"REFUGE" Questions Fielded Here, Guest Speaker - Fr Rick (Non-Debate)

[Time2BCounted]

Hello Everyone,

I pm'd Fr Rick, who is part of the staff working with the 'Refuge' forum, and he has graciously agreed happily to come here to field some questions for us.

I welcome him as an Honored Guest to discuss this with us.

Also i assured him that we have the very best intent for all involved, we arent witch hunting, we hold no hostility, and that our wishes are for good things for all involved. I also assured him too on the flip side however, that some of the quesitons might be hard to answer or seem straightforward, but that we welcome him as our brother, and we are glad to have him drop in.

He has gone to church for now, but he will drop in after church and field these quesitons for us.

I informed him that i am posting this early, so that folks wanting to participate will have time to think and pray and frame their thoughts and questions.

I would like to ask something special from participants too. There is no problem with voicing opinion at all, this should be acceptable, but allow this opinion to also lead to a quesiton, so that we can make the best of the time he is able to offer us.

I am asking too that this be strictly for opinion/question type format and that we dont debate here. I see nothing wrong however with another thread being made for actual CC discussion. If neccessary too, we can place that in the debate forum to hash out.

Fr Rick,
we welcome you and we thank you for taking the time to address our questions, so that we can discuss this from a more informed point of view.

We hope you enjoy our forum, the fellowship, and we hope you can appreciate our concern and honest questions. Also be assured everyone here is all for helping everyone we can.

God bless all participants and thank you

[Time2BCounted]

Bump
I see Father Rick is here, amen

hoping all are ready, and we become more informed

[Time2BCounted]

Fr Rick hi brother,

Is there snything youd like to say before we start or are ya ready for a few questions?

God bless and thank you for coming

[Lisa0315]

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39767680&postcount=93

This is as good as any place to post this. Again, another unbiased support post for Beth Miqlat.

Lisa

[Time2BCounted]

Thank you Lisa

Thank you too Fr Rick


Brother i will start if one minds.

First a couple just basic questions.

1) If one wanted to know who was the staff overseeing this new forum, and wanted to know the membership only of the 'friends of the forum' and the 'black sheep', is this publicly available anywhere on the board?

2) could you give us a definition of the friends of the forum as well as the black sheep club? What functions do they perform, what is their purpose?


Thank you very much

[Father Rick]

First.... I suggest that anyone interested in knowing about Beth Miqlat read the wiki found here (http://foru.ms/t6128006-wiki-beth-miqlat.html) since that will answer many questions.

Thank you Lisa

Thank you too Fr Rick


Brother i will start if one minds.

First a couple just basic questions.

1) If one wanted to know who was the staff overseeing this new forum, and wanted to know the membership only of the 'friends of the forum' and the 'black sheep', is this publicly available anywhere on the board?First, as to staff overseeing BeMi, there are members of the Recovery staff as well as the Chaplaincy staff. Other staff who are interested can request access so that they can view the forum if they would like-- with an understanding that confidentiality is to be observed or their privileges would be revoked.

Personally, I was on Pastoral/Chaplaincy until about 2 weeks ago. At Erwin's suggestion, I am now coming on Recovery Staff, specifically to be available to BeMi (the poll's still going on somewhere). I've been on staff in some form for about 2 of the past 3 years (Ministry, Ecumenical, Pastoral)

I'm not sure I understand the question about membership in BeMi and "Black Sheep". The "Black Sheep Alliance" was a thread started in Christian Clubs that had a few forum members who were coming out of the occult posting in. AFAIK, there was no formal "membership" or anything there... just one more "club" that whoever wanted to could drop in, but usually had just 3 or 4 regular posters.

As to the "membership only of the 'friends of the forum'"... I'm not quite sure what you're asking for here. Are you asking for those who are members? Or those who are listed as "befrienders"? Either way, I'm not sure if there is a list anywhere outside of the forum. I do know that there is a "check in" list that was started as a sticky within the forum-- but I'm not sure how up to date it is. With all the confusion back and forth, Steffi (Recovery Admin) has been pretty much in charge of having various individuals added to the forum... I'm sure she has a master list as well.




2) could you give us a definition of the friends of the forum as well as the black sheep club? What functions do they perform, what is their purpose?


Thank you very muchFrom the wiki:

Forum Befrienders: Others deemed "friendly", supportive AND "safe" to the members for whom this subforum is intended to serve and who profess and follow Christ
...
Forum Befrienders who have demonstrated a consistent viable presence of supportiveness and demonstrate a maturity to cope with the subject matter should be considered. For those interested a probation period should take place in the BSA (Black Sheep Alliance) Club or the public part of the Refuge forum to determine if their membership in the private forum is in the best interest of all involved. It is recommended that potential forum befrienders should demonstrate a vibrant Christian prayer life.

As I mentioned before, the BSA was originally just a group of 3 or 4 ex-occultists sharing together.

What has happened in the past is that there were a few forum members who felt it was their right/duty to "force" ministry on people coming out of the occult even if the person didn't want it/wasn't ready for it yet. This caused a great deal of harm, since there were people who were sincerely wanting to learn/just coming to Christ who were actually being met with control/manipulation from "Christians" and being told that is what Christianity was like-- and if they didn't just accept it, then they weren't really interested in getting help. Not to mention, they were being flamed/insulted, etc. by others because they weren't at the same place in their journey of faith. (Basically, "if you don't submit to my ministry, then you're just a witch who is rebellion and doesn't really want Jesus anyway"). It was really ugly.

Therefore, what is starting to happen is that for those who want to be part of BeMi, the members want to get to know you first to make certain you aren't a complete jerk who's going to act like some of the people in the past have. Once they have a chance to get to know someone and see that the person is sincere, then they will be allowed membership. People who have been abused repeatedly tend to be a little careful about who they share their hurts with.

[Time2BCounted]

Thank you Fr Rick

First let me thank you for being able to come here and being up front with us on these issues.


When this was initiated, everyone was told that this would be a place for occultists to recover and/or escape from the occult. Is this still the goal there?

Also Who exaclty is able to view the actual forum, and are they able to see everything? Is there a public list showing who is able to view the forum?

[Father Rick]

Thank you Fr Rick

First let me thank you for being able to come here and being up front with us on these issues. You're welcomeWhen this was initiated, everyone was told that this would be a place for occultists to recover and/or escape from the occult. Is this still the goal there?
Yes, that is (and always will be) it's primary goal.


Also Who exaclty is able to view the actual forum, and are they able to see everything? Is there a public list showing who is able to view the forum?All BeMi members/befrienders, as well as all staff who request it (unless their access has been revoked for violating confidentiality), are able to view.

As to a "master list" of who that is... I don't think such would even be practical, since who is in those categories can change at any time (anytime someone is added to or leaves staff... or is added to or leaves the BeMi membership).

[Rep Daddy]

Father Rick, do you carry a pretty good amount of malpractice insurance? That is a serious question.

BTW, I certainly do.

[Father Rick]

Father Rick, do you carry a pretty good amount of malpractice insurance? That is a serious question.

BTW, I certainly do.
Actually, "malpractice" insurance isn't quite the right word. It's actually General Liability to cover any actions taken in my role as a pastor/priest.

However, as you are probably quite aware, general discussions in a public forum do NOT constitute acting in one's professional capacity. Especially when one is holding discussions in an area that is specifically marked as not being professional counsel/advice... and also specifically states that while members may need professional services in real life, only non-directive support will be given.


Since you are clearly aware of these things, one can only assume that questions such as the one posed here are designed to be inflammatory in nature rather than actually seeking information.

[Time2BCounted]

Thanks again Fr Rick

So this is a nonprofessional councelling, and is rather christian councelling designed to help recovering occultists, is this a correct representation Fr Rick?


Also i understand privacy issues, but can you explain how this would be more sensitive than other recovery issues, such as rape, addiction to pornography, and other more common sensitive issues?

And one more if you dont mind in this post lol,


Would you be breaking protocal by giving us a list of supporters, friends and staff who are involved, as well as who is currently able to view? If not could we receive such a list?

[HowardDean]

I have a question. If one of the members seems in great crisis, would the staff ever try and get them real life help?

[Father Rick]

Thanks again Fr Rick

So this is a nonprofessional councelling, and is rather christian councelling designed to help recovering occultists, is this a correct representation Fr Rick?Exactly...

A good analogy would be comparing Beth Miqlat to an AA meeting, as opposed to a rehab facility.

It is designed as a place for peers/friends who are supportive of those seeking to leave the occult to be able to do just that-- support people who are seeking to leave the occult.


Also i understand privacy issues, but can you explain how this would be more sensitive than other recovery issues, such as rape, addiction to pornography, and other more common sensitive issues?
There already are private subforums here for some of the issues you mean-- for some of the same reasons that Beth Miqlat is private (there's just no one complaining/gossipping about those private forums). In fact those forums were the model after which Beth Miqlat was patterned.

With that said, there are many differnt paths of the occult. Some of them involve sexual activity as part of the ritual involved. Others involve drug use. Others involve activities that many would consider "depraved" for various reasons. For many, the road to recovery- regardless of their "sin of choice"- requires that they "get it out" and honestly admit exactly where they were. However, many of these things are best not discussed in the general public due to the "adult" nature of what was involved.

Additionally, as I said before, there are those who are determined they are going to "force" someone to receive ministry. Usually those who are doing such are simply acting out of immaturity rather than malice-- but regardless of the motive, the effect is still damaging. Many forms of the occult include incredible levels of control/manipulation. The last thing a person recovering from such needs is people trying to control/manipulate them again--- and they pick up on it very quickly! Beth Miqlat was designed as a place that they can come and lower their guard at their own pace... as the Holy Spirit works to bring healing in them one step at a time... rather than have someone try to yank all the wounds open at one time.



