You Are.. FIRED ... Protestants Can Do This

[Bruce S]

The other night, I was having a long [friendly] discussion with a Catholic friend of mine.

In this discussion, we were exchanging viewpoints on varioius issues facing the world and church's today. Of course, the problem the Catholic church is facing with allegations of sexual nature with youngsters came up.

Notwithstanding any issues on that. I told him, one of the best things about the denomination I have now joined [and most other Protestant denomination, not all, but most] is that the Pastor works FOR the congregation. He/She is hired by, paid by, and works at the discretion of the laity.

That is good, in my opinion, it makes for more accountability, unlike some denominations, where a bad leader can be appointed OVER YOU, without ANY SAYSO of the laity.

If a Pastor falls into trouble, or is doctrinally in gross error, the LAITY, can simply say..."You are FIRED Pastor!"

Comments?

[nyj]

Bruce, what happens if the laity are the ones in gross error and they fire their pastor who is trying to give them an orthodox message?

Let me ask you a question: Have you ever heard of a flock of sheep firing their shepherd?

[I can eat 50 eggs]

bingo NYJ.

I have been in several protestant churches where the congregation, as a whole, or powerful individuals had some very serious issues in there life. The pastor was to afraid to say anything, knowing it would cost him his job (like it did the one before him). Thus the sinning just kept on, and nobody confronted the problem.

and where is there more likely to be a problem, in the laity (a whole bunch of folks) or in the pastor?

[eldermike]

I have seen good pastors fired but I have seen more bad ones fired.

Pastors are not afraid of being fired, not the ones I know. God takes care of His Children.

[MikeMcK]

We can fire our pastors but there are a series of checks and balances that ensure that he isn't fired unjustly or unfairly.

Firing, itself, would be a last resort. The situation would have to be pretty desperate for it to come to that.

[Lotar]

I knew a pastor who was afriad to come out and tell the truth because he was afraid of being fired, or people leaving and lossing the finacial support. Quite sad.

At Calvary Chapel churches, the pastors can't be fired without great reason. The pastors can fire the elders.

[eldermike]

In my home church the Pastor is the teaching Elder. The Elders can fire him but it's unlikely because apart from a few specific reasons, it would take His vote along with ours.

[Lanakila]

My hubby was forced out of an Independent Baptist Church for preaching against racism. We had a feeling it was coming, when he wrote the sermon. But as the scripture states: I will obey God rather than man. He wasn't fired, because to do that the church has to have just cause (per its constitution). But, powerful people in the church, basically starved us out.

God took care of us, and this situation has strengthened our resolve to stand for what is right, no matter the circumstances. For church members to go against the pastor, that they themselves have voted and chosen to be their leader, is beyond imagination, but it happens.

[Metanoia02]

Notwithstanding any issues on that. I told him, one of the best things about the denomination I have now joined [and most other Protestant denomination, not all, but most] is that the Pastor works FOR the congregation. He/She is hired by, paid by, and works at the discretion of the laity.


Comments?
The Pastor or Priest works FOR God. If they forget that they should leave the ministry.

[Knight]

I've never seen a pastor fired. Though I've seen some that should have been.

The idea that a good pastor can get thrown out by a wicked elder board cuts both ways. Why is it people assume that the pastor is less likey to be corrupted than the elders?

[Lotar]

I've seen many more cases where the elders are the problem, but a pastor should care about pleasing God, not man. If it gets him fired, then it's God's will.

[ZiSunka]

Bruce, what happens if the laity are the ones in gross error and they fire their pastor who is trying to give them an orthodox message?

Let me ask you a question: Have you ever heard of a flock of sheep firing their shepherd?
It DOES happen, nyj, a lot more than you realize. PRE flocks quietly fire their pastors when bad things come up. If my pastor, God forbid, were found to have committed immorality, I would certainly vote to remove him. And guess what? We have that right. Yep, we hold congregational meetings to make all kinds of big decisions, like the one we had a few weeks ago to decide whether or not to start a contemporary worship service, or our annual meeting to decide which missions to support for the coming year, and so on. Each year, we vote to confirm or deny people who want to be elders.

Our congregation is lead by our pastor, but our structure is such that we take responisiblity for everything that happens within our church.

[ZiSunka]

The Pastor or Priest works FOR God. If they forget that they should leave the ministry.
But they are employed by the congregation.

[Bruce S]

Not ASSIGNED to you, often against your will.

[Bruno]

Let me ask you a question: Have you ever heard of a flock of sheep firing their shepherd?
nyj and I can eat 50 eggs,

Do you believe it is wise to follow a shepherd that abuses and harms his sheep?

