Our newest Hip Hop Bishop ??

[gtsecc]

Has TEC gone round the bend?


Hip Hop Schoolhouse
Saturday, October 13, 2007 - Sunday, October 14, 2007
Location: St. Paul's Cathedral, Boston MA
All are welcome at St. Paul's Cathedral in Boston, Massachusetts on October 13 at 5:30 p.m. for the HipHopEMass 'Big Bean' Celebration with the newest Hip Hop Bishop, 'Great Momma' Gayle Harris. On October 14, 10 a.m. - 3 p.m., the Cathedral will then host HipHopEMass Schoolhouse where the elements of Hip Hop, theology of Hip Hop, Hip Hop liturgy and evangelization will be introduced.

[Colabomb]

Its much better than paganism.

[gtsecc]

Its much better than paganism.
Yes, but pagans don't claim to be the Church.

[Colabomb]

Yes, but pagans don't claim to be the Church.

Many do.

[Polycarp1]

Link? Some clue as to what's going on here?

[Secundulus]

Psalm 23 as adapted by Ryan Kearse
The Lord is all that, I need for nothing.
He allows me to chill.
He keeps me from being heated
and allows me to breathe easy.
He guides my life so that
I can represent and give
shouts out in his Name.
And even though I walk through
the Hood of death,
I don't back down
for you have my back.
The fact that you have me covered
allows me to chill.
He provides me with back-up
in front of my player-haters
and I know that I am a baller
and life will be phat.
I fall back in the Lord's crib
for the rest of my life.

[Aymn27]

Link? Some clue as to what's going on here?
It's called jumping the shark - when the "show" has run out of substance - Fonzi has to "jump the shark" to try to bump the ratings....

[Diane_Windsor]

How proud you must be ^_^

































:priest: :P

[Colabomb]

Psalm 23 as adapted by Ryan Kearse
The Lord is all that, I need for nothing.
He allows me to chill.
He keeps me from being heated
and allows me to breathe easy.
He guides my life so that
I can represent and give
shouts out in his Name.
And even though I walk through
the Hood of death,
I don't back down
for you have my back.
The fact that you have me covered
allows me to chill.
He provides me with back-up
in front of my player-haters
and I know that I am a baller
and life will be phat.
I fall back in the Lord's crib
for the rest of my life.

ROFFLE

Ha, that was corny to me and I am not a part of the hip hop culture. Do they honestly believe this is going to reach the average gangbanger or wannanbe? That is hilarious.

[ChaliceThunder]

Well, truth be told. There was a hip hop eucharist at the Episcopal Youth Event in 2005, and it was very well received by over 1,000 teens. (When I say 'received' I mean that they enjoyed being a part of the experience and it brought many to a deeper place with God and the church.)

Let us not forget that much of the church railed against Bach as being too busy...so many notes as to make the ears cease listening.

If it follows the shape of our received liturgy, and touches people's hearts, I don't understand what all the yammering is about.

[Colabomb]

Well, truth be told. There was a hip hop eucharist at the Episcopal Youth Event in 2005, and it was very well received by over 1,000 teens. (When I say 'received' I mean that they enjoyed being a part of the experience and it brought many to a deeper place with God and the church.)

Let us not forget that much of the church railed against Bach as being too busy...so many notes as to make the ears cease listening.

If it follows the shape of our received liturgy, and touches people's hearts, I don't understand what all the yammering is about.

I don't think its necessarily immoral. I am not of the persuasion that our liturgy is divine. It is frankly man made.

My issue with it is I think it is ineffective, and seems to cheapen both Godly things and the Culture they are trying to reach.

I am a Metal fan (Metallica, Zao, Demon Hunter, etc.). But if I walked into a church where the pastor was headbanging and putting up the metal fingers, I'd turn around.

I listen to a great amount of alternative music (in the style of Nirvana, Red Hot chili Peppers and Stavesacre). But if I walked into a church where the pastor was talking in 15 year old slang and wearing ripped jeans with filthy greasy hair in an attempt to reach me, I'd comment that they are going the wrong way about things.

Christ himself is ultimately relevant. We don't need to dress him up to make him so.

[higgs2]

:cry: Makes the U2charist seem old fashioned. We're still trying to get that going, by the time we're ready to tackle Hip Hop Mass something else will have come along :cry:

The good news is that all ages like Bono :thumbsup:

[ChaliceThunder]

I don't think its necessarily immoral. I am not of the persuasion that our liturgy is divine. It is frankly man made.

My issue with it is I think it is ineffective, and seems to cheapen both Godly things and the Culture they are trying to reach.

I am a Metal fan (Metallica, Zao, Demon Hunter, etc.). But if I walked into a church where the pastor was headbanging and putting up the metal fingers, I'd turn around.