And one more if you dont mind in this post lol,


Would you be breaking protocal by giving us a list of supporters, friends and staff who are involved, as well as who is currently able to view? If not could we receive such a list?I'm not certain if a set protocol on this has been established yet. Unfortunately, it has taken longer than usual to get some of the things set up since the staff/members have had to devote so much time to "damage control" due to so many of the lies/gossip/false allegations that a few spread around the board.

Since there isn't a protocol that I'm aware of yet, I'll refrain from posting a list of actual members/befrienders (there are 14 at the moment). However, I feel there won't be any problem with listing "official" staff:
Staff
AdJesumPerMariam
BelindaP
boughtwithaprice
Nobility

Pastoral
Constance
Macrina

There are also about 5 other staff who are listed as staff who have access... although are not members just observers. So at this moment, there are a total of 12 staff either observing or actively involved overseeing 14 members. It's obviously one of the best supervised forums here.

editted to add: I think there's about 6 others who have requested to be members but have not been added yet.

[Father Rick]

I have a question. If one of the members seems in great crisis, would the staff ever try and get them real life help?
If you read the wiki, you will see that it is clear that there are times when members of the BeMi may need real life professional services.

If someone is in crisis (be that in BeMi or in any of the other Recovery forums) staff will do what they can to encourage the person to seek the help they need.

Many of those who are in the "most bondage" are already seeking out real life professional services, so there is usually a contact there already to handle such crises.

[Rep Daddy]

Actually, "malpractice" insurance isn't quite the right word. It's actually General Liability to cover any actions taken in my role as a pastor/priest.

However, as you are probably quite aware, general discussions in a public forum do NOT constitute acting in one's professional capacity. Especially when one is holding discussions in an area that is specifically marked as not being professional counsel/advice... and also specifically states that while members may need professional services in real life, only non-directive support will be given.


Since you are clearly aware of these things, one can only assume that questions such as the one posed here are designed to be inflammatory in nature rather than actually seeking information.

You are wrong on this ASSUMPTION. The question was a genuine one. And you have been described as an expert in this area and chosen specifically for these abilities to give direction to this forum.

I am not seeking to inflame... I am expressing a concern as a fellow clergy person.

Please drop the defensiveness.

[Angel4Truth]

In total agreement with drsteve and believe there is still plenty of liability because of position alone.

[Father Rick]

You are wrong on this ASSUMPTION. The question was a genuine one. And you have been described as an expert in this area and chosen specifically for these abilities to give direction to this forum.

I am not seeking to inflame... I am expressing a concern as a fellow clergy person.

Please drop the defensiveness.
Steve...

You've made virtually identical posts in other places on the site... so you're either feigning ignorance, or choosing not to actually look up the information (which is readily available in the wiki).

And one of the reasons I was asked to be part of Beth Miqlat is precisely to prevent it from exceeding it's intended scope... so that if someone does try to act in a "professional capacity" online that such can be stopped immediately, as well as having contacts with "real life" ministries/resources so that if someone does begin to seek more "professional" services, they can be referred to the appropriate professionals in their local area who can do necessary evaluations (be that medical, psychological, etc.) and/or referrals to local churches/ministries.

It is fully understood that an online forum can only do so much... but, if it can give the person the support/encouragement they need to empower that person seek help through a local church and/or whatever other "professional" help they need, then it's done it's job.

[Rep Daddy]

Steve...

You've made virtually identical posts in other places on the site... so you're either feigning ignorance, or choosing not to actually look up the information (which is readily available in the wiki).

And one of the reasons I was asked to be part of Beth Miqlat is precisely to prevent it from exceeding it's intended scope... so that if someone does try to act in a "professional capacity" online that such can be stopped immediately, as well as having contacts with "real life" ministries/resources so that if someone does begin to seek more "professional" services, they can be referred to the appropriate professionals in their local area who can do necessary evaluations (be that medical, psychological, etc.) and/or referrals to local churches/ministries.

It is fully understood that an online forum can only do so much... but, if it can give the person the support/encouragement they need to empower that person seek help through a local church and/or whatever other "professional" help they need, then it's done it's job.

This is the case.

I am a WIKI-Virgin and did not want to soil myself. ;)

Hoping for the best case scenario.

Steve

[Father Rick]

This is the case.

I am a WIKI-Virgin and did not want to soil myself. ;)

Hoping for the best case scenario.

Steve
I'll paste part of the wiki here:

Ministerial/Counseling Parameters

Attempts at Exorcism/Deliverance Forbidden

In keeping with the sound counsels of the previous Deliverance Ministry, Deliverance Theology, and Spiritual Warfare forums, NO ATTEMPTS AT ONLINE "EXORCISM" ARE PERMITTED IN THE BETH MIQLAT SUBFORUM. This includes "confrontation" of (real or supposed) demonic manifestations or exorcist-style responses to posts and/or behavior deemed to constitute such.ALL situations begging intervention of this confrontational nature require real-world, hands-on, real-life presence of other people for the safety of the member. Breaking this rule ONCE is grounds for permanent expulsion from Beth Miqlat.Good Pastoral Ethics Required

GOOD pastoral ethics covering spiritual care apply in this folder. If any members have questions about pastoral ethics, they are encouraged to discuss their concerns with a member of the Chaplaincy team.Seeking/Encouraging Help from External Health Services

Members of the Beth Miqlat subforum may at times require input from statutory health services, including mental health support or to address mental health issues. Subforum members will be supportive of those who experience and express a need for them. Only non directive support should be offered. [Examples of non-directive support include phrases such as 'Have you considered' or 'could this be helpful.'] Members must respect one another's choices in this area and refrain from either criticizing each other's choices or attempting to force their own onto one another.

[Lisa0315]

Please remember that FatherRick is our guest and we should treat him as such using Bibical standards of how we should treat guests. I am not saying anyone is attacking him, but please understand that he is here by request, and should be given every respect and consideration.

Lisa

[KarenJoy]

I see people here who are respecting Father Rick and are raising important issues.

[Simon_Templar]

Hey Fr. Rick :) nice to see you again. Its been too long.

From what you have seen thus far, what is the general tone of the conversations in the BeMi forum? Are the people really seeking help? Are they getting help? In otherwords, is the forum actually serving the purpose for which it was intended?
What is the standard on the part of the staff for dealing with pagans/occultists who come in to cause trouble, and to try and hinder the others who may be seeking help?

[Father Rick]

Hey Fr. Rick :) nice to see you again. Its been too long.

From what you have seen thus far, what is the general tone of the conversations in the BeMi forum? Are the people really seeking help? Are they getting help? In otherwords, is the forum actually serving the purpose for which it was intended?
What is the standard on the part of the staff for dealing with pagans/occultists who come in to cause trouble, and to try and hinder the others who may be seeking help?

Hey!]
It has been a while!
Anyway... so far, I think things are going well. There are a number of "introducting myself" threads. There are several teaching threads by those who have come out of the occult (as in long time recovered) on some of the issues that are involved in various branches of the occult-- and the resulting issues faced by those seeking recovery. There are prayer threads. There are teaching threads regarding healing/deliverance. And there are threads griping about all the fuss about the forum. As well as the normal "fellowship" threads of just what's going on in people's lives.
As to people coming in who "cause trouble"... just because someone says they are coming out of the occult does not mean they are automatically allowed in-- for that very reason. Rather, a desire for recovery is mandatory... (although we know that everyone has ups and downs). If someone is wanting to join, the first step is to get to know some of the members (in Spiritual Warfare, BSA, etc) so that the forum members can tell that the person is on the up-and-up before granting admission. If someone starts trying to cause trouble, their access to the forum would be revoked. The wiki is pretty specific: Absolutely no tolerance will be shown for flaming, harassing, belittling, invalidating, discrediting, or impugning the motives or integrity of subforum members. Subforum members will NOT exhibit abrasiveness or condemnation toward one another. Subforum members may NOT criticize one another in a destructive fashion. Gentle, compassionate, constructive critique and corrective input is allowed, of course, as is the authentic expression of a grievance, issue, or problem within the subforum.

[Angel4Truth]

There are ways to hinder other members and seek to keep them embroiled in the occult besides what that rule covers. There are many who glamorize it - what gets done with those kinds of issues?

[Father Rick]

There are ways to hinder other members and seek to keep them embroiled in the occult besides what that rule covers. There are many who glamorize it - what gets done with those kinds of issues?
Again... from the wiki...

Subject Matter Interpretation and Freedom of Expression


Posts in this subforum discussing personal experiences of Satan, demons, or occult shall not be construed to be "promoting" the same. Members shall have freedom to discuss openly their personal experiences, feelings, thoughts, opinions, perceptions and genuine theological doubts and questions without fear of incurring judgment and nastiness from others. (Reference John 3)
Members should clearly indicate if their post expresses personal experiences, feelings, thoughts, opinions, perceptions and genuine theological doubts and questions given the potential difficulties that this media of communication can cause.
When in doubt, members may request clarifications from one another as to meanings of posts. Request for clarification shall defer to the member so clarifying as the final authority on the true meaning of his or her words and expressions.
In the event that a post still appears to be promoting, the moderators may ask for appropriate edits for purposes of clarification.Just read the wiki guys...It'll answer most of your questions.

[Angel4Truth]

As i understand it, that isnt being enforced.

[Lisa0315]

I see people here who are respecting Father Rick and are raising important issues.

I know Karen. I wasn't say there was. I am not trying to do your job, I promise. It just felt a little tense for a moment and I wanted to ease that tension. That is all.

Lisa

[Father Rick]

As i understand it, that isnt being enforced.
Apparently, you've been given some misinformation.