[Plan 9]

Pardon me. At first I thought I might take part in what I'd hoped was a discussion, but on closer inspection, it appears to be purely a pro-con debate. This would mean that no one now taking part would be at all interested in any post I would make regarding my denomination's "middle road" approach.
Am I correct?

[Filia Mariae]

Plan 9,

I'd like to hear what you have to say.

In Christ,
Carly

[Filia Mariae]

Do you believe it is wise to follow a shepherd that abuses and harms his sheep?


Any man who abuses children has so badly disfigured his priesthood, an icon of the eternal priesthood of Christ, that he should no longer be permitted to serve as a priest. No one here is debating such an obvious fact.

But I think your comment shows a misunderstanding. You seem to think that lay Catholics have no voice, no control of their parish. Quite the opposite is true. Laity generally run the show, excepting of course the sacraments. This is unfortunate in my opinion- we would have far more orthodox parishes if more priests were running the show.

And of course there is the small matter of the perpetual painting of priests as pervert sickos when we know that 99% of them are dedicated, faithful, men of God.

In Christ,
Carly

[Plan 9]

Plan 9,

I'd like to hear what you have to say.

In Christ,
Carly
Thank you. I hope you still feel that way after I've posted here. I'm a United Methodist and we have rather an odd history; we just happened, much against John Wesley's will, and that has a lot to do with how we're set up.
So, if you don't happen to be familiar with our history, you might need to wade through a possibly less than sparkling post on that? I don't want to bore you.

[Filia Mariae]

I'd be interested to hear- my posts are often less sparkling than I would like:)

[Plan 9]

Historically speaking, the Church of England was not formed due to the Protestant Reformation. John Wesley was an Anglican minister in good standing for his entire life and had no intention whatsoever of starting a separate denomination; quite the reverse.
What happened was that he had promoted the formation of lay Bible societies called "Holy Clubs", who were served by itenerant lay preachers.
Members of the Holy clubs, both German and American, immigrated to America and somehow were transformed, especially in the Western frontier, into churchs. Eventually, after being begged repeatedly to come and help set up a church structure suitable for their survival and growth, Wesley threw in the towel.
Even then, he didn't entirely give up. He named the English speaking version the Methodist Episcopal Church ("Methodist" was originally a pejorative term).
The German speaking Methodists went through some changes and eventually were called the Evangelical United Brethren.
___________
At this point any Catholic (and many Protestants) would be thinking, "Where was the Episcopal Church when the converts of this enormous revival and Wesley needed them?" I haven't studied enough to know exactly what went wrong, but something sure did, or there would not be a United Methodist Church, as well as many other Methodist/Wesleyan denominations.
___________
As a result, Wesley is now stuck trying to set up two American Methodist churches (because of the language barrier) who have no church tradition, which Wesley deeply valued, to protect and guide them. They do have leaders in whom authority has already been invested by the congregants, and Wesley (in an informal way) and these leaders are the ones who have begged Wesley for help, essentially telling him that they've done as much as they can. And they have, too, they are the Methodist circuit riders, many of whom who traveled thousands of miles on horseback to scattered groups of Christians throughout the western frontier, also bringing nrew and mail.
What Wesley did was to make our church structure much like that of the United States Government, only in minuature, which Bishops at the head of the executive branch.
Bishops always have the final authority, but our lay people must be heavily involved in running their individual churches. Local ministers do. Every UMC congregation sends both lay and clerical delegates to vote once a year and we have "high" and "low" churches and some that fall in the middle somewhere.

Is that enough background for everyone? Questions? Refreshments?

[Filia Mariae]

Refreshments?

Whatcha got?:D

[Fiskare]

a) The real issue of contention with and within American methodism is the ordinations of Thomas Coke and Francis Asbury. Did John Wesley have no choice, or was his brother right in opposing the move? Basically it was an act of material, if not formal, schism from the Church of England, because John W was not a bishop himself and he acted without authority,although he claimed it was a necessity.

b) Regarding the firing of pastors, it's really about checks and balances, regardless of the denomination. For example, in a church with a confessional basis, the pastor is constrained to teach within those confessional boundaries, and thus it is more difficult to fire him if he is orthodox to his denomination, as there is an objective truth that the congregation must adhere to. On the other hand, in a denomination without a confessional basis, the pastor may be fired for a personality conflict or something similar. The point being: if checks and balances are in place, there is greater order and less injustice may occur regarding the treatment of pastors and their families. But, nothing is perfect.