On Salvation

[Lotar]

Here's another thing I've been wroking on. I don't think I'll get any bad rep for this one, but who knows :D


On Salvation



Works play no part in salvation. Works come about as a result of salvation. If one does not have works, it is because they do not have salvation, not the other way around. To say that works are required for salvation, says that we are saved at least partly because of our own merit, which we know not to be true.



Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:



Works are a result of salvation, but that does not mean that works cannot come for some other reason as well. All dogs are mammals, not all mammals are dogs. All who are saved have works, not all who have works are saved. If works are absent, it is because salvation is absent. Not salvation is absent because works are absent.



Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

How do I know I am saved, and when am I saved?

Giving your life to Christ. Repenting and accepting His forgiveness for our sins, seeking and following His will through prayer and scripture, by having faith and the works to demonstrate it. It is stated this way because of the common trend in the Church today is, "I'm a Christian because my Mom/Dad were", have "because I was baptized". It's teaching that the faith must be yours, not your parents; it's not genetic.

No, not everyone will be saved who thinks that they are. Saying some prayer your pastor made up, getting baptized, being a basically good person, saying you believe in Jesus, or being "born a Christian" are common reasons people give for why they are saved. Unfortunately none of these things are going to get you to heaven.



How do I know others are saved?

You will know them by their fruit. Though we can never truly know their hearts.



Is it available only to Evangelical Fundamentalists, or can Mainline Protestants, Anglicans, Catholics and Orthodox partake of this relationship?

All Christians have it.

What was that like? And were you saved the moment before that? In other words, how did you know?

Actually, I don't know when the exact moment was for me. Thoughts who can pinpoint when usually were not raised in the church, or left the church and came back. I can say that in tenth grade was when I first made a real effort to apply my faith.

How do I know I am saved? Because I believe that Christ died and rose again for my sins. I have repented and turned from my sins, and make an effort to seek His will.



Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.



Religious feelings are no basis for faith, or a reason to believe that one is saved. If you merely follow your feelings, who knows where you'll end up? There are Muslims, Mormons, and Buddhists that get that feeling. Pray, and follow the word of God, don't rely on feelings.


The reason that Evangelical Christians focus on the personal side of the faith is that many people don't realize that it is an essential part of salvation. The downside is that some people seem to think we teach, pray this prayer and you go to heaven. Or you don't really need a church; you can be fine on your own. But it's just like how some people at other churches think you just need to show up on Sundays, or sometimes only on holidays. Salvation is through Grace alone, but faith without works is dead.

[didaskalos]

How do I know I am saved, and when am I saved?

.
I have been a believer for 30+ years... spoke in tongues and prophesied for 30+ of those years... layed hands on the sick and had them healed.... cast out demons... seen miracles... layed hands on people and had them "fall out"... lots of other things to numerous to mention.
In the end there is only one thing that I am relying on to know that I am saved:

Because He said so!

Romans 10
13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


His name is Jesus!

Acts 2
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[Florida College]

Here's another thing I've been wroking on. I don't think I'll get any bad rep for this one, but who knows :D

On Salvation

Works play no part in salvation. Works come about as a result of salvation. If one does not have works, it is because they do not have salvation, not the other way around. To say that works are required for salvation, says that we are saved at least partly because of our own merit, which we know not to be true.

Would you comment on John 6:28-29?

[color=black][font=Arial]
James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

So, are works necessary or not? This verse (James 2:26) seems to suggest that they are. Did Abraham have to obey God (James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18)?

[Florida College]

Salvation is through Grace alone, but faith without works is dead.[/font][/color]

Perhaps you would comment on these two texts: Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14.

I understand them to say that God's grace has been extended to all men, but all men will not be saved. Seems to me that salvation must involve other factors than just grace. Maybe I've missed something?

[Lotar]

Would you comment on John 6:28-29?

So, are works necessary or not? This verse (James 2:26) seems to suggest that they are. Did Abraham have to obey God (James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18)?

If we have faith we have works, it is through our works that we show we have true faith "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;"

Take the theif on the cross for example, he had no works, yet through his faith he was saved. If works were required for salvation, it would have been to late for him. If he had lived he would have demonstrated his faith through works, but his salvation would still have been a result of his faith.


Perhaps you would comment on these two texts: Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14.

I understand them to say that God's grace has been extended to all men, but all men will not be saved. Seems to me that salvation must involve other factors than just grace. Maybe I've missed something?

We must first recieve His grace through faith.

[Rising_Suns]

Lotar, buddy, why are you beating this to death? We all know faith and works are interconnected. There can't be one without the other right? (of course, there are some exceptions, like when you are on your death bed and can't possibly do any good works from your faith).

So lets just leave it at that. :)

[Greeter]

Lotar, buddy, why are you beating this to death?
What is the problem Rising_Suns? Lotar picked a subject that is very important to the denominations represented here in PRE. Our beliefs differ from other denominations, especially on this issue, and we would like to have all our ducks in a role in preparation for debates with those other denominations. Is that okay with you? (As if we need your approval now for what we wish to discuss in our forum :rolleyes: )

[Lotar]

Lotar, buddy, why are you beating this to death? We all know faith and works are interconnected. There can't be one without the other right? (of course, there are some exceptions, like when you are on your death bed and can't possibly do any good works from your faith).

So lets just leave it at that. :)
Because it's a fundamental Protestant belief, and what Greeter said :)

[Rising_Suns]

Works as a result of faith is also a Catholic belief as well, just so you know. :)

*dave leaves before he gets beat up*

[Florida College]

If we have faith we have works, it is through our works that we show we have true faith "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;"

Take the theif on the cross for example, he had no works, yet through his faith he was saved. If works were required for salvation, it would have been to late for him. If he had lived he would have demonstrated his faith through works, but his salvation would still have been a result of his faith.


We must first recieve His grace through faith.

Lotar,

So, did the Abraham have to obey God i.e. James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18?

Must we not also obey Christ in all that he commanded regarding salvation i.e. faith (John 3:16), repentance (Lk. 13:3,5), confession (Matt. 10:32-33), and baptism (Mk. 16:16)?

Concerning the thief on the cross, what law did the thief live under . . . the law of Moses or the law of Christ? Would you comment on Heb. 9:15-17 - - specifically as to which law was in effect when the thief on the cross died?

Also, your comments about Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14 were that grace must be received through faith. I agree. We are saved by grace, but not by grace alone - - that is what I conclude from the passages listed in Titus and Matt.
But are we saved by faith alone? Is faith the only command that Jesus requires? If so, what about the demons (James 2:19)? They believed.

FC

[Bayhawks83]

Works as a result of faith is also a Catholic belief as well, just so you know. :)

*dave leaves before he gets beat up*
i guess martin luther had no reason to disagree with the catholic church?

[boughtwithaprice]

i guess martin luther had no reason to disagree with the catholic church?
Now that you mention it, not really.

[danceforjoy]

I am new to you and like to mention the faith of Paul who died daily to sin and self and lived by the faith of Jesus (Gal.2:20). Then Jesus said to the ex-sex worker: "Your sins are forgiven, your faith has saved you" (Lk.7:48-50). She did not keep the Law of Moses. She was saved on the basis of Jesus forgiving her and believing Him.
I am astounded how very few Christian actually know the reason for the Protestant Reformation and the difference. It is especially apparent in interpreting Romans ch.7. When you apply Gal.2:20 to Rom.7 you cannot but see the diff. God bless - danceforjoy

[FreeinChrist]

Lotar,

So, did the Abraham have to obey God i.e. James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18?
Free: Abraham believed and was accounted righteous. See Genesis 15, verse 6 in particular. God made a covenant with Abram and what did God require of Abram at that time as a condition of that covenant? Nothing that is stated. It just says that Abram believed. Paul refers to this several times between Romans and Galatians, and so does the author of Hebrews.


Must we not also obey Christ in all that he commanded regarding salvation i.e. faith (John 3:16), repentance (Lk. 13:3,5), confession (Matt. 10:32-33), and baptism (Mk. 16:16)?
Free: Repentence and fatih are not 'works'. Water Baptism does not save, it is beling washed by the Spirit that regenerates and renews. Water Baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change.

Concerning the thief on the cross, what law did the thief live under . . . the law of Moses or the law of Christ? Would you comment on Heb. 9:15-17 - - specifically as to which law was in effect when the thief on the cross died?
Free: Considering that Christ was already being sacrificed on the cross for sin at that time, and all that we know of the thief is that he was not a law abiding fellow, but one who beleived Jesus on the cross - I'd say he was forgiven under the New Covenant. But salvation has always been by grace through faith. It is a huge point of Hebrews 11.


Also, your comments about Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14 were that grace must be received through faith. I agree. We are saved by grace, but not by grace alone - - that is what I conclude from the passages listed in Titus and Matt.
But are we saved by faith alone? Is faith the only command that Jesus requires? If so, what about the demons (James 2:19)? They believed.

FC We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
The demons mentioned in James may have believed Christ would come as promised, but have faith in God?? They didn't, otherwise they wouldn't have become demons. And there is no plan of salvation for the fallen angels. They have no hope. They were in the presence of God himself, and followed Satan instead.