But then you have to realize, the people who are gossipping are just that-- gossips. So I wouldn't really expect very good info from them.

[Angel4Truth]

Many of the people i trust explicitly are saying it and they arent the kind of people to gossip so i am concerned.

[Father Rick]

Many of the people i trust explicitly are saying it and they arent the kind of people to gossip so i am concerned.
Well... since the forum is private and the information is confidential... they either have first hand information (which means they are violating the confidence they have been entrusted and have therefore proven they don't keep their word), or they are relying on second hand information from someone else who has violated such a confidence.

No matter how you look at it, unless you are talking to someone like myself-- who is actually a member of the forum with first hand knowledge of what is there-- you're depending on gossip.

I really don't mean that to be rude... just a statement of fact.

[Angel4Truth]

As another matter of fact someone can state that rules arent being enforced without being specific about members and content of posts so i wouldnt be quick to accuse of gossip.

[Time2BCounted]

Father Rick

Thank you again my friend, i see this has been fairly informative so far

I thank everyone too for their questions

Fr Rick
Of course a few hard questions have to be asked, i hope you do understand. If there were no hard questions though it would be because we had no concerns.

Is everyone involved in the recovery/aid/councelling, including staff, and friends of the forum, supporters, actually saved? Are any of them presently associated with the occult?

Another question of concern would be concerning the membership. We were all informed, as this forum was being designed, that every member would be escaping the occult and actively seeking salvation or saved. I happened to be pm'ing with one of the members, and they made it very very clear that they were not in fact going to reject the occult and its practices, and they were not at all interested in doing the things neccessary to be saved. Can you tell us why they are a part of the forum, and do you feel they are likely to aid or hinder someone actually attempting to recover?

[Father Rick]

As another matter of fact someone can state that rules arent being enforced without being specific about members and content of posts so i wouldnt be quick to accuse of gossip.Well, I can state for a fact that the ONLY real issue of rules enforcement was a complaint that staff weren't being strict about editting curse words.

And that was already addressed by staff within the forum.

[Father Rick]

Father Rick

Thank you again my friend, i see this has been fairly informative so far

I thank everyone too for their questions

Fr Rick
Of course a few hard questions have to be asked, i hope you do understand. If there were no hard questions though it would be because we had no concerns.

Is everyone involved in the recovery/aid/councelling, including staff, and friends of the forum, supporters, actually saved? Are any of them presently associated with the occult?

Another question of concern would be concerning the membership. We were all informed, as this forum was being designed, that every member would be escaping the occult and actively seeking salvation or saved. I happened to be pm'ing with one of the members, and they made it very very clear that they were not in fact going to reject the occult and its practices, and they were not at all interested in doing the things neccessary to be saved. Can you tell us why they are a part of the forum, and do you feel they are likely to aid or hinder someone actually attempting to recover?
Again, from the wiki:

Terminology for Members

Regular Members: Those presently seeking Christian help even if under demonic influence, oppression or inhabitation, who:
have a history with one or more bona fide occult traditions,
are Christian, demonstrate openness to Christ or are actively seeking Christ
seek Christian input on, or solutions for, their situation
Staff Members: Staff from Recovery and Ministry and Chaplaincy Team who feel able to cope with the subject matter.
Forum Befrienders: Others deemed "friendly", supportive AND "safe" to the members for whom this subforum is intended to serve and who profess and follow ChristI currently know of NO members who do not fit this definition... so if you claim that a member pm'd you otherwise, I would speculate that either they aren't really a member and are just saying they are-- or you misunderstood what they were saying.

[Lisa0315]

Time,
You should get permission to forward that PM to FatherRick so they can deal with it.

Lisa

[Angel4Truth]

Or maybe they arent who those in that forum think they are or maybe they are but some think they can get them saved - everyone on all sides can speculate and no one can be sure because its hidden.

That fact causes many problems for many many reasons.

[Time2BCounted]

No, this isnt the case, they are a member that i can name but for confidentiality i wont, nor will i quote them to protect their identity, i wouldnt mind pming their name to you and what they stated.

Excuse me for rushing my first few posts here this morning, i am also working on a couple other things that are pressing, but i wanted to take what time i could while you were available as well, so thank you for bearing with me.

Could you tell me please if all the 'friends of the forum' are christian and presently not associated with any occult activity?

Also how do you define 'seeking christian help'? This can mean many things, could you be specific there please? For instance, can they just say they want help without making any attempt to escape or recover? If not what are the requirements?

Thank you

[Father Rick]

As another matter of fact someone can state that rules arent being enforced without being specific about members and content of posts so i wouldnt be quick to accuse of gossip.
BTW... why is someone who would have access to such information sharing it with you?

I don't mean that as an insult to you in any way... as I don't know you at all.

However, since you're not part of the staff, you're not someone who has access to make change in that forum, etc. then there is absolutely no reason that such should be shared. Doing so IS gossip. It's really that simple.

And I don't know who it is who was talking to you, so I'm not making any personal attacks here... I'm just addressing a specific action.

If someone does have such a concern, then they should go to the staff involved and express their concern privately. Or if they have done that already and not met with satisfaction, then they should go "higher up" to Admins, SuperAdmins, or even to Erwin/LeeD. But just going around telling people there's a problem IS, by its very definition, idle gossip.

[Tonks]

As another matter of fact someone can state that rules arent being enforced without being specific about members and content of posts so i wouldnt be quick to accuse of gossip.

I have access to the forum and I believe that the rules are being enforced. Likewise, per my linked post by Lisa, in the past I do think that there were some rather permissive approaches taken when it came to rule violations. This, however, is not the case now from my read. I think that the staff is doing a good job in the face of a hard situation.

Your post perpetuates the gossip. Fr. Rick has provided a list of the staff members of the forum so I would suggest PMing one of them if there are concerns instead of speaking in vague terms about a section of the site that you can't see.

T2BC: the list of members of the forum do not need to be dragged out into public. Likewise, I believe whichever PM you may or may not have received should remain private and it is not really a topic for public discourse.

[Time2BCounted]

I disagree Tonks

I believe it is a very important quesiton

And no membership list has been dragged out. We are asking questions that concern us, i hope you arent implying we have no right for concern...

At any rate this is a thread specificly asking Fr Rick our concerns, as i said in the OP if we wish to discuss side matters feel free to post a new thread in the debate forum my friend and i will be happy to discuss it with you there

So lets not sidetrack the thread and i will await Fr Rick's response to my questions

[Angel4Truth]

You guys can attack me all you want - and no staff doesnt or isnt suppose the make the rules here the members are. Was that forgotton? Occultic practice here affects the entire board and that is a concern whether you like it or not and no i will not name people who speak to me confidentialy nor do they reveal confidential information.

Again since no one can see for themselves your arguments are moot and look worse to me because you are attacking those with concerns for not taking your word for it at the same time accusing someone you do not even know. Saying rules are violated isnt a personal attack yet you and tonks are personally attacking ME .

sorry but thats quite telling.

[Father Rick]

No, this isnt the case, they are a member that i can name but for confidentiality i wont, nor will i quote them to protect their identity, i wouldnt mind pming their name to you and what they stated.
While I completely understand not publishing such a pm publicly (which would be a major confidentiality violation).

However, making vague unsubstantiated accusations does nothing but generate gossip. If you genuinely believe that there is a member of refuge who is blatantly stating that they are not willing to seek Christ, then that the forum staff should be notified so that the matter can be clarified... and if it is indeed true, then that person will be removed from BeMi.

I would highly suggest pm'ing Steffi as she is the Recovery Admin.

If you don't feel that such info is trustworthy enough to contact Steffi about, then I suggest you don't continue proposing the "possibility" of someone being part of BeMi who shouldn't be... as such only serves to stir up gossip.

Either way... deal with it appropriately, then let it go.


Excuse me for rushing my first few posts here this morning, i am also working on a couple other things that are pressing, but i wanted to take what time i could while you were available as well, so thank you for bearing with me.

Could you tell me please if all the 'friends of the forum' are christian and presently not associated with any occult activity?
Not to be rude, but there's no sense in asking and answering the same question repeatedly. The wiki speaks for itself on the matter.


Also how do you define 'seeking christian help'? This can mean many things, could you be specific there please? For instance, can they just say they want help without making any attempt to escape or recover? If not what are the requirements?

Thank you
The wiki there is not a multiple choice... it is a comprehensive list.

To be a member, one must a) be seeking Christian help (defined as help from a Christian perspective) AND


have a history with one or more bona fide occult traditions, AND
are Christian, demonstrate openness to Christ or are actively seeking Christ AND
seek Christian input on, or solutions for, their situation

[Time2BCounted]

Fr Rick
I know what the wiki says, thats all good. This doesnt neccessarily mean it is the case however. I am simply asking if any of the 'friends of the forum' are presently involved with the occult in any way? A 'no' would be good enough for me if it is the case.

Also, since this is not profressional councelling, and apparently 'seeking christian help' can mean many things not neccessarily including seeking deliverance, what kind of help can this forum offer one who issnt seeking Christianity, and yet not receiving professional councelling there either, in your opinion?


Also related to this, do you feel this can be a hinderance to those who ARE seeking to be christian and delivered and recovering?


And one more question if you dont mind, When this forum was in the making, we were all told the members had to be christian or seeking activly to be christian. When was this changed, and who made the decision to change this? It certainly wasnt put to any sort of public vote.

[Father Rick]

You guys can attack me all you want - and no staff doesnt or isnt suppose the make the rules here the members are. Was that forgotton? Occultic practice here affects the entire board and that is a concern whether you like it or not and no i will not name people who speak to me confidentialy nor do they reveal confidential information.

Again since no one can see for themselves your arguments are moot and look worse to me because you are attacking those with concerns for not taking your word for it at the same time accusing someone you do not even know. Saying rules are violated isnt a personal attack yet you and tonks are personally attacking ME .

sorry but thats quite telling.
I don't see why you are saying you have been attacked.

I haven't said anything about you or your actions at all... at least not intentionally.

I did say that those who were gossipping to you were wrong in doing so. So far, the only interaction I've had with you is your asking questions about the forum from someone (me) who actually has accurate information.

I would assume that since you came to ask questions, that you would accept such information rather than choosing to pass along the gossip you have heard from others.

[Time2BCounted]

its all good folks

Breeeeeeeeeeathe :)

[Father Rick]

Ok... now you're going in circles.

It appears that you have some pre-conceived ideas/questions about the forum, and continue to ask questions without slowing down long enough to absorb the answers already given.
Fr Rick
I know what the wiki says, thats all good. This doesnt neccessarily mean it is the case however. I am simply asking if any of the 'friends of the forum' are presently involved with the occult in any way? A 'no' would be good enough for me if it is the case.I've already said that the wiki IS being enforced. To continually ask questions "well is this part being enforced" implies that you either a) think I am being dishonest with you somehow or b) think I am unaware of what the wiki states. I can assure you that neither of those is the case.

But just so there is no misunderstanding--No... those listed as "friends of the forum" are not currently involved in the occult.



Also, since this is not profressional councelling, and apparently 'seeking christian help' can mean many things not neccessarily including seeking deliverance, what kind of help can this forum offer one who issnt seeking Christianity, and yet not receiving professional councelling there either, in your opinion?
Again, you are asking questions without a foundation of what has already been answered. Your questions are built on underlying wrong assumptions that have already been answered/corrected.

Please go back and read my previous posts (hint... there are MULTIPLE requirements for membership that must be met).



Also related to this, do you feel this can be a hinderance to those who ARE seeking to be christian and delivered and recovering?

Once again... same issue...

If you're unwilling to accept my answers, then please quit asking questions of me as such is simply a waste of both of our time.

And one more question if you dont mind, When this forum was in the making, we were all told the members had to be christian or seeking activly to be christian. When was this changed, and who made the decision to change this? It certainly wasnt put to any sort of public vote.The wiki formation was done as any other wiki is done... publicly. Any statements to the contrary are simply false-- be that from a lack of accurate information or whatever.

The wiki is now, and has always been, public... it's creation was public... it's updates are public... and like every other wiki here, it has a "history" button so that anyone who is interested can go back and review each of the snapshots that were taken.

[Time2BCounted]

Fr Rick
It seems you are misunderstanding my questions, and it also seems you are becoming defensive. I can assure you no one is under attack my friend, my apologies if it seems this way to you.

Heres what i mean, here is the wiki...


Regular Members: Those presently seeking Christian help even if under demonic influence, oppression or inhabitation, who:

have a history with one or more bona fide occult traditions,
are Christian, demonstrate openness to Christ or are actively seeking Christ
seek Christian input on, or solutions for, their situationIt says seeking christian help, not neccessarily actively seeking christianity, though this is an 'option'. It also specifies that seeking Christ actively is optional as long as they are 'open' and seeking input. In my opinion this is very vague and can have a broad range of meaning and application. How do you personally apply this to insure this standard is met? What does 'open' mean to you? Would it be possible to come to that forum as a member based on a statement 'i dont want to be a christian, but i will sit and listen and participate and am willing to hear the name of Christ mentioned'?


Also, do you believe 'mysticism' is occultish, or can you see it applied as an appropriate title for a christian? I note one of the friends of the forum describes themself as a 'christian mystic'. This to me raises many red flags. Can you tell us why a self proclaimed mystic would be allowed to be a part of the forum?

[Father Rick]

Fr Rick
It seems you are misunderstanding my questions, and it also seems you are becoming defensive. I can assure you no one is under attack my friend, my apologies if it seems this way to you.
No... I'm not misunderstanding your questions. Rather, it seems that you are misunderstanding the difference between members of the forum and befrienders... and the roles that each have.

Because of this, your questions are fundamentally flawed.


Heres what i mean, here is the wiki...

It says seeking christian help, not neccessarily actively seeking christianity, though this is an 'option'. It also specifies that seeking Christ actively is optional as long as they are 'open' and seeking input. In my opinion this is very vague and can have a broad range of meaning and application. How do you personally apply this to insure this standard is met? What does 'open' mean to you? Would it be possible to come to that forum as a member based on a statement 'i dont want to be a christian, but i will sit and listen and participate and am willing to hear the name of Christ mentioned'?

Again, it is obvious that you don't understand either the purpose, or the overall genre of the forum.

The vast majority of those who have access to the forum are very solid Christians-- some who have come out of the occult, others who have worked with those who have come out of the occult. There are also some who are just starting the process.

The forum serves a Christian environment, where those who have been (or currently are) involved in the occult can come to get Christian help from Christians who have been there and understand where they are at.

Remember, it's listed under the "mission" category... as it is a mission field.




Also, do you believe 'mysticism' is occultish, or can you see it applied as an appropriate title for a christian? I note one of the friends of the forum describes themself as a 'christian mystic'. This to me raises many red flags. Can you tell us why a self proclaimed mystic would be allowed to be a part of the forum?From your question, it appears that you don't have a lot of theological training. The term "mystic" has been commonly used for many centuries (since the earliest days of the Church) to refer to those Christians who lean toward "mystical experiences"-- that is dreams, visions, prophecies, etc.

While it's not a term that's commonly used in modern American christianity... it's actually rather common (even today) in the east.

[Tenebrae]

I disagree Tonks

I believe it is a very important quesiton

And no membership list has been dragged out. We are asking questions that concern us, i hope you arent implying we have no right for concern...

I can only speak to this one as my experience. There is a reason why my PMs are set to receive from buddies only, I was getting so sick of the nastiness coming from people who claimed to be followers of Christ

I know that others have received similar messages. The reason IMO why the membership list should not be made blatantly open, is because it is highly likely that it would open vulnerable members to all sorts of nastiness

[Lisa0315]

I can only speak to this one as my experience. There is a reason why my PMs are set to receive from buddies only, I was getting so sick of the nastiness coming from people who claimed to be followers of Christ

I know that others have received similar messages. The reason IMO why the membership list should not be made blatantly open, is because it is highly likely that it would open vulnerable members to all sorts of nastiness

Which is half the reason why the private forum is needed.

Lisa

[Tenebrae]

Which is half the reason why the private forum is needed.

Lisa
Thats it.

People with some space, without people saying they must do X, Y and Z and being given the room to find their own solutions, will move foward

[Time2BCounted]

Fr Rick
I dont understand why you imply i am misunderstanding something between forum members and befrienders, and why you wont directly answer this question.
This has nothing to do with a differance between members and befrienders, but refers specificly to members... here it is again, i am asking how YOU define the following parameters to insure the standard, and how you define the standard because it is very broad in scope as written in the wiki...

It says seeking christian help, not neccessarily actively seeking christianity, though this is an 'option'. It also specifies that seeking Christ actively is optional as long as they are 'open' and seeking input. In my opinion this is very vague and can have a broad range of meaning and application. How do you personally apply this to insure this standard is met? What does 'open' mean to you? Would it be possible to come to that forum as a member based on a statement 'i dont want to be a christian, but i will sit and listen and participate and am willing to hear the name of Christ mentioned'?


If you prefer not to answer this its ok, we dont have to imply stupidity on my part ;)

But i would prefer a straight answer


Also could you tell me which conservative members of the board are forum staff or befrienders?

[BelindaP]

I'm breaking lurk to answer this, and then I'm leaving again.

1. We haven't had anyone say they have no intention of being a Christian. Personally, I don't see it happening, as those seeking Christian help with leaving the occult typically are seeking Christ to start with. Otherwise, they'd go elsewhere to seek help. I guess we'll cross that bridge should we ever come to it.

2. How do you define Conservative?

By my definition, I'm a conservative member of staff. Father Rick is conservative. AdJesumPerMariam is conservative.

I know for a fact that many of the lurkers are conservative.

[Tenebrae]

I'm breaking lurk to answer this, and then I'm leaving again.

1. We haven't had anyone say they have no intention of being a Christian. Personally, I don't see it happening, as those seeking Christian help with leaving the occult typically are seeking Christ to start with. Otherwise, they'd go elsewhere to seek help. I guess we'll cross that bridge should we ever come to it.

2. How do you define Conservative?

By my definition, I'm a conservative member of staff. Father Rick is conservative. AdJesumPerMariam is conservative.

I know for a fact that many of the lurkers are conservative.
Ves is anabaptist

Thats quite conservative I think

[Father Rick]

Fr Rick
I dont understand why you imply i am misunderstanding something between forum members and befrienders, and why you wont directly answer this question.
This has nothing to do with a differance between members and befrienders, but refers specificly to members... here it is again, i am asking how YOU define the following parameters to insure the standard, and how you define the standard because it is very broad in scope as written in the wiki...

If you prefer not to answer this its ok, we dont have to imply stupidity on my part ;)

But i would prefer a straight answer

I have answered your question. You just didn't like the answer.

Sorry, if I'm not being overly detailed. That's because there are some things that just aren't that detailed. There are times when a judgement call has to be made. And the staff of the forum will make such a call as is necessary.

So.. now let me ask you a question...

Why do you feel it so necessary to scrutinize the oversight of the forum? It currently has 3 ordained ministers from 3 very different denominational backgrounds (Constance, Macrina, and myself) all overseeing the forum. Do you feel that between the three of us we are incapable or unwilling to maintain a Christian environment? Or that somehow the three of us will be "overrun by the evil satanists"? Considering that between the three of us we probably have 50 years experience in ministry, not to mention many years of theological training... do you have anything additional to add to the mix that has somehow been overlooked?




Also could you tell me which conservative members of the board are forum staff or befrienders?No.. I cannot and will not disclose such information.

Why? Quite simply because it's none of your business.

I know that sounds rude... but it's the truth. There is absolutely nothing that can be beneficial to the forum from you having that information. That's not directed at you personally, but would be true from anyone who is not in some way involved with the forum, either as a member/befriender or as staff supervising it. I'm not saying that you would do anything bad with the information... I'm just saying, your having it would serve no useful purpose.

And my attitude on that would be exactly the same regardless if it were online or if it were in real life.

There is accountability in place already. And lots of it. You can accept that or not, but that's just the way it is.

And I'm certain that the pastor of whichever church you attend would probably be the same way.

[GreenMunchkin]

Sorry... but I don't understand why this discussion is happening in CC. It's not really any of our business, is it? I mean, I had concerns, too, but there's oversight and it's being refined, so why is this discussion taking place in CC? We're not arbiters n stuff.

[Time2BCounted]

I have answered your question. You just didn't like the answer.

Sorry, if I'm not being overly detailed. That's because there are some things that just aren't that detailed. There are times when a judgement call has to be made. And the staff of the forum will make such a call as is necessary.


You arent giving your standard at all. You ARE correct i dont like your answer here... the reason i dont like your answer is because there is none. I think it is a very reasonable question to ask how you interpret the rules and standards since you are directly involved with KEEPING the rules and standard

I will take it then you simply dont desire to answer this one and we will call it good and move on so as to not sink into a quagmire of insult and inuendo


So.. now let me ask you a question...

Why do you feel it so necessary to scrutinize the oversight of the forum? It currently has 3 ordained ministers from 3 very different denominational backgrounds (Constance, Macrina, and myself) all overseeing the forum. Do you feel that between the three of us we are incapable or unwilling to maintain a Christian environment? Or that somehow the three of us will be "overrun by the evil satanists"? Considering that between the three of us we probably have 50 years experience in ministry, not to mention many years of theological training... do you have anything additional to add to the mix that has somehow been overlooked?


No.. I cannot and will not disclose such information.

Why? Quite simply because it's none of your business.

I know that sounds rude... but it's the truth. There is absolutely nothing that can be beneficial to the forum from you having that information. That's not directed at you personally, but would be true from anyone who is not in some way involved with the forum, either as a member/befriender or as staff supervising it. I'm not saying that you would do anything bad with the information... I'm just saying, your having it would serve no useful purpose.


You seem to believe that i am the only one here interested in these questions. The fact is i would guess 90 percent or more here are interested.

If as supporting members of this board, and as people who really do desire deliverance and recovery, we are now being told that this as none of our business, i suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but i disagree and i would wager that if you posted this to the board in general, most everyone including the nonreligious would disagree with you. But i dont begrudge you of your opinion.

the fact is this was not put iup for a general vote before the board, and many of us feel the measures were underhanded at best. But reserving judgement we invited you here to clear up these matters.

Emotional blackmail, hunger strikes, people voicing concerns and objections were just ignored, while at every turn every measure was passed. I know, i was there.

And I'm certain that the pastor of whichever church you attend would probably be the same way.

Church pastors are held accountable by their church.,.. and the people are the church, not the building

I also would say that the following is the opinion of most of the people in this forum

Our RESPONSIBLE options are

1) Have professional licensed councellors, psychiatrists, etc
or
2) Offer Christ
Bearing this in mind, how many working in that forum are professional licensed councellors or psychiatrists? If none then what help can we offer in deliverance if Christ is rejected. He is their ONLY hope imho. Anything less than this is irresponsible imo and in the opinion of many here.

If one is not interested in receiving Christ, but only 'open' possibly to allowing the name to be mentioned in their presence, exactly what help can you offer if there are no professionals? I frankly dont see where you can help in this matter, and many here see this as a hinderance to those who ARE attempting recovery. I dont understand any justification for keeping this forum so private in light of these facts. This is why you are invited, and why i assumed you accepted... to enlighten us.

please do.

How would you address this?

As for staff, Belinda makes claim that the staff is conservative. Would you describe staff as conservative 'politically and morally', or 'religious', or both?

[BelindaP]

Staff are morally and religiously conservative. I can't speak to their political beliefs as they have no bearing on their ability to moderate the forum.

Father Rick has answered ALL your questions. You may not like the answers, but they are there in black and white. And he's right, it's none of your business whether the staff, befrienders or members are conservative or not. Unless you're trying to tell us that a moderate or a liberal isn't a true Christian.

As I suspected, this is turning into a witch hunt. You have your own preconceived notions and aren't going to believe anything a Godly man has told you. Nevermind that he is a priest and an expert in the occult and deliverance. Go ahead and believe what you want. Nothing is going to change your minds anyway. Good day.

[Time2BCounted]

There is no witch hunt lol

Belinda i happen to know many regard you as very liberal

And i suspected that when the questions got hard but honest it would be time to attack and insult the conservative... BUT, im thick skineed and patient :) No problem at all

Paste Fr ricks answer addressing how he interprets the rules and standards please to back your allegation. Otherwise i would suggest that since you turned us down the first time, and Fr Rick agreed to come, please refrain and dont turn this into a debate in this forum. We have a forum for debate.

We are being honest with our questions and observations, and if you are, paste his answer to my question of his interpretation of the rules and standard of the forum

[BelindaP]

Here are my conservative credentials:
I affirm the Nicene Creed--the real one, not the asterisked one
I am a Biblical literalist
I believe abortion is wrong, as is homosexuality

Any other buzz words you'd like the know about?

[GreenMunchkin]

This is beginning to get a little heated, lovelies. Can we dial it back from 11?

:hug::hug:

[MrJim]

Sorry... but I don't understand why this discussion is happening in CC. It's not really any of our business, is it? I mean, I had concerns, too, but there's oversight and it's being refined, so why is this discussion taking place in CC? We're not arbiters n stuff.

And it sounds like it's in good hands. I know Vespasia and Fr. Rick sounds like he's on the ball with things~thanks for coming over to answer questions.:wave:

[Time2BCounted]

Here are my conservative credentials:
I affirm the Nicene Creed--the real one, not the asterisked one
I am a Biblical literalist
I believe abortion is wrong, as is homosexuality

Any other buzz words you'd like the know about?
i dont understand the hostility suddenly coming from yourself and fr rick

Would answering these questions reveal things you perceive others wouldnt approve of or whats up with this?

Lets look at this

We cant get names of members

we cant get names of the friends of the forum

we cant get names of viewers
...but we are expected to just not question anything


Are we being perceived as stupid or not worthy though many of us are supporters of both the site and recovery of occult victims??



We cant ask how the rules are being interpreted... why do you see this as unreasonable?


We cant ask why everything demanded was simply passed while objectors were ignored ot talked over and no vote was taken on ANY of this?

There are friends of the forum who call themselves mystic, which has an occultish connotation...

We cant ask why those rejecting christianity are allowed to participate while christian staff cannot. We see this as a hinderance to those who ARE attempting recovery, so why can we not question this as well


LASTLY you make the allegation i am unreasonable in asking and that fr rick posted an answer as to how he interprets rules... i asked you to post this quote from him explaining how he interprets rules and standards and you have neglected to back your allegation... wheres the quote?

[BelindaP]

i dont understand the hostility suddenly coming from yourself and fr rick
Perhaps it is because you invited him over here, promising it would be friendly. And then when you didn't like the answers, you accused him of bad faith.

Would answering these questions reveal things you perceive others wouldnt approve of or whats up with this?
Yes, it would. It was Erwin's intention to keep the membership private. The only people who can even see the Refuge icon are staff members who bear the icon. Regular members of the forum can't even see them--including Father Rick. That being the case, I'm not about to go listing membership in the public. You can take it up with Erwin or Lee if you don't like that.

Lets look at this

We cant get names of members

we cant get names of the friends of the forum

we cant get names of viewers
...but we are expected to just not question anything
Untrue. You've been allowed to question everything. In fact, you mention it every chance you get out in the forums.


Are we being perceived as stupid or not worthy though many of us are supporters of both the site and recovery of occult victims??
Nobody said you were stupid. Father Rick questioned your theological training because you asked a question about mysticism that made it clear you lack a great deal of theological instruction. That is not to say you are unintelligent, just that you lack that sort of training.



We cant ask how the rules are being interpreted... why do you see this as unreasonable?
I don't see it as unreasonable. However, when you get an answer you don't like, don't keep asking the same question and expect to get a different response. Move on to another question.


We cant ask why everything demanded was simply passed while objectors were ignored ot talked over and no vote was taken on ANY of this?
Again untrue. In fact, most things asked for were granted. The one thing that wasn't granted was for the forum to become public. That seems to be what people can't handle.

There are friends of the forum who call themselves mystic, which has an occultish connotation...
Only to those with limited theological study.

We cant ask why those rejecting christianity are allowed to participate while christian staff cannot. We see this as a hinderance to those who ARE attempting recovery, so why can we not question this as well
Nobody who rejects Christianity can be a member. READ THE WIKI.


LASTLY you make the allegation i am unreasonable in asking and that fr rick posted an answer as to how he interprets rules... i asked you to post this quote from him explaining how he interprets rules and standards and you have neglected to back your allegation... wheres the quote?

You are right on this one. He didn't explicitly answer that one question. I'm not going to speak for him, but my guess is that he was satisfied with the answer I gave you.

[Father Rick]

You arent giving your standard at all. You ARE correct i dont like your answer here... the reason i dont like your answer is because there is none. I think it is a very reasonable question to ask how you interpret the rules and standards since you are directly involved with KEEPING the rules and standard

I will take it then you simply dont desire to answer this one and we will call it good and move on so as to not sink into a quagmire of insult and inuendo
Once again... in what way does the interpretation/enforcement of rules in a forum of which you are not a part affect you?

Since I don't regularly hang out in CC, I don't have an interest in how the CC wiki, CC fsr's or how those fsr's are enforced. Why? Because I'm not part of this particular forum.

Do you have an interest in joining BeMi?

You seem to believe that i am the only one here interested in these questions. The fact is i would guess 90 percent or more here are interested.While you make this assertion, as you did your initial pm to me about starting this thread that "several people" had questions, the reality is that only about 4 people have asked any questions... and all but you have had their questions satisfactorily answered right away.

Since we're now on page 6 of this thread, and you are basically the only person asking questions-- and then challenging/debating the answers (even though you said such would not happen), I have to question the accuracy of such an assertion.



If as supporting members of this board, and as people who really do desire deliverance and recovery, we are now being told that this as none of our business, i suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but i disagree and i would wager that if you posted this to the board in general, most everyone including the nonreligious would disagree with you. But i dont begrudge you of your opinion.Well, as someone who has both pastored and counselled many people, I can say quite certainly that unless you have a personal relationship with a person-- then that person's recovery is none of your business.

Now... if you take the time to build relationship and earn the right to speak into the person's life-- well that's a whole different story.

And just because you attend the same church as someone going through recovery doesn't automatically make their recovery your business. There will be those in your church who have earned the right to speak into that person's life... and those whose responsibility it is to oversee the wellbeing of the church (such as the pastors)... but broadcasting the person's process of recovery can actually be quite harmful to all involved-- the person recovering as well as those who really don't need to be exposed to some things.

the fact is this was not put iup for a general vote before the board, and many of us feel the measures were underhanded at best. But reserving judgement we invited you here to clear up these matters.
Sorry, but it appears that you did not reserve judgement. You asked several questions that were answered and then asked additional questions, not based on the answers given but on your pre-conceived ideas that actually directly contradicted the answers given.

If you really were reserving judgement, then this would not have occurred.

Maybe you didn't even realize this is what you had done. But if you will go back and review the thread you will see that it is the case.


Now, as to issues being put up to the board... well, that's not quite true. There was public discussion, public wikis, etc. There were actually several public threads, votes, etc. Now, if you didn't know they were there... ok. But that doesn't mean they didn't happen.




Emotional blackmail, hunger strikes, people voicing concerns and objections were just ignored, while at every turn every measure was passed. I know, i was there.
Again, this is not the case. In fact, the staff (all the way to Erwin) bent over backwards to pay attention to and address the concerns of ALL involved. In fact, BeMi is the ONLY forum I know of that was opened... then closed so that issues could be addressed... then finally re-opened.

Church pastors are held accountable by their church.,.. and the people are the church, not the buildingThis is true... but they are not held accountable by the congregation of a different church within their denomination.

This is what is being asked here. Not a matter of a forum being accountable within itself... being accountable to the staff of that forum... being accountable to the Chaplaincy team (which NO other forum here has such assigned input). BUT also being accountable to all the other people in all the other forums who are in no way involved.

By that standard, CC should have to answer to WWMC, and only be allowed to make/enforce rules that the members of WWMC (which is certainly the most liberal bunch here on Foru.ms) approve.

And unless you are willing to accept the exact same standard-- and have the WWMC folks have the right to set guidelines and provide oversight for CC, then you should allow BeMi to have the same rights.

I also would say that the following is the opinion of most of the people in this forum

Our RESPONSIBLE options are

1) Have professional licensed councellors, psychiatrists, etc
or
2) Offer Christ
Bearing this in mind, how many working in that forum are professional licensed councellors or psychiatrists?
Well, there are actually several who are in the mental health profession and/or trained counselors who are part of the forum. In fact, I'd say that the membership of BeMi probably has more education/training in these areas (as well as theological training) proportionately than any other location on Foru.ms.

However, that is not the role in which they are functioning.
If none then what help can we offer in deliverance if Christ is rejected. He is their ONLY hope imho. Anything less than this is irresponsible imo and in the opinion of many here.

If one is not interested in receiving Christ, but only 'open' possibly to allowing the name to be mentioned in their presence, exactly what help can you offer if there are no professionals? I frankly dont see where you can help in this matter, and many here see this as a hinderance to those who ARE attempting recovery. Again, you say you speak the "opinion of many". If participation in this thread is any indication, it would appear you actually speak for a relative few.

Now, I do agree that Christ is the only answer for someone to ever be able to break out of the bondages in which Satan may have them bound. However, I also know that Christ deals with each of us differently... and it is not MY job to be the Holy Spirit. Rather, my job is to share the love of Christ, to demonstrate His goodness, grace and mercy to those in bondage-- as scriptures says, "It is the goodness of God that brings men to repentance". And then, allow Him to draw them to Himself.



I dont understand any justification for keeping this forum so private in light of these facts. This is why you are invited, and why i assumed you accepted... to enlighten us.

please do.

How would you address this?Simple...

It is obvious that you do not recognize that those who have been hurt and abused don't like to publicly expose their wounds where anyone who wants to can jab at them.

It is obvious that you do not recognize that the three ordained pastors, as well as the other staff who are strong Christians are seeking to impact people's lives for Christ.

It is obvious that you do not recognize that when even staff such as yourself cannot keep your word that those who may be vulnerable need to be protected.

Time2BeCounted... let me speak very bluntly here.

You asked me to the answer you questions here, which I have done to the best of my ability. In fact, I've spent a greater part of a day doing so-- neglecting real life obligations to my work and parish to do so.

And while you repeatedly assured me there would be no debate, etc. you are the one who has done more debating, more demanding, more interrogating than anyone else here. It is apparent to me that you cannot be trusted to do what you promise-- even in a thread about the forum. So why should someone who behaves in such a way be allowed to actually have access to those who have already been hurt/wounded?

Quite frankly, your attitude in this thread is exactly the reason why such a forum cannot be public.

Your insistence that YOU be answered... even though you have no relationship with those who are seeking ministry smacks of selfishness (and pride)... it in no way reflects an attitude that is conducive to picking up those who are broken and hurting.

I asked you before what you had to add to the forum to help? You ignored the question. It seems that you don't want to be a helper to those who are recovering-- you just want to make certain that you can know their business.

Such a thing makes me want to say "Ichabod". Returnd to your posts and see where you have suggested anything supportive of those who want ministry, or even supportive of those who are seeking to minister to others.

I challenge to ask yourself. When dealing with His sheep who are broken, should we act as a wolf biting them, ask God to smite them... or should we try to support those who are trying to help them?





As for staff, Belinda makes claim that the staff is conservative. Would you describe staff as conservative 'politically and morally', or 'religious', or both?I'm a Republican... rather conservative morally... and you'll have to define "religiously conservative", as most would consider me so... but that is a really broad question.




John1and1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[Time2BCounted]

You are right on this one. He didn't explicitly answer that one question. I'm not going to speak for him, but my guess is that he was satisfied with the answer I gave you.

The insult and inuendo i will avoid so as to be peaceful... thank you for the admission, however, thus far its been more than one. Neither here nor there though

[BelindaP]

Please list the questions not answered. Perhaps one got overlooked.

[Tenebrae]

i

We cant get names of members

we cant get names of the friends of the forum

As previously stated, due to the abuse that members have taken from other members of this forum, none of us are keen to have a public membership. I have had to make my PMS from buddies only, because of the vitriol I was recieving in PMs and I was not the only one to recieve this poison, staff and befrienders have been labeled as witch lovers, operating under satanic influence. The list goes on.

There is not much that I wont budge on, however to make a public membership list runs the very real likelihood of subjecting these people (some who have been violated and abused by members of churches) to further abuse. I have no problem if this information is shared among staff who need the informtion

Time, this may be something thatwould have never crossed your mind, if thats the case then kudo. However not all christians have your level of integrity, and the members of Beth Miqlat, need to be protected against those few

Fair sucks IMO, however sometimes the actions of a few do end up dictating the course of action

we cant get names of viewers
...but we are expected to just not question anything untrue. lurkers are allowed to question infact they are encouraged to address their concerns either with the members of BeMi or the staff.

If there is a rule we are not adhering to, then we want to know.


Are we being perceived as stupid or not worthy though many of us are supporters of both the site and recovery of occult victims??no



We cant ask how the rules are being interpreted... why do you see this as unreasonable?

I believe that several comments in the CR thread address what lurkers thought of how the rules were being enforced. In particular from post 90 (http://foru.ms/t6236167&page=9) on, these posts were made by people IMO, who were most definately neutral. If you would like to know more than ask them

However as I keep saying, if a lurker sees something they consider to violate a rule, then please, address it. We are hoping to get a lurkers thread up and running, which will give lurkers the opportunity to address their concerns in BeMi....... However if we are inadvertainly breaking rules, then we want to know. We want to see this forum being around for a long time and able to help more people

[Time2BCounted]

Once again... in what way does the interpretation/enforcement of rules in a forum of which you are not a part affect you?

Since I don't regularly hang out in CC, I don't have an interest in how the CC wiki, CC fsr's or how those fsr's are enforced. Why? Because I'm not part of this particular forum.

Do you have an interest in joining BeMi?

Yes i do have an interest in joining, thank you. I could join as staff or a friend of the forum because i have a genuine interest in seeing actual recovery. Would you be willing to accept one who is as conservative as myself?



Now, as to issues being put up to the board... well, that's not quite true. There was public discussion, public wikis, etc. There were actually several public threads, votes, etc. Now, if you didn't know they were there... ok. But that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

You seem to be misrepresenting the facts. I and many more WERE there, it was NEVER put to a vote and we were talked right over while hunger strikes were the rule of the day and everything suggested was passed. This is NOT the way to do things, and when they are done in this way it appears as strongarming.

Frankly many are concerned that this wont aid recovery at all, but in the end only serves to be a tronghold for satanic activity here, closely guarded and beyond scrutiny. We were hoping you could alleviate such suspicions but thus far imho the answers seem to only solidify this opinion.



Again, this is not the case. In fact, the staff (all the way to Erwin) bent over backwards to pay attention to and address the concerns of ALL involved. In fact, BeMi is the ONLY forum I know of that was opened... then closed so that issues could be addressed... then finally re-opened.


If you really believe this to be the case i would challenge you to put it to a vote in the wiki discussion area today...

I guarantee you will lose. Are you willing to do this?

This is what is being asked here. Not a matter of a forum being accountable within itself... being accountable to the staff of that forum... being accountable to the Chaplaincy team (which NO other forum here has such assigned input). BUT also being accountable to all the other people in all the other forums who are in no way involved.

By that standard, CC should have to answer to WWMC, and only be allowed to make/enforce rules that the members of WWMC (which is certainly the most liberal bunch here on Foru.ms) approve.

And unless you are willing to accept the exact same standard-- and have the WWMC folks have the right to set guidelines and provide oversight for CC, then you should allow BeMi to have the same rights.

We arent asking they be accountable to us. We are saying that WE ARE accountable to everyone in that here our dirty laundry is open for everyone to see, and we DO answer for it. Again i challenge you to live by your quote ablove and bring your forum to the same standard as ours... if you arent willing to do this put it to an open vote... if you arent willing to do this i suggest the whole matter is extremely suspicios as i see the satanic activity and posters increasing on this board daily.

We see the possibility of people actually being HINDERED the way things are presently designed, and want to insure that this isnt the case.

Tell me
In conservative circles, how is mysticism regarded? I believe you are a smart enough man to know it is regarded as occultish, and by disagreeing, you reveal that you are not religiously conservative. And if belinda regards mysticism as 'christian' then i suggest she is misdefining either mysticism or conservative christian, the 2 dont mix


Well, there are actually several who are in the mental health profession and/or trained counselors who are part of the forum. In fact, I'd say that the membership of BeMi probably has more education/training in these areas (as well as theological training) proportionately than any other location on Foru.ms.

However, that is not the role in which they are functioning.
Again, you say you speak the "opinion of many". If participation in this thread is any indication, it would appear you actually speak for a relative few.

Now, I do agree that Christ is the only answer for someone to ever be able to break out of the bondages in which Satan may have them bound. However, I also know that Christ deals with each of us differently... and it is not MY job to be the Holy Spirit. Rather, my job is to share the love of Christ, to demonstrate His goodness, grace and mercy to those in bondage-- as scriptures says, "It is the goodness of God that brings men to repentance". And then, allow Him to draw them to Himself.


Are all members presently 'christian'?

There is in your forum a poster whos avatar is a demon, and declares that everyone else is the cause for their problems. I have talked to this person myself in gentle loving ways and was told repentance was nothing more than platitudes. This doesnt seem to me like someone accepting or open to Christ except in such a broad definition as to just being able to put up with the name


Again, are you so confidant and above board brother, that you are willing to put this to an open vote and letEVERYONE decide?

If you think its just me youll have no problem with this... humor me and see how many are represented by these questions brother... brotherly challenge in the name of Jesus

[GreenMunchkin]

Moved to the Debate sub-forum.

[BelindaP]

You are free to apply, and you will probably get the same answer that many applicants who apply as befrienders get. We'll wait for you to do so.

New forums are never put to a vote, except by the prospective members of the new forum. And, yes, people were talked over in that thread. However, meetings were held to discuss the issue. Just because you weren't privy to them, it doesn't mean they weren't valid.

If you have accusations about a specific member, then foward them to the appropriate staff. Stop trying to spread gossip, as we all know whom you're talking about.

Perhaps you need to do some theological study before you start labeling Christian mysticism as being of the occult. It may not be accepted in American fundamentalist quarters, but it has been an accepted practice within the Church for 2000 years. I guess that goes back to your definition of conservative. I tend to think in terms of millenia, rather than the last 50 years when it comes to conservatism.

And, no. We aren't going to put it to a vote. The forum was approved by the site owner in conjunction with the pastoral team. Nuff said.

[MrJim]

In conservative circles, how is mysticism regarded? I believe you are a smart enough man to know it is regarded as occultish, and by disagreeing, you reveal that you are not religiously conservative.


There are millions of conservative Catholic & Orthodox folks that would disagree with this T2, and I also accept that there is much to Christianity beyond the typical Western scholastic approach~not all mystery has been solved nor understood. I would be humbled to sit at the feet of a starets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starets)...

[Lisa0315]

Okay, I am going to say this as nicely as I know how. I am very passionate about this subject but I love all of you and I do not want to offend anyone.

We speak of a powerful God but we have no faith that God cannot protect this forum and its members from Satanic influence.

We speak of a roaring gape-mouthed devil who seeks to destroy, but we have no real fear of him.

I caught a glimpse this past weekend of what Moriah endures nearly every single moment of her life. I do not say that lightly and I do not exaggerate.

Once in awhile she gets to have her "own" thoughts. The real Moriah without any influence.

Instead of worrying about the politics and the format of Beth Miqlat, we need to be covering these people with prayer. God forgive you if all you care about is what is fair, what is controlled, and what is accountable. I am telling you that this needs to be placed into God's hands and the quibbling over how this is accomplished needs to be stopped.

Every time people have truly prayed about Moriah and the Refuge forum, their positions have always been reversed.

The unrepentant Satanist on this board was denied entrance by Moriah herself.

If Moriah told you that she had no desire to seek Christ, ten minutes into the future, you may get a different answer from her on that. Her thoughts are rarely her own. Can you even imagine?

Let me give you a glimpse. This is an analogy only!!!!!
This is not Moriah's experience. Got it?

What if one day your mind was filled with pornographic images of the vilest kind? What if, no matter how hard you tried, you could not get those images out of your mind. Day and night, day and night, you could not sleep, eat, or function. You lived in a constant state of sexual arousal and nothing appeased it. If you gave into the fantasies in your mind, it gave no relief. If you fought against the perversions in your mind, still no relief. This goes on for days, weeks, months, and now years. You have tried everything and nothing works. Your mind is filled with every vile sexual fantasy there is, homosexual, pedophilia, even beastiality, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

You seek help. You pray. You talk to others. There is no hope. You think of killing yourself but the thing that prevents you is that you will no longer have the fantasies. You hate the sexual filth in your mind but like a drug addiction, you have now become a slave to it. Day and night, day and night, never ending, it goes on and on and on and on. You have lost all family and friends because of it. You do not leave your house for fear that you will give into some of the more violent fantasies.

Once in a great while, you have a moment, perhaps, one whole day, when your mind is clear. Hope surges through you and you wonder if maybe it is over forever. That hope does not last long because the unending lust returns with a fury almost punishing you for having a short time without it. The lust and the peace cycle over and over again. During the peaceful moments, never knowing when it will end, you seek out others who have the same problem. You find a few who have suffered as you have and have been delivered!!!!

There IS hope! The lust returns but you forge just a bit of control over it as you cling to that hope that others have endured the same and recovered. You fight, you scream, you long for the peace. Sometimes, you just give in to the lust, revel in it. There seem to be so many against you, why not just be what you are. How could God do this to you if He truly loves you? Why even try? The peace returns and a handful of people tell you that it is really, really true that God really does love you and wants to deliver you. You try to believe it, you want to believe it, but you cannot always believe it when you are in the grips of the agony of this excrutiating pleasure.

Replace the lust with demons of any kind of your imagination, and THAT is what Moriah needs to be delivered from.

Forget the HOW. Let God worry about that. PLEASE! I am begging you to pray on this and LET GOD BE GOD!


Lisa

[Time2BCounted]

You are free to apply, and you will probably get the same answer that many applicants who apply as befrienders get. We'll wait for you to do so.

Could you send me the link for the application, and can you tell me how long it will take to be approved or disapproved? Also related to this, by what standard will i be allowed or disallowed?

Also Is honest concern, councelling and postoring experience and actual occult recovery considered in approval or disapproval?

. And, yes, people were talked over in that thread. However, meetings were held to discuss the issue. Just because you weren't privy to them, it doesn't mean they weren't valid.

If people trying to participate, are ignored and talked over, and only those in favor are hidden away in a private meeting to hammer out the issues, you are not justified. We cant even discuss a definition of christian in this forum without harrassment. To disregard so many voices is certianly not wise and this is itself gives rise to many suspicions. As supporting members every voice should be considered, or even just members every voice should be considered and this certainly didnt happen

If you have accusations about a specific member, then foward them to the appropriate staff. Stop trying to spread gossip, as we all know whom you're talking about.

Staff is already aware i am sure. Also i wont be baited here, i have more integrity than to just name a name unless i have approval. Voicing concerns over those who arent repentant, and yet a part of that forum, and the hinderances this can pose on those actually TRYING to recover is only reasonable, and in the opinion of many it needs addressed properly... it REALLY DOES look like a stronghold that is guarded moreso than a place to recover, especially given the fact this member is included. Only someone turning a blind eye to all the unknown factors could loopk at what we CAN see and not quesiton it.

