the only effective answer to Islamic aggression

[Kas]

A real calling to dicuss...


A real calling to discuss...to pray about...and to act upon...the challenges we face as I see it...


The Church must accept that the Liberal Enlightenment is not a Christian movement, Liberalism is not the answer...but the Christ is, defacto, that means Christianity is the answer to our worlds problems!

The Church must accept that if it is to survive then their is a utility to force, and not absolute pacifism!

The church must accept, that it is in an 'eternal' conflict with Islam; this conflict must engage us at every level, physically, spiritually and mentally, until we have defeated and overcome the oppressor of the saints, and murderer of the brethren.

The church must, WAKE UP! If we do not overcome our self imposed mental inhibitions, which are not rooted in the Christ then we will assuredly defeat ourselves and be overcome by those who seek to do us harm...

All around the world, the Islamic faith is reviving, and in so doing it is waging a war against the Holy Church,

All around the Christian world, Christian are being misguided about what they can do by an over spiritualised and weak understanding of what it is to be a Christian...misguided and devided we are being thrown back and our holy places destroyed...our people persecuted...

The church must accept that the two challenges that face us; are to throw of the yoke of the Liberal Anti Christian Enlightenment...free our minds...and engage in the conflict with the Liberal and Islamic worlds...

The church must realise, that its great victories of the past were not wrought by sitting on ones hands consoling its self with spiritual platitudes about how GOD is gonna do something, or how he is in control...but by haveing the faith to realise that GOD calls us to be the solution to the tests He has presented us with, to act on our faith resolutely to advance it.

The church will only be taken seriously when it takes its self seriously.

I therefore offer this calling to all who have the heart to take it:

Deffend the honour of Christ, deffend the Brethren...

deffend them...FOR GOD, THE KINGDOM AND THE SAINTS...

CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE....


(anewcrusade@hotmail.co.uk)

[amadeus2]

God requires no helping hand. If He chooses to use you or me in a situation He will let us know.

Every one of the supposedly Christian Crusades in history to 'save' the 'holy land' (natural Israel) failed miserably in their stated purposes, because God was not consulted as to whether it was His will to initiate them.

What is needed by God's people is for them to submit to His will and first they must check with Him to know just exactly what that is.

You are correct that prayer is needed, but actions beyond that against particular groups in this country or other countries without a clear 'go ahead' from God are actions to move out ahead of Him and away from Him. It is not our battle, but God's

The only thing we need to do is to stay on His side:

"...If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

A real calling to dicuss...


A real calling to discuss...to pray about...and to act upon...the challenges we face as I see it...


The Church must accept that the Liberal Enlightenment is not a Christian movement, Liberalism is not the answer...but the Christ is, defacto, that means Christianity is the answer to our worlds problems!

The Church must accept that if it is to survive then their is a utility to force, and not absolute pacifism!

The church must accept, that it is in an 'eternal' conflict with Islam; this conflict must engage us at every level, physically, spiritually and mentally, until we have defeated and overcome the oppressor of the saints, and murderer of the brethren.

The church must, WAKE UP! If we do not overcome our self imposed mental inhibitions, which are not rooted in the Christ then we will assuredly defeat ourselves and be overcome by those who seek to do us harm...

All around the world, the Islamic faith is reviving, and in so doing it is waging a war against the Holy Church,

All around the Christian world, Christian are being misguided about what they can do by an over spiritualised and weak understanding of what it is to be a Christian...misguided and devided we are being thrown back and our holy places destroyed...our people persecuted...

The church must accept that the two challenges that face us; are to throw of the yoke of the Liberal Anti Christian Enlightenment...free our minds...and engage in the conflict with the Liberal and Islamic worlds...

The church must realise, that its great victories of the past were not wrought by sitting on ones hands consoling its self with spiritual platitudes about how GOD is gonna do something, or how he is in control...but by haveing the faith to realise that GOD calls us to be the solution to the tests He has presented us with, to act on our faith resolutely to advance it.

The church will only be taken seriously when it takes its self seriously.

I therefore offer this calling to all who have the heart to take it:

Deffend the honour of Christ, deffend the Brethren...

deffend them...FOR GOD, THE KINGDOM AND THE SAINTS...

CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE....

anewcrusade@hotmail.co.uk

[tamtam92]

Indeed, i heard there were more and more christians in islamic countries. The fact is, islam would rather be gaining ground in western countries.

But Christ never told us to use violence or take arms, except the spiritual ones. If the church would wake up and set up to work, that is spread the Gospel and preach the Word of God, then it would be a true crusade, pleasing to the eyes of our God!

