you think HE'S liberal then... well, you're crazy.

There are some idiot Orthodox out there, to be sure. Jesus said the path to life is narrow and few are the way who find it - even in His own Church. But the Church clearly teaches against abortion and ESSR. If you're going to judge others as bad apples and let them chase you out of His Church, then I don't even know what to say.

[Lukaris]

Dear Lukaris,

You might be suprised at how little I make, how little I have given, and how large that was considered by IOCC that they gave me a personal call thanking me for my "large" donation. Obviously people are not giving very much to these organizations in proportion to their income, because by protestant standards it was a fairly average sort of amount.

If you can afford a few hundred a month for a stupid car, you better be plunking down that amount to IOCC, OCMC, and a few monestaries spreading your bread upon the water - because while you can't buy your way into heaven, your a fool if you don't try.

Win friends with unrighteous money.

-- exquirer
I hope I was not inferring anything accusatory in my post. It was only my intention to cite examples as helpful options and maybe you already are contending for the faith more than you may realize. Forgive me if I have offended, a sinner. PS,I am blessed to drive a reliable clunker of an "R" title car.

[exquirer]

If you join the Orthodox Church as a convert, and your serious about researching the Church fathers and the Bible, beware, you might have to turn off your brain.


Why turn it off? Maybe turn off your missconseption abou the church rather.... We are members of one body in Christ. We are not here to play policeman... who has done what and when.... Orthodoxy is concerned with the individual and his/her salvation. Instead of turning your brain off I think you should open first your heart and let Christ in your life. If what you see is not what you like why you do not become the example then... many times it just takes one person to spark the fire....instead of expecting others to change why you do not set your foot forward and do it. I personally think that the Antiochean Arch. has done many many good things and bears much fruit.... judging from the number of mission churches that have sprout around. I see much philanthropy and much education going on too and an enormous outreach... Sorry I cannot see how you see the opposite...


There is a strong part of me that simply cannot drop judging a tree by its fruits, and I see allot of bad Orthodox fruit lately

That is your own perception because maybe you are not looking where you should be looking....Visit some other churches and talk to the people from the Antiochean ARc. here and they will tell you were to look. There is bad fruit everywhere not only Orthodox you said it yourself.
Hope and pray you find what you are looking for.

God bless,
Philothei
As to turning off the brain, simply because your going to see allot of inconsistencies - and the standard answer is check the fathers. But sometimes the fathers are seriously in error. The universe was created in six liturgical days, but not six chronological ones for example - do I have to really believe St. Basil and St. Ephraim and St. John Damascus etc..... who tell me to read Genesis creation literally in terms of chronological hours? I know for a fact the universe is of old, even Scripture informs us of this. They screwed up. Its reality, so what?

At some point you are going to deviate from the fathers, and then all of a sudden, your going to start questioning allot of things.

I can make the fathers right in those respects by remembering II Peter (Psalm 90), 'a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day'... and I can understand their emphasis on literal reading to fit in with a liturgical experience of eons that are endless - which as man we can only experience in terms of hours.

But really were they inspired when they commented on those Scriptures, or were they just plain sloppy? They insisted on a real 24 hour 6-day week. Come on, by Scripture and by observation of reality they were flat wrong.

And if they made such errors, why do we tolerate some errors and not others? The Orthodox Church seems to be a club and have a club mentality. St. Gregory of Nyssa taught the anathema "universal salvation." He wasn't kicked out, and a later Saint basically had to lie and juggle and contort to keep St. Gregory of Nyssa from the flames. At some point, the house of cards falls.

Protestants would call it a "cult" - and they would be wrong to do so - but only half wrong. There are some people like so they are in, and others who aren't in and for reasons that seem arbitrary and capricious.

But maybe the time is coming that people should seriously question many of these things, and start seriously discussing them. God put us on a planet which is remarkable in that it is perfect for scientific observations (the moon for example, provides perfect eclipses in terms of its size and distance to confirm relativity theory). These things are not coincidence - God called the wise men (scientists) as well as the shepherds (Chrysostom called them scientists).

In many ways, the fathers made serious errors, perhaps even about Christology. After all, if the Truth Incarnate lied about the hour to shut up His disciples, then He is not meek and lowly. But God has to practice the virtue of patience, of faith, of not knowing - to be fully God.

I could make a St. Maximos argument that St. Athanasius false teaching should be held anathema because it attacks the very nature of the Eternally Begotten Son, the veracity of Truth of the Gospels, and the Omnipotence of God (God cannot be all-knowing if He cannot experience not knowing something - hence the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and He and the Father are One).

Of course St. Athanasius is a Saint, by why should Origen get kicked out for screwing up, and the Coptics for messing up a stupid Greek verb, and we tolerate our great fathers who directly contradicted Holy Scripture, the Holy Gospels, and ancient teachings? Check with the Holy Spirit, pray about this.

And those things are easily found in prayer - and when you find the Fathers are wrong about those things, and you look at Church history, well, the whole thing begins to unravel. At least intellectually.

But I have no way to exit, because the two edge sword says you have to obey them because they sit in Moses seat. But you don't have to emulate them.

-- exquirer.

[Orthosdoxa]

Wow, exquirer, you sure have it all figured out, how you're right about most things and so many other people are wrong. I hope you're not too lonely in heaven.

[exquirer]

Did you pop up here recently under a different name? Please be honest. I have my suspicions about who this is.



I think the reason you're thinking of leaving is because the log in your own eye is so enormous you can't see the forest for the trees. You're so busy looking for sins in others that you're not seeing the one you're propagating - schism - here.

And FTR, there is thread here with 7 or 8 pages that I, a dirty Antiochian started, begging for prayers for a woman I know that is aborting one of her triplets. Dozens and dozens of people here praying she'd not do it, many - *gasp*! - Antiochians like myself. I have been under the jurisidiction of both Bishop Basil - and if you think he's liberal, then you're not a very smart guy - and Bishop Joseph, and if you think HE'S liberal then... well, you're crazy.

There are some idiot Orthodox out there, to be sure. Jesus said the path to life is narrow and few are the way who find it - even in His own Church. But the Church clearly teaches against abortion and ESSR. If you're going to judge others as bad apples and let them chase you out of His Church, then I don't even know what to say.
No - this honetly is my first time on this board. I have been on others years ago and used my real name. But in this I wanted to be anonymous which isn't my normal style.

I think your probably right about the log in my own eyes being so enormous. I have actually made it so almost on purpose, because I love the Church, love the people in it, but I really hate lies and contradictions and I really don't think "eastern" but have a very western way of thinking, which is distinctly different in many ways.

And I can honestly say, I have not found the narrow way - and perhaps that is part of my frustration. Every time I try to go narrow, I get proud and stupid and fall horribly. And its getting old.

But if you've seen this pattern of thought before, perhaps that is good. I would urge people to think long, hard, research very carefully before they plunge into Orthodoxy. My Anglican Bishop told me I would probably not like having other people think for me in Orthodoxy, and I thought he was full of beans when he said it. But a decade into Orthodoxy, and I am finding that I really don't fit very well except when in Church liturgy itself, when all this fades away.

-- exquirer

[exquirer]

Wow, exquirer, you sure have it all figured out, how you're right about most things and so many other people are wrong. I hope you're not too lonely in heaven.
Like I said, having a brain in Orthodoxy can be a serious problem.

I know I don't know my right from my left, but at least I know there is a right and left.

[Thekla]

As to turning off the brain, simply because your going to see allot of inconsistencies - and the standard answer is check the fathers. But sometimes the fathers are seriously in error. The universe was created in six liturgical days, but not six chronological ones for example - do I have to really believe St. Basil and St. Ephraim and St. John Damascus etc..... who tell me to read Genesis creation literally in terms of chronological hours? I know for a fact the universe is of old, even Scripture informs us of this. They screwed up. Its reality, so what?

At some point you are going to deviate from the fathers, and then all of a sudden, your going to start questioning allot of things.

I can make the fathers right in those respects by remembering II Peter (Psalm 90), 'a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day'... and I can understand their emphasis on literal reading to fit in with a liturgical experience of eons that are endless - which as man we can only experience in terms of hours.

But really were they inspired when they commented on those Scriptures, or were they just plain sloppy? They insisted on a real 24 hour 6-day week. Come on, by Scripture and by observation of reality they were flat wrong.

And if they made such errors, why do we tolerate some errors and not others? The Orthodox Church seems to be a club and have a club mentality. St. Gregory of Nyssa taught the anathema "universal salvation." He wasn't kicked out, and a later Saint basically had to lie and juggle and contort to keep St. Gregory of Nyssa from the flames. At some point, the house of cards falls.

Protestants would call it a "cult" - and they would be wrong to do so - but only half wrong. There are some people like so they are in, and others who aren't in and for reasons that seem arbitrary and capricious.

But maybe the time is coming that people should seriously question many of these things, and start seriously discussing them. God put us on a planet which is remarkable in that it is perfect for scientific observations (the moon for example, provides perfect eclipses in terms of its size and distance to confirm relativity theory). These things are not coincidence - God called the wise men (scientists) as well as the shepherds (Chrysostom called them scientists).

In many ways, the fathers made serious errors, perhaps even about Christology. After all, if the Truth Incarnate lied about the hour to shut up His disciples, then He is not meek and lowly. But God has to practice the virtue of patience, of faith, of not knowing - to be fully God.

I could make a St. Maximos argument that St. Athanasius false teaching should be held anathema because it attacks the very nature of the Eternally Begotten Son, the veracity of Truth of the Gospels, and the Omnipotence of God (God cannot be all-knowing if He cannot experience not knowing something - hence the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and He and the Father are One).

Of course St. Athanasius is a Saint, by why should Origen get kicked out for screwing up, and the Coptics for messing up a stupid Greek verb, and we tolerate our great fathers who directly contradicted Holy Scripture, the Holy Gospels, and ancient teachings? Check with the Holy Spirit, pray about this.

And those things are easily found in prayer - and when you find the Fathers are wrong about those things, and you look at Church history, well, the whole thing begins to unravel. At least intellectually.

But I have no way to exit, because the two edge sword says you have to obey them because they sit in Moses seat. But you don't have to emulate them.

-- exquirer.
sometimes, our perception of error shifts as we grow -- intellectually and spiritually.

[Orthosdoxa]

Like I said, having a prideful, self-important, 'I can't let go of making my own rules' brain in Orthodoxy can be a serious problem.


Fixed.

[exquirer]

I want to thank you all for your prayer and help. I am not into posting anonymously, and frankly this is not the sort of subject one wants to go public with because I am in a state of flux.

I do hope enquirers seriously research the Church and seek to find the narrow way that is consistent with their culture, thinking, and ethos. There are twelve gates into the heavenly city, and while they are all narrow, they are all distinctive.

I pray you find yours.

-- exquirer

[Lukaris]

Like I said, having a brain in Orthodoxy can be a serious problem.

I know I don't know my right from my left, but at least I know there is a right and left.
Why do you single out the Orthodox church in the realm of science? Want to turn off your brain? Join a so called literalist fundamentalist church where they will tell you that behemoths were dinosaurs within a 6000 year old earth. The big difference with Christianity & secular science is that matter is seen as eternal whereas we see it as created from an eternal God & then the law of conservation of matter applying in a created universe of time & space. What about the saints misconceptions? Have you considered external circumstances that may have affected the human intellect? Like plagues, pandemics, & famines? For example, I have heard of few instances of witch burnings in europe prior to the Black Death but look at afterwards even cats were "demonic." But look at the horror & turmoil that led to such superstition. Circumstances like this have occurred in all types of cultures Christian & non Christian.

[Orthosdoxa]

seek to find the narrow way that is consistent with their culture, thinking, and ethos.

There is the problem right there.

[Akathist]

I am in the Orthodox Church and a convert, but I seriously want to get out. Not because I don't believe it is the Church, because it is. Also, not because I don't believe in all things of the Creed - I really do believe them.

I love everyone in the Church, but I can't stand the fact that there are so many bigshot Democrats who think killing Babies and Embryonic stem cell research is fine. I do love those people, but I really can't stand being around those attitudes and opinions.

seriously,

--exquirer

It is easy to leave the Church. Decide to leave then stop attending.