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Florida College Would you comment on John 6:28-29?

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

John 6:29 Jesus answer and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he sent.

John 1:13 which were born , not of blood , nor the will of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God


So, are works necessary or not? This verse (James 2:26) seems to suggest that they are. Did Abraham have to obey God (James 2:21-22 & Gen. 22:1-18)?
what came first belief then works not works then belief
Gen 15:6 Abram believed that he would many seed...Hebrews 11:8-9


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith[given by God Gal 5:22] is counted for righteousness.

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us .........

2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works but according to His purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began


james is talking about us telling unbelievers for us to help lead them to Christ that without living what one preaches it will be in vain

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Florida College Perhaps you would comment on these two texts: Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14.

I understand them to say that God's grace has been extended to all men, but all men will not be saved. Seems to me that salvation must involve other factors than just grace. Maybe I've missed something?

Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God that bringeth salvation hath available to all men

Matt 7:13-14 few can find it

matt 20:16 many called few chosen

romans 3:11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh God.

only in your world florida matt 7:21-23

[Florida College]

Free: Abraham believed and was accounted righteous. See Genesis 15, verse 6 in particular. God made a covenant with Abram and what did God require of Abram at that time as a condition of that covenant? Nothing that is stated. It just says that Abram believed. Paul refers to this several times between Romans and Galatians, and so does the author of Hebrews.

So, did Abraham have to obey God or not in Gen. 22:1-18 (see also James 2:21-22).

Free: Repentence and fatih are not 'works'. Water Baptism does not save, it is beling washed by the Spirit that regenerates and renews. Water Baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change.

Who says that faith is not a work? Did Jesus say that (John 6:28-29)? Who said that water baptism does not save? Did Peter say that (1 Pet. 3:20-21)?
Who said that water baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change? What did Jesus say baptism was for in Mark 16:16?

Free: Considering that Christ was already being sacrificed on the cross for sin at that time, and all that we know of the thief is that he was not a law abiding fellow, but one who beleived Jesus on the cross - I'd say he was forgiven under the New Covenant. But salvation has always been by grace through faith. It is a huge point of Hebrews 11.

You say that the thief was forgiven under the New Covenant, but what does Heb. 9:15-17 say? Was Jesus' testament (or will) in effect then?

I'm not sure that salvation by grace through faith is the real point of Heb. 11. Heb. 11 is focusing on the faithful men and women of the O.T. Heb. 11:6 plainly tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. I'm not denying the significance or importance of grace, just that grace is not really being discussed in Heb. 11.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
The demons mentioned in James may have believed Christ would come as promised, but have faith in God?? They didn't, otherwise they wouldn't have become demons. And there is no plan of salvation for the fallen angels. They have no hope. They were in the presence of God himself, and followed Satan instead.

Free,

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). But what does faith prompt one to do when faced with a command given by the Lord? Consider John 8:24 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; Matt. 10:32-33 ; Mark 16:16 ; & Heb. 5:9? I am not sure that I understand the kind of faith that prompts one to not obey the Lord.

The rulers of John 12:42-43 believed in Jesus. Still, they lacked something. If I believed that salvation came by faith alone, that would cause me concern.

Concerning the demons in James 2:19, consider the context (note vs.17).

FC

[Florida College]

QUOTE=Florida College Perhaps you would comment on these two texts: Titus 2:11 & Matt. 7:13-14.

I understand them to say that God's grace has been extended to all men, but all men will not be saved. Seems to me that salvation must involve other factors than just grace. Maybe I've missed something?

Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God that bringeth salvation hath available to all men

Matt 7:13-14 few can find it

matt 20:16 many called few chosen

romans 3:11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh God.

only in your world florida matt 7:21-23

Brethren,

It has not been but a few days since I pointed out your unnecessary hostility.
Should I suspect any different from you now?

Why do you think I referred you to Acts 13:51?

Why do you think that I told you that my time was better spent elsewhere?

I love bible study, but after enough insults, it's time to move on.

Just think for a moment, who apologized to you for the ugly behavior of others because he felt concern for you and didn't want you to be discouraged about studying the bible? Do you remember who did that?

If I could help you, I would. But you will have to convince me that I can.

FC

[FreeinChrist]

So, did Abraham have to obey God or not in Gen. 22:1-18 (see also James 2:21-22).
I already pointed out that that Abram was accounted righteous simply for believing. And God KNOWS his people, He knew what Abraham would do. And consider this: Abraham was told by God to leave his father's house back in Genesis 12 - and Abraham didn't, not for years - not til his father died. God's punishment? none.

John 6 explains that no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws, grants it to him, and then gives them to Jesus. Salvation is not at the whim of man, but occurs when God looks into the true intent of a person and grants it to that person to come to Christ. It is very important in regards to salvation to look at exactly what God does.



Who says that faith is not a work? Did Jesus say that (John 6:28-29)? Who said that water baptism does not save? Did Peter say that (1 Pet. 3:20-21)?
Who said that water baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change? What did Jesus say baptism was for in Mark 16:16?
Ephesians 2:8 - 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast."
If faith is works, then this verse needs to be rewritten to: 'for by grace are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God: not of works except the work of faith, lest any man boast - except in his faith.'
This verse shows that faith is not part of works.

That faith is not works is not the least contrary to John 6:28-29.
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now, Whose works are they? And consider these verses:
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
See the Father's role - He draws us, He teaches, He grants to us to come to Jjesus, and He gives us to Jesus. He knows who beleives and who doesn't really believe.


You say that the thief was forgiven under the New Covenant, but what does Heb. 9:15-17 say? Was Jesus' testament (or will) in effect then?
Hbr 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hbr 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Hbr 9:17 For a covenant is valid {only} when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

The fact remains that the thief was on his cross for a crime, which isn't following any law, and he was forgiven for believing in Jesus Christ. Since his belief was in the mediator of the New Covenant, I beleive that a case could be made that he in the new Covennant - but it's a moot point.
He was saved because he believed. Not on the basis of works.




I'm not sure that salvation by grace through faith is the real point of Heb. 11. Heb. 11 is focusing on the faithful men and women of the O.T. Heb. 11:6 plainly tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. I'm not denying the significance or importance of grace, just that grace is not really being discussed in Heb. 11.
But God's grace is seen throughout the whole bible - how many times did he forgive Israel? Isn't the fact that through the person of Jesus Christ, God himself made atonement for sin evidence of His grace? That the Tablets were put inside the Ark and the mercy seat put on top is also evidence of God's grace, for as James also says, "mercy triumphs over judgement."

By grace, the OT saints were saved through faith in a God's promise of the Seed of Abraham. Since Christ, we are saved by grace through faith in the realized promise of the Seed - Jesus Christ.


Free,

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). But what does faith prompt one to do when faced with a command given by the Lord? Consider John 8:24 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; Matt. 10:32-33 ; Mark 16:16 ; & Heb. 5:9? I am not sure that I understand the kind of faith that prompts one to not obey the Lord.

Free: And who says that the faith that saves prompts one to not obey Jesus? I believe you may be working from a bias.
I believe that what we learn from James is that true faith is evidenced in our behaviour and our deeds. I believe that from Hebrews we learn that continuance in the faith is the evidence of our salvation.

And I believe you need to read scripture and interpret it IN CONTEXT.
Jhn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."
That verse is talking about believing in Jesus as Messiah for eternal life, not about 'works'.



The rulers of John 12:42-43 believed in Jesus. Still, they lacked something. If I believed that salvation came by faith alone, that would cause me concern.

Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing {Him,} for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
Jhn 12:43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Your answer is right there, really - they 'beleived', but not really, for they loved the approval of man over God. Again, there is no salvation for them unless God approves. I refer you again to John 6.


Concerning the demons in James 2:19, consider the context (note vs.17).

FC
James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
The book of James needs to be understood in light of all of scripture - and frequently I see it taken on it's own, outside of the rest of scripture and abused somewhat. As I stated, what we learn from James is that true faith is evidenced by our behaviour and deeds. This is a concept supported by the rest of scripture.

Let's put it this way: a person hears the gospel, says a prayer of repentence, asks Jesus into his heart one night...and then goes on to live a totally Godless life and never thinks of Christ again. Is he saved? no.
God looks into the heart, sees the true intent, and has to grant salvation to the person. Afterall, it is God who forgives, and cleanses and seals with the Holy Spirit. Do you think an omnipotent, omniscient God can look at this person and know it isn't sincere? I do.

and again, the demons know who Jesus is and temble - but there is no hope for them. there is no salvation plan for them. They believed while in God's presence, but didn't have the faith to stick with God over Satan. To make an analogy, it's like a person who says he believes in Jesus and makes lipservice about it, but never has evidence of it in his life. He doesn't truly believe, and he isn't saved - for God knows the true intent of the heart. Salvation is not at the whim of man, but granted to us from God upon true repentence and belief.

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Brethren,

It has not been but a few days since I pointed out your unnecessary hostility.
Should I suspect any different from you now?

Why do you think I referred you to Acts 13:51?

Why do you think that I told you that my time was better spent elsewhere?

I love bible study, but after enough insults, it's time to move on.

Just think for a moment, who apologized to you for the ugly behavior of others because he felt concern for you and didn't want you to be discouraged about studying the bible? Do you remember who did that?

If I could help you, I would. But you will have to convince me that I can.

FC

what hostility just the facts .....

can not work to heaven florida that is what matt 7:21-23 where doing
working with out god leading so that they could say look at my works lord not look at your works lord...

keep on goin to james 2 momons go to that verse all the time

[FreeinChrist]

Who says that faith is not a work? Did Jesus say that (John 6:28-29)? Who said that water baptism does not save? Did Peter say that (1 Pet. 3:20-21)?
Who said that water baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change? What did Jesus say baptism was for in Mark 16:16?


Now regarding water baptism -
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
This is not saying that water baptism saves you. This is speaking of a spiritual change.

You know what is interesting about Mark 16:16 - the last 11 verses of Mark do not appear til later copies of the Bible. They aren't in any of the earliest manuscripts. And they aren't quoted by any of the early church fathers. Most every other verse of the NT is quoted - but not those last 11 verses of Mark. hmmm
So will I believe a verse in those last 11 verses over the rest of what scripture tells me? nope. It must comply with scripture as a whole.


One last thing about the faith/works thing - Paul repeatedly compares works to faith, and works comes up short. And note - that he sees them as two separate things. As in faith is not works. It's a comparison seen in Galatians, and Romans and elsewhere.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[Rechtgläubig]

1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you

This is not saying that water baptism saves you.

:confused:

This is speaking of a spiritual change.
Exactly! Not a cerimonial washing like the Jews had to do and it isn't about washing dirt from your body.

It must comply with scripture as a whole.
Good idea!

16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John 3:5-6)

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. (Ephesians 5:25-27)


Faith and baptism are works, but they are works of God not man. Baptism is not about what we are doing, it is about what God does to us. -sola Gratia!

[Florida College]

Now regarding water baptism -
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
This is not saying that water baptism saves you. This is speaking of a spiritual change.

Look at the 1 Pet. 3:21 again. Does it not say, "There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism?" (NKJV)

You know what is interesting about Mark 16:16 - the last 11 verses of Mark do not appear til later copies of the Bible. They aren't in any of the earliest manuscripts. And they aren't quoted by any of the early church fathers. Most every other verse of the NT is quoted - but not those last 11 verses of Mark. hmmm
So will I believe a verse in those last 11 verses over the rest of what scripture tells me? nope. It must comply with scripture as a whole.

While I am aware that that some manuscripts did not contain the verses you mentioned, I am not aware that these verses do not comply with scripture as a whole. For instance, Mark 16: 16 harmonizes (or agrees) with Acts 2:38, Acts 8:35-39, and Col. 2:12.


One last thing about the faith/works thing - Paul repeatedly compares works to faith, and works comes up short. And note - that he sees them as two separate things. As in faith is not works. It's a comparison seen in Galatians, and Romans and elsewhere.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,






Free,

Read James 2:14-26 and tell us that works are not necessary.

Fill in the blank:
" _____ Scripture is given by inspiration of God . . . " (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

James 2 is as much a part of scripture as the verses you listed are. The understanding of all of these verses must harmonize. If it doesn't, God' word is not at fault. The fault lies in the person's understanding.

I believe James 2:14-26. I also believe Rom. 9:30-33, Rom. 11:6, & Rom. 4:1-5.
But the understanding that I derive from those verses must also agree with my understanding of James 2. If it doesn't, I can rest assured that I have messed up somewhere. To illustrate, if I chose to believe that these passages teach that no works are necessary for salvation, then I run into a real problem when I read John 6:28-29 and determine that faith is a work. I also run into a problem when I read Matt. 7:21-23 and realize that God expects me to do "his will." Realizing that something was amiss in my understanding, I would be compelled to examine the verses that you mentioned in more detail. Understanding the context of the verses, I would conclude that Rom. 4:1-5 is discussing works under the law of Moses. The same law is being discussed in Rom. 9:30-33. The same law is also being discussed in Rom. 11:6. My conclusion from these verses is that the law of Moses does not lead us to please God today.

FC

[FreeinChrist]

:confused:


Exactly! Not a cerimonial washing like the Jews had to do and it isn't about washing dirt from your body.


Good idea!

16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John 3:5-6)

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. (Ephesians 5:25-27)


Faith and baptism are works, but they are works of God not man. Baptism is not about what we are doing, it is about what God does to us. -sola Gratia!

I posted the scripture that faith is not works, how they are contrasted. I notice you do not reposnd to that, but just make the claim that faith is works. As you haven't backed it up - I'll stick with the scriptures.

Now regarding water baptism, no - it doesn't save. You are really taking the verses out of their entire context. John the Baptist understood that we will be saved through a spiritual baptism when he said:
Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John baptized with water - and it did not remove a speck of sin, did it? It is because it was to be an outward show of repentence. And a picture of a future event - the death, burial of Christ, and His rising up from death to life. Salvation starts with repentence - which is why Christ was baptised to begin His ministry, and for the reason stated below.

Paul baptised very few people - and don't you think he would have water baptised all that he could if he beleived it was necessary for salvation????? But he understood that it was a spiritual baptism that saved.
Tts 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared,
Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.


You can be dipped repeatedly in water and never be saved - it is the spiritual change caused by the Holy Spirit that saves. The point of water baptism is to show WHO you identify with. In I Cor. 10:2, those who came out of Egypt are referred to as having been "baptized unto Moses" - they wre identified with the purpose of Moses. Were they dipped or sprinkled with water? NO Yet the same word is used for baptized in this verse as in the ones you provided. When Jesus was baptized by John, it was not because He needed to repent, but to identify with John tht He was the Messiah.

Again in Romans 6, it is not the water bptism that saves - it just illustrates our identification with Christ who died, was buried, and raised again to eternal life.

THAT is what I mean when I refer to interpreting scripture in light of ALL of scripture.

[FreeinChrist]

Look at the 1 Pet. 3:21 again. Does it not say, "There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism?" (NKJV)
You didn't read what I wrote, did you?
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I'll spell it out to you again - it is not the removal of dirt (water baptism) that saves you, but an appeal to God for a good conscience (spiritual circumcism - spiritual renewal and regeneration - removal of sin - spiritual cleansing). Seems clear to me!
To claim that this verse says water baptism saves is a true abuse of scripture.


While I am aware that that some manuscripts did not contain the verses you mentioned, I am not aware that these verses do not comply with scripture as a whole. For instance, Mark 16: 16 harmonizes (or agrees) with Acts 2:38, Acts 8:35-39, and Col. 2:12.
It is not in the earliest manuscripts. And those 11 verses have been the basis of some false teachings - like you must speak in tongues to be saved, or you must handle snakes and be bit and survive to prove your salvation ( a rather extreme group that hasn't had much growth - happily).
the evidence if there that Mark did not write them. And they are also the 11 verses not quoted by any early church father - all the rest of the NT is quoted - not those 11 verses.

And I believe that what I already wrote to you and to another show that the baptism spoken of that saves is spiritual, and that water baptism shows the inner change. Col. 2:12, in fact, harmonizes with what I wrote. We are spiritually baptized into His death and resurrection. Studying the Greek helps to show this.




Free,

Read James 2:14-26 and tell us that works are not necessary.
Define necessary as to what. Necessary to be saved? No. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. But our faith is reflected in our works - our behaviour, attitudes, deeds. If we live a life of habitual sin, then no, we don't have the faith that saves.


Fill in the blank:
" _____ Scripture is given by inspiration of God . . . " (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

Now you are being patronizing and offensive - a sure sign tha you are having difficulty supporting your position.
I wil ask YOU to fill in that blank. Why do you ignore Ephesians 2?

James 2 is as much a part of scripture as the verses you listed are. The understanding of all of these verses must harmonize. If it doesn't, God' word is not at fault. The fault lies in the person's understanding.

I believe James 2:14-26. I also believe Rom. 9:30-33, Rom. 11:6, & Rom. 4:1-5.
But the understanding that I derive from those verses must also agree with my understanding of James 2. If it doesn't, I can rest assured that I have messed up somewhere. To illustrate, if I chose to believe that these passages teach that no works are necessary for salvation, then I run into a real problem when I read John 6:28-29 and determine that faith is a work. I also run into a problem when I read Matt. 7:21-23 and realize that God expects me to do "his will." Realizing that something was amiss in my understanding, I would be compelled to examine the verses that you mentioned in more detail. Understanding the context of the verses, I would conclude that Rom. 4:1-5 is discussing works under the law of Moses. The same law is being discussed in Rom. 9:30-33. The same law is also being discussed in Rom. 11:6. My conclusion from these verses is that the law of Moses does not lead us to please God today.

FC So you choose to measure all the rest of scripture by your interpretation of James 2...instead of letting all of scripture harmonize together, interpreting James 2 in light of all of scripture. Then I can't help you. If you can't see the spiritual meaning behind baptism, and how salvation is by grace through faith, and can't see how God has shown mercy from Genesis 1:1 on...I can't help you.

Paul clearly separates "works" from "faith" - whether those works are of the Law or otherwise. Part of the reason for the law was to show that we can never be good enough to earn salvation - our works are inadequate. We need the Saviour - we need His grace to be saved!!! If you miss that important message of the Bible, then you will misunderstand alot else!

[danceforjoy]

What Law was the thief on the cross under ? Answer: the Gospel ! "The Law and the prophets were until John (the baptist 27a.d.); since that time (John the baptist time) the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it." (Lk16:16). danceforjoy

[Florida College]

What Law was the thief on the cross under ? Answer: the Gospel ! "The Law and the prophets were until John (the baptist 27a.d.); since that time (John the baptist time) the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it." (Lk16:16). danceforjoy

Dance,

Let's see how well you can waltz to Heb. 9: 15-17. Seriously, if you don't mind, explain the passage.

Lk. 16:16 and Heb. 9:15-17 will harmonize. If they don't, an understanding is wrong somewhere.

FC

[Florida College]

You didn't read what I wrote, did you?


Well, I thought I did. But since you seem to know better, now I'm not sure.

1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I'll spell it out to you again - it is not the removal of dirt (water baptism) that saves you, but an appeal to God for a good conscience (spiritual circumcism - spiritual renewal and regeneration - removal of sin - spiritual cleansing). Seems clear to me!
To claim that this verse says water baptism saves is a true abuse of scripture.

". . . Eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism . . . " (1 Pet. 3:20-21 - NKJV). That is a direct quote from the last part of vs. 20 and the first part of vs. 21. The verse says that there is some sense in which baptism saves. That is explained in the latter part of vs. 21 - - "the answer of a good conscience toward God though the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (NKJV). If there is an abuse of scripture, feel free to complain to God (2 Tim. 3:16a).

[QUOTE=FreeinChrist]It is not in the earliest manuscripts. And those 11 verses have been the basis of some false teachings - like you must speak in tongues to be saved, or you must handle snakes and be bit and survive to prove your salvation ( a rather extreme group that hasn't had much growth - happily).
the evidence if there that Mark did not write them. And they are also the 11 verses not quoted by any early church father - all the rest of the NT is quoted - not those 11 verses. ]

I don't feel compelled to write off the last 11 verses of Mark. I don't teach or practice any of the false teachings that you mention that are based on those verses. Acts 2:38 is just one of many verses that would tell us that you don't have to speak in tongues to be saved. Matt. 4:5-7 teaches a principle that the snake handlers should learn. If I chose to disregard all passages that folks can create false teachings from, then there wouldn't be any scriptures left. Who are the early church fathers that you are alluding to? And can you confidently say that they approved of every verse in the N.T. except the last 11 verses of Mark.

And I believe that what I already wrote to you and to another show that the baptism spoken of that saves is spiritual, and that water baptism shows the inner change. Col. 2:12, in fact, harmonizes with what I wrote. We are spiritually baptized into His death and resurrection. Studying the Greek helps to show this.

I do not deny the spiritual significance of baptism (Rom. 6:3-11). But what does Peter, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, tell the Jews to do in Acts 2:38? What is their benefit if they do what Peter commands them (vs. 38)? And, what did those that gladly receive his word do (vs. 41)?

Define necessary as to what. Necessary to be saved? No. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. But our faith is reflected in our works - our behaviour, attitudes, deeds. If we live a life of habitual sin, then no, we don't have the faith that saves.

Since grace has been extended to all (Titus 2:11), and all will not be saved (Matt. 7:13-14, then your doctrine, in essense, is salvation by faith? I hate to sound like a broken record, but is that what Peter taught in Acts 2:38? No, it is not. Why not? There clearly is something wrong with this picture. Either an apostle of the Lord empowered with the Holy Spirit was wrong in what he told the Jews to do, or someone's interpretation of Eph. 2:8-9 is wrong. I'll let each reader decide for themselves.

Now you are being patronizing and offensive -a sure sign tha you are having difficulty supporting your position.
I wil ask YOU to fill in that blank. Why do you ignore Ephesians 2?
So you choose to measure all the rest of scripture by your interpretation of James 2...instead of letting all of scripture harmonize together, interpreting James 2 in light of all of scripture. Then I can't help you. If you can't see the spiritual meaning behind baptism, and how salvation is by grace through faith, and can't see how God has shown mercy from Genesis 1:1 on...I can't help you. ]

I think it helps sometimes to let people look at the verses themselves, rather than just tell them what the verse says. That was my only logic. If you think that I'm struggling to answer you, then stick around and see how well the reasoning stands up. I firmly am convinced that the truth is not hurt by examination. People's feelings may get hurt, but the truth will not be hurt at all. If I am wrong, then be patient enough to expose the error.

I was not aware that I am avoiding Eph. 2:8-9. I think I understand what the verses say. If I conclude that no works are necessary for salvation, then I will have a major problem with John 6:28-29, Matt. 7:21-23, and James 2:14-26. I don't recall you having much to say about those verses in James. Surely, you wouldn't be avoiding them? My salvation does not rest on James 2. But, I am not willing to disregard James 2. James 2 and Eph. 2 harmonize well if I realize that he is discussing two totally different kinds of works. Works of boasting will not benefit my efforts to get to heaven, but works of obedience (note James 2:21-23 - - What were Abraham's works? He obeyed God (Gen. 22) are absolutely necessary (Heb. 5:9).

Paul clearly separates "works" from "faith" - whether those works are of the Law or otherwise. Part of the reason for the law was to show that we can never be good enough to earn salvation - our works are inadequate. We need the Saviour - we need His grace to be saved!!! If you miss that important message of the Bible, then you will misunderstand alot else![/color]

Free,

I agree that Paul separated "faith" from "works of the law", and "faith" from "works of boasting," but did he separate "faith" from "obedience to his other commands:"
repentance (Lk. 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30
confession (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Rom. 10:9
baptism (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38,41 ; Acts 8:12 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 10:47-48 ; Acts 16:31-33 ; & Acts 22:16?

FC

[Blackhawk]

The Bible is clear that it is not the works that saves us but that we are saved by GRACE through faith. The faith we are speaking of here is not just a belief but a kind of faith the will produce works. This is what James speaks about and what Paul tells us many times.
Do we have to do good works? Yes and no. No because we are saved through faith and by GRACE ALONE. But yes because the faith that we are saved through is a faith that will produce good works if possible. The thief on thecross is a good example of one who had faith but he really did not have time to do any works. If he had time he would of done some good works because God would of given him the grace through his faith to do so.

So we are saved by the Grace of God alone. Nothing we do will save us.WE are not even saved by our faith. We are saved by God's grace through faith. This is what Luther and the other reformers taught.

Sola gratia- grace alone saves
sola fide- faith alone justifies
sola scriptura- scripture is self sufficent.

[FreeinChrist]

Well, I thought I did. But since you seem to know better, now I'm not sure.
No need to be snippy and offensive. Didn't I see a post by you complaining about others not being nice? I believe you need to take your own advice if so.


I don't feel compelled to write off the last 11 verses of Mark. I don't teach or practice any of the false teachings that you mention that are based on those verses. Acts 2:38 is just one of many verses that would tell us that you don't have to speak in tongues to be saved. Matt. 4:5-7 teaches a principle that the snake handlers should learn. If I chose to disregard all passages that folks can create false teachings from, then there wouldn't be any scriptures left. Who are the early church fathers that you are alluding to? And can you confidently say that they approved of every verse in the N.T. except the last 11 verses of Mark.
I don't write them off - but don't base my theology on them over other scripture. That is why it is important to look at the message over all.
As for the Early Church Fathers - like Clement, and Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, and Hippolypus and Eusebius and Iranaeus, etc (many of whom were martyrs) - all in the first, second, third, fourth century - their writings have been examined for centuries and centuries. And I can confidently say that they quoted all of the NT except 11 verses. Like they weren't even there. And again, those 11 verses are not in the oldest manuscripts. Something to keep in mind when arguing against another scripture using them.


I do not deny the spiritual significance of baptism (Rom. 6:3-11). But what does Peter, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, tell the Jews to do in Acts 2:38? What is their benefit if they do what Peter commands them (vs. 38)? And, what did those that gladly receive his word do (vs. 41)?
Acts 2:38 - have you bothered to check out the Greek for this verse? Considered the context - the situation? Literally translated, it means 'Repent, and be baptized for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins' - similar to " all were baptized unto Moses" as found in I Cor. 10:2. Again - it isn't the water baptism that saves, it is the repentence. And the situation is Pentecost Day - the first day that believers received the Holy Spirit!