[SimilSimon]

A real calling to dicuss...


A real calling to discuss...to pray about...and to act upon...the challenges we face as I see it...


The Church must accept that the Liberal Enlightenment is not a Christian movement, Liberalism is not the answer...but the Christ is, defacto, that means Christianity is the answer to our worlds problems!

The Church must accept that if it is to survive then their is a utility to force, and not absolute pacifism!

The church must accept, that it is in an 'eternal' conflict with Islam; this conflict must engage us at every level, physically, spiritually and mentally, until we have defeated and overcome the oppressor of the saints, and murderer of the brethren.

The church must, WAKE UP! If we do not overcome our self imposed mental inhibitions, which are not rooted in the Christ then we will assuredly defeat ourselves and be overcome by those who seek to do us harm...

All around the world, the Islamic faith is reviving, and in so doing it is waging a war against the Holy Church,

All around the Christian world, Christian are being misguided about what they can do by an over spiritualised and weak understanding of what it is to be a Christian...misguided and devided we are being thrown back and our holy places destroyed...our people persecuted...

The church must accept that the two challenges that face us; are to throw of the yoke of the Liberal Anti Christian Enlightenment...free our minds...and engage in the conflict with the Liberal and Islamic worlds...

The church must realise, that its great victories of the past were not wrought by sitting on ones hands consoling its self with spiritual platitudes about how GOD is gonna do something, or how he is in control...but by haveing the faith to realise that GOD calls us to be the solution to the tests He has presented us with, to act on our faith resolutely to advance it.

The church will only be taken seriously when it takes its self seriously.

I therefore offer this calling to all who have the heart to take it:

Deffend the honour of Christ, deffend the Brethren...

deffend them...FOR GOD, THE KINGDOM AND THE SAINTS...

CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE....

anewcrusade@hotmail.co.uk
Amen child, Amen.

Satan/Allah is working against our lord Jesus Christ and we must not let him win. WE are God's hand on the earth, and if we good christians won't stop the islamic threat then what kind of christians are we?!

[SpiritMeadow]

A real calling to dicuss...


A real calling to discuss...to pray about...and to act upon...the challenges we face as I see it...


The Church must accept that the Liberal Enlightenment is not a Christian movement, Liberalism is not the answer...but the Christ is, defacto, that means Christianity is the answer to our worlds problems!

The Church must accept that if it is to survive then their is a utility to force, and not absolute pacifism!

The church must accept, that it is in an 'eternal' conflict with Islam; this conflict must engage us at every level, physically, spiritually and mentally, until we have defeated and overcome the oppressor of the saints, and murderer of the brethren.

The church must, WAKE UP! If we do not overcome our self imposed mental inhibitions, which are not rooted in the Christ then we will assuredly defeat ourselves and be overcome by those who seek to do us harm...

All around the world, the Islamic faith is reviving, and in so doing it is waging a war against the Holy Church,

All around the Christian world, Christian are being misguided about what they can do by an over spiritualised and weak understanding of what it is to be a Christian...misguided and devided we are being thrown back and our holy places destroyed...our people persecuted...

The church must accept that the two challenges that face us; are to throw of the yoke of the Liberal Anti Christian Enlightenment...free our minds...and engage in the conflict with the Liberal and Islamic worlds...

The church must realise, that its great victories of the past were not wrought by sitting on ones hands consoling its self with spiritual platitudes about how GOD is gonna do something, or how he is in control...but by haveing the faith to realise that GOD calls us to be the solution to the tests He has presented us with, to act on our faith resolutely to advance it.

The church will only be taken seriously when it takes its self seriously.

I therefore offer this calling to all who have the heart to take it:

Deffend the honour of Christ, deffend the Brethren...

deffend them...FOR GOD, THE KINGDOM AND THE SAINTS...

CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE....

anewcrusade@hotmail.co.uk

wow, this would make any radical Islamic proud. You fundamentalists do think just alike I see....Scary.

[Vambram]

Indeed, i heard there were more and more christians in islamic countries. The fact is, islam would rather be gaining ground in western countries.

But Christ never told us to use violence or take arms, except the spiritual ones. If the church would wake up and set up to work, that is spread the Gospel and preach the Word of God, then it would be a true crusade, pleasing to the eyes of our God!
I agree with tamtam92, and her post here, rather than than what appears to be extreme right wing views from Kas.

[Varik]

I agree that something does need to be done about Islam, but it is unlikly that anything will happen as long as we keep electing spineless cowards for public office. When everyone relizes that Islam is not the peacefull religion our leaders and media claim that it is, then it will be to late for we will all be under an Islamic hegemony.