But honestly, if you believe in what the Church teaches then I suggest that you consider remaining in the church. Don't let people who attend a church be the reason you leave it. If necessary, find a different parish.

My suggestion is that you talk to your Priest about this matter before making a final decision.

[Lukaris]

I want to thank you all for your prayer and help. I am not into posting anonymously, and frankly this is not the sort of subject one wants to go public with because I am in a state of flux.

I do hope enquirers seriously research the Church and seek to find the narrow way that is consistent with their culture, thinking, and ethos. There are twelve gates into the heavenly city, and while they are all narrow, they are all distinctive.

I pray you find yours.

-- exquirer
I was posting simulaneously as you were so consider my last post perhaps obsolete by this point & God Bless.

[Thekla]

Like I said, having a brain in Orthodoxy can be a serious problem.

I know I don't know my right from my left, but at least I know there is a right and left.
I think, perhaps, you are ill informed ?

http://romanity.org/mir/me01en.htm

[Protoevangel]

exquirer,

For your sake, I hope you are not receiving the Holy Mysteries.

Have you spoken to your priest about these doubts and fears? This is absolutely essential. I would guess 'no', that you have been wallowing in your self-pride and deception, reading protestant propaganda, all without consulting your priest about it in any meaningful way.

You want out of the Church? From what you have written, I suspect you already are... It's just that you and your priest just don't know it yet. Please come back, talk to your priest, accept, take to heart, and put into practice his advice.

The head, apart from the heart will be the devil's play toy The heart, apart from the head will lead you into all error. Both apart from obedience will be useless. The head and the heart must be united, and obedient to a spiritual father for you to be lead out of this quicksand of deceit and perfidy.

[nestoj]

exquirer,

For your sake, I hope you are not receiving the Holy Mysteries.

Have you spoken to your priest about these doubts and fears? This is absolutely essential. I would guess 'no', that you have been wallowing in your self-pride and deception, reading protestant propaganda, all without consulting your priest about it in any meaningful way.

You want out of the Church? From what you have written, I suspect you already are... It's just that you and your priest just don't know it yet. Please come back, talk to your priest, accept, take to heart, and put into practice his advice.

The head, apart from the heart will be the devil's play toy The heart, apart from the head will lead you into all error. Both apart from obedience will be useless. The head and the heart must be united, and obedient to a spiritual father for you to be lead out of this quicksand of deceit and perfidy.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Protoevangel again.

nestoj
God helps

[buzuxi02]

The reason Origen was anathemized by the fifth council is because certain false teachings infiltrated the Church at that time, and the heretics pointed to him as their source. Origen was the father of certain heresies which arose. The Origenist controversy needed to come to an end. The fanatical monks who were his disciples and considered him almost infallible, would not repent and accept certain errors in his works. They were persecuted, yes, they seeked shelter in other areas of the empire as well, you mentioned how St John Chrysostom sheltered some, yet these monks spread Origen's heresies to the places they sought solace. By the 6th century Origen's writings morphed into an Origen centered spirituality, a school of its own with its own adherents.

Origen taught in the pre-existence of souls. And no one cared until Origen's "disciples" tried to shove it down everyones throats. Certain extreme monophysites started teaching that Christ had 2 natures before the union (the incarnation) but only one after. The Orthodox belief is that the human nature does not exist before the incarnation (or conception). This is the teaching of the pre-existence of the soul.

This is simply one example, others started speculating on reincarnation. An opinion surfaced which speculated that John the Apostle would reincarnate and be one of the two witnesses mentioned in Revelations.

Even today some modern theologians speculate that perhaps John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. (Both these heresies can be backed by scripture and the modern day preacher who wants to advance reincarnation points to Origen, in fact Origen did indeed speculate that the Baptist was Elijah reincarnate).

Within a hundred years after the anathema of this teaching at the fifth council, the muslims began arguing that Christ is not god, just a prophet, The muslim apologists argued that, "we" christians think he is god because we forgot our belief in the pre-existence of human souls! They argue(and still do) that when Christ said, he "was going to where he was before" and other sayings pointing to his pre-existence, the muslim apologists call upon Origen. Mislims argued that there was a superstitious belief amongst christians and the people of Christ's time that human souls pre-existed and it is this that Jesus speaks of. Once again their source is Origen.
The muslims conclude that christians have distorted and changed the gospel most likely at Nicea. Once again Origen is the man they use to prove this.

The anathema against such a teaching shielded Orthodox christians against the muslim apologists. Unfortunately many Copts were probably persuaded by such an argument. Anti-imperialistic feelings, a surging Islamic conquest, plus possible evidence from an alexandrian Father head of the alexandrian school was all they needed to apostacize to islam. The anathema of Origen is a case of God protecting his Church from outside heretical influences.

Likewise with Origen's view of the restoration of all things. People during that time seized on this view and it had to be condemned. We know that many saints held to this view (mostly because of reading Origen to begin with), just like many pre-nicene saints held to chiliasm. But when too many people begin to grasp false-belief the Church must establish right-belief. And the cause of this false belief, the reason why many believed in this heresy was because of his zealot monks who claimed they were his disciple. This origenist movement even pitted the monks of egypt against each other and spread to the entire empire, finally to Rome and Aquilea by the sixth century it was almost a quasi-sect within christianity.

Origen also held to a subordinationist view of the Trinity as many others did in the pre-nicene church, but this was never forcefully condemned. Why? Because there was no reason to. Nicea was already firmly established and the Origenist monks did not dispute the Nicene creed. In the early church these two views were never in conflict with each other. And afterwards no one ever ressurected a subordinate view of the Persons of the Trinity. But it was a heresy he held, but one the origenist monks never promoted, so its not mentioned clearly or at the very least as strongly in the anathemas against him.

On your other complaint on ethics, Orthodoxy was brought here by immigrants. Immigrants do not see themselves as coming to America as agents of change. They came here to make a better living, not to transform the "xenoi"(strangers as greeks call them). Likwise the immigrants were strangers in a strange land themselves and prefer to not meddle in internal cultural american affairs. Likwise they dont see these things affecting them since their foreign culture and language "shields" them from such things.

I do not believe in protesting for such tragedies. The fact remains that abortion is now a part of western culture. That the majority of people both believers and non-believers accept it. In such a case its better to start at the grassroots level. You will know them by their fruits, start with your own family, teach them properly and teach them to stay above the influence of popular belief.

[Akathist]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Protoevangel again.

nestoj
God helps

I took care of this for you and me both.

[Vessel Of Mercy]

Exquirer,

I'm sorry to hear that you have to deal with all this. I'm a catechumen, so I don't know a lot about most issues, but it seems to me like you've mostly had a long, bad experience in your church. I can't really relate, because in my Antiochian church I've had nothing but a great experience so far. Sure, some of the cradle Orthodox only show up for a couple services a year, but I've had an amazing experience with almost everyone. Our bishop recently urged us to take specific action against the practice of abortion in our own city. Not to mention how everyone I've met is more selfless and loving than the people I've met in any of my 6 non-orthodox churches I've joined or attended for long periods of time, from many different cities and states. Their actions are more consistent with the Christian faith in every way. They (and the writings of the saints they recommend) have taught me ways of loving God and others that I couldn't even conceive before (even if I have trouble living according to what they say). The only reason I'm telling you this is to say that it looks like you're in the wrong place. There are past Church events and decisions that I will never understand, but I came to Orthodoxy secondarily because of the theological stuff, and primarily because I found the path to Christ that is actually dealing with my sin, which is the biggest problem. It doesn't sound like you're in a congregation that would be as interested in that, although I can't make any real judgements. We may be looking at different sides of the Church.

Our priests have taught us to stop hunting for heresy and inferiority, except in ourselves, and to appreciate our past, non-orthodox heritage in other Christian groups, even if we disagree with some things they teach and do.

You say that you get proud and stupid and fall horribly every time you try to "go narrow". Does that mean that you are doing more spiritual things? I don't know how old you are, so I'm sure my opinion isn't that helpful, but all I know to tell you is,

"And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up." Gal 6:9

"Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted." Heb 12:3

"Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable." Isa 40:28

Maybe you need be more of an ascetic, to get more "excersize". You seem to know about church history and theology, but a big problem of mine is substituting learning, entertainment and even sleeping in the place of prayer and giving myself to others. Maybe you don't have this problem. St. Anthony reminds me that we should pretty much do whatever it takes to obey our Lord. St. John the evangelist scares me when he says that faith without works is dead. Maybe you do good works and have given up a lot to follow Christ, but have you entertained any thoughts that aren't healthy? It's crazy to think that we could be wealthy and proud of our riches, and then become Christians, give our riches away, and then be poor and proud of our poverty.

Anyway, I've been mostly rambling just because it makes me sad to see you in a state like this. My thoughts may be off the wall and completely unhelpful, but I'll pray for you. God knows what you need. Please reconsider, and wait on the Lord! Bring all your needs before him!

[Dorothea]

disregard. Read through the thread.

[PROPHECYKID]

I believe that everyone in a church is free to their opinion on certain things. But when it comes to the bible no church should contradict what the bible says. Every church should take a position on issues that the bible speaks about. But when the bible does not speak about an issue members are entitled to their personal opinion and it should not discourage you if members have different opinions on certain things. 1 question to ask yourself. What does the bible say about those things?

[Orthosdoxa]

Well, prophecykid, we believe not only in Scripture, but also in Holy Tradition, as passed down by the Apostles and held faithfully by the Orthodox Church for the last 2000 years. So while we certainly don't contradict the Bible, there's a little more to it than that.

[Vintagecoils]

I love everyone in the Church, but I can't stand the fact that there are so many bigshot Democrats who think killing Babies and Embryonic stem cell research is fine. I do love those people, but I really can't stand being around those attitudes and opinions.

seriously,

--exquirer

Christ is with us!

:swoon: Please slow down and examine what you are saying.

Few items.
We are not in the Church to like the poor sinners as we are that are in the Church. Only sinners are in the Church. We are commanded to love one another as Christ love us.
We go for the healing from Our Lord and Savior. To Worship and Give Praise.

The church you seem to be unhappy with in all reality is the local parish you attend. Every member of my parish and Dioses was either at or supported people to go to the annual March for life in Washington. So I think you are limiting your scope and condeming or of Orthodox Christianity due to some poor mis guided sinners.

So what to do. I attend services with people from foreign lands and don't speak English. So it is clear they are not there for the personal politics or chit chat. But what a blessing to have them and they give me a smile or a hug and sometimes the Holy kiss and don't even know my name. Why because they are there for Christ as Christ has commanded us for our own good. They know they are in the true church.

Take an english Divine liturgy book and go to a Russian or Romanian or Serbian etc non english parish. Go and be with Christ. I do it all the time just to get out and be with the faithful in different parishes. Soak up the Divine service and let the Truth of Christ in. That is but Satan using any little thing to press hard on you. Besides its obvious your parish needs a true follower like you in their midst lest they be lost. God Forbid!

Lord have mercy on me , a sinner.

[Vasileios]

I just saw this and it probably doesn't make any difference now but I couldn't help notiing that the OP mentioned St. John Maximovich, St. John Chrysostom and St. Nectarios as prime examples of people who were wrongly accused and persecuted from within the Churh.

Guessing that these saints are people the OP looks up to, why not follow THEIR example then? Did they leave the Church? Did they stood back and say "well, the Orthodox Church is full of rotten fruits so best get out now, while we can!"?

What did they actually do when they were in a situation infinitely worse than what the OP is describing? What did they do? And for a second thought... What did the Church eventually do in regards to them? How many Churches do you know where they venerate the persecutors? How many Orthodox do you see asking for the persecutors' prayers?

The elder Paisios said about those who look for errors inside the Church:
If you see filth on the road, do you stop and point it out to everyone passing by? Or do you try and cover it up so nobody is disgusted by its sight?

We must be like the bee. In a field the bee only goes to the flower. If you ask the bee "do you know about all the filth in this field?" the bee will not answer. It only knows about the flowers and the nectar.

But there are people who resemble the fly. It only looks for filth to sit on and lay its eggs. If you ask the fly "do you know about all the flowers and the nectar in this field?", the fly will not answer. It only knows about the filth.

Forgive me.