I listen to a great amount of alternative music (in the style of Nirvana, Red Hot chili Peppers and Stavesacre). But if I walked into a church where the pastor was talking in 15 year old slang and wearing ripped jeans with filthy greasy hair in an attempt to reach me, I'd comment that they are going the wrong way about things.

Christ himself is ultimately relevant. We don't need to dress him up to make him so.
I understand your feelings. But I am not willing to say that these liturgies aren't effective tools of evangelism.

How many of us had animal blessings this past week? I would bet a whole bunch of us did - and I will bet many of our parishes had people come that would not have come otherwise. It's a part of outreach.

And perhaps Hip Hop Eucharist is not your (or my!) cup of tea. Well, according to the advertising, it's not the primary Sunday eucharist (although I don't see any reason why it might not be so in a community that is thoroughly steeped in Hip Hop tradition). But it's calling to people who might not otherwise hear about Jesus from our Church.

In reference to my earlier comment about Bach:
When would it have been time to say, "OK, no more 'modern' music." ???

After Gregorian Chant had been codified?
After Palestrina?
After Tallis?
After Bach?
After Stainer?
After Vaughan Williams?
After Howells?
After Duke Ellington?

Whose sacred music are we willing to cut out?

I really think the music of the age is quite relevant when preaching the gospel. And music of the ages gone by appear to prove my theory - otherwise those beloved Anglican Choral chestnuts would be long gone. But they are not - the tradition thrives, and grows right up to this very minute and beyond! :wave:

[Colabomb]

I understand your feelings. But I am not willing to say that these liturgies aren't effective tools of evangelism.

How many of us had animal blessings this past week? I would bet a whole bunch of us did - and I will bet many of our parishes had people come that would not have come otherwise. It's a part of outreach.

And perhaps Hip Hop Eucharist is not your (or my!) cup of tea. Well, according to the advertising, it's not the primary Sunday eucharist (although I don't see any reason why it might not be so in a community that is thoroughly steeped in Hip Hop tradition). But it's calling to people who might not otherwise hear about Jesus from our Church.

In reference to my earlier comment about Bach:
When would it have been time to say, "OK, no more 'modern' music." ???

After Gregorian Chant had been codified?
After Palestrina?
After Tallis?
After Bach?
After Stainer?
After Vaughan Williams?
After Howells?
After Duke Ellington?

Whose sacred music are we willing to cut out?

I really think the music of the age is quite relevant when preaching the gospel. And music of the ages gone by appear to prove my theory - otherwise those beloved Anglican Choral chestnuts would be long gone. But they are not - the tradition thrives, and grows right up to this very minute and beyond! :wave:

Brother, I have nothing against modern Music as my previous post should attest to.

It has to do with cheapening the experience.

For example, you are homosexual and very proud of it. Sexuality is a major part of our identity as human beings.

What if you walked into a church that was attempting to reach out to the gay community, and was met with multiple gay stereotypes and tired cliches, such as lisping, the color pink and tight leather?

Wouldn't that be insulting, wouldn't you feel it was condescending? I'd imagine it would be and I would imagine those in the hip hop community would feel the same way. They walk into a church where the Lord's Prayer is structured in old slang. Into a church that is trying to win you over with an empty shallow facade of what your life as part of a particular community is all about.

I feel the whole thing is cheap and would turn most off.

[ChaliceThunder]

Brother, I have nothing against modern Music as my previous post should attest to.

It has to do with cheapening the experience.

For example, you are homosexual and very proud of it. Sexuality is a major part of our identity as human beings.

What if you walked into a church that was attempting to reach out to the gay community, and was met with multiple gay stereotypes and tired cliches, such as lisping, the color pink and tight leather?

Wouldn't that be insulting, wouldn't you feel it was condescending? I'd imagine it would be and I would imagine those in the hip hop community would feel the same way. They walk into a church where the Lord's Prayer is structured in old slang. Into a church that is trying to win you over with an empty shallow facade of what your life as part of a particular community is all about.

I feel the whole thing is cheap and would turn most off.
I appreciate your analogy, brother Cola ~ but I am not sure it fits.

As I understand it, the Hip Hop Eucharists are not cliche, condescending, or a shallow facade. They are witnessing to the resurrected power of our Lord Jesus. Again, perhaps not to our taste - but in the end, our taste really counts for nothing, as much as we would like them to ;)

I know you said it would turn you off. But please do recognize that it DID turn a whole bunch of people on at the 2005 EYE. And I have heard of several others that have drawn really great crowds. And when people come, and a life-giving message is preached, lives can be transformed.

As well all know, this goes on Sunday to Sunday in your parish and mine. I think the church is just extending the boundaries of possibility. :wave:

[Colabomb]

I appreciate your analogy, brother Cola ~ but I am not sure it fits.

As I understand it, the Hip Hop Eucharists are not cliche, condescending, or a shallow facade. They are witnessing to the resurrected power of our Lord Jesus. Again, perhaps not to our taste - but in the end, our taste really counts for nothing, as much as we would like them to ;)

I know you said it would turn you off. But please do recognize that it DID turn a whole bunch of people on at the 2005 EYE. And I have heard of several others that have drawn really great crowds. And when people come, and a life-giving message is preached, lives can be transformed.

As well all know, this goes on Sunday to Sunday in your parish and mine. I think the church is just extending the boundaries of possibility. :wave:

I guess at this time brother, we can respectfully disagree on this. I guess my feeling on this comes from years of youth groups with corny rock music, cheesy drama acts and videos on TBN from Billy Baldwin.... who looks like he has no business being on a skateboard :P

God Bless.

[PaladinValer]

I think the whole thing is rediculous really. The majority of that culture is not something people should be enthralled with.

Will Smith himself stopped rapping for a while because of it, let's remember.

On the other hand, he did return, and I appreciate the fact that his poetry is safe and clean.

With that, so long as these services speak out against the pervasive majority of hip hop and that they are a Rite III service, I agree with Chalice's well-reasoned logic.

[ChaliceThunder]

I guess at this time brother, we can respectfully disagree on this. I guess my feeling on this comes from years of youth groups with corny rock music, cheesy drama acts and videos on TBN from Billy Baldwin.... who looks like he has no business being on a skateboard :P

God Bless.
I'm ok with disagreement, Cola.

I would certainly draw the line with Billy Baldwin on a skateboard. That happened in an ANGLICAN church? Couldn't they have gotten an authentic sk8r?

[Colabomb]

I'm ok with disagreement, Cola.

I would certainly draw the line with Billy Baldwin on a skateboard. That happened in an ANGLICAN church? Couldn't they have gotten an authentic sk8r?

Haha, no Chalice. I grew up in Fundementalism and Evangelical Protestantism.

I was in my mid to late teens when I found the Anglican Tradition lol.

I find my background in Fundementalism and Evangelicalism give me a perspective that Cradle Anglicans don't have :P

[No Swansong]

It's a ridiculous fad and that is the only reason there is any response to it at all, instead of an effort to reach others I see it as a grasp at straws.

[ChaliceThunder]

Haha, no Chalice. I grew up in Fundementalism and Evangelical Protestantism.

I was in my mid to late teens when I found the Anglican Tradition lol.

I find my background in Fundementalism and Evangelicalism give me a perspective that Cradle Anglicans don't have :P

And thanks be to God for that perspective, bro. :thumbsup:

Never lose that - cuz we need it!

(especially when some fool comes around trying to push Billy Baldwin into a solemn skateboard procession + Litany!!!)

^_^

[karen freeinchristman]

How many of us had animal blessings this past week?
Well, we haven't had any animal blessings at church, but the other morning my daughter did ask me casually about the specifics of baptism, to which I said something about it requiring water and the words 'I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit', and later she came and told me she baptised our cat. :sorry:

[norbie]

Well, we haven't had any animal blessings at church, but the other morning my daughter did ask me casually about the specifics of baptism, to which I said something about it requiring water and the words 'I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit', and later she came and told me she baptised our cat. :sorry:
So you have a holy cat in the house? Congratulation! LOL

[ChaliceThunder]

Well, we haven't had any animal blessings at church, but the other morning my daughter did ask me casually about the specifics of baptism, to which I said something about it requiring water and the words 'I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit', and later she came and told me she baptised our cat. :sorry:
Thanks for the morning smile!

I bet kitty was none too pleased.
Had she gone through CATechism?

(sorry...^_^)

[karen freeinchristman]

Had she gone through CATechism?

:D

[higgs2]

I don't understand the necessity of bringing sexuality into this discussion.

[gtsecc]

The suggestion that there is a Hip Hop Theology is what is bothersome.

[higgs2]

I wonder what they mean by that?

[Colabomb]

I don't understand the necessity of bringing sexuality into this discussion.

I was using it as an example, of being in a community.

I just picked something I knew was important to chalice and went with it.

If he was insulted he can let me know. If he isn't, why do you care?

[higgs2]

I was using it as an example, of being in a community.

I just picked something I knew was important to chalice and went with it.

If he was insulted he can let me know. If he isn't, why do you care?

I found it offensive, that is why I care. I don't find it analagous to "liking hip hop music" and it seemed gratuitous. :) And we are in community, not in private chat, so I thought it would be okay if I joined the conversation.

[ChaliceThunder]

The suggestion that there is a Hip Hop Theology is what is bothersome.
I see a subtlety here - maybe I am wrong.