"Every one of the supposedly Christian Crusades in history to 'save' the 'holy land' (natural Israel) failed miserably in their stated purposes, because God was not consulted as to whether it was His will to initiate them."

Actually there major goal was to secure safe passage for pilgrams that where being killed by Muslims. The holy land was origonaly theres anyway for the Muslims had conquered it back in the late A.D.600. Back before then it was part of Christendom. The Crusades also served to stunt the Muslim advance into Europe. So the crusades where a success and not a faliure for they accomplished both of these.

[tamtam92]

Indeed, the OP is not at all in the "Love thy enemy" frame of thought. Hatred is not a christian characteristic... but by our love, we can show the muslims how different our God is from theirs!
Violence is the muslims game. Preaching is our duty, us who call ourselves christians.

[minister50]

Remember the Lord said:

(Luke 19:13) ................Occupy till I come.

[agapedragon]

Hellloooooooo, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace, not war! When is war ever Christian? That is just what the Muslims want. It would be an un-Christian act of violence and hatred to make war on Muslims and kill them. Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. Yes, I do know how hard this is, it is the hardest thing in the world to do when people hate you and persecute you, and I am a hypocrite, I do not always have an attitude of love and forgiveness I get angry and spiteful. I need to be more loving, forgiving, merciful and kind myself. Perhaps democratic governments can fight off terrorists, but we should not have a "Christian" army. There should be no such thing as a military or fighting unit that is considered " Christian." Individual soldiers can be Christians and can do what they can to help but the idea of a so-called Christian army giving orders to attack towns and kill people is really wrong.

They will know we are Christians by our love. There are moderate Muslims who have no problems with Christians. I certainly hope that the people wanting to kill or whip that poor lady who was the school teacher who let her class name a teddy bear Muhammad are the minority in Sudan and not the majority.

[Albion]

Hellloooooooo, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace, not war!

But remember that Jesus came to bring a peace that is not the peace of this world.
When is war ever Christian?

Oh, perhaps when we went to war to stop the slauighter of civilians and end the rule of tyrants twice in the World Wars, or liberated people from concentration camps and starvation as in Kosovo and Somalia. Of course, both of those are Muslim areas, and our thanks is now to be accused of wanting to insult and suppress Islam. But that's what the Christian does--act because the cause is right, not just to win friends and influence people.

[Atlantians]

Hellloooooooo, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace, not war! When is war ever Christian?
When Peace would forfeight love.

[woman.at.the.well]

Amen child, Amen.

Satan/Allah is working against our lord Jesus Christ and we must not let him win. WE are God's hand on the earth, and if we good christians won't stop the islamic threat then what kind of christians are we?!


i couldn't agree more. the op is spot on and so is this post! we can't accomplish a thing for God if we don't get off our keisters and actually DO something. God is worth the fight!

[twistedsketch]

Ironic, as Crusade is really a Christianized copy of Jihad.

[Atlantians]

Sorta. The crusades were way way more complicated than commonly understood.

[twistedsketch]

Sorta. The crusades were way way more complicated than commonly understood.
I've researched it. What I said refers to Crusade as a doctrine. It was preached out of political necessity.

[elev8baby]

Indeed, the OP is not at all in the "Love thy enemy" frame of thought. Hatred is not a christian characteristic... but by our love, we can show the muslims how different our God is from theirs!
Violence is the muslims game. Preaching is our duty, us who call ourselves christians.
Amen, We do need to engage in spiritual battle, ie spreading the good news to muslims.

[TwinCrier]

Why do people ever think Jesus is against war? What about all those parts in the bible where God tells His people to go to war against this nation and that? What do pacifist do when they come to something like David and Goliath? Turn the page in their bible and pretend they didn't read about the young boy chopping of the guys head? What are pacifists going to do during Armageddon when the rest of us are riding in on our steeds and the streets run with blood?

[twistedsketch]

I'm not a pacifist, but there is a good case for pacifism.

Why do people ever think Jesus is against war?
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles." - Matt. 5:38-41

What about all those parts in the bible where God tells His people to go to war against this nation and that? What do pacifist do when they come to something like David and Goliath? Turn the page in their bible and pretend they didn't read about the young boy chopping of the guys head?
Old covenant.

What are pacifists going to do during Armageddon when the rest of us are riding in on our steeds and the streets run with blood?
The armies of Heaven aren't really doing the fighting in Rev. 19:11-21. We're just the entourage. Jesus is going to say something to the effect of "DIE," and the battle will be over.

