The Armenian genocide....

[Philothei]

I had to post this one just for the sake of all the martyrs.... Also feel free to offer other information about the Hellenic-Kurdish -Cypriot genocides....

God bless,
Philothei:crosseo: :crosseo: :crosseo:


Turkey weighs costly retaliation on Armenian resolution Mutual efforts at the highest level in Ankara and Washington have failed to prevent approval by a US House of Representatives committee of a resolution calling the 1915 mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks genocide, leading both capitals to thoroughly analyze what should be done to control damage to bilateral relations.

http://medya.todayszaman.com/todayszaman/2007/10/12/armenian.jpg On Wednesday hundreds of Turks marched to the US Embassy in Ankara and the consulate in İstanbul to protest the bill.
In addition to the problems facing the future of bilateral relations, Turkey must also cope with the challenge of finding a reasonable way to respond to the US House Committee on Foreign Affairs decision that will, in particular, ease the pressure from public opinion that has been fueled by anger against the US due to its inaction regarding the terrorist threat posed to Turkey by the outlawed Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK).
The ball is now in the court of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who can, in theory, block the measure. Few expect she will do so, however, given her open support for the genocide allegations and pre-election pledges to work for congressional acknowledgement of the charges.
Nonetheless, in the face of growing impatience among both Turkish officials and the public, the Turkish capital is not likely to wait to see whether or not the resolution will be sent forward for a vote by the entire House of Representatives. As of Thursday afternoon, senior military and diplomatic figures were discussing ways to retaliate in a lengthy meeting held at the Foreign Ministry in Ankara.
In the early hours of Thursday morning, following long hours of situation analysis, the Foreign Ministry issued a government statement in which it clearly warned that relations with the United States would be damaged by the US House committee's approval of the controversial resolution. The government statement came as Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan prepared to ask Parliament, controlled by his ruling Justice and Development Party (AK Party), to authorize a military incursion into northern Iraq to fight PKK members using the region as a base.

