Vegetarianism

[TomUK]

I am something of a meat fan. I start feeling weak if i've not had any meat for a couple of days. As far as i'm aware the biblical support for eating meat has always been quite strong. However i was reading a book a while ago which said in heaven we will all be back to vegetarians, just as Adam and Eve were in the garden. The scriptural support offered were things like the passages in Isaiah that speak of the lion sleeping with the lamb etc.

If such an interpretation is true then surely we all should be trying to live in that manner today?

[haulpak]

Hi Tom

I have just been reading about 'Olive leaf extract' and the health benefits of it.

It seems like the biblical tree is very useful.

[Albion]

I am something of a meat fan. I start feeling weak if i've not had any meat for a couple of days. As far as i'm aware the biblical support for eating meat has always been quite strong. However i was reading a book a while ago which said in heaven we will all be back to vegetarians, just as Adam and Eve were in the garden. The scriptural support offered were things like the passages in Isaiah that speak of the lion sleeping with the lamb etc.

If such an interpretation is true then surely we all should be trying to live in that manner today?

"If such an interpretation is true" is the key point here.

But BTW, what would the lion sleeping with the lamb have to do with anything? That concerns a future age quite unlike this one in many ways, not this time in which we live and for whom we have been given scriptural guidance.

Jesus called fishermen to be his closest followers, gave them great catches of fish, made analogies between fishing for fish and fishing for men's souls, never criticised their profession...and we're supposed to think that vegetarianism is his way for us? I don't think so.

[TomUK]

But BTW, what would the lion sleeping with the lamb have to do with anything? That concerns a future age quite unlike this one in many ways, not this time in which we live and for whom we have been given scriptural guidance.



Certainly the kingdom hasn't yet arrived but surely we should still be doing everything possible to live as kingdom people? Just because eating meat isn't outlawed now, if that's the way that it's going to be after Christ's return then i don't really see why we shouldn't get ready for that day already.

[Albion]

Certainly the kingdom hasn't yet arrived but surely we should still be doing everything possible to live as kingdom people?

And what would that mean in this case--lie down yourself with lions now that the millennium has arrived? That's just not how to read such passages of scripture IMO, but of course it's up to you and I'm just answering your question.

[ Just because eating meat isn't outlawed now, if that's the way that it's going to be after Christ's return then i don't really see why we shouldn't get ready for that day already.

But I don't see anything in the Bible that is calling us to make that part of our lifestyle. Jesus clearly was not a vegetarian, and that speaks louder to me. Besides, don't you think that much of this langage is not literal? I mean, the lion will probably not be lying around in the field with sheep instead of his own kind every day when that time comes. It is obviously a reference to peacefulness.

Now THAT, it seems to me, might be something more likely of being applied to our own times and lives, if this is what you are interested in. And it doesn't require deciding which part of the Bible to follow. IOW, peace is a concept that is held out to us as an ideal throughout the books of the Bible.

[karen freeinchristman]

Certainly the kingdom hasn't yet arrived but surely we should still be doing everything possible to live as kingdom people? Just because eating meat isn't outlawed now, if that's the way that it's going to be after Christ's return then i don't really see why we shouldn't get ready for that day already.
You go right ahead, Tom. I don't feel spiritually mature enough yet to do so! Besides, I have a beef casserole in the oven for tonight...

[dukifluff]

im a vegi =)

maybe god wants us to enjoy meat?

[karen freeinchristman]

I'm sure God finds it acceptable for people to be vegies if they choose; after all - it's not what goes in that makes us 'unclean', it's what comes out of us that can be unpleasing to God.

I've often wanted to make the switch to vegetarianism, because I think my digestion would probably benefit from it, but I find it too hard to switch my cooking style. We probably eat vegetarian about 2 or 3 times a week, though.

[TomUK]

You go right ahead, Tom. I don't feel spiritually mature enough yet to do so! Besides, I have a beef casserole in the oven for tonight...

Don't get me wrong, the thought of being veggie is terrifying (though it probably wouldn't do me too much harm considering my love of a good sausage sandwich). I was just wondering whether it is an ideal we should all be striving for now.

[PaladinValer]

Vegetarianism is at least more appealing than being truly carnivorous IMO.

All three of my sisters went through a vegetarian phase. Of course, it isn't always a phase and the ethical concerns that stem from these people are issues that Christians should address: while we reject the Jewish dietary codes, should we not treat our animal foodstock with greater dignity? Were they not declared to be "good" by God in Genesis 1?

I believe it is an issue of conscience: can you live a typical omnivorous lifestyle while knowing what often happens to our livestock? And if you can, do you at least do something about promoting the dignity of other animal species? If not, how far can you affordably and dietarily slide into vegetarianism? There are, after all, different shades, ranging from the refraining of just one or two kinds of animal product to being a vegan.

[haulpak]

Don't get me wrong, the thought of being veggie is terrifying (though it probably wouldn't do me too much harm considering my love of a good sausage sandwich). I was just wondering whether it is an ideal we should all be striving for now.

I would have great diet difficulties if I were deprived of Bangers and Mash with Guinness Gravy!!!!!

Wheres the MGM Lion when you need him!!!!

*Roar* (Best lion impersonation).

[Albion]

Don't get me wrong, the thought of being veggie is terrifying (though it probably wouldn't do me too much harm considering my love of a good sausage sandwich). I was just wondering whether it is an ideal we should all be striving for now.

I'd say no, but OTOH, I think that we'd all be better off if we ate less meat. So a meat-lover probably would help his health by doing what Karen describes...and we could view that theologically, feeling that keeping our bodies in good shape is morally right to do.

[haulpak]

Don't get me wrong, the thought of being veggie is terrifying (though it probably wouldn't do me too much harm considering my love of a good sausage sandwich). I was just wondering whether it is an ideal we should all be striving for now.

I don't know if the sausage qualifys.

Isn't it the "Emulsified High Fat Offal Tube"????

[karen freeinchristman]

Vegetarianism is at least more appealing than being truly carnivorous IMO.

All three of my sisters went through a vegetarian phase. Of course, it isn't always a phase and the ethical concerns that stem from these people are issues that Christians should address: while we reject the Jewish dietary codes, should we not treat our animal foodstock with greater dignity? Were they not declared to be "good" by God in Genesis 1?

I believe it is an issue of conscience: can you live a typical omnivorous lifestyle while knowing what often happens to our livestock? And if you can, do you at least do something about promoting the dignity of other animal species? If not, how far can you affordably and dietarily slide into vegetarianism? There are, after all, different shades, ranging from the refraining of just one or two kinds of animal product to being a vegan.
Yeah, I really agree with you here, PV. It is important to me to buy free-range products as often as possible. But I could do better.

[longhair75]

Friend PV wrote:
All three of my sisters went through a vegetarian phase. Of course, it isn't always a phase and the ethical concerns that stem from these people are issues that Christians should address: while we reject the Jewish dietary codes, should we not treat our animal foodstock with greater dignity? Were they not declared to be "good" by God in Genesis 1?

At two very dark periods in my life I worked in the meat industry. The animals are slaughtered in a humane manor, but there is very little dignity in watching a large animal turned into meat products.

The rumors of poor sanitation are not really true, but mostly, you do not want to know what it is like to work in a slaughter house.

[karen freeinchristman]

Friend PV wrote:


At two very dark periods in my life I worked in the meat industry. The animals are slaughtered in a humane manor, but there is very little dignity in watching a large animal turned into meat products.

The rumors of poor sanitation are not really true, but mostly, you do not want to know what it is like to work in a slaughter house.
Was this experience successful in turning you vegetarian, lh?

[longhair75]

Not at all. I live in Omaha, Nebraksa Beef steak capitol of the world!! ;o)

My last slaughter house job was running the tongue saw.......

[karen freeinchristman]

Not at all. I live in Omaha, Nebraksa Beef steak capitol of the world!! ;o)

My last slaughter house job was running the tongue saw.......
My kids like to eat tongue as a sandwich meat. :sick: It's kind of popular here in the UK.