[TwinCrier]

I'm not a pacifist, but there is a good case for pacifism.


"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles." - Matt. 5:38-41


What does that have to do with war, police action or national defense? CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!


Old covenant.
So, killing wasn't wrong in the old testament, but now it is?

The armies of Heaven aren't really doing the fighting in Rev. 19:11-21. We're just the entourage. Jesus is going to say something to the effect of "DIE," and the battle will be over.I don't see that in my bible. A battle by definition requires some sort of fight.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/vets2.html

[woman.at.the.well]

What does that have to do with war, police action or national defense? CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!

So, killing wasn't wrong in the old testament, but now it is?

I don't see that in my bible. A battle by definition requires some sort of fight.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/vets2.html

I don't see that in my bible either. Matter of fact, reading my bible is what changed my viewpoint on the necessity of war to begin with. God, Jesus, this country (the U.S.A.), our safety and freedoms are VERY well worth the battle/fight!

[BigNorsk]

The thing that bothers me about the use of the word crusade is that I cannot see the command to go and bring the world under the dominion of our swords. What I do see is a clear command to make disciples.

The sword doesn't make disciples, someone might at the point of the sword say they believe, but we all know that isn't true. If I pointed a gun at you and said don't believe in Jesus or I shoot, there's not a one that can actually no believe, nor, if I pointed the gun and say believe could someone believe.

Instead we use what is sharper than any sword, the Word of God. And we use that, and the Word produces faith, real belief.

So yes, there should be crusades, but I would see the only type of crusade with a chance to suceed to be something like a Billy Graham crusade.

Marv

[HappyChicken]

All that I know, is that I have never read of Jesus using any physical defense against his attackers.... Only spiritual. Jesus guides me, I try to be like him....even though I will never come close. When there is war, you eliminate free-will. What are the Christians going to do? Kill all muslims who refuse to convert?? How right is that? Spiritual combat is far more challenging than physical combat..... please dont resort to war. It's UGLY.

[TwinCrier]

Jesus didn't use computers either.
Jesus will come back and engage in war in the future. No one is talking about killing all non-Christians so the point is moot. However, if people in the Middle East are ever going to have a snowballs chance in hell of even learning who Jesus is, they have to have the liberty and freedom to do so.
War doesn't eliminate free-will, it ensures it! Tyrants don't respond to platitudes.

[twistedsketch]

What does that have to do with war, police action or national defense? CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!
Good answer.

So, killing wasn't wrong in the old testament, but now it is?
No, murder was always wrong in the Old Testament, and various forms of killing were lawful. However, Jesus gave us a new command - to go into the world and make disciples. This is inherently incompatible with killing those who don't believe. The point of making disciples is so that more people will go to Heaven, not Hell. Kill an unbeliever, and he goes to Hell. Give him the Gospel, and he may convert. Look at the New Testament, at the sorcerers who converted and burned their scrolls in public (Acts 19:19). Or at Saul of Tarsus. If Christians had taken an Old Testament approach to these people, they would have been killed, not preached to.

I don't see that in my bible. A battle by definition requires some sort of fight.


Look closer. According to the respected Baptist pastor John Gill's commentary (the blue is what I am using to prove my point):

Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven…
Not the angels, though they are God's host, and are the armies of the heavens; they are in heaven, and dwell there, and follow Christ, attend upon him, and minister to him, and have been sometimes represented by horses and horsemen, (2 Kings 2:11) (6:17) (Zechariah 1:8) and they are pure and holy creatures, and will come with Christ to judgment: but this vision refers not to the day of judgment; and besides, the saints are meant, as appears by their habit, for the fine linen, white and clean, is the righteousness of the saints, (Revelation 19:8) and the righteousness of angels and saints is not the same. Moreover, these are the same company described in (Revelation 17:14) . The saints are in a state of warfare, have many enemies to fight with, sin, Satan, and the world; they are enlisted as volunteers under Christ, the Captain of salvation; they are provided with the whole armour of God, and are very numerous, and always more than conquerors through Christ: these are described by the place where they were, "in heaven"; not being glorified saints in heaven; with these indeed Christ will come to judgment, even with all his saints with him; but members of the church militant, said to be in heaven, because that is often called the kingdom of heaven; and because their names are written in heaven, and they are of heavenly extract; they are born from above, and are partakers of the heavenly calling; they belong to heaven, they are citizens of it, and are pressing on to it. And these

followed him;
Christ, their Leader and Commander in the exercise of grace, and in the discharge of duty; having gone on in his ways through a train of sufferings, and cleaved unto him, and now attend him; not to assist in fighting, but to add to the glorious and triumphant appearance of their General; and therefore are said to be

upon white horses;
they had served Christ in his Gospel, which some of them had preached, and all professed, and had maintained the purity of it in doctrine and practice, and now triumphed in Christ, and along with him, riding upon horses of the same colour with his, as being his princes and nobles, and whom he had made kings as well as priests; the former may be signified by their horses; see (Judges 5:10) and the latter by their following habit,

clothed in fine linen, white and clean;
not the horses, but the armies on them; which designs not their inward purity, which was very glorious; nor their outward conversation garments, washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb; but the robe of Christ's righteousness, which is pure and spotless: these have no armour on, for they are not to strike a blow, only their General, who has the bloody garment on, is to tread the winepress, and destroy antichrist with the breath of his mouth, or with his sword proceeding out of it, as follows.

Revelation 19:19

And l saw the beast…
Not the devil, for after this he is taken and bound for a thousand years, and then loosed, and laid hold on again, and cast into the lake of fire; not but that this war will be by his instigation, and under his influence, (Revelation 16:14) not the Roman Pagan empire, which has been destroyed long ago, under the sixth seal, and was the issue of the battle between Michael and his angels, and the dragon and his; but the antichristian civil powers, or antichrist in his civil capacity; and which, though it may chiefly regard the western antichrist, and the remains of the Latin idolatry, yet may take in the eastern antichrist, or the Mahometan powers, which may all join together in this battle; the beast will survive for a while the downfall of his seat, Babylon or Rome.

And the kings of the earth;
these, as they stand distinguished from the beast, or the antichristian kings, and civil states, may design as many of the Pagan kings and princes, as the pope and Turk by their emissaries can persuade to assist them in this war; (See Gill on Revelation 16:14).

And their armies gathered together;
at Armageddon, or in the valley of Jehoshaphat, (Revelation 16:16) (Joel 3:2,12)

to make war against him that sat on the horse;
the white horse, (Revelation 19:11) as the Arabic and Ethiopic versions read, which must be downright folly and madness, since he is the Word of God, the great God, the King of kings, and Lord of lords:

and against his army,
(Revelation 19:14) who, though unarmed, and only clothed in fine linen, have nothing to fear, since Christ, the Captain of their salvation, is at the head of them.


Revelation 19:20

And the beast was taken…
At the first onset, as soon as ever the battle begun, and carried away captive, as it was threatened he should, (Revelation 13:10) and this by Christ, who will destroy him with the breath of his mouth, and the brightness of his coming, (2 Thessalonians 2:8) .

And with him the false prophet;
that is, the second beast in (Revelation 13:11-14) as appears by the characters by which he is here described, or antichrist in his ecclesiastic capacity; that is, the pope with his clergy: and indeed, when the antichristian princes and states are taken and destroyed, which are the support of the Papacy, that must in consequence sink, be crushed and ruined; the Alexandrian copy reads, "and they that are with him, the false prophet Jezebel"; the false prophetess and her children, who will now be killed with death, (Revelation 2:20,23)

that wrought miracles before him:
the beast, or the civil antichristian powers, even signs and lying wonders, which were approved of, and applauded by him, by which, believing them, he was confirmed in antichristian principles:

with which he deceived them that had the mark of the beast, and them
that worshipped his image;
the several subjects of the antichristian states; see (Revelation 13:14-17) but none of God's elect, who cannot be seduced by such means, (Matthew 24:24) .

These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with
brimstone;
which is the second death, (Revelation 21:8) . The severe punishment of antichrist, considered in both his capacities, civil and ecclesiastic, is expressed by being "cast into a lake of fire", not material fire, but the wrath of God, which will be poured out like fire, and will be intolerable; and by this lake "burning with brimstone", which, giving a nauseous stench, aggravates the punishment. Says R. Joden F20, when a man smells the smell of brimstone, why does his breath draw back at it (or catch)? because he knows he shall be judged with it in the world to come. The allusion seems to be to the place where Sodom and Gomorrah stood, which is become a sulphurous lake, and is an emblem of the vengeance of eternal fire, (Jude 1:7) and these two are said to be "cast alive" into it, which shows that they will not only suffer a corporeal death at this battle, and in the issue of it, but will be destroyed, body and soul, in hell: the phrase denotes the awfulness, inevitableness, and severity of their punishment; there seems to be some reference to the earth's swallowing up Korah and his company alive, (Numbers 16:33) see (Daniel 7:11) .

Revelation 19:21

And the remnant were slain…
Not only the kings of the earth, and their armies, that will now be gathered together, but all the remains of Papists, Pagans, and Mahometans, in the several parts of the world, even all the enemies of Christ: these will be slain

with the sword of him that sat upon the horse;
upon the white horse, as the Ethiopic version reads; the Arabic version reads, that sat upon the throne,

which sword proceedeth out of his mouth,
(Revelation 19:15) and is the word of God, or the judiciary sentence of Christ according to it; and the meaning is, either that these shall be subdued, conquered, and converted by the word; and so are fitly called a "remnant", a remnant according to the election of grace among the antichristian party; and which sense agrees with (Revelation 11:13) or else that they will be convicted and confounded, and not be able to stand against the light and evidence of the word of God, and will be sentenced by Christ to everlasting punishment; and it may be partly one, and partly the other.

And all the fowls were filled with their flesh;
all the Christian princes and people will be satisfied with their kingdoms, riches, and wealth, and will rejoice at their destruction, and in the righteousness of God, which will be displayed in it; and now the world being clear of all Christ's enemies, Pagan, Papal, and Mahometan, the way will be prepared for Christ's open and glorious kingdom in it.

[tamtam92]

I don't see that in my bible. A battle by definition requires some sort of fight.

This is a spiritual battle
Reading what weapons God provides us with (read Ephesians 6), i see what kind of battle we're up to.

I don't know what's to expect in the future, but now is the time when people are given a chance for repentance. How are they to repent once dead? How are we to judge that they're not anymore worthy of God's mercy?

[brachah]

This is a spiritual battle

agree

[LawsonAlan]

Hellloooooooo, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace, not war! When is war ever Christian? That is just what the Muslims want. It would be an un-Christian act of violence and hatred to make war on Muslims and kill them. Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. Yes, I do know how hard this is, it is the hardest thing in the world to do when people hate you and persecute you, and I am a hypocrite, I do not always have an attitude of love and forgiveness I get angry and spiteful. I need to be more loving, forgiving, merciful and kind myself. Perhaps democratic governments can fight off terrorists, but we should not have a "Christian" army. There should be no such thing as a military or fighting unit that is considered " Christian." Individual soldiers can be Christians and can do what they can to help but the idea of a so-called Christian army giving orders to attack towns and kill people is really wrong.

They will know we are Christians by our love. There are moderate Muslims who have no problems with Christians. I certainly hope that the people wanting to kill or whip that poor lady who was the school teacher who let her class name a teddy bear Muhammad are the minority in Sudan and not the majority.
Agree totally.

[plmarquette]

Indeed, the OP is not at all in the "Love thy enemy" frame of thought. Hatred is not a christian characteristic... but by our love, we can show the muslims how different our God is from theirs!
Violence is the muslims game. Preaching is our duty, us who call ourselves christians.
good!

We are called "Children of the Book"... Jews, Christians, and Moslems ...

Perhaps if we share with them that the Christian Jihad (the crusades...) did not work ...nor did the reformation and inquisition .... which are analagous to what is going on in their faith around the world...

there is a book called "Jesus Freaks" which lists all the Christian Martyrs ... a record of those who were killed in the Holocaust .... and thousands of Moslems who are going to their death doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason.... perhaps ...

a man convinced against his will by violence is of the same opinion still ...

Love, the 11th commandment ... love as God loves... Romans 12.18-21 be kind to enemy .... Matthew 5.12-14 bless those who hate you ....

One person at a time .... all the time you have left... to walk upright, that they might see Jesus in you

[lismore]

There are moderate Muslims who have no problems with Christians. I certainly hope that the people wanting to kill or whip that poor lady who was the school teacher who let her class name a teddy bear Muhammad are the minority in Sudan and not the majority.

Unfortunately judging by the demonstrations on the streets of Khartoum at the time, many thousands of Sudanese Muslims wished that lady harm.

I think it is a stretch to call Islam a peaceful religion.

You have only to look at Saudi Arabia, the head of Islam today. They dont let Jews into their country or anyone with an israeli stamp on their passport. Barbaric punishments are handed out and the head cleric in Riaydh recently called for the murder of Jews calling them pigs and dogs.

Peace and tolerance? I dont think so.

[lismore]

Oh, perhaps when we went to war to stop the slauighter of civilians and end the rule of tyrants twice in the World Wars, or liberated people from concentration camps and starvation as in Kosovo and Somalia.

I think there are times when we must fight in self defence. World War 2 was an example.

We should not forget that Islam was halted initially only by a series of bloody battles.

The Greeks had to fight to stop their city {Constantinople} being taken in 679 AD.

The French General Charles martel stopped the muslims at the Battle of Tours in 732. If the French hadnt stood their country would have been overrun like Spain.

Only battles like these saved Europe:wave:

Did David not stand against Goliath?

[lismore]

Sorta. The crusades were way way more complicated than commonly understood.

The crusades were a reaction against Muslim aggression. Some background events to the crusade of 1095AD should be considered:

1064AD The Turks capture and sack Ani the capital city of Armenia and murder 200,000 civilians in cold blood

1071AD the Turks defeat the Byzantine Empire at the battle of Manzikert

This was followed by the Turks taking over Greek cities like Nicaea and Nicomedia

Only then did the Greek Emperor Alexius Comnenus write to the Pope asking for help against the maurading Turks.

Ironic, as Crusade is really a Christianized copy of Jihad.

Not really.

The Byzantine Emperor Heraclius launched a crusade against the Persians in 610AD, well before the invention of Islam. The monastries sold their treasures and handed over the money to him.

Here is a good source: 'The First Crusader' {Chapter 14} in 'Byzantium: The Early Centuries by John Julius Norwich.

[Beccs]

A real calling to dicuss...


A real calling to discuss...to pray about...and to act upon...the challenges we face as I see it...


The Church must accept that the Liberal Enlightenment is not a Christian movement, Liberalism is not the answer...but the Christ is, defacto, that means Christianity is the answer to our worlds problems!

The Church must accept that if it is to survive then their is a utility to force, and not absolute pacifism!

The church must accept, that it is in an 'eternal' conflict with Islam; this conflict must engage us at every level, physically, spiritually and mentally, until we have defeated and overcome the oppressor of the saints, and murderer of the brethren.

The church must, WAKE UP! If we do not overcome our self imposed mental inhibitions, which are not rooted in the Christ then we will assuredly defeat ourselves and be overcome by those who seek to do us harm...

All around the world, the Islamic faith is reviving, and in so doing it is waging a war against the Holy Church,

All around the Christian world, Christian are being misguided about what they can do by an over spiritualised and weak understanding of what it is to be a Christian...misguided and devided we are being thrown back and our holy places destroyed...our people persecuted...

The church must accept that the two challenges that face us; are to throw of the yoke of the Liberal Anti Christian Enlightenment...free our minds...and engage in the conflict with the Liberal and Islamic worlds...

The church must realise, that its great victories of the past were not wrought by sitting on ones hands consoling its self with spiritual platitudes about how GOD is gonna do something, or how he is in control...but by haveing the faith to realise that GOD calls us to be the solution to the tests He has presented us with, to act on our faith resolutely to advance it.

The church will only be taken seriously when it takes its self seriously.

I therefore offer this calling to all who have the heart to take it:

Deffend the honour of Christ, deffend the Brethren...

deffend them...FOR GOD, THE KINGDOM AND THE SAINTS...

CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE....


(anewcrusade@hotmail.co.uk)
Thank god for the dangers of fanaticism . . .

[Jonteel]

Hellloooooooo, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace, not war! When is war ever Christian? That is just what the Muslims want. It would be an un-Christian act of violence and hatred to make war on Muslims and kill them. Jesus said to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. Yes, I do know how hard this is, it is the hardest thing in the world to do when people hate you and persecute you, and I am a hypocrite, I do not always have an attitude of love and forgiveness I get angry and spiteful. I need to be more loving, forgiving, merciful and kind myself. Perhaps democratic governments can fight off terrorists, but we should not have a "Christian" army. There should be no such thing as a military or fighting unit that is considered " Christian." Individual soldiers can be Christians and can do what they can to help but the idea of a so-called Christian army giving orders to attack towns and kill people is really wrong.

They will know we are Christians by our love. There are moderate Muslims who have no problems with Christians. I certainly hope that the people wanting to kill or whip that poor lady who was the school teacher who let her class name a teddy bear Muhammad are the minority in Sudan and not the majority.
Back in the 70's, I was a warrior type of guy. The war in Vietnam was the big issue. I met Godly Christians and gave myself to god. But, I had to rethink my stand on violence. I searched the Bible, and all I found was that soldiers shouldn't abuse their position.

Those days were very anti war. All wars. But, there is a reason to go to war. The old testament cannot be abandoned. Remember that we live in a world where evil will overcome good, if we let it. To say that all war is wrong, well, that is optimistic. If evil men conquer your land and tell you what religion you will be in, then suffering will follow. It could be years of suffering. Look at Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, and a few other Muslim nations. I hear that in Egypt they can take your children away from you and then you will only see them in court. That is misery.