“The committee’s approval of this resolution was an irresponsible move which, coming at a very sensitive time, will make relations with a friend, ally and strategic partner that have been nurtured over generations, more difficult,” the government said in the statement. “Our government regrets and condemns this decision. It is unacceptable that the Turkish nation has been accused of something that never happened,” it stressed.
Turkey, which has NATO’s second biggest army and plays a key role in a volatile region, has warned of damage to bilateral ties and military cooperation if Congress passes the measure.
The House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs approved the resolution 27-21. The text says the World War I killings of Armenians constituted a “genocide” that should be acknowledged fully in US foreign policy towards Turkey, along with “the consequences of the failure to realize a just resolution.” It now goes to the House floor, where Democratic leaders say there will be a vote by mid-November. There is a companion bill in the Senate, but both measures are strictly symbolic and do not require the president’s signature.
Ankara said it would do all it could to stop the resolution from being approved by the assembly.
Ankara rejects the Armenian position, backed by many Western historians and some foreign parliaments, that up to 1.5 million Armenians suffered genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks during World War I.
Turkey says many Muslim Turks died alongside Christian Armenians in inter-ethnic conflict as the Ottoman Empire collapsed.
Words
In an apparent display of having taken Ankara’s warnings seriously, US President George W. Bush and his top lieutenants had been unusually blunt in attacking the resolution in the run-up to the vote, with Bush saying: “We all deeply regret the tragic suffering of the Armenian people. This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings. Its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror.”
After the vote was passed, US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns said, “We are disappointed by the vote at the House of Representatives today.”
The department was communicating to Turkey its unhappiness with the vote and its desire to keep working closely with Ankara, he added.
Turkey’s president, Abdullah Gül, denounced the vote as “unacceptable” earlier Thursday. “Unfortunately, some politicians in the United States ignored appeals for common sense and once again moved to sacrifice big issues to petty games of domestic politics,” he said.
“This is not an action that suits or benefits the representatives of a great power like the United States,” he added.
Deeds
One particular sentence in the government statement on Thursday actually indicates countless windings on the thorny road ahead of Turkish-US bilateral relations: “The fact that a committee of the House of Representatives moved ahead with this resolution -- which will jeopardize a strategic partnership and relations with a friend and ally country at an extremely sensitive period of time -- is an irresponsible attitude.”
Faced with the day after, the Turkish capital is now thoroughly and, perhaps, reluctantly evaluating ways of retaliation. Thoroughly and reluctantly because retaliation through halting cooperation with the United States in strategic and economic areas is a double-edged sword that may equally harm Turkey, analysts agree. High tension in relations with the United States may prove to be an undesired situation for the Turkish government, which has worked carefully and successfully to achieve economic stability throughout the nearly five years that it has been in power.
As the White House had underlined, Turkey is an important logistical player in the Iraq war. The bulk of supplies for troops in Iraq pass through Turkey’s İncirlik airbase, and Turkey provides thousands of truck drivers and other workers for US operations in Iraq. Supplies also flow from the base to troops in Afghanistan.
A closure of İncirlik and halting cooperation with the United States on Iraq could be two ways of hurting US interests in a critical region like the Middle East. There are other steps that Turkish officials have refrained from publicly mentioning, such as cutting Turkey’s ongoing support for operations of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan or further tightening restrictions on ties with Armenia. There are tens of thousands of Armenians working in Turkey who do not meet the proper legal requirements, such as obtaining work or residence permits. And although there are no formal ties with Armenia, charter flights are in service between the two countries and Turkish goods find their way into the Armenian market.
Unfortunate link
Furthermore, Turkish officials have lately been sending out warnings that not only US-Turkey ties but also regional cooperation with Israel would suffer if the Armenian resolution is passed in the US Congress, after influential US Jewish group the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) changed its long-held position and decided to call the World War I events “genocide.”
Meanwhile, the growing resentment among Turkish officials and the public triggered by the loss of dozens of civilians and soldiers in attacks by the PKK leads many analysts to suspect a potential link between the resolution and a proposed Turkish incursion into northern Iraq.
“Unfortunately there is a link between the bill and a Turkish incursion into northern Iraq because the Turkish public will be greatly angered towards the United States, and the government will share those feelings,” Faruk Loğoğlu, a former influential Turkish ambassador to Washington, told Reuters.
“However, I don’t think the madness of the Armenian bill would be a green light for an incursion into northern Iraq. On the contrary the US should, and may, do something against the PKK to appease the Turkish state and its people,” he said.
A senior Turkish diplomat said Ankara was disappointed with US and Iraqi authorities for failing to stop the PKK. He said the Turkish government was still hoping that their US and Iraqi counterparts would deal with the terrorists.
“When it comes to the link between the Armenian bill and a possible incursion into northern Iraq, I can only say that we have never been this close to carrying out a large-scale military operation into northern Iraq,” the senior Turkish diplomat told Reuters.
Mutual pain
As a matter of fact, the strategic aspect of relations between Ankara and Washington was once again highlighted on Thursday, this time on the US side, in the form of a press statement by the US ambassador to Turkey, Ross Wilson.
Noting that US President Bush, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, other administration officials and he “categorically oppose” the resolution, Wilson said he “deeply regretted the decision by the House Foreign Affairs Committee to send this resolution forward for a vote by the entire House.” While expressing hope that the resolution will not be passed, Wilson pledged he would continue his efforts to convince US congressmen not to approve it. “The partnership between Turkey and the United States is strong and will remain so. We are determined to pursue our common vital interests and strengthen our shared values,” Wilson concluded.

[Philothei]

....to petty games of domestic politics.... By Abdullah Gul...


this is how a Genocide of such an enormous stature is characterized by the Turkish president :(

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=124558

yet another interesting article from the same paper...

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

Bump...

[Futuwwa]

....to petty games of domestic politics.... By Abdullah Gul...


this is how a Genocide of such an enormous stature is characterized by the Turkish president :(

God bless,
Philothei

This is most disheartening to hear. I had hopes that the AKP would lead Turkey away from the fascistoid nationalism of the Kemalists, but it seems like they're perfectly content to inherit their stances on things. It's easy to see why people lose faith in democracy, when the policy remains the same regardless of who is in power.

But Gul has a point. The decision by the Democrats to push for recognization of the genocide might be right, but the reasons why they're doing it? The Democrats seem to have invested as much political prestige into Iraq being impossible to win that I wouldn't be surprised if this is a deliberate attempt to weaken the war effort, and bring on the failure which they've prophesized all along. Petty politics indeed.

[Lukaris]

This is most disheartening to hear. I had hopes that the AKP would lead Turkey away from the fascistoid nationalism of the Kemalists, but it seems like they're perfectly content to inherit their stances on things. It's easy to see why people lose faith in democracy, when the policy remains the same regardless of who is in power.

But Gul has a point. The decision by the Democrats to push for recognization of the genocide might be right, but the reasons why they're doing it? The Democrats seem to have invested as much political prestige into Iraq being impossible to win that I wouldn't be surprised if this is a deliberate attempt to weaken the war effort, and bring on the failure which they've prophesized all along. Petty politics indeed.
Agreed, the US democrats are exploiting an issue to destabilize the US role in Iraq. Whatever one's opinions are on the situations of the Iraq war and the Armenian genocide, this is the worst time to exploit an issue in such a way that will solve nothing & could create more bloodshed. Lord have mercy.

[Philothei]

Excuse me but I need clarification here.... why would it bring more blood shed? How? if America recognizes (and it is not going to happen I guarantee) the genocide then Turkey will back up... they are not a super power. How dare they threaten US? I think this is unacceptable that any thug can "blackmail" this country to the point to manipulate its policy....
US should bring up the Kurdish question. Ithought they stoped the establishment of a separate Kurdish nation because of the Turks too.

Turkey has been getting their way way too much examples: Constantinople, Smyrna, and Asia Minor Genocide, and let us not forget the Cyprus invasion with Kissinger.... and the genocide there. When is this country will recognize the injustices that Turkey has done against our contry? the atrocities?

The remaining Kurds and Armenians will not stop either and it is only right. Result: there is going to be blood shed anyways as long as Turks supress these nationals...

You cannot do petty politics when it comes to people's lives... The genocide of the Armenians was of magnitude to the Holocaust... The Turks killed the Armenians to do ethnic cleansing and occupy their land to take over the market. How come the US then recognized that Hitler was guilty of all this crimes? But Hitler was defeated that is why... while the Turkish Goven't is "alive" and well and still trying to "cover" all these truths in the global arena. We, in this country, as in any democratic country have a responsibility to listen to the voices of any "supressed" in this case majority..:( a whole nation lost....

Lukaris I did not mean it to you personally just I try to understand the logic.... Turkey every summer invades our air borders, our sea borders etc. they did the invasion of the Imnea few years ago and so on... and they always demand and demand ... this has to come to a hault at some point... Plus there is no religious freedom in that country... It beats me how people think this nation is democratic? It is not and its actions prove it.



God bless,
Philothei

[Lukaris]

Excuse me but I need clarification here.... why would it bring more blood shed? How? if America recognizes (and it is not going to happen I guarantee) the genocide then Turkey will back up... they are not a super power. How dare they threaten US? I think this is unacceptable that any thug can "blackmail" this country to the point to manipulate its policy....
US should bring up the Kurdish question. Ithought they stoped the establishment of a separate Kurdish nation because of the Turks too.

Turkey has been getting their way way too much examples: Constantinople, Smyrna, and Asia Minor Genocide, and let us not forget the Cyprus invasion with Kissinger.... and the genocide there. When is this country will recognize the injustices that Turkey has done against our contry? the atrocities?

The remaining Kurds and Armenians will not stop either and it is only right. Result: there is going to be blood shed anyways as long as Turks supress these nationals...

You cannot do petty politics when it comes to people's lives... The genocide of the Armenians was of magnitude to the Holocaust... The Turks killed the Armenians to do ethnic cleansing and occupy their land to take over the market. How come the US then recognized that Hitler was guilty of all this crimes? But Hitler was defeated that is why... while the Turkish Goven't is "alive" and well and still trying to "cover" all these truths in the global arena. We, in this country, as in any democratic country have a responsibility to listen to the voices of any "supressed" in this case majority..:( a whole nation lost....

Lukaris I did not mean it to you personally just I try to understand the logic.... Turkey every summer invades our air borders, our sea borders etc. they did the invasion of the Imnea few years ago and so on... and they always demand and demand ... this has to come to a hault at some point... Plus there is no religious freedom in that country... It beats me how people think this nation is democratic? It is not and its actions prove it.



God bless,
Philothei
Philothei, I totally agree with everything you mention in your post and am only noting that a tactical blunder could cause further strategic problems. I am not trying to minimize the Armenian genocide, be anti Kurdish, pro Turkish, or an advocate of the Iraq war. The situation seems that Turkey (a nation state) has an unstable border problem with a dangerous insurgency and may need to react for it own security concerns ( this does not seem to be a power grab like Cyprus in 1974). In no way do I overall trust a nation state that has shifted from extreme Islamism (ottoman empire) to anti Hellenic Kemalism but they are a nation of people with the right to self defense in legitimate cases. Just like many people have grievances with Israel, there are also times when they legitimately defend themselves. As far as the Iraq war, I have been opposed to the US presence since Desert Shield but will also oppose policies that could put American soldiers at risk and solve nothing for the sake of posturing (which I suspect from the US democrats). I hope this make sense and let us all pray for peace. May I add, I am also not advocating any silence re the Armenian genocide, in fact I do not want it to be sullied by partisan politics.

[Philothei]

Wars are unpredictable no matter how much you manipulate the conditions.... I am conserned about safety of our soldiers and would hate to see another blood bath.... But Turks are unpredictable anyways if they do not get what they think it is their fair share of the pie and they cannot manipulate our policy for ever... and as far as the Democrats using this as another "pull" that is straight out unethical... but this is the nature of politics. As Christians though I do believe that we should stood up for what is right.

Anyways our armies should be pulling out soon... so they will not be in danger.

the right to self defense in legitimate cases.


What legitamate cases? EU will not even think of accepting them if they do not recognize the human rights problems they have and "shape up"... I had no idea the had "legitamate cases" as this once being one...


Just like many people have grievances with Israel, there are also times when they legitimately defend themselves
I will not go there.... since I get the message when you call the "snipper" practice of Israel a "grievance".... and a legitamate one... but this is another thread and topic.

God bless,
Philothei

[Lukaris]

Wars are unpredictable no matter how much you manipulate the conditions.... I am conserned about safety of our soldiers and would hate to see another blood bath.... But Turks are unpredictable anyways if they do not get what they think it is their fair share of the pie and they cannot manipulate our policy for ever... and as far as the Democrats using this as another "pull" that is straight out unethical... but this is the nature of politics. As Christians though I do believe that we should stood up for what is right.

Anyways our armies should be pulling out soon... so they will not be in danger.

the right to self defense in legitimate cases.


What legitamate cases? EU will not even think of accepting them if they do not recognize the human rights problems they have and "shape up"... I had no idea the had "legitamate cases" as this once being one...


Just like many people have grievances with Israel, there are also times when they legitimately defend themselves
I will not go there.... since I get the message when you call the "snipper" practice of Israel a "grievance".... and a legitamate one... but this is another thread and topic.

God bless,
Philothei
Philothei, I do not want to drag this discussion any further but I really do not understand what you mean by the "snipper" practice of Israel. My mentioning of them was totally random and only pertained to the idea that any nation state may be correct in a given instance to defend itself. I was not trying to argue in any way or disagree with you regarding issues of Turkey, Greece, etc. God bless & forgive me if I caused any grief.

[Philothei]

No you did not and i understand about debating not my intension. Have a good day and I apoligize if I cause you any grief. No bad feelings here. I know that most of the people here know more the US politics than me at the same time I know the Greek-Turkish problem better (since I lived there to my early adulthood) than some of you here and we should see that this country (US) is well protected as well. i do not agree to the war but I sympathize and agree about the Islamic danger and I do believe that it has to be dealed with even if it means maintaining an "ally" who is a pain in the neck....lol..

As long as that Ally does not become a bigger problem (of what it already has been...:() for the rest of the "allies" ....


God bless,
Philothei

[Futuwwa]

Excuse me but I need clarification here.... why would it bring more blood shed? How? if America recognizes (and it is not going to happen I guarantee) the genocide then Turkey will back up... they are not a super power. How dare they threaten US? I think this is unacceptable that any thug can "blackmail" this country to the point to manipulate its policy....
US should bring up the Kurdish question. Ithought they stoped the establishment of a separate Kurdish nation because of the Turks too.

What Turkey can do to retaliate against the US is to cut off the main supply route of the US forces in Iraq, which at present goes through Turkey. Also, they've threatened to invade Iraqi Kurdistan, to "root out the Turkish Kurd insurgents seeking shelter there". Personally I'm quite sure invading Iraqi Kurdistan would be very fatal for Turkey, but that doesn't mean they won't do it.

[Philothei]

Agree.... Either way Turkey and any party involved will have trouble... with this issue. PKK was and will be a permanent headache for Turkey.

God bless,
Philothei

[Thekla]

a bit of history:

a chapter on the Armenian genocide from
The Splendid Blond Beast: Money, Law and Genocide in the Twentieth Century, by Christopher Simpson

(the book follows international response to genocide from WWI through the conclusion of the Nuremburg Trials)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Genocide?Young_Turks_SBB.html

you may need to handtype or paste the address into your address field

if interested, 8/20 chapters in this book are available here:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Genocide/Splendid_Blond_Beast.html


the second link seems to work :)

[Philothei]

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/images/template/todays/baslikkoyumavi.gifNews Diplomacy
Public diplomacy needed more than ever on brink of incursion Turkey’s preparations for a possible operation into northern Iraq accelerated yesterday as lawmakers voted in favor of a government motion authorizing an incursion to hit outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) bases in northern Iraq.
http://medya.todayszaman.com/todayszaman/2007/10/18/soldier.jpg Turkish soldiers on foot while talking with children heading to school during a routine patrol with an armoured vehicle near the southeastern town of Uludere.
(Özdem Sanberk - insert) However, if these moves are not accompanied by effective public diplomacy Turkey may pay a steep price for the operation, experts warn. Hours before Parliament approved the motion, Foreign Ministry diplomats briefed foreign ambassadors at a closed-door meeting on the objectives of the move. But more effort may be needed to address the rising concerns in the world. Global concerns over a Turkish cross-border operation in Iraq coupled with worries over the coming winter sent oil prices to record highs -- above $88 a barrel overnight. And the feeling of unease worldwide is not limited to the economic sphere; the governing bodies of the United States, Russia and the European Union have expressed strong concern over Turkish preparations for an operation in northern Iraq, something that could destabilize the most stable part of the wartorn country.
Experts say a cross-border operation could be the latest example of Turkish diplomacy failing to justify its actions and thus condemning Ankara to international political isolation once more. Turkey is only slowly recovering from isolation on the Cyprus issue after a shift in state policy to support reunification of the island -- something which in turn revealed to the world’s surprise that the Greek Cypriots were not after unification at all -- it has also largely failed to counter efforts by the Armenian diaspora to win international recognition for an alleged genocide by Ottoman Turks during World War I.
Former and current diplomats from the Turkish Foreign Ministry as well as experts and foreign media pinpoint the problems of Turkey in defending its policies and creating supportive world opinion as stemming from lack of organizational structures, limitations to freedom of expression and lack of an established think tank tradition. History shows that Turkey is left alone and alienated on issues like its military intervention on Cyprus, resolutions related to Armenian genocide claims and the cross-border operation in northern Iraq.
Ambassador Özdem Sanberk, former undersecretary for the Foreign Ministry, explains: “If there is a cross-border operation, the headlines in the foreign media will read ‘Turkey attacks Iraq’ because they don’t know that the outlawed PKK is getting logistical support from northern Iraq and killing people here. We need organizations that can make foreign media understand and see the personal stories of those people who have been killed,” Sanberk says.
Turkish Foreign Ministry officials agree with Sanberk’s statement. “We don’t have a campaign before the foreign media to say what is going on in relation to the terrorist attacks in Turkey. But we continue our efforts before American and Iraqi authorities,” says a senior Turkish diplomat.
But the foreign media is holding Turkey responsible for increasing oil prices. News stories regarding the subject suggest that Turkish intentions for a cross-border operation have led to the increase in oil prices. The comments about the cross-border operation also claim that the target of Turkey in such an operation is the Kurdistan regional administration. However Turkish government spokesman State Minister Cemil Çiçek underlined that the move targets only the PKK.
Sanberk says that to have only one government spokesman is insufficient. He stressed that all the ministries should have spokesmen that are reachable by foreign media at anytime. “The stories are developing very fast. If Turkish opinion is not given right on time, it is not included in the stories,” he says, adding that Turkey does not have the chance to present its position in an orderly way to the world public.
Neither today nor yesterday
Sanberk thinks, like many others, that “Turkey is unable to express its concerns either today or yesterday.” He points out that despite many problems Turkey faces in the international arena, public diplomacy was not mentioned in the latest government program and there are only a few efforts on the subject.
Sanberk points out that one of the main reasons for weak public diplomacy is lack of freedom of expression. Soli Özel from Bilgi University and also a partner in a public relations company and Sedat Laçiner from the International Strategic Research Organization (ISRO/ USAK) both agree with Sanberk.
“A country that has restrictions on freedom of expression is poised to have to take a defensive position all the time and lose in public diplomacy,” Sanberk says. According to him, one of the main tools of public diplomacy is think tanks. In fact foreign policy arguments emerge in think tanks and over time become government policy, according to Sanberk. Think tanks are also important to explain the position of a country. But in a country where there are restrictions on freedom of expression it is difficult to form think tank organizations.
Soli Özel underlines that a country that wants to express its ideas should first of all order its internal matters. “If a country is saying that Armenian genocide claims are false accusations but if in the same week its courts are convicting a Turkish-Armenian journalist, obviously there is a problem here,” Özel says. He mentions that think tanks are an important part of public diplomacy, but only if they are perceived by the state as at least supporting actors, not mere figureheads.
Laçiner says that the countries who are successful in public diplomacy are the ones who have better human rights records. He agrees that Turkey lacks the infrastructure which would pave the way to diversify its actors in diplomacy.
Sanberk says that the tradition of Turkish diplomacy is very strong, classical and successful, but it is used to elaborate on issues behind closed doors. “In the past the actors of diplomacy were only diplomats and government members. But that has changed now; the media and world public opinion became more effective actors in diplomacy. Public diplomacy also includes the cultural dimension like literature and art,” he says. The structure of Turkish diplomacy does not encourage diplomats to make contact with the foreign media, Sanberk adds.
According to Özel, the people responsible for expressing Turkey’s ideas do not have enough connections. Yusuf Al Sharif, the representative of Al Jazeera in Turkey, shares a similar view and says that Turkish politicians are not aware of the importance of the world media either. According to Sharif, Turks do not have a culture of trying to express themselves -- even in the Turkish diaspora.
Sanberk and Laçiner have the same view. They both complain that despite the huge potential of the Turkish diaspora, there is no active Turkish lobbying structure abroad. To realize the importance of public diplomacy and to establish the necessary mechanisms to form effective organizations will take at least two decades, says Sanberk. “But if we don’t start now we will lose many more years.”



http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=124929

[Thekla]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/washington/26cong.html

not surprising

[Philothei]

bump

[Yeznik]

Agreed, the US democrats are exploiting an issue to destabilize the US role in Iraq. Whatever one's opinions are on the situations of the Iraq war and the Armenian genocide, this is the worst time to exploit an issue in such a way that will solve nothing & could create more bloodshed. Lord have mercy.

Sure, why not let other countries dictate American politics instead of Americans. Sound like a great idea!

[Philothei]

Sure, why not let other countries dictate American politics instead of Americans. Sound like a great idea!
Plus the "armenian genocide" was always pushed away as an issue that was presented at a "wrong time"....

not the first time.


God bless,
Philothei

[Yeznik]

Plus the "armenian genocide" was always pushed away as an issue that was presented at a "wrong time"....

not the first time.


God bless,
Philothei


In a case like this I recommend that the USA learn from the Russian (orthodox) nation since it was the first country, if I am not mistaken, to recognize the Genocide.

[Lukaris]

Sure, why not let other countries dictate American politics instead of Americans. Sound like a great idea!
Actually most allegedly "American" elected officials are traitors who bid allegience to multinational corporations, communist China, & the Saudi royal family. Many of these same politicians supported the seizure of Kosovo from Serbia so pardon my distrust of them. The fact that the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh successfully defended themselves without US involvement (as far as i know) should indicate that almost any American political posturing in world affairs should be viewed with suspicion. BTW, I mean no criticism.

[Yeznik]

Actually most allegedly "American" elected officials are traitors who bid allegience to multinational corporations, communist China, & the Saudi royal family. Many of these same politicians supported the seizure of Kosovo from Serbia so pardon my distrust of them. The fact that the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh successfully defended themselves without US involvement (as far as i know) should indicate that almost any American political posturing in world affairs should be viewed with suspicion. BTW, I mean no criticism.