Since grace has been extended to all (Titus 2:11), and all will not be saved (Matt. 7:13-14, then your doctrine, in essense, is salvation by faith? I hate to sound like a broken record, but is that what Peter taught in Acts 2:38? No, it is not. Why not? There clearly is something wrong with this picture. Either an apostle of the Lord empowered with the Holy Spirit was wrong in what he told the Jews to do, or someone's interpretation of Eph. 2:8-9 is wrong. I'll let each reader decide for themselves.
Do you understand that we need a Saviour because there is no way we can earn our salvation?
There is no conflict between Acts 2:38 and Ephesians 2:8-9 as I have interpreted it. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It was by faith that the OT saints got a good report. (Hebrews 11) It was because Abraham believed God would keep His promise of the Seed that he was accounted righteous back in Genesis 15. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The law didn't remove sin, or perfect, or change a person!


I was not aware that I am avoiding Eph. 2:8-9. I think I understand what the verses say. If I conclude that no works are necessary for salvation, then I will have a major problem with John 6:28-29, Matt. 7:21-23, and James 2:14-26.

I already addressed John 6:28-29. WHOSE work is it? Look at the verses:
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Does this verse mean we are saved by grace and OUR works? NO. Salvation is the work of God. It is God who draws us, who grants it to us to come to Christ, who gives us to Christ after seeing the true intent of the heart. Read the whole chapter and note these verses:
Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."



Other verses that describe God's work of salvation:
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Hbr 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Hbr 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
Hbr 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," {He then says,}
Hbr 10:17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."


Do you realize that under the new covenant - God changes us?? What didn't happen under the old that happens under the new is that God gives us hearts of flesh, having taken out the hearts of stone. He changes us.

Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

2Cr 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge

Do you see what God's work is in regards to salvation??
GOD draw, grants, gives, forgives, cleanses, qualifies, perfects, writes His law on our hearts and in our minds, forgets our sin, seals us with the Holy Spirit, makes us alive in Him, regenerates, renews, cancels the debt, establishes us in Christ, anoints us, pledges by giving us the Holy Spirit, He makes us heirs, adopting us as sons - NOT on the basis of the works we have done but because when Jesus died on the cross, our sins were nailed to the cross! God Incarnate on the cross for us!

Jhn 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Now was Jesus lying when He said this?

[FreeinChrist]

I was not aware that I am avoiding Eph. 2:8-9. I think I understand what the verses say. If I conclude that no works are necessary for salvation, then I will have a major problem with John 6:28-29, Matt. 7:21-23, and James 2:14-26. I don't recall you having much to say about those verses in James. Surely, you wouldn't be avoiding them? My salvation does not rest on James 2. But, I am not willing to disregard James 2. James 2 and Eph. 2 harmonize well if I realize that he is discussing two totally different kinds of works. Works of boasting will not benefit my efforts to get to heaven, but works of obedience (note James 2:21-23 - - What were Abraham's works? He obeyed God (Gen. 22) are absolutely necessary (Heb. 5:9).
Actually I did. And you are mutilating Ephesians 2:8-9 by the phrase "works of boasting" – exactly WHAT works are those and where is it used in Eph. 2?

Look at what it says! "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

We ARE saved by grace through faith and not by any of our works – it is a gift! IF we could something to provide salvation for ourselves, then we would be able to boast – but we can’t, we are totally dependent on GOD and HIS WORK OF SALVATION! Goodness – this is Christanity 101!


I agree that Paul separated "faith" from "works of the law", and "faith" from "works of boasting," but did he separate "faith" from "obedience to his other commands:"
repentance (Lk. 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30
confession (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Rom. 10:9
baptism (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38,41 ; Acts 8:12 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 10:47-48 ; Acts 16:31-33 ; & Acts 22:16?

FCWhat I have seen in your posts is that you do not read what the text actually says and that you mutilate the scripture to fit to James 2 as you understand it, and don’t consider context, situation or the overal plan of salvation seen by looking at the message as a whole. And no, you don’t seem to be reading my posts.

Now looking at the quote above, I see some obvious problems with your reasoning – one being that 'works of boasting' – what ever they are - is NOT referred to in Ephesians 2:8-9, just our works.

Two, you are trying to make a point that Paul does not separate faith from repentence and confession and baptism… and then use verses to back it up...and which don't follow the train of thought. Look at your support for this by using Acts 8:12 - "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women." Hmmmm…where is Paul in this verse, Florida? When I refer to Paul making a distinction between faith and works – I am referring to Paul’s writings.

And again, I do not see belief and faith as "works". The term 'works' is the Greek word 'ergon' and means performance, the result of emplyment, making or working.

But in any case, a person can claim to believe and may actually seem to initially, but it is God who grants salvtion and who gives it to us. It is not at our whim.

[danceforjoy]

Dance,

Let's see how well you can waltz to Heb. 9: 15-17. Seriously, if you don't mind, explain the passage.

Lk. 16:16 and Heb. 9:15-17 will harmonize. If they don't, an understanding is wrong somewhere.

FC
Wow! Am I up against a complete institution of learning? Please God, Jesus and Mother of God help me!!! I think with God's help we can dance and harmonize these two scriptures.
The People of the old testament were saved the same way we are, if not, then we would have a divided heaven. Those saved by works would extol their own virtues getting themselves saved.
That men were not saved by works in the old testament is clearly stated by the apostle Paul: 'even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works.' Romans 4:6 In David's time therefore, it is clear that men understood salvation by grace without the works of the law. Therefore we can easily harmonize Jesus'es words in Luke 16:16 that the Law was until john and the Ten Commandments Law keep on going, and Hebrews 9:15-17 which says that Jesus is the mediator of the new testament or covenant. He is the Lamb of God in the old as well as in the new that does the saving and not we ourselves.
Only now, the blood of God sealed both testaments or wills, and what a huge bargain He left us in His will, would you agree? (v.16,17).

[danceforjoy]

Actually I did. And you are mutilating Ephesians 2:8-9 by the phrase "works of boasting" – exactly WHAT works are those and where is it used in Eph. 2?

Look at what it says! "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

We ARE saved by grace through faith and not by any of our works – it is a gift! IF we could something to provide salvation for ourselves, then we would be able to boast – but we can’t, we are totally dependent on GOD and HIS WORK OF SALVATION! Goodness – this is Christanity 101!

[color=navy]What I have seen in your posts is that you do not read what the text actually says and that you mutilate the scripture to fit to James 2 as you understand it, and don’t consider context, situation or the overal plan of salvation seen by looking at the message as a whole. And no, you don’t seem to be reading my posts.

Now looking at the quote above, I see some obvious problems with your reasoning – one being that 'works of boasting' – what ever they are - is NOT referred to in Ephesians 2:8-9, just our works.

Two, you are trying to make a point that Paul does not separate faith from repentence and confession and baptism… and then use verses to back it up...and which don't follow the train of thought. Look at your support for this by using Acts 8:12 - "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women." Hmmmm…where is Paul in this verse, Florida? When I refer to Paul making a distinction between faith and works – I am referring to Paul’s writings.

And again, I do not see belief and faith as "works". The term 'works' is the Greek word 'ergon' and means performance, the result of emplyment, making or working.

But in any case, a person can claim to believe and may actually seem to initially, but it is God who grants salvtion and who gives it to us. It is not at our whim.


work of faith 1.Thess.1:3 could be an odd quote of Paul. Sorry for budding in on you. dance.

[FreeinChrist]

work of faith 1.Thess.1:3 could be an odd quote of Paul. Sorry for budding in on you. dance.
Read on in the book because Paul commends the Thessalonians for their example and outreach ("For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you..." vs 8). Our 'work of faith' is to reach out to other for Christ, to witness by example, to show the love of Jesus, etc. Our works reflect our faith, which is what James is saying when looking over the whole book.

Paul isn't saying that their "work of faith" saves them.

[Fiskare]

Florida College,

No, faith does not discard the necessity to obey the commandments of God.

The real issue here seems to be overlooked- that is, the definition of faith. Let's get to the bottom of the matter.

Luther again-

Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream
is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by
good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they
speak and hear much about faith. ``Faith is not enough,'' they
say, ``You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.''
They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working,
creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, ``I
believe.'' That is what they think true faith is. But, because
this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything
from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn't come from this
`faith,' either.

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of
God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy,
joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
fire!Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard
against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough
to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.
Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without
faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.

So, the issue as to whether or not Abraham would have been justified if he had not obeyed God is a nonsense- because he was responding to God with the faith he already had. He would not have even considered sacrificing Issac unless he had the faith to trust God.

Luther- (from his commentary on Galatians, Ch 3- I've edited it a lot too)

Objections to the Doctrine of Faith Disproved


"Here we shall take the time to enter upon the objections which our opponents raise against the doctrine of faith. There are many passages in the Bible that deal with works and the reward of works which our opponents cite against us in the belief that these will disprove the doctrine of faith which we teach......In the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews we find a catalogue of various works and deeds of the saints of the Bible. David, who killed a lion and a bear, and defeated Goliath, is mentioned. In the heroic deeds of David the scholastic can discover nothing more than outward achievement. But the deeds of David must be evaluated according to the personality of David. When we understand that David was a man of faith, whose heart trusted in the Lord, we shall understand why he could do such heroic deeds......Before David could achieve a single heroic deed he was already a man beloved of God, strong and constant in faith.

Of Abel it is said in the same Epistle: "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain." When the scholastics come upon the parallel passage in Genesis 4:4 they get no further than the words: "And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering." "Aha!" they cry. "See, God has respect to offerings. Works do justify." With mud in their eyes they cannot see that the text says in Genesis that the Lord had respect to the person of Abel first. Abel pleased the Lord because of his faith. Because the person of Abel pleased the Lord, the offering of Abel pleased the Lord also. The Epistle to the Hebrews expressly states: "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice."

In our dealings with God the work is worth nothing without faith, for "without faith it is impossible to please him." (Hebrews 11:6.) The sacrifice of Abel was better than the sacrifice of Cain, because Abel had faith.........."Do this and thou shalt live," means: First have faith in Christ, and Christ will enable you to do and to live.

.......Abraham was accounted righteous because faith pervaded his whole personality and his every action....

When you read how the fathers, prophets, and kings accomplished great deeds, remember to explain them as the Epistle to the Hebrews accounts for them: "Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions." (Hebrews 11:33.) In this way will we correctly interpret all those passages that seem to support the righteousness of works. The Law is truly observed only through faith. ...



Supposing that this explanation will not satisfy the scholastics, supposing that they should completely wrap me up in their arguments (they cannot do it), I would rather be wrong and give all credit to Christ alone. Here is Christ. Paul, Christ's apostle, declares that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." (Gal. 3:13.) I hear with my own ears that I cannot be saved except by the blood and death of Christ. I conclude, therefore, that it is up to Christ to overcome my sins, and not up to the Law, or my own efforts. If He is the price of my redemption, if He was made sin for my justification, I don't give a care if you quote me a thousand Scripture passages for the righteousness of works against the righteousness of faith. I have the Author and Lord of the Scriptures on my side. I would rather believe Him than all that riffraff of "pious" law workers. "

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Bottom line

are we saved by works James 2 as Florida says
or
are we saved by grace and mercy thru faith as Eph 2 says



salvation then works eph 2
or
works then salvation james 2 according to florida

[FreeinChrist]

Florida College,

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
words.


Great post! I like the definition of God's work in us, and that Luther gives all the credit to Christ. That was what I was trying to say when I wrote of God's work of salvation.

[Fiskare]

Bottom line

are we saved by works James 2 as Florida says
or
are we saved by grace and mercy thru faith as Eph 2 says



salvation then works eph 2
or
works then salvation james 2 according to florida
Try salvation FOR good works. There is no point being saved (God's action, not ours) unless we respond by obeying and doing His commandments of good works (good works can only ever be done by faith anyway!) which He has ordained for us.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

talking what comes first not a bye product

[Fiskare]

talking what comes first not a bye product
Who said there was some kind of chronological order anyway? It's a mysterious action of God. Grace saves us, the means is faith. Grace comes first, but uses faith, and then we live the faith out. If anything, it's grace first, because only those foreordained to eternal life will believe (Acts 13:48), and the life of good works is the life of faith, any attempt at good works before faith (the gift of faith itself is an action of grace that God gives us) is filthy rags.

I think the analogy I gave in the other thread answers it best- a cow goes "moo" because it is a cow, not to become a cow. Hence, a Christian does good works because he has faith, not to get faith. He does good works because he is a christian, not to become one.

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

agreed..faith then works

[Ken]

works are the fruit.. not the root...

[Lotar]

works are the fruit.. not the root...
:D

[Florida College]

I already pointed out that that Abram was accounted righteous simply for believing. And God KNOWS his people, He knew what Abraham would do. And consider this: Abraham was told by God to leave his father's house back in Genesis 12 - and Abraham didn't, not for years - not til his father died. God's punishment? none.

My point about Abraham is that Abraham’s faith prompted him to obey God when he was given a command. I believe that he obeyed God when he was instructed to leave Ur (Gen. 11:31-12:5 ; Acts 7:2-4 ; Heb. 11:8).

As I read your comments about Abraham, I am left with the distinct impression that Abraham delayed in obeying God? Is that indeed what you are trying to say, or am I mistaken? I understand from reading the various texts that Abraham left Ur and spent some time in Haran while on the way to Canaan. Terah died in Haran (Gen. 11:32).

Later in Abraham’s life, God commanded him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeyed God (Gen. 22:1-19. The extent of Abraham’s faith is given in Heb. 11:17-19. James 2:21-24 uses this event to show the relationship of faith and works i.e. - - 22 & 24.

Ephesians 2:8 - 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast." If faith is works, then this verse needs to be rewritten to: 'for by grace are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God: not of works except the work of faith, lest any man boast - except in his faith.' This verse shows that faith is not part of works.

The verse is just fine the way that it is written. Faith is a work (John 6:28-29). Eph. 2:8-9 is simply discussing works that one could boast about. God has produced all the evidence to generate faith. It is up to each person to accept the evidence. When a person believes, there is no room for boasting (Lk. 17:7-10).

That faith is not works is not the least contrary to John 6:28-29.
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now, Whose works are they? And consider these verses:
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
See the Father's role - He draws us, He teaches, He grants to us to come to Jjesus, and He gives us to Jesus. He knows who beleives and who doesn't really believe.

After considering all that you have said about John 6:28-29, here is what I still don’t understand: the Jews ask a question in verse 28, “What shall we do, that we may work the work of God?” I understand Jesus’ response in verse 29 to be, “This is the work of God [This is what God wants you to do], that you believe in Him whom He sent.” I think the key to understanding this verse is focusing on this key phrase - - “you believe in Him.” Belief is something that each individual is responsible for. God gives the evidence, but it is up to each individual to believe it. "Believe in him." This is what the Lord would have us do. Note Peter's response in vs. 69, "We have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." God gave the evidence, but it was up to each person whether or not to believe it.

Hbr 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hbr 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Hbr 9:17 For a covenant is valid {only} when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

The fact remains that the thief was on his cross for a crime, which isn't following any law, and he was forgiven for believing in Jesus Christ. Since his belief was in the mediator of the New Covenant, I beleive that a case could be made that he in the new Covennant - but it's a moot point.
He was saved because he believed. Not on the basis of works.

The thief on the cross was also saved while the law of Moses was in effect. Jesus testament was not yet in effect (Heb. 9:15-17).

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12). Before we conclude that faith is all that is necessary for salvation today, it would be wise to examine others scriptures to make sure that we have not overlooked anything under Jesus’ testament that is required for salvation i.e. Acts 2:38 (yes, I read your point about the verse and I will deal with it when I get to that particular post) ; Acts 17:30 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 16:30-33 ; Acts 22:16.

But God's grace is seen throughout the whole bible - how many times did he forgive Israel? Isn't the fact that through the person of Jesus Christ, God himself made atonement for sin evidence of His grace? That the Tablets were put inside the Ark and the mercy seat put on top is also evidence of God's grace, for as James also says, "mercy triumphs over judgement."

By grace, the OT saints were saved through faith in a God's promise of the Seed of Abraham. Since Christ, we are saved by grace through faith in the realized promise of the Seed - Jesus Christ.

Grace (or favor) starts as early as Gen. 6:8. God’s favor (or grace) was apparent on individuals and nations throughout the Old and New Testament books. But I still do not see grace as being the emphasis of Hebrews chapter 11. Rather, faith is being emphasized.

And I believe you need to read scripture and interpret it IN CONTEXT.
[color=purple]Jhn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."
That verse is talking about believing in Jesus as Messiah for eternal life, not about 'works'.

Look at the wording of John 8:24. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins." Jesus direct statement told them (and us) that faith is up to the individual person - - "unless you believe . . . you will die." Belief is a work that we do. It is the work that God would have us do (John 6:28-29).

Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing {Him,} for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
Jhn 12:43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Your answer is right there, really - they 'beleived', but not really, for they loved the approval of man over God. Again, there is no salvation for them unless God approves. I refer you again to John 6.

What is this stuff about “they believed, but not really.” Where is that in John 12:42-43? It is not there. They believed, but would not confess the Lord. Therefore, they were not approved of God. If "faith only" is necessary to please God, why did these rulers that had faith (that is what the verse says) not please God?

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
The book of James needs to be understood in light of all of scripture - and frequently I see it taken on it's own, outside of the rest of scripture and abused somewhat. As I stated, what we learn from James is that true faith is evidenced by our behaviour and deeds. This is a concept supported by the rest of scripture.

Your observations about James 2 are somewhat different than mine. I normally see most people totally ignore the latter part of the chapter. Usually, when I mention James 2:14-26, I am immediately referred to Eph. 2:8-9. But shouldn’t we believe “all scripture” (2 Tim. 3:16-17)? Each verse should be understood in its context, and then the understanding checked for harmony. I do not practice or teach salvation by works, but do practice and teach that we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation (Heb. 5:8-9).