[Atlantians]

The crusades were a reaction against Muslim aggression. Some background events to the crusade of 1095AD should be considered:

1064AD The Turks capture and sack Ani the capital city of Armenia and murder 200,000 civilians in cold blood

1071AD the Turks defeat the Byzantine Empire at the battle of Manzikert

This was followed by the Turks taking over Greek cities like Nicaea and Nicomedia

Only then did the Greek Emperor Alexius Comnenus write to the Pope asking for help against the maurading Turks.
Indeed.

What is astounding, in fact, is that the first crusade was made up of many tribes that were actually enemies of Emporer Alexius.

Furthermore, the First Crusade was launched by the Roman Catholic Pope after the official split with the Eastern Orthadox!

The enemies came to the rescue of their enemy because the enemy were brothers in Christ.

There were pleanty of other factors aswell:
The Pope was trying to destroy corruption in the Church and refound it is a solid and holy institution.
The Pope needed to end the chaos and bloodshed in Europe from many trivial wars between fueding groups.

[Irespectfullydisagree]

The Islamic faith is a generally peacefull and extremely tolerant faith. The violent jihadists are the VAST minority and are also considered heretics by others of their own faith. The jihadists garner so much attention because they are so violent, because of this many uninformed people tend to believe that all muslims are insane people bent on destroying western ideaology and religion. There is no "problem" with muslims, there is however a problem with Jihadists.

[biblelove]

Jesus didn't use computers either.
Jesus will come back and engage in war in the future. No one is talking about killing all non-Christians so the point is moot. However, if people in the Middle East are ever going to have a snowballs chance in hell of even learning who Jesus is, they have to have the liberty and freedom to do so.
War doesn't eliminate free-will, it ensures it! Tyrants don't respond to platitudes.
i find all your posts very worrying

your pure, unadulterated hatered only breeds more hatred

if you actually took the time to look into islam you will find it is just as peace loving , humane and god worthy

you seem to tarnish all muslims wiht the samebrush as the extreemists. as someone said, a crusade is no better than jihad.

different religions can happily live together, it is only the etreemist who cause friction

last night, we had our two best friends over, who are islam, eating their halal meat (which is the best quality meat you can get, and i will fight anyone who says it is not!)

[BigNorsk]

You must live in a city so you can't easily get good quality meat. That's too bad. There really is nothing special quality wise about Halal meat. The advantage of specialty meats such as Halal or Kosher is that often the best quality is not diverted to other places such as is common say if you just buy meat in a supermarket.

Marv

[rrguy]

Good post

Just from what I have read, in history & present they don't seem to allow other religions. When Chrisitians fought back in history they it is still held against them today? Not saying standing up for what you believe is not good. I agree war or force & religion does not go together. I think we all need to pray for peace.

[woman.at.the.well]

A real calling to dicuss...


A real calling to discuss...to pray about...and to act upon...the challenges we face as I see it...


The Church must accept that the Liberal Enlightenment is not a Christian movement, Liberalism is not the answer...but the Christ is, defacto, that means Christianity is the answer to our worlds problems!

The Church must accept that if it is to survive then their is a utility to force, and not absolute pacifism!

The church must accept, that it is in an 'eternal' conflict with Islam; this conflict must engage us at every level, physically, spiritually and mentally, until we have defeated and overcome the oppressor of the saints, and murderer of the brethren.

The church must, WAKE UP! If we do not overcome our self imposed mental inhibitions, which are not rooted in the Christ then we will assuredly defeat ourselves and be overcome by those who seek to do us harm...

All around the world, the Islamic faith is reviving, and in so doing it is waging a war against the Holy Church,

All around the Christian world, Christian are being misguided about what they can do by an over spiritualised and weak understanding of what it is to be a Christian...misguided and devided we are being thrown back and our holy places destroyed...our people persecuted...

The church must accept that the two challenges that face us; are to throw of the yoke of the Liberal Anti Christian Enlightenment...free our minds...and engage in the conflict with the Liberal and Islamic worlds...

The church must realise, that its great victories of the past were not wrought by sitting on ones hands consoling its self with spiritual platitudes about how GOD is gonna do something, or how he is in control...but by haveing the faith to realise that GOD calls us to be the solution to the tests He has presented us with, to act on our faith resolutely to advance it.

The church will only be taken seriously when it takes its self seriously.

I therefore offer this calling to all who have the heart to take it:

Deffend the honour of Christ, deffend the Brethren...

deffend them...FOR GOD, THE KINGDOM AND THE SAINTS...

CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE...CRUSADE, CRUSADE, CRUSADE....


(anewcrusade@hotmail.co.uk)

amen!