Well…….that is why the US is ran on the Capitalist system, if there wasn’t any capital to be gained by the US in Kosovo then, the US wouldn’t support it. Personally, I support the Serbs, and that’s not only because they the ethnic cousins to the Armenians, because historically, the land belongs to the Serbs. Albanians are basically Turkified Slav’s who accepted Islam when the Turk took over that area.

[Philothei]

Well…….that is why the US is ran on the Capitalist system, if there wasn’t any capital to be gained by the US in Kosovo then, the US wouldn’t support it. Personally, I support the Serbs, and that’s not only because they the ethnic cousins to the Armenians, because historically, the land belongs to the Serbs. Albanians are basically Turkified Slav’s who accepted Islam when the Turk took over that area.
completely true that is the reason we have so many problems with Albanians in that region... and FYROM too... :(.

This is a great site of the Armenian genocide and all genocide in general under the Ottoman rule.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/encyclopedia/ottoman.htm

God bless,
Philothei

[Yeznik]

Mel Gibson offered role to play in Genocide movie.

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=24202

[Philothei]

wow :) that would be wonderful ... He would be perfect for any role. Bravo to the Armenians who had the idea of making a movie about the Genocide.

I will defenately go to see it... It would speak volumes.

God bless,
Philothei

[Ioan cel Nou]

Well…….that is why the US is ran on the Capitalist system, if there wasn’t any capital to be gained by the US in Kosovo then, the US wouldn’t support it. Personally, I support the Serbs, and that’s not only because they the ethnic cousins to the Armenians, because historically, the land belongs to the Serbs. Albanians are basically Turkified Slav’s who accepted Islam when the Turk took over that area.
The Albanians aren't Slavs. They've certainly been in Europe longer than that. They claim to be the descendants of the Illyrians, though there's very good evidence to doubt that, but the only other language with related terms to Albanian is Romanian - and those always in terms pre-dating the Roman conquest of Dacia. In all likelihood the Albanians are non-Latinised Dacians who were pushed south during the various invasions of the 4th and 5th centuries.

James

[Philothei]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNAW8g8USvQ&feature=related


I had to post this sad..... video of the atrocities by the Islamic Turks to the Greeks of Asia Minor....

Pictures speak a thousand words and these pics speak a ....trillion words....
Memory eternal,

Philothei

[Philothei]

bump

[Futuwwa]

I believe "Nationalist Turks" is the correct word.

[EmperorConstantine]

Petty politics and war are what happens when 1) we forget World History and 2) pick sides before researching the reasons, actions, motives and the why behind decisions.

Problems in Armenia, Chechnya, Kosovo and Palestine are a few example of why lobbying the government is bad. It makes politicians blind and silences whatever voice of reason exists.

[Philothei]

I believe "Nationalist Turks" is the correct word.
Actions speak for themselves we do not need interpreters of the facts..... Islamic nationalists or not .... it is hardly a point here and a very weak indeed....

[Futuwwa]

Actions speak for themselves we do not need interpreters of the facts..... Islamic nationalists or not .... it is hardly a point here and a very weak indeed....

I think it is. It doesn't change what happened, obviously. But you shouldn't look for excuses to emnity, let's remember that Turkish Nationalism has nothing to do with Islam.

[Philothei]

I think it is. It doesn't change what happened, obviously. But you shouldn't look for excuses to emnity, let's remember that Turkish Nationalism has nothing to do with Islam.
Oh yeah? Are we now thry to pass the ball? Islam gave those Nationalists their "freedom" to kill and destroy with the most brutality.... not their nationalism... it was the 'blessings' of Mohamad to the ones who would kill more and 'witness' more in his name... that was the motivation....

[Futuwwa]

Your prejudices make me too sad to want to keep arguing. But I'll just ask, don't you have any faith in coexistence?

[Philothei]

oh... what a shame... my prejudisisms that are based on the fact that muslims slaughtered millions of Christians... too bad... If mulsims want to "come clean" why they do not get rid of their Jihad concept of their faith? then no one would look upon them suspiciously.... How can one not be a prejudist.. when the other is threatening him with his sword??? (yourself included...) that seems to me like self-defense... if you want to call it whatever ...go ahead... it is still the reality.

