Proposal for definition in FAQ of "Christianity" [Archive]

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Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 02:21 AM

Hi all
I have taken the original faq definition and used it as a template and general outline, to try to make few changes as possible and still come to points of doctrine that are key concerning 'christianity'. Also please compare the opening introduction and compare it with the introduction presently on the faq definition. I believe youll find this an improvement, though this is just a draft.

Several of you have pm'd me with your suggestions which i have tried to incorporate into the definition without being overly-redundant.

Imho, this even goes so far as to pretty much define what i understand Erwin's vision to be. Here is what i am presenting and we can kick it around some.

Definition of a Christian

Foru.ms is a very socially stimulating Christian based online community that is open to everyone, Christian or Nonchristian alike.
The foundations of ForU.ms are based on Christian principles. Nearly every major church or denomination of Christianity is represented here. As an outreach to the world, the hurting, the lonely, those in need, ALL who are christian or nonchristian are welcome here for stimulating fellowship and discussion.
For the purposes of clarifying just what "Christianity" is, Foru.ms uses the following definition of "Christian".

1. Christian

A Christian, simply put, is a disciple of Jesus Christ:
Acts 11:26 (NIV) "The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
What is a disciple? One who believes and adheres to and follows a particular way or belief. Christianity has historicly and biblically worshiped Jesus as savior of mankind and the Lord God, God being a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are one.

To become a Christian, a person should refer to the following Scripture (for more details click here):
John 3:16 (NIV) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Romans 10:9-13 (NIV) "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.""

Acts 2:38 (NIV) "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Basic Christian Belief
There are many denominations involved together in outreach here at ForU.ms. Because of this you can expect varying opinions on what some refer to as 'nonessentials', but as a whole the Christian belief does believe, adhere to, and follow some beliefs that are absolutely essential. For instance most would agree that even if only for obedience, those who are saved should also be baptized. On the other hand what most would say is less essential is the method of baptism.
The following are the some of the core essential beliefs of Christianity...

We believe (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
We also believe in:
one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
We believe that this God is a trinity
We believe that this Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that they are ONE God in 3 Persons.
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from His home in heaven above, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
Christians acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
Christians look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Christians also acknowledge from the Holy Scriptures, that the Apostle Thomas declared Jesus to be God, the bible refers to God as the savior of the world in many places.
Christians also acknowledge the inspiration of the bible and recognize it is the infallable Word of God as it was penned in the original manuscripts.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

In short, Christianity teaches that we have all sinned. We have all fallen short of the glory and righteousness of God. We are told that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus the Christ or Messiah. We believe that God loved us so much, that He gave His Son, His Son came willingly and chose to die for our sins, paying the price for our sins, so that we can escape death and hell, and have eternal life.
We are told in the book of Acts that GOD bought the church with His own blood. From the time of Thomas the apostle to now, worshipers of God in the Christian faith recognize and worship Jesus as God.

Yet, there is some variance amongst Christians in lesser matters which do not effect our salvation.
* Some, but not all add the filioque
* Some, but not all adhere to Baptism for the remission of sins.
* Some, but not all, believe Christ will reign for a literal 1000 years ending before the final judgment.
* Some, but not all will not ascribe to creeds, yet their beliefs are in many cases summarized by the Nicene Creed, but out of deference to Sola Scriptura, they will not agree to any creed created by man, However, these still represent the basic major core beliefs of those who subscribe to no creed.

Lastly and most importantly:

Christianity teaches that without love, we cannot be saved. If we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven. We should forgive men their trespasses against as in the same way we desire God have mercy on US. A follower of Christ doesnt doubt His word in anything, and Jesus said "Love thy neighbor as thyself". To clarify also, it should also be added here that Christians firmly believe in meekness, but not weakness. Boldness and truth do not equal lack of love, however a true christian would feed, and clothe and shelter his enemy, showing genuine compassion, in acts of nobility and kindness and love. Our prayer would be that you too believed for today is the day of salvation, and no one is guaranteed a tomorrow.

kiwimac

6th October 2007, 04:00 AM

Nope. Same old. Still as objectionable as the first time arfound.

MrJim

6th October 2007, 08:54 AM

I didn't find anything objectionable...