Perhaps you need to do some theological study before you start labeling Christian mysticism as being of the occult. It may not be accepted in American fundamentalist quarters, but it has been an accepted practice within the Church for 2000 years. I guess that goes back to your definition of conservative. I tend to think in terms of millenia, rather than the last 50 years when it comes to conservatism.

This is like the 3rd time my intelligence and experience is insulted in this thread, but i am thick skinned and will overlook comments you have no basis to make.

And, no. We aren't going to put it to a vote. The forum was approved by the site owner in conjunction with the pastoral team. Nuff said.


I didnt think you had the confidance to do so either, and this shows you know its more than just me and that i am just a voice for many thoughts here

You really need to consider what we are left to look at and help us come to an understanding, or else we have no choice but to protest

[Father Rick]

Yes i do have an interest in joining, thank you. I could join as staff or a friend of the forum because i have a genuine interest in seeing actual recovery. Would you be willing to accept one who is as conservative as myself?

What has being conservative (or not conservative) got to do with anything? Unless you're trying to present some kind of an agenda.

Such has not been mentioned in any way... nor is such mentioned in the wiki in any way.

Can you follow the guidelines for the forum? If so... and you are willing to build relationships with the members... then I would suggest you begin to get to know some of the posters over in BSA as a first step to joining.
You seem to be misrepresenting the facts. I and many more WERE there, it was NEVER put to a vote and we were talked right over while hunger strikes were the rule of the day and everything suggested was passed. This is NOT the way to do things, and when they are done in this way it appears as strongarming.
Ummm... first, not all forums reach a consensus in the wiki in exactly the same way-- as long as they reach the consensus they are given freedom to reach it in the manner best for them.

And this was done publicly.

To deny such is simply to be dishonest.
Frankly many are concerned that this wont aid recovery at all, but in the end only serves to be a tronghold for satanic activity here, closely guarded and beyond scrutiny. We were hoping you could alleviate such suspicions but thus far imho the answers seem to only solidify this opinion.
Again... I don't see "many" posting here, I see "you".

But I should ask you, are you wanting to go on record that you believe that the three ordained ministers (as well as the other staff) are helping to build a "stronghold for Satanic activity"?

Either come right out and state such... or admit that they are not.

You continue to make the same allegations... argue/debate the same points... say the same things over and again. Despite the fact that not only have I answered your questions as you have asked... but also other staff who have viewed the forums have attested that I am being truthful with you.




If you really believe this to be the case i would challenge you to put it to a vote in the wiki discussion area today...

I guarantee you will lose. Are you willing to do this?

Whatever....

You keep beating the same dead horse. It was done publicly... it was approved... deal with it.

We arent asking they be accountable to us. We are saying that WE ARE accountable to everyone in that here our dirty laundry is open for everyone to see, and we DO answer for it. Again i challenge you to live by your quote ablove and bring your forum to the same standard as ours... if you arent willing to do this put it to an open vote... if you arent willing to do this i suggest the whole matter is extremely suspicios as i see the satanic activity and posters increasing on this board daily.I guess you still haven't realized that there are SEVERAL private recovery forums... and that by their very function, these forums remain private.

I also guess you haven't realized that some things should remain private. Would you like to go talk about something personal with your pastor, or an accountability partner, and then have that person stand up on Sunday morning and announce it to your whole church? Of course not...

Yet you are insisting others subject themselves to the same thing.

If you don't get it... then I guess you just don't get it...


We see the possibility of people actually being HINDERED the way things are presently designed, and want to insure that this isnt the case.You mean "you" see... again, you don't seem to have a lot of support here-- from all those people who claim to see things the same as you.

But I ask you... on what do you base such an point of view? On your years of experience as a pastor and counselor (which several who are overseeing the forum have)?

What are your qualifications, on any level, to provide such an assessment?

Or are you willing to admit that there are those here who have worked in this area for many years who might actually have a little bit more insight than you do in this area?

Tell me
In conservative circles, how is mysticism regarded? I believe you are a smart enough man to know it is regarded as occultish, and by disagreeing, you reveal that you are not religiously conservative. And if belinda regards mysticism as 'christian' then i suggest she is misdefining either mysticism or conservative christian, the 2 dont mix
Please, don't twist my words.

I neither agreed nor disagreed with you... I simply stated that you obviously don't have a lot of theological training, or you would know how the word is used. (which you obviously didn't-- and obviously still don't)

Do you believe that demons are real, personal, spiritual beings which may inhabit a person? Your posts seem to indicate you do. Well, guess what... you're bordering on, if not outright, "mystical",--for any experiences/encounters with spiritual beings (angels or demons) is, by definition, "mystical". Do you believe that demons can have a direct influence on people? If so then you are clearly "mystical".


Are all members presently 'christian'?Well... members are not required to be Christian..

Although all the befrienders and staff are.
There is in your forum a poster whos avatar is a demon, and declares that everyone else is the cause for their problems. I have talked to this person myself in gentle loving ways and was told repentance was nothing more than platitudes. This doesnt seem to me like someone accepting or open to Christ except in such a broad definition as to just being able to put up with the nameWell, if you are referring to the person I believe you are (based on description of avatar), I can categorically say that your representation of the person is wrong... and is in fact defaming and against the rules of THIS forum.

The person in question actually is quite accepting of responsibility of their own actions... and is very open/receptive of Christ.

Again, are you so confidant and above board brother, that you are willing to put this to an open vote and letEVERYONE decide?

If you think its just me youll have no problem with this... humor me and see how many are represented by these questions brother... brotherly challenge in the name of JesusIt's not my decision to make...

And actually... it was already done...

If you didn't give input, then that's your own fault. If you did give input and were outvoted... well then that just shows that there's not as many as agree with you as you claim.


Now... with all that said... I end with this.


You have NOT kept your word. Your behavior in this thread, even after having it brought to your attention, is that of debating/arguing even after you repetitively promised you would not do such. Clearly, you are not a man of your word.

As such, I personally would not trust you to be part of BeMi... since you have proven that you are dishonest/not trustworthy in your postings/behavior.

I will not continue a debate with you... as you clearly have an agenda in this thread (despited your statements to the contrary). The old adage "your actions speaks louder than your words" is quite appropo here... especially since your actions are your words.

And as such, based on your deceitfulness in your actions with me, if you request access, I would recommend against it (for whatever that may be worth). Sorry... but I don't like to build friendships with people I can't trust.

[BelindaP]

You may apply by PMing any of the forum moderators. At this point that would include boughtwithaprice, meh, me, and nobility. One's honesty is always considered in the applications, and I know we will have a few things to discuss privately with that regard. Go ahead and apply, and I will send you the questionnaire.

[Tonks]

If you want to know the answers to these questions perhaps you should just ask for access to the forum - though I'm not sure if they give access to people that have not completed their training as they're not technically staff yet. However, based upon other previous discourses I really don't think that the OP desires understanding...just (yet another) modern-day Salem.

Regarding whether or not "mysticism" is compatible with conservative christianity...I suggest you study the history of the ascetics and monastic movement which started proximate to the death of Christ.

Let me leave you with a few things to reflect upon...and hopefully they will guide you in your discovery of conservative theology...which is far broader and deeper than anything I've seen presented here...

Those who seek humility should bear in mind the three following
things: that they are the worst of sinners, that they are the most
despicable of all creatures since their state is an unnatural one,
and that they are even more pitiable than the demons, since they
are slaves to the demons. You will also profit if you say this to
yourself: how do I know what or how many other people's sins are,
or whether they are greater than or equal to my own? In our
ignorance you and I , my soul, are worse than all men, we are dust
and ashes under their feet. How can I not regard myself as more
despicable than all other creatures, for they act in accordance
with the nature they have been given, while I, owing to my
innumerable sins, am in a state contrary to nature.

St. Gregory of Sinai

The knowledge of the Cross is concealed in the sufferings of the
Cross.

St. Isaac the Syrian

We are told to shake the dust from our feet when the Good News does not take root in soil and produce fruit. As such, please remove my membership from the CCC rolls immediately.

[Lisa0315]

If you want to know the answers to these questions perhaps you should just ask for access to the forum - though I'm not sure if they give access to people that have not completed their training as they're not technically staff yet. However, based upon other previous discourses I really don't think that the OP desires understanding...just (yet another) modern-day Salem.

Regarding whether or not "mysticism" is compatible with conservative christianity...I suggest you study the history of the ascetics and monastic movement which started proximate to the death of Christ.

Let me leave you with a few things to reflect upon...and hopefully they will guide you in your discovery of conservative theology...which is far broader and deeper than anything I've seen presented here...

Those who seek humility should bear in mind the three following
things: that they are the worst of sinners, that they are the most
despicable of all creatures since their state is an unnatural one,
and that they are even more pitiable than the demons, since they
are slaves to the demons. You will also profit if you say this to
yourself: how do I know what or how many other people's sins are,
or whether they are greater than or equal to my own? In our
ignorance you and I , my soul, are worse than all men, we are dust
and ashes under their feet. How can I not regard myself as more
despicable than all other creatures, for they act in accordance
with the nature they have been given, while I, owing to my
innumerable sins, am in a state contrary to nature.

St. Gregory of Sinai

The knowledge of the Cross is concealed in the sufferings of the
Cross.

St. Isaac the Syrian

We are told to shake the dust from our feet when the Good News does not take root in soil and produce fruit. As such, please remove my membership from the CCC rolls immediately.

Oh, Tonks. We need you here. "I" need you here. Will you reconsider? Please? How can love conquer if love leaves?

Lisa

[Hentenza]

This thread was opened under the premise of no debate. There is debate.

Closing for staff review.

[edb19]

Closing permanently at OP's request.

edie (edb19)