[longhair75]

I spent sixty hours a week at a band saw standing in ankle deep, nearly freezing water sawing the throat meat from beef tongues. I tossed the throat meat onto a conveyor that went to the trim guys and the tongue to the guy who washed and packaged it for the freezer. Most of the tongue we packaged was shipped frozen to a distributer in Belgium.

[karen freeinchristman]

I spent sixty hours a week at a band saw standing in ankle deep, nearly freezing water sawing the throat meat from beef tongues. I tossed the throat meat onto a conveyor that went to the trim guys and the tongue to the guy who washed and packaged it for the freezer. Most of the tongue we packaged was shipped frozen to a distributer in Belgium.
Wow - now that's a job I don't envy.

[PaladinValer]

Yeah, I really agree with you here, PV. It is important to me to buy free-range products as often as possible. But I could do better.

I agree with free-range too, although it shouldn't be limited to animals like sheep and cows. I think chickens and pigs, obviously in a more limited way due to their sizes, should be given this ability too.

What really bugs me is the whole sticking our livestock with drugs and pumping all those hormones into them...I want to eat cow, not mutated beaf!

At two very dark periods in my life I worked in the meat industry. The animals are slaughtered in a humane manor, but there is very little dignity in watching a large animal turned into meat products.

So long as the animal is slain humanely, I'm a happy man.

Still, I'll take your word for it.

The rumors of poor sanitation are not really true, but mostly, you do not want to know what it is like to work in a slaughter house.

Thus, I'm talking your trustworthy word for it :)

Not at all. I live in Omaha, Nebraksa Beef steak capitol of the world!! ;o)

My last slaughter house job was running the tongue saw.......

and

My kids like to eat tongue as a sandwich meat. :sick: It's kind of popular here in the UK.

The tongue is a muscle like any other though, no?

Perhaps your kids need to experience a Red Osier! :)

[Colabomb]

My kids like to eat tongue as a sandwich meat. :sick: It's kind of popular here in the UK.'

Ah ah.

As a wiser woman you have the responsibility to teach them to eat the better, american way :)

(Ducks as a million health nuts and Environmentalists throw things at me)

That and the brits BOIL Beef, YUK!!!!

[longhair75]

Wow - now that's a job I don't envy.
It is amazing what one will do to feed one's family in a time of economic recession. When I took that job, Sunflower was eight months pregnant with our oldest child. I had been working as an apartment complex maintenance man. I was laid off with two weeks notice that my job would end, and thirty days to get out of my apartment, which was part of my salary. Not only was I faced with joblessness, but homelessness as well. The next day I went to the slaughterhouse district at three am and had a job by four. It was unpleasant, but it kept food on teh table and a roof over our head for a year and a half.

[Colabomb]

It is amazing what one will do to feed one's family in a time of economic recession.

I praise hard workers who give for their family.

Good for you Brother.

[Mrs.Sidhe]

According to what I learned in EfM, vegetarianism was God's original plan. Mankind was given green herbs and fruit to eat in the first creation story, not meat. Thus, the plan in the Garden of Eden did not include mankind being omnivorous. It's why one of my EfM mentors is vegetarian, and why I'm considering it.

I also just thought it was really interesting. :)

[longhair75]

I am also a Moderator in the SDA forum. E.G. White called for vegetarianism in many of her writings.

[traversinginfinity]

I am something of a meat fan. I start feeling weak if i've not had any meat for a couple of days. As far as i'm aware the biblical support for eating meat has always been quite strong. However i was reading a book a while ago which said in heaven we will all be back to vegetarians, just as Adam and Eve were in the garden. The scriptural support offered were things like the passages in Isaiah that speak of the lion sleeping with the lamb etc.

If such an interpretation is true then surely we all should be trying to live in that manner today?

I've been a vegetarian for over two years, and I don't ever plan on eating meat again.

What do you mean by biblical support for eating meat? The Bible doesn't say it's a sin to eat meat, but I don't think it actually supports eating meat, rather it passively allows it. God didn't allow people to eat meat until after the great flood, if I remember correctly.

Personally I think vegetarianism is preferable today for moral reasons, because animals today are being exploited to an extent that they weren't when the Bible was written (for example, animals are fed steroids and hormones which make them grow at an unnatural rate in order to speed up production, pigs have to live in terrible conditions and can't run free, chicken have their beaks cut off weeks or months before being killed in order to stop them from pecking each other to death as they try to do because they are packed together to closely, etc.).

The Bible allows for killing and eating animals, but it doesn't allow for the unnatural exploitation of them. I don't think eating meat is a sin, but I think the extent to which it is done today is wrong. People in general eat too much meat, and it's causing unnecessary suffering for the animals and it's not doing any good for humans either.

[traversinginfinity]

"If such an interpretation is true" is the key point here.

But BTW, what would the lion sleeping with the lamb have to do with anything? That concerns a future age quite unlike this one in many ways, not this time in which we live and for whom we have been given scriptural guidance.

Jesus called fishermen to be his closest followers, gave them great catches of fish, made analogies between fishing for fish and fishing for men's souls, never criticised their profession...and we're supposed to think that vegetarianism is his way for us? I don't think so.
Those fish weren't being treated cruelly, living and suffering under unnatural conditions, and being fed steroids and hormones to make them grow faster than they were supposed to.

If God had wanted chicken to grow at the rate we're making them grow with the steroids we give them, He would have made them that way in the first place. God didn't give us animals so we could exploit them any way we want.

[Wigglesworth]

I would not argue against any of the posts in favor of not eating meat. God bless the vegans.

I would propose two points. First, Jesus ate fish, and we can infer that he participated in the Passover meal including the lamb.

Second, I wonder if the plants we have available today are as nutritious as those eaten before Noah's flood. A lot changed after the flood. There were some atmospheric conditions that so awesomely changed the way of life on earth that lifespans declined from hundreds of years to only decades. I'm certain that much of our produce in the United States is grown on soil depleted of nutrients other than those added to the fields in the form of petrochemical fertilizer. This is one of the reasons to choose organic foods whenever practical.

Peace be with you.

:crossrc:

[karen freeinchristman]

It is amazing what one will do to feed one's family in a time of economic recession. When I took that job, Sunflower was eight months pregnant with our oldest child. I had been working as an apartment complex maintenance man. I was laid off with two weeks notice that my job would end, and thirty days to get out of my apartment, which was part of my salary. Not only was I faced with joblessness, but homelessness as well. The next day I went to the slaughterhouse district at three am and had a job by four. It was unpleasant, but it kept food on teh table and a roof over our head for a year and a half.

I praise hard workers who give for their family.

Good for you Brother.Amen! What you did, lh, was a really honourable thing. :thumbsup:

I've been a vegetarian for over two years, and I don't ever plan on eating meat again.

What do you mean by biblical support for eating meat? The Bible doesn't say it's a sin to eat meat, but I don't think it actually supports eating meat, rather it passively allows it. God didn't allow people to eat meat until after the great flood, if I remember correctly.

Personally I think vegetarianism is preferable today for moral reasons, because animals today are being exploited to an extent that they weren't when the Bible was written (for example, animals are fed steroids and hormones which make them grow at an unnatural rate in order to speed up production, pigs have to live in terrible conditions and can't run free, chicken have their beaks cut off weeks or months before being killed in order to stop them from pecking each other to death as they try to do because they are packed together to closely, etc.).

The Bible allows for killing and eating animals, but it doesn't allow for the unnatural exploitation of them. I don't think eating meat is a sin, but I think the extent to which it is done today is wrong. People in general eat too much meat, and it's causing unnecessary suffering for the animals and it's not doing any good for humans either.
Good points made. :sigh: There are better options available, with organic and free-range and locally marketed stuff that you can see where it comes from and speak with the farmer. I think I will try harder to buy from these sources. Not easy, though, with everything, because when we buy 'ready-meals', like frozen foods or even canned stuff like soups, the meat in there is from who knows where.

[HyacinthBouquet]

I'm sure God finds it acceptable for people to be vegies if they choose; after all - it's not what goes in that makes us 'unclean', it's what comes out of us that can be unpleasing to God.

I've often wanted to make the switch to vegetarianism, because I think my digestion would probably benefit from it, but I find it too hard to switch my cooking style. We probably eat vegetarian about 2 or 3 times a week, though.

There are so many meat substitutes now in England. Just look in the vegetarian section of most supermarkets and you will find shop-brand vegetarian meat substitutes such as vegetarian mince or 'beef-style chunks' to add to your meat recipes. There are also lots of good chicken substitutes too. And as for sausages..... there are masses of vegetarian sausages. The ones I like best are the quorn sausages.

Some recipe suggestions:
Spag/Bol with vegetarian mince
Toad in the hole with vegetarian sausages
'Beef' curry with beef substitutes

Most meat dishes, apart from roast (and even then they have a quorn roast which tastes quite nice) can be maintained with a meat substitute. Holland and Barrett even have vegetarian fish cakes now.


I believe it is an issue of conscience: can you live a typical omnivorous lifestyle while knowing what often happens to our livestock? And if you can, do you at least do something about promoting the dignity of other animal species? If not, how far can you affordably and dietarily slide into vegetarianism? There are, after all, different shades, ranging from the refraining of just one or two kinds of animal product to being a vegan.

Very good points. Personally, I still eat fish occasionally but I try to avoid cod. This is because the cod species is virtually being wiped out in the seas surrounding the UK. I do not eat any other meat because I do not agree with the way farm animals are being treated in these modern times. Their lives are miserable.

At the time of Jesus, fish were not being hunted to extinction. Jesus seldom ate meat. The animals in those days were not hunted to extinction. They were not kept in inhumane conditions where their lives were not worth living. Also, at the time of Jesus, there were no meat substitutes so the people had no choice.

In modern times we have a choice.

[ContraMundum]

I think the Council of Ancyra (314AD) forbid vegetarianism among the clergy.

"It is decreed that among the clergy, presbyters and deacons who abstain from flesh shall taste of it, and afterwards, if they shall so please, may abstain. But if they disdain it, and will not even eat herbs served with flesh, but disobey the canon, let them be removed from their order."

There was another council too, Toledo in 400 or 447 AD which stated in Canon XVII.

"If anyone saith or believeth that the flesh of birds or of animals, which hath been given for food, not only ought to be abstained from for the chastising of the body, but ought to abhorred, let him be anathema."

Interesting, eh?

[Colabomb]

I think the Council of Ancyra (314AD) forbid vegetarianism among the clergy.

"It is decreed that among the clergy, presbyters and deacons who abstain from flesh shall taste of it, and afterwards, if they shall so please, may abstain. But if they disdain it, and will not even eat herbs served with flesh, but disobey the canon, let them be removed from their order."

There was another council too, Toledo in 400 or 447 AD which stated in Canon XVII.

"If anyone saith or believeth that the flesh of birds or of animals, which hath been given for food, not only ought to be abstained from for the chastising of the body, but ought to abhorred, let him be anathema."

Interesting, eh?

You know, all those infallible Councils ;)

[HyacinthBouquet]

You know, all those infallible Councils ;)

Oh yes, completely infallible, especially the Council of Trent. ;)

[PaladinValer]

Local synods and regional councils are not binding except to those places they have juristiction in.

Only the Ecumenical Councils are binding to all.

[Colabomb]

Local synods and regional councils are not binding except to those places they have juristiction in.

Only the Ecumenical Councils are binding to all.


Ah, so vegetarianism is only a sin in certain geographical boundaries....

[Colabomb]

Local synods and regional councils are not binding except to those places they have juristiction in.

Only the Ecumenical Councils are binding to all.


Ah, so vegetarianism is only a sin in certain geographical boundaries....

Maybe the Various Christian churches should make a chart/map so that we don't accidentally sin.

[HyacinthBouquet]

Ah, so vegetarianism is only a sin in certain geographical boundaries....

Maybe the Various Christian churches should make a chart/map so that we don't accidentally sin.

:D

What about when we are travelling or going up to town to a restaurant? Should we consult our maps before we go?

[Seriously, I know of a woman with this sort of problem. She is not allowed to eat anything in certain Anglican dioceses. I think she has schizophrenia.]

[PaladinValer]

Ah, so vegetarianism is only a sin in certain geographical boundaries....

Who said it was a sin?

Anathema means "to set apart from."

In any event, since it doesn't seem there is an Ecumenical Counciliar pronouncement against it, it makes it a discipline, not a doctrine.

That means it wouldn't therefore be a sin anyway.

Furthermore, in the Anglican Church, I do not believe there is any sort of dietary canon. As such, you and I are perfectly safe to eat all the cow, chicken, pig, and cheese we wish.

Maybe the Various Christian churches should make a chart/map so that we don't accidentally sin.

As far as I know, there is no Christian body that has such dietary doctrinal canons.

[karen freeinchristman]

There are so many meat substitutes now in England. Just look in the vegetarian section of most supermarkets and you will find shop-brand vegetarian meat substitutes such as vegetarian mince or 'beef-style chunks' to add to your meat recipes. There are also lots of good chicken substitutes too. And as for sausages..... there are masses of vegetarian sausages. The ones I like best are the quorn sausages.

Some recipe suggestions:
Spag/Bol with vegetarian mince
Toad in the hole with vegetarian sausages
'Beef' curry with beef substitutes

Most meat dishes, apart from roast (and even then they have a quorn roast which tastes quite nice) can be maintained with a meat substitute. Holland and Barrett even have vegetarian fish cakes now.
Sounds like a good idea to me!

[TomUK]

Are meat substitues really better for the environment though? I heard that things like soy are destroying huge areas in Brazil or something like that.

[TomUK]

Just searched on wikipedia.

Environmental groups, such as Greenpeace and the WWF, have reported that both soybean cultivation and the probability of increased soybean cultivation in Brazil, has destroyed huge areas of Amazon rainforest and is encouraging further deforestation.

[Colabomb]

The only advantage i can think about in vegatables, is that it costs more grain to feed the cows than you get out of the cows.

[PaladinValer]

TomUK brings up and important point.

Just as many (most?) vegetarians will point to how we treat our livestock for the reason they are vegetarian, many omnivours do point to the increased destruction of our vegetable environment that is at least in part caused by an increased necessity for protein replacement in a vegetarian diet.

I think humanity is in dire need of a wakeup call in our God-given duty to be stewards of our island home. We often forget that what we put in must be take out from somewhere. And just as animals are sometimes treated horrendously to feed our voracious appetite for filet mignon, chicken french, and venison, we are stepping up our destruction of many species' homes in our quest for meat substitutes.

Even the smallest and seemingly meaningly things like eating can have consequences. Awareness, particularly in the US, is only just beginning to arise, and it is like a groggy, zombie-like state I'd say right now.

In the end, I suppose you could say that you know the quality of an individual (or perhaps of an entire race) not so much as it treats its equals and certainly not its superiors, but moreso how it treats inferiors.

Should we let our natural omnivorous ways lead to the poor treatment of animals? No. That is a sin.

Should we let our chosen vegetarian ways lead to increased destruction of other species' homes? No. That is a sin also.

That doesn't mean that being a practicing omnivor (or vegetarian for that matter) is a sin; it simply means we must remember that our choices do have consequences and we must do all we can to lessen them to the point of a controlled, disciplined preserving of dignity and of life (even if it is "lesser" than our own).

That is, I believe, where omnivors and vegetarians can meet and agree upon. We must do our collective part to eradicate unethical treatment of our livestock and we must do what we can to preserve our plant life so that other species' homes are safe and preserved. Reforestation is just as vital as the treatment of pigs and chickens; it each affirms the dignity of life.

That way, we can have our tofu and chicken, and life can still continue.

[PaladinValer]

The only advantage i can think about in vegatables, is that it costs more grain to feed the cows than you get out of the cows.

You could then argue that, if we stopped pumping our bovine with hormones and growth agents, you'd put far less $$$ into cows and come out more wealthy in the end, especially since the West is awaking to a new health craze. The profit potential for ranchers has turned for the better if they are frugal and wise.

[Aymn27]

Ah, so vegetarianism is only a sin in certain geographical boundaries....

Maybe the Various Christian churches should make a chart/map so that we don't accidentally sin.
lol! good one....

[traversinginfinity]

Ah, so vegetarianism is only a sin in certain geographical boundaries....
Erm... I'm not aware of vegetarianism being a sin anywhere.

[traversinginfinity]

I think the Council of Ancyra (314AD) forbid vegetarianism among the clergy.

"It is decreed that among the clergy, presbyters and deacons who abstain from flesh shall taste of it, and afterwards, if they shall so please, may abstain. But if they disdain it, and will not even eat herbs served with flesh, but disobey the canon, let them be removed from their order."

There was another council too, Toledo in 400 or 447 AD which stated in Canon XVII.

"If anyone saith or believeth that the flesh of birds or of animals, which hath been given for food, not only ought to be abstained from for the chastising of the body, but ought to abhorred, let him be anathema."

Interesting, eh?

This doesn't address vegetarianism. This addresses people who think that animal flesh ought to be abhorred.

I don't abhor meat. I abhor the inhumane manner in which the animals are being treated in modern times.

Factory farms did not exist when these councils took place. It is necessary to look at the situation in light of modern times. We have no right to exploit animals the way that are being exploited today, and it wouldn't happen if so many people didn't eat so much meat. Meat consumption itself isn't bad. What's bad is that it's done too much and the demand for meat has grown to high which has forced the meat industry to resort to cruel methods of raising and killing livestock.

[karen freeinchristman]

Are meat substitues really better for the environment though? I heard that things like soy are destroying huge areas in Brazil or something like that.How about 'myco-protein'? That is what Quorn is made from.

TomUK brings up and important point.

Just as many (most?) vegetarians will point to how we treat our livestock for the reason they are vegetarian, many omnivours do point to the increased destruction of our vegetable environment that is at least in part caused by an increased necessity for protein replacement in a vegetarian diet.

I think humanity is in dire need of a wakeup call in our God-given duty to be stewards of our island home. We often forget that what we put in must be take out from somewhere. And just as animals are sometimes treated horrendously to feed our voracious appetite for filet mignon, chicken french, and venison, we are stepping up our destruction of many species' homes in our quest for meat substitutes.

Even the smallest and seemingly meaningly things like eating can have consequences. Awareness, particularly in the US, is only just beginning to arise, and it is like a groggy, zombie-like state I'd say right now.

In the end, I suppose you could say that you know the quality of an individual (or perhaps of an entire race) not so much as it treats its equals and certainly not its superiors, but moreso how it treats inferiors.

Should we let our natural omnivorous ways lead to the poor treatment of animals? No. That is a sin.

Should we let our chosen vegetarian ways lead to increased destruction of other species' homes? No. That is a sin also.

That doesn't mean that being a practicing omnivor (or vegetarian for that matter) is a sin; it simply means we must remember that our choices do have consequences and we must do all we can to lessen them to the point of a controlled, disciplined preserving of dignity and of life (even if it is "lesser" than our own).

That is, I believe, where omnivors and vegetarians can meet and agree upon. We must do our collective part to eradicate unethical treatment of our livestock and we must do what we can to preserve our plant life so that other species' homes are safe and preserved. Reforestation is just as vital as the treatment of pigs and chickens; it each affirms the dignity of life.

That way, we can have our tofu and chicken, and life can still continue.Great post, PV.

This doesn't address vegetarianism. This addresses people who think that animal flesh ought to be abhorred.

I don't abhor meat. I abhor the inhumane manner in which the animals are being treated in modern times.

Factory farms did not exist when these councils took place. It is necessary to look at the situation in light of modern times. We have no right to exploit animals the way that are being exploited today, and it wouldn't happen if so many people didn't eat so much meat. Meat consumption itself isn't bad. What's bad is that it's done too much and the demand for meat has grown to high which has forced the meat industry to resort to cruel methods of raising and killing livestock.
This is also very true.

[Colabomb]

Erm... I'm not aware of vegetarianism being a sin anywhere.
It was just a joke ;)

[karen freeinchristman]

It was just a joke ;)
In your opinion... :cool:

[Colabomb]

In your opinion... :cool:

Yeah... well....

Its MY opinion that that flower in your hand is WILTING and therefore you are PRO DEATH!!!!!

(Its a joke... Please stop throwing the spears people, its really dangerous)

[karen freeinchristman]

Yeah... well....

Its MY opinion that that flower in your hand is WILTING and therefore you are PRO DEATH!!!!!

(Its a joke... Please stop throwing the spears people, its really dangerous)
:D

*karen goes off to the armoury to find a non-wilted flower to hold...

[ContraMundum]

I can't believe some of you are actually arguing about the validity of canons of the local Councils of days gone by.

They were canons made to deal with problems at the time.

- and PV: "anathema" is a little more than just being "set apart". While the root words do mean that to some degree, the usus loquendi is far more than that- it is an actual curse. If you are anathametised by the Church, you are in far worse shape than being "placed on high" or "set up".

[Lilium]

Are meat substitues really better for the environment though? I heard that things like soy are destroying huge areas in Brazil or something like that.

I think much of that soy ends up in animal feed.

Also many vegetarians do not eat meat substitutes. Heck, one of the many reasons I gave up eating meat was because I didn't like it (except chicken...that was the only meat I liked) so I'm not about to eat stuff which mimics it :D

[Albion]

This doesn't address vegetarianism. This addresses people who think that animal flesh ought to be abhorred.

I don't abhor meat. I abhor the inhumane manner in which the animals are being treated in modern times.

Factory farms did not exist when these councils took place.

Fair enough, but this just shows us that the thread has wandered. How animals are treated on factory farms was not the issue in the beginning of this, just vegetarianism as a (possibly) Biblical lifestyle.

[PaladinValer]

and PV: "anathema" is a little more than just being "set apart". While the root words do mean that to some degree, the usus loquendi is far more than that- it is an actual curse. If you are anathametised by the Church, you are in far worse shape than being "placed on high" or "set up".

Cursed however in what context? That is the key part.

It certainly would seem to be a curse when one is set apart from God's Kingdom. After all, isn't that what Adam and Eve experienced after doing what God asked them not to do?

Not a "curse" in the popularly conceived notion. A curse in a Biblical context of being cast away.

A notion, IMO, that is worse than any "mystical" curse.

[longhair75]

I am also a moderator for the Seventh Day Adventist forum. Vegetarianism is often the topic of discussion there.

[Colabomb]

What is the official position with the SDA's Peter? I know many are Vegetarians, but I didn't know if it was official church dogma or not.

[PaladinValer]

If I recall correctly, vegetarianism is heavily suggested, but the only animal products that may not be consumed are those named in the Levitical laws.

[longhair75]

As I understand it, the interest in vegetarianism comes from Ellen G White, who the SDA see as a peson with the gift of prophecy. It does not seem to be universally accepted in the denomination, and some carry it to the point of excluding even fish and dairy products, some will consume eggs, milk, cheese and such but no meat, some adhere to the Levitical dietary restrictions and some are not vegetarian. There are ocassional arguments in the SDA forum over the variations.

[Mick116]

I am something of a meat fan. I start feeling weak if i've not had any meat for a couple of days. As far as i'm aware the biblical support for eating meat has always been quite strong. However i was reading a book a while ago which said in heaven we will all be back to vegetarians, just as Adam and Eve were in the garden. The scriptural support offered were things like the passages in Isaiah that speak of the lion sleeping with the lamb etc.

If such an interpretation is true then surely we all should be trying to live in that manner today?
Heaven without steak? What kind of heaven is that!?
;)

[Aymn27]

Heaven without steak? What kind of heaven is that!?
;)
indeed...there must be meat in heaven! Didn't Jesus eat fish after the resurrection? that sure isn't on the vegetarian list of acceptable foods - is it?

[ContraMundum]

Cursed however in what context? That is the key part.

It certainly would seem to be a curse when one is set apart from God's Kingdom. After all, isn't that what Adam and Eve experienced after doing what God asked them not to do?

Not a "curse" in the popularly conceived notion. A curse in a Biblical context of being cast away.

A notion, IMO, that is worse than any "mystical" curse.

Yep, I can go with that.