The ad says "the theology of Hip Hop" and not "Hip Hop theology."

I would take the two to mean 2 very different things.

The first one would apparently delve into:
a) how God creates and works through Hip Hop.
b) how we relate to God through Hip Hop

The second, your term, feels to me like a category of theology, as in "Systematic Theology." I also got the impression from your term that it was somewhat negative, not unlike "Pop Psychology."

Forgive me if I have perceived this wrongly. I think the whole idea of exploring the theology of Hip Hop (if there is any, or if there is the potential for it) is fascinating, and has potential for evangelism and outreach.

[Colabomb]

I found it offensive, that is why I care. I don't find it analagous to "liking hip hop music" and it seemed gratuitous. :) And we are in community, not in private chat, so I thought it would be okay if I joined the conversation.

Hip Hop may be music, but there is no doubt that they are speaking to a community, not a style of music. To people who live a certain lifestyle.

The Idea is to reach out a specific COMMUNITY. Not to people who like a certain type of music.

And if it offended you I am sorry that is the case, but I was speaking to a man that I believe myself to be in good standing with, and I used an analogy I thought would fit.

I can't please everyone, nor do I try.

I was addressing the idea of community, not the idea of sexuality.

If I have done something to offend YOU, please let me know about it. But if you feel I offended someone else, please let us work that out among ourselves. We are both adults, and I feel we get along pretty well without moderation.

[ChaliceThunder]

Everything's cool :cool:

[higgs2]

Well, I thought the reference to the EYE was not so much reaching out to a community but rather providing an exciting and meaningful worship experience. You don't need to try to please everyone, all I did was ask why you mentioned sexuality, and you answered that.

[gtsecc]

There may be a theology of Hip Hop, but if it is different than what we have been doing for 2,000 years, it is hard to then claim it is Christian, even if we really want it to be, or it makes more folks comfortable.

[Colabomb]

(issue already addressed)

[ChaliceThunder]

There may be a theology of Hip Hop, but if it is different than what we have been doing for 2,000 years, it is hard to then claim it is Christian, even if we really want it to be, or it makes more folks comfortable.
But is our theology not constantly developing?

I cannot seriously believe it's all done.

[ChaliceThunder]

As an add-on to my previous post:

"The Lord has yet more light and truth to break forth from his word."

refrain, Hymnal 1982 #629

[gtsecc]

But is our theology not constantly developing?

I cannot seriously believe it's all done.
I believe it is not all done - I would like to see some progressive things happen. My experience with years of work in the inner city is that Hip Hop is antithetical to the Christian faith.

[ChaliceThunder]

I believe it is not all done - I would like to see some progressive things happen. My experience with years of work in the inner city is that Hip Hop is antithetical to the Christian faith.
Maybe it is.

But maybe some good people will be able to bring something redemptive out of it.

I hardly think Bp. Gayle Harris is going to creat Hip Hop Heresy.

Just a thought :wave:

[Aymn27]

Maybe it is.

But maybe some good people will be able to bring something redemptive out of it.

I hardly think Bp. Gayle Harris is going to creat Hip Hop Heresy.

Just a thought :wave:
It is my opinion that she is already a heretic....hip hop or not...


;) (btw - this is not a REAL flame but a joke in reference to the discussion going on regarding what constitues a flame and intent, etc - it is merely meant to lighten the subject and NOT to truly call Ms. Harris a heretic - please take it with a grain of salt and a chuckle :) ).

[ChaliceThunder]

It is my opinion that she is already a heretic....hip hop or not...


;) (btw - this is not a REAL flame but a joke in reference to the discussion going on regarding what constitues a flame and intent, etc - it is merely meant to lighten the subject and NOT to truly call Ms. Harris a heretic - please take it with a grain of salt and a chuckle :) ).
chuckling ^_^

[Colabomb]

It is my opinion that she is already a heretic....hip hop or not...


;) (btw - this is not a REAL flame but a joke in reference to the discussion going on regarding what constitues a flame and intent, etc - it is merely meant to lighten the subject and NOT to truly call Ms. Harris a heretic - please take it with a grain of salt and a chuckle :) ).

It would have been funnier if you had italicized the word OPINION.

[Aymn27]

It would have been funnier if you had italicized the word OPINION.
Yea..I was going to go back and underline it..but I got busy at work - oh well - not that funny anyway :P

[karen freeinchristman]

Well, I thought it was kind of funny. I've named the newest Alehouse (up in the stickies) after this 'opinion' issue. ^_^

[No Swansong]

chuckling ^_^
It was pretty funny! Oh man I hate it when I have to report Aaron. It is my opinion that he is such a superficial pest and we all know he isn't Anglican any way.