Let's put it this way: a person hears the gospel, says a prayer of repentence, asks Jesus into his heart one night...and then goes on to live a totally Godless life and never thinks of Christ again. Is he saved? no.God looks into the heart, sees the true intent, and has to grant salvation to the person. Afterall, it is God who forgives, and cleanses and seals with the Holy Spirit. Do you think an omnipotent, omniscient God can look at this person and know it isn't sincere? I do. ]

I agree - - God is all-powerful and all-knowing and looks upon the heart of the sinner coming to him. But what does one have to do to be saved? Is faith necessary? Is repentance necessary? Is confession necessary? Is baptism necessary? I think we are in agreement that faith prompts one to act. So, which of these commands do we have to obey in order to be saved?

and again, the demons know who Jesus is and temble - but there is no hope for them. there is no salvation plan for them. They believed while in God's presence, but didn't have the faith to stick with God over Satan. To make an analogy, it's like a person who says he believes in Jesus and makes lipservice about it, but never has evidence of it in his life. He doesn't truly believe, and he isn't saved - for God knows the true intent of the heart. Salvation is not at the whim of man, but granted to us from God upon true repentence and belief.

Free,

This reasoning does not fit the context of James 2:14-26 at all. Faith must be coupled with works (vs. 18). The demons have faith (vs. 19). Faith without works is dead (vs. 20). That is the extent of the illustration concerning demons.

I am reading your posts. They are lengthy. I will be responding to them as I get to them. I am reading and carefully considering every one of them. I ask only that you do the same.

You have said that I am snippy and offensive, and that I can't read a scripture in its context. I have no such foolish charges to make to you. I will let those who read the posts make their own determinations.

FC

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

[QUOTE=Florida College My point about Abraham is that Abraham’s faith prompted him to obey God when he was given a command. I believe that he obeyed God when he was instructed to leave Ur (Gen. 11:31-12:5 ; Acts 7:2-4 ; Heb. 11:8).

As I read your comments about Abraham, I am left with the distinct impression that Abraham delayed in obeying God? Is that indeed what you are trying to say, or am I mistaken? I understand from reading the various texts that Abraham left Ur and spent some time in Haran while on the way to Canaan. Terah died in Haran (Gen. 11:32). \
Lot his brother son gen 12:5 after in Gen 12:1 get thee away from thy kindred ...


who is Lot ...his kindred

Later in Abraham’s life, God commanded him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeyed God (Gen. 22:1-19. The extent of Abraham’s faith is given in Heb. 11:17-19. James 2:21-24 uses this event to show the relationship of faith and works i.e. - - 22 & 24.



The verse is just fine the way that it is written. Faith is a work (John 6:28-29). Eph. 2:8-9 is simply discussing works that one could boast about. God has produced all the evidence to generate faith. It is up to each person to accept the evidence. When a person believes, there is no room for boasting (Lk. 17:7-10).



After considering all that you have said about John 6:28-29, here is what I still don’t understand: the Jews ask a question in verse 28, “What shall we do, that we may work the work of God?” I understand Jesus’ response in verse 29 to be, “This is the work of God [This is what God wants you to do], that you believe in Him whom He sent.” I think the key to understanding this verse is focusing on this key phrase - - “you believe in Him.”
In context it is God's work to have you believe not yours...... funny how you argue with simple english

Belief is something that each individual is responsible for. God gives the evidence, but it is up to each individual to believe it. "Believe in him." This is what the Lord would have us do. Note Peter's response in vs. 69, "We have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." God gave the evidence, but it was up to each person whether or not to believe it.



The thief on the cross was also saved while the law of Moses was in effect. Jesus testament was not yet in effect (Heb. 9:15-17).

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12). Before we conclude that faith is all that is necessary for salvation today, it would be wise to examine others scriptures to make sure that we have not overlooked anything under Jesus’ testament that is required for salvation i.e. Acts 2:38 (yes, I read your point about the verse and I will deal with it when I get to that particular post) ; Acts 17:30 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 16:30-33 ; Acts 22:16.



Grace (or favor) starts as early as Gen. 6:8. God’s favor (or grace) was apparent on individuals and nations throughout the Old and New Testament books. But I still do not see grace as being the emphasis of Hebrews chapter 11. Rather, faith is being emphasized.



Look at the wording of John 8:24. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins." Jesus direct statement told them (and us) that faith is up to the individual person - - "unless you believe . . . you will die." Belief is a work that we do. It is the work that God would have us do (John 6:28-29).



What is this stuff about “they believed, but not really.” Where is that in John 12:42-43? It is not there. They believed, but would not confess the Lord. Therefore, they were not approved of God. If "faith only" is necessary to please God, why did these rulers that had faith (that is what the verse says) not please God?



Your observations about James 2 are somewhat different than mine. I normally see most people totally ignore the latter part of the chapter. Usually, when I mention James 2:14-26, I am immediately referred to Eph. 2:8-9. But shouldn’t we believe “all scripture” (2 Tim. 3:16-17)? Each verse should be understood in its context, and then the understanding checked for harmony. I do not practice or teach salvation by works, but do practice and teach that we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation (Heb. 5:8-9).

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit


2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...Eph 1:4


I agree - - God is all-powerful and all-knowing and looks upon the heart of the sinner coming to him. But what does one have to do to be saved?Romans 4:5 Is faith necessary? Gal 5:22 Is repentance necessary? romans 4:5 Is confession necessary?romans 4:5 Is baptism necessary?1 cor 12:13 I think we are in agreement that faith prompts one to act. So, which of these commands do we have to obey in order to be saved? NONE ....GOD DID ALL THE WORK ...why do we get crowns and throw back the crown back to God ....saying thou art worthy .........[thus saying we do not deserve this ....you do.]



Free,

This reasoning does not fit the context of James 2:14-26 at all. Faith must be coupled with works (vs. 18). The demons have faith (vs. 19). Faith without works is dead (vs. 20). That is the extent of the illustration concerning demons.

Demons got to meet face to face with the Lord thus that is by sight thus soulish believe like in exodus 4:30-31 that the Jews had and forgot about in exodus 6:9 since it was not spiritual belief

thus the demons did not have faith since that is Heb 11:1

I am reading your posts. They are lengthy. I will be responding to them as I get to them. I am reading and carefully considering every one of them. I ask only that you do the same.

You have said that I am snippy and offensive, and that I can't read a scripture in its context. I have no such foolish charges to make to you. I will let those who read the posts make their own determinations. I ditto his comments

FC

[western kentucky]

A Brethren,

You always turn to Romans 4:5 to rule out obedience.....

In Romans 4, "works" and "obedience" are different ideas.

In Romans 4:4, the "worker" is referred to as a man who God owes a debt because he earns his task flawlessly (grace is removed). In Rom. 4:5, the "non - worker" is the man to whom God owes nothing because he failed in his task.

In this chapter, Paul is approaching: One who claims to be righteous because he has done enough..... Paul's answer: Works is not the basis for justification.

This is the only way that Rom. 4:5 can be in harmony with the rest of the bible. How else could you harmonize Rom. 4:5 and James 2:17. I would like for you to explain that to me.

James 2:14-26 is a passage that approaches a different problem. Problem faced: One who claims to be righteous without doing anything. Answer: Works is the means for justifcation.

If 1 Cor. 12:13 is the baptism that Eph. 4:5 is talking about... then what about Acts 8:25-40. In previous discussions, I have explained myself enough regarding my position. Now, it is your turn to do the explaining. How do you "harmonize" 1 Cor. 12:13 and Acts 8:25-40?

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

).

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit


2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...Eph 1:4



you for got these verses western kentucky

[FreeinChrist]

My point about Abraham is that Abraham’s faith prompted him to obey God when he was given a command. I believe that he obeyed God when he was instructed to leave Ur (Gen. 11:31-12:5 ; Acts 7:2-4 ; Heb. 11:8).

As I read your comments about Abraham, I am left with the distinct impression that Abraham delayed in obeying God? Is that indeed what you are trying to say, or am I mistaken? I understand from reading the various texts that Abraham left Ur and spent some time in Haran while on the way to Canaan. Terah died in Haran (Gen. 11:32).
I was studying this recently and because of some related scripture, we came to the conclusion, as I remember it, that he delayed. But that is not obvious in Genesis 12 or clearly stated, so I will back off that point. However, God did say, "Go forth from your country, and from your relatives, and from your father's house..." and Abraham took Lot, a relative. He didn't obey to the letter. Then later he goes to Eygpt, pretends he isn't married to Sarai, and didn't speak up when Pharoah took Sarai as wife....and God did not punish Abram, but punished Pharoah.
Then, after the covenant God made with Abram in Genesis 15, where he is accounted righteous, Abraham takes Hagar - helping God along, I suppose. And God did not punish him. Just said no, it will be with Sarai. But what do you think of that 'work'?


Later in Abraham’s life, God commanded him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeyed God (Gen. 22:1-19. The extent of Abraham’s faith is given in Heb. 11:17-19. James 2:21-24 uses this event to show the relationship of faith and works i.e. - - 22 & 24.
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jam 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jam 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jam 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This passage includes that Abraham believed and was reckoned as righteous. Let's look at the word 'justify'. The Greek word is 'dikaloo'. Verbs ending in 'oo' often mean 'to bring out that which a person is or that which is desired'. Abraham was accounted righteous back in Genesis 15. When he obeyed God in taking Isaac to be sacrificed on Mt. Moriah - that showed his righteousness, his faith. To be plainer, he was saved back in Genesis 15, he was shown saved in Gen. 22.
This backs up what James is saying - You can claim to be rightous, claim to have faith, but if your actions don't show it, then you aren't saved and you don't have faith. Tht is the essence of what James is saying. Look at verse 14: Jam 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Someone "says" he has faith...
It goes back to all that I have already written to you in regards to WHO does the work of salvation? It's God. And I have given alot of scripture to back it up.



Eph. 2:8-9 is simply discussing works that one could boast about.

That statement is a joke. I am sorry to be rude, but it is just plain ridiculous. You are totally ignoring what it says.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
It is not of ourselves! Not at all by any efoort on our part! It is a gift! We don't earn it.
And I have given you alot of scripture that you are ignoring.

The verse is just fine the way that it is written. Faith is a work (John 6:28-29).
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Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
God 'work' sent Jesus to the world. It's is God's plan of salvation at work when Jesus was on earth, went to the cross, bore our sins, was buried and rose again. Yikes, Florida - this IS Christianity 101!

After considering all that you have said about John 6:28-29, here is what I still don’t understand: the Jews ask a question in verse 28, “What shall we do, that we may work the work of God?” I understand Jesus’ response in verse 29 to be, “This is the work of God [This is what God wants you to do], that you believe in Him whom He sent.” I think the key to understanding this verse is focusing on this key phrase - - “you believe in Him.” Belief is something that each individual is responsible for. God gives the evidence, but it is up to each individual to believe it. "Believe in him." This is what the Lord would have us do. Note Peter's response in vs. 69, "We have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." God gave the evidence, but it was up to each person whether or not to believe it.
That is ok as stated - but you also need to look at Who does the work of salvation and also look at what else it says in John 6. I already posted it. We either believe or we don't - and it is God who looks into the heart and sees whether we do or not. Salvation is not at the whim of man.
And if we truly believe. it will show in our lives by changes, in our behaviours and attitudes, by our deeds.

The thief on the cross was also saved while the law of Moses was in effect. Jesus testament was not yet in effect (Heb. 9:15-17).
Proof, then, that salvation has always been by grace through faith.

[FreeinChrist]

).

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit


2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...Eph 1:4



you for got these verses western kentucky

AMEN!

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

A Brethren,


If 1 Cor. 12:13 is the baptism that Eph. 4:5 is talking about... then what about Acts 8:25-40. In previous discussions, I have explained myself enough regarding my position. Now, it is your turn to do the explaining. How do you "harmonize" 1 Cor. 12:13 and Acts 8:25-40?
Act 8:27 is about an Eunch that was a believer in the dispensation of Law where they were promise land and blessings BUT we as the dispensation of Grace are promised a better promise as Hebrews 11:40 states ...

One such promise is John 17:20-24 is promised and realized in Act 2 of the Holy spirit, The Son and The Father resides in us.... and promised to the Church of being with God forever as the bride...

So in Acts 8:27 the Eunuch going to Jerusalem to worship ...OT believer

Phillip told him OT vs in 8:32,35

Eunuch believed that JC was God...Romans 4:5
act 8:37 in that moment he was 1cor 12:13

then he got water baptized to show he was a new man

[FreeinChrist]

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12). Before we conclude that faith is all that is necessary for salvation today, it would be wise to examine others scriptures to make sure that we have not overlooked anything under Jesus’ testament that is required for salvation i.e. Acts 2:38 (yes, I read your point about the verse and I will deal with it when I get to that particular post) ; Acts 17:30 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 16:30-33 ; Acts 22:16.
Let's look at one passage you use in trying to support that water baptism saves, thus works are required (contrary to alot of scripture already posted):
Act 8:26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a desert {road.})
Act 8:27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,
Act 8:28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
Act 8:30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
Act 8:31 And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: "HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
Act 8:33 "IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH."
Act 8:34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please {tell me,} of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?"
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
Act 8:36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
Act 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
Now let's look at what happened and what it says. The Eunuch was already being drawn to Jesus by the Spirit of God - he was reading Isaiah. The Spirit of God furthur moved to reach this eunuch by sending Phillip to him and the eunuch as open to learning what the word of God says. The eunuch believed and asked to be baptized, and he was. (God drew, granted and gave - see john 6)
Doe this passage say that he was saved after the baptism or before? It doesn't clearly state that salvation came after - and this passage does not back up your statements above.



Grace (or favor) starts as early as Gen. 6:8.

God's grace began in the garden of Eden, when God first 'sacrificed' an animal to make skins to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve - 'covering' their sin. From then on, animal sacrifice 'covered' sin but never took it away - not till Christ. God's grace was apparent also in the garden with the promise of the 'seed of the woman' who would bruise the head of the seed of the serpent'. That is not a reference to men and snakes, but to Christ (seed of the woman) and Antichrist (seed of the serpent). He knew it and planned it all from the beginning:
Isa 46:9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; {I am} God, and there is no one like Me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
Isa 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned {it, surely} I will do it.



Look at the wording of John 8:24. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins." Jesus direct statement told them (and us) that faith is up to the individual person - - "unless you believe . . . you will die." Belief is a work that we do. It is the work that God would have us do (John 6:28-29).
"Belief" is not a 'work' - if so, then Paul and God are liars.
And I have already responded to John 6:28-29.
If you choose to disagree - fine. You are not backing your points up as far as I am concerned.


What is this stuff about “they believed, but not really.”

Ever read the parable of the soils? Ever meet someone who claimed to be a Christian, but never asked Christ in their heart? Never acknowledged their sin? No evidence of faith at all?
Our claiming belief is not enough - it has to be sincere in our heart. and God knows who is sincere and who isn't. He can see into our heart, Florida, and know:Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
God knows - He draw, grants, gives, forgives, cleanses, mades new, makes alive, seals with the Holy Spirit of promise as a pledge of our inheritance...
We cannot take any credit.

[FreeinChrist]

Your observations about James 2 are somewhat different than mine. I normally see most people totally ignore the latter part of the chapter. Usually, when I mention James 2:14-26, I am immediately referred to Eph. 2:8-9. But shouldn’t we believe “all scripture” (2 Tim. 3:16-17)? Each verse should be understood in its context, and then the understanding checked for harmony. I do not practice or teach salvation by works, but do practice and teach that we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation (Heb. 5:8-9).

Then you are not listening to all of scripture, and changing what doesn't fit your concept of James 2 says. I already wrote about the word for justify in James 2 in a post above. And yes, you are teaching salvation by works when you write, 'we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation' - no, we have to believe, God must see that it is true belief, God must draw, grant, give.....
Hbr 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Hbr 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Hbr 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
Hbr 5:10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
To obey unto salvation is to believe. The main conflict I see here is that you define works as believe and faith, and also as actions like baptising and mor. But I don't believe that scripture uses 'works' in that manner, nor does James. James is chiding folks for showing favortism to the rich, gossip, fighting, jealousies, etc. He is using works as what they are doing - i.e . what fruit they are showing.

Perhaps someone else can explain to you better.


I agree - - God is all-powerful and all-knowing and looks upon the heart of the sinner coming to him. But what does one have to do to be saved? Is faith necessary? Is repentance necessary? Is confession necessary? Is baptism necessary? I think we are in agreement that faith prompts one to act. So, which of these commands do we have to obey in order to be saved?
They are not 'works' as it is referring to in scripture, FC.
Yes, one must repent (involves confession) and believe.
But GOD does the work of salvation. It is He who 'baptizes with the Holy Spirit (seals us), and cleanses, renews regenerates...He does not do it at our whim, a momentary claim of belief, but if HE sees that it is sincere.

Water baptism is an outward confession of an inward change.
And in trying to make your case, you have made a broad definition of 'works' to include belief.
If our works are required for salvation, then God and Paul lied.

FC, I have given you scripture, and so have others. At length. I haven't seen that you really back your position up.

[western kentucky]

).

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit


2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...Eph 1:4



you for got these verses western kentucky
No, I did not forget these verses. Did you forget James 2:14-26? I am asking you to harmonize Rom. 4:5 with James 2:14-26. Instead, you use two other verses that pretty much fall in line with Romans 4:5.

Titus 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Rom. 4:5; These passages all speak of the same point. We do not earn our salvation. God does not owe us anything. We all have sinned and we have all fallen short of his glory. We are saved by grace - meaning that we do not earn our salvation. Does this mean that we don't have to obey God's commands? How do you draw that idea from this passage.

Rom. 4:5 - non worker = justified
James 2:14-26 = works is the means for justification

How can you harmonize these passages? Rom. 4:5 says "but to the one who does not work," and James 2:17 says, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

It is not that difficult. Romans 4:5 is not drawing a parallel between "works" and "obedience." In Romans 4:5, works = the man God owes a debt to because he has earned his task flawlessly (grace is removed). James 2:14-26 is approaching a complete different problem. The problem faced: One who claims to be righteous without doing anything. The answer: Works is the means for justification.

A brethren, now it is your turn to harmonize Rom. 4:5 and James 2:14-26.....

[western kentucky]

Free in Christ,

You said, "Yes, one must