Co-existance??? Yes it has been taking place all these centuries... where do you live in Mars?

Don't you think we have enough "majorities" living with us in the Balkans and everywhere in Europe??

[Yeznik]

I think it is. It doesn't change what happened, obviously. But you shouldn't look for excuses to emnity, let's remember that Turkish Nationalism has nothing to do with Islam.

Thats kind of hard to believe since the Turkish flag has the crescent moon and star.

[Futuwwa]

Thats kind of hard to believe since the Turkish flag has the crescent moon and star.

The star and crescent are a Turkish imperial symbol that later on became the symbol of Islam, not the other way around.

[Futuwwa]

oh... what a shame... my prejudisisms that are based on the fact that muslims slaughtered millions of Christians... too bad... If mulsims want to "come clean" why they do not get rid of their Jihad concept of their faith? then no one would look upon them suspiciously.... How can one not be a prejudist.. when the other is threatening him with his sword??? (yourself included...) that seems to me like self-defense... if you want to call it whatever ...go ahead... it is still the reality.

And Christians have slaughtered millions of Muslims. But I don't hold that against Christianity, nor do I use it as an excuse to perpetuate the hatred. If you insist on believing the worst about people, and acting accordingly, your prejudices will turn into self-fulfilling prophecies.

Co-existance??? Yes it has been taking place all these centuries... where do you live in Mars?

I did not get you. Was this an attempt at sarcasm?

[Lukaris]

Perhaps the ultimate question will a "secular" Turkey actually comply with EU standards in tolerating Christian communities (especially through immigration) to the slightest degree in contrast to EU communities that actually promote anythingism from all 4 corners of the earth?

[Yeznik]

The star and crescent are a Turkish imperial symbol that later on became the symbol of Islam, not the other way around.

Futuwwa are you a Turk?

[Futuwwa]

No.

[Philothei]

Are you a "philoturk" then?

[Futuwwa]

No.

[Philothei]

Are you a Turk by adoption?

[Futuwwa]

No.

[Khaleas]

Some crazy Finn who has had too much of illegally imported Russian 'alcohol'... then ran into Mujahed bin Risto Faisal and was never the same since (ahem, 'conversion')??

[Thekla]

http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/HortonBook.htm

an account of the extermination of the Christian populations; including the Armenians and the Greeks of Asia Minor.

authored by George Horton
Consul and Consul-General of the United States of America, serving in the Near-East (and eyewitness to the Smyrna massacre)

[Thekla]

my eyes are bleary ^_^ I've been up all night reading the above book.
It is a harrowing and essential read. Close to the end of the book, I found this solace, a description which relates the light of Christ:

The conduct of the Greeks toward the thousands of Turks residing in Greece, while the ferocious massacres were going on, and while Smyrna was being burned and refugees, wounded, outraged and ruined, were pouring into every port of Hellas, was one of the most inspiring and beautiful chapters in all that country’s history. There were no reprisals. The Turks living in Greece were in no wise molested, nor did any storm of hatred or revenge burst upon their heads. This is a great and beautiful victory that, in its own way, rises to the level of Marathon and Salamis.

One naturally asks what other Christian nation could have done any better? In fact, the whole conduct of Greece, during and after the persecution of the Christians in Turkey, has been most admirable, as witness also its treatment of the Turkish prisoners of war, and its efforts for the thousands of refugees that have been thrown upon its soil. I know of what I am speaking, for I was in Greece and saw with my own eyes. No one, I think, will have the courage to dispute these facts.

May His light so shine forth in us

[Thekla]

yup, lousy timing for the Armenian Genocide bill



http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=93508



prefaced, of course, by Microsoft's eradication of the Armenian Genocide in its bundled Encyclopedia
can anyone say, "manipulation" ?

[Futuwwa]

Some crazy Finn who has had too much of illegally imported Russian 'alcohol'... then ran into Mujahed bin Risto Faisal and was never the same since (ahem, 'conversion')??

No, nothing as dramatic as that :D

[Thekla]

Documentary on the Armenian Genocide:

the video will "not embed", so here is the link to the poster's library


http://www.youtube.com/user/sakobb

[Philothei]

bump