Jim47

6th October 2007, 12:28 PM

Be back later, thanks for the invite :)

Miracle Storm

6th October 2007, 12:38 PM

I'm in.
BBL
*tonight :)

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 12:39 PM

Be back later, thanks for the invite :)
HAPPY BIRTHDAY JIM!!!

Good to see ya brother, see ya when ya get back, and bring me some cake please lol

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 12:39 PM

I'm in.
BBL
*tonight :)
Alright girl i'll see ya later and thanx n God bless ;)

Auntie

6th October 2007, 12:43 PM

Time, it sounds good to me! :thumbsup: :wave:

Veritas_et_Puritas

6th October 2007, 03:28 PM

ladybug1980

6th October 2007, 03:33 PM

This is great, I like a compiled list of characteristics that can be ascribed to what a Christian is (or can be)

:amen:

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 03:41 PM

Odd. There are Christians who do not believe in one baptism for the remission of sins, according to the Scriptures? And there are Christians who do not believe that Mary is the mother of God? (Jesus = God, Mary = mother of Jesus, therefore Mary = mother of God in time, not in eternity.)

Maybe I need to get out more, but I find that somewhat shocking.
Hi and yes there are

However here is the present faq definition of christianity

http://foru.ms/faq.php?faq=definition_christian#faq_definition_christian_content

I believe if you look at this youll see the open door for much damnable heresy, and the new definition eliminates nearly all imho.

I do believe the new proposed definition is a VAST improvement over the old and i like the introduction a lot better than the one we presently have :D

kiwimac

6th October 2007, 03:51 PM

You might, others of us are quite happy with the FAQ as it stands.

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 03:55 PM

Why would this be? I have to ask, are you happy with it in spite of the fact it allows someone to say they believe anything or disbelieve anything at all and still claim to be a 'christian', or because of the fact?

Rhamiel

6th October 2007, 04:09 PM

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 04:22 PM

I am afraid that people start to narrowly define what a christian is some protestants will try to exclude the Catholics, not that the Catholic Church is unchristian but many view her as such and attack her without end
I appreciate that concern Rhamiel,
That my brother, i will not allow or stand for. You have my word. As a matter of fact i removed many of the loopholes that were included following in the nicene creed in the present definition. Imho this will bring us back to a good nonheretical standard agreed upon by both Catholic and protestant,

Angel4Truth

6th October 2007, 08:54 PM

Looks good to me and i agree 100 percent with it- however because there are so many universalists on this site, youll have a hard time with this so that we can escape death and hell most of them do not believe there is such a place as hell.

As for this also * Some, but not all attribute Mary as the mother of God. Im not sure why its there because the nicene creed doesnt mention it either way.

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 08:55 PM

Be back later, thanks for the invite :)
Hay, Happy Bday Jim!!!

I'm here, thanks for the link

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 09:08 PM

Looks good to me and i agree 100 percent with it- however because there are so many universalists on this site, youll have a hard time with this most of them do not believe there is such a place as hell.

As for this also Im not sure why its there because the nicene creed doesnt mention it either way.
Good points Angel

Thoughts?

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 09:11 PM

Definition of a Christian

1. Christian

A Christian, simply put, is a disciple of Jesus Christ:
Acts 11:26 (NIV) "The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
What is a disciple? One who believes and adheres to and follows a particular way or belief. Christianity has historicly and biblically worshiped Jesus as savior of mankind and the Lord God, God being a Trinity of Father Son and Holy Spirit, which are one.
To become a Christian, a person should refer to the following Scripture (for more details click here):
John 3:16 (NIV) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Romans 10:9-13 (NIV) "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.""
Acts 2:38 (NIV) "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Basic Christian Belief
There are many denominations involved together in outreach here at ForU.ms. Because of this you can expect varying opinions on what some refer to as 'nonessentials', but as a whole the Christian belief does believe, adhere to, and follow some beliefs that are absolutely essential.
For instance most would agree that even if only for obedience, those who are saved should also be baptized. On the other hand what most would say is less essential is the method of baptism.
The following are the some of the core essential beliefs of Christianity...

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
We believe that this God is a trinity
We believe that this Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each are individual and independant of one another, and yet these 3 are one. All 3 are individually God, and yet they are ONE God.
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
*possibly note he is FROM heaven above?*
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I (verbage - remove "I"?) acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

We also see from the Holy Scriptures, that the Apostle Thomas declared Jesus to be God, the bible refers to God as the savior of the world in many places.
*could add Heb. 1:8 Father calls Son God (Ho Theos)?

In short, Christianity teaches that we have all sinned. We have all fallen short of the glory and righteousness of God. We are told that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus the Christ or Messiah. We believe that God loved us so much, that He gave His Son, His Son came willingly and chose to die for our sins, paying the price, giving satan his ransom for our sins, so that we can escape death and hell, and have eternal life. We are told in the book of Acts 20:28 that GOD bought the church with His own blood. From the time of Thomas the apostle to now, worshipers of God in the Christian faith recognize and worship Jesus as God.

Yet, there is some variance amongst Nicene Christians.
* Some, but not all add the filioque
* Some, but not all adhere to Baptism for the remission of sins.
* Some, but not all attribute Mary as the mother of God.
* Some, but not all, believe Christ will reign for a literal 1000 years ending before the final judgment.

* Some, but not all will not ascribe to creeds, yet their beliefs are in many cases summarized by the Nicene Creed, but out of deference to Sola Scriptura, they will not agree to any creed created by man, However, these still represent the basic major core beliefs of those who subscribe to no creed.

I made some purple spell checks, possible verbage changes if you wanted that, & some little notes or added the specific verse.

After reading that, if I was unsaved, I'd be kinda wondering, "so what's essential when so many very from the "core" beliefs of Christianity?
It's nothing wrong with this definition, but it's something I'd wonder as a nonChristian why they differed so much :scratch:

I'll go over it again & see if anything comes to mind.
Well done!! :cool:

Vambram

6th October 2007, 09:12 PM

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 09:15 PM

Good points Angel

I do realize a big fight from certain members, universalists and jw's and a few more.

Heres the game plan if it sounds good to everyone.
If everyone incl. nonChristians accepted it, it would make me worry about what's listed as being a Christian believer. :scratch: :(

First we get it like we want to present it

Second, note that important phrases are used 2 and 3 times. This is for the point of negotiating. We will be able to negotiate away one or 2 of one phrase and still have it stated.

When we present this to everyone itll be in a poll for christians only. This will eliminate a large possible portion of negative or hostile voters.

When we present it, contact people we know who will sign and have them ready and waiting to sign as fast as possible. We would ideally be able to discourage a few fence sitters who will go either way, and when they see an overwhelming fast go vote, they MAY join us.

I am thinking this strategy may be our best shot to narrow the odds for us and give us the best possible chance to win.

I will remove the part about not believing mary to be the mother of God.

Thoughts?
Count me in -:thumbsup: I do worry about everyone agreeing what a Christian is; namely those who scripturally don't fit the definition by their beliefs.

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 09:17 PM

I made some purple spell checks, possible verbage changes if you wanted that, & some little notes or added the specific verse.

After reading that, if I was unsaved, I'd be kinda wondering, "so what's essential when so many very from the "core" beliefs of Christianity?
It's nothing wrong with this definition, but it's something I'd wonder as a nonChristian why they differed so much :scratch:

I'll go over it again & see if anything comes to mind.
Well done!! :cool:
Thank you Vambram and God bless you

Nadiine thank you too, im going back to apply those changes in the op so we keep it updated right

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 09:21 PM

is it going too far to mention that we believe the Bible is God's inspired word?
Like use the verse where it says "holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost"?

Err no?
(I'll add that just having to ASK that makes me vomit - it should be a GIVEN we all readily accept). *ugh*

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 09:27 PM

Nadiine i made the suggested changes, thank you lol.

Also i added one change, heres how it reads now in the op, with my last change in red

Definition of a Christian

Foru.ms is a very socially stimulating Christian based online community that is open to everyone, Christian or Nonchristian alike.
The foundations of ForU.ms are based on Christian principles. Nearly every major church or denomination of Christianity is represented here. As an outreach to the world, the hurting, the lonely, those in need, ALL who are christian or nonchristian are welcome here for stimulating fellowship and discussion.
For the purposes of clarifying just what "Christianity" is, Foru.ms uses the following definition of "Christian".

1. Christian

A Christian, simply put, is a disciple of Jesus Christ:
Acts 11:26 (NIV) "The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
What is a disciple? One who believes and adheres to and follows a particular way or belief. Christianity has historicly and biblically worshiped Jesus as savior of mankind and the Lord God, God being a Trinity of Father Son and Holy Spirit, which are one.
To become a Christian, a person should refer to the following Scripture (for more details click here):
John 3:16 (NIV) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Romans 10:9-13 (NIV) "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.""
Acts 2:38 (NIV) "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Basic Christian Belief
There are many denominations involved together in outreach here at ForU.ms. Because of this you can expect varying opinions on what some refer to as 'nonessentials', but as a whole the Christian belief does believe, adhere to, and follow some beliefs that are absolutely essential. For instance most would agree that even if only for obedience, those who are saved should also be baptized. On the other hand what most would say is less essential is the method of baptism.
The following are the some of the core essential beliefs of Christianity...

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
We believe that this God is a trinity
We believe that this Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each are individual and independant of one another, and yet these 3 are one. All 3 are individually God, and yet they are ONE God.
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from His home in heaven above, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
Christians acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
Christians look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Christians also acknowledge from the Holy Scriptures, that the Apostle Thomas declared Jesus to be God, the bible refers to God as the savior of the world in many places.
In short, Christianity teaches that we have all sinned. We have all fallen short of the glory and righteousness of God. We are told that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus the Christ or Messiah. We believe that God loved us so much, that He gave His Son, His Son came willingly and chose to die for our sins, paying the price, giving satan his ransom for our sins, so that we can escape death and hell, and have eternal life. We are told in the book of Acts that GOD bought the church with His own blood. From the time of Thomas the apostle to now, worshipers of God in the Christian faith recognize and worship Jesus as God.

Yet, there is some variance amongst Nicene Christians.
* Some, but not all add the filioque
* Some, but not all adhere to Baptism for the remission of sins.
* Some, but not all, believe Christ will reign for a literal 1000 years ending before the final judgment.
* Some, but not all will not ascribe to creeds, yet their beliefs are in many cases summarized by the Nicene Creed, but out of deference to Sola Scriptura, they will not agree to any creed created by man, However, these still represent the basic major core beliefs of those who subscribe to no creed.

Vambram

6th October 2007, 09:28 PM

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 09:28 PM

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 09:30 PM

Unfortunately, not all born-again Christians agree on what the definition of the Inspiration of Scripture is. :(
i agree thats a sad note my friend. But even just adding it but not in detail, i believe it will weed out heresies that are fairly common, for instance part of it being inspired and part of it not.

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 09:31 PM

Nadiine what do you think of placing that about where the nicene creed started, right between "we believe" and " one God "?

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 09:35 PM

Unfortunately, not all born-again Christians agree on what the definition of the Inspiration of Scripture is. :(
I agree that "inspiration" can have some interprative discussion, believing that our Bible is where we learn about GOD from tho... that's a MUST - otherwise what separates a Christian from any other religion?

Even other religions espouse their writings as "holy and sacred' from whatever founders or 'gods' they proclaim authority from.
The books define the religion (basically).

I'd have no problem - in fact, I think it should be mentioned that inspired doesn't mean "verbatim/word for word dictation from God" - that's not what we claim - it's the principles & concepts & teachings that are directly inspired (ie prophecies are foretold & fulfilled)
-- there are translative differences, but they all teach the same doctrines. (it's just people who botch them up from there.) lol
:help: :holy: :holy:

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 09:36 PM

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 09:46 PM

*it should also be noted that we do not claim that a Bible is mandatory to "KNOW" God by - many who have no access to Bibles can be called by God and believe outside of scripture.
Just that the Bible is God's word - we happen to have access to Bibles & a Christian shouldn't be denying or rejecting it as truth.
thats a good point too

check it out now that we've made some miunor tweaks and tell me if you have any ideas of where and how to do that...

Melethiel

6th October 2007, 10:54 PM

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 11:01 PM

You put belief in the inspiration of Scriptures before belief in God in your "corrections" to the Nicene Creed as the statement of the core beliefs of Christianity?

Should I even get started on how wrong that is?
What would you suggest?

I believe you agree they are inspired? How do we learn of God? From what source? Seems to me His word is foundational in our understanding of Who God is and what salvation is imho

NewGuy101

6th October 2007, 11:04 PM

I made some purple spell checks, possible verbage changes if you wanted that, & some little notes or added the specific verse.

After reading that, if I was unsaved, I'd be kinda wondering, "so what's essential when so many very from the "core" beliefs of Christianity?
It's nothing wrong with this definition, but it's something I'd wonder as a nonChristian why they differed so much :scratch:

I'll go over it again & see if anything comes to mind.
Well done!! :cool:

Excellent Job Nadiine!! T2BC I told you to watch for those. :P

But I think it's an excellent definition!

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 11:06 PM

Melethiel

6th October 2007, 11:08 PM

What would you suggest?

I believe you agree they are inspired? How do we learn of God? From what source? Seems to me His word is foundational in our understanding of Who God is and what salvation is imho
Of course I agree the Scriptures are inspired. That's besides the point.

The point is that the Nicene Creed has been used as the core expression of beliefs for millenia, and not only do you think you can "correct" it, you put a secondary thing such as the inspiration of Scripture before belief in the Almighty God. If it were so important as to merit primary mention, why didn't the Nicene bishops put it in in the first place?

Melethiel

6th October 2007, 11:09 PM

EXACTLY Time2B... they actually ARGUE against this.
This has been my point. It's gotten so anal lytical, you can't even consider the bible a main source of teaching about God today.
:swoon: :swoon:

This is why Christians were leaving this place to find other CHRISTIAN forums that actually embraced Christianity for what it is.
Unreal. Welcome to the party kids

PS THESE SAME PEOPLE WANT TO 'LEAD' OTHERS TO THIS GOD... how? what do you use to teach them anything with - your opinions on what Jesus must of been like; even tho you can't count on the bible teachings about Him?
they rely on SALVATION from all the verses, but then reject that it's authoratative; I guess some live on a whim, I dunno.
No foundation of support.
Who is "they"?

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 11:17 PM

Excellent Job Nadiine!! T2BC I told you to watch for those. :P

But I think it's an excellent definition!
Yes you did tell me dude, and my spelling sux when ive got my mind on what im writing and not my typing lol. I had so many i corrected what i found and Nadiine here cleaned me up lol, then Miracle_Storm found where i needed more commas and stuff lol

Glad you like it dude :thumbsup:

united4Peace

6th October 2007, 11:18 PM

I dont know...
I for one dont take the scriptures literally...so does that mean Im not a real Christian?
I believe but in my own way...know what I mean?

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 11:18 PM

Who is "they"?
"they" is anyone who fits my description; trust me, they're all over the site.
I also removed that post to wait to hear your reply - so I'll wait.

Vambram

6th October 2007, 11:19 PM

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 11:21 PM

I dont know...
I for one dont take the scriptures literally...so does that mean Im not a real Christian?
I believe but in my own way...know what I mean?
and here we go folks. It's how I decide it... subjectivism at it's finest.
It doesn't matter that it says "that", I think it means "THIS", therefore that's truth to ME....

Nevermind what the writers meant when they wrote it and what it actually says; it's what I decide it means... interestingly enough, people don't treat autobiographies and other media like that; just the bible.
;)

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 11:27 PM

Although I completely and totally believe in the divine inspiration and inerrancy of the original manuscripts of Scripture, I also do agree it is not necessary, and even probably incorrect to seem to apparently place more importance (or primacy in order) of the doctrine of Inspiration as compared to the doctrine of GOD, and the Triune Godhead, a.k.a., the Trinity.
:groupray:
This was the original fight prior to 7/7/7 - imagine that, "christians" claiming we can ignore the BIBLE as truth about God.

Yet the same people use that very book TO KNOW ANYTHING THEY KNOW RIGHT NOW ABOUT THE BIBLE GOD AND CHRIST... it's good enough to base their "faith" on, yet not good enough to actually be the truth??
Anyone see the dychotomy there? :scratch: :confused: :tutu: :tutu:

NewGuy101

6th October 2007, 11:29 PM

Vambram

6th October 2007, 11:29 PM

This was the original fight prior to 7/7/7 - imagine that, "christians" claiming we can ignore the BIBLE as truth about God.

Yet the same people use that very book TO KNOW ANYTHING THEY KNOW RIGHT NOW ABOUT THE BIBLE GOD AND CHRIST... it's good enough to base their "faith" on, yet not good enough to actually be the truth??
Anyone see the dychotomy there? :scratch: :confused: :tutu: :tutu:
Even a blind man can see the dichotomy there.

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 11:36 PM

Nadiine the problem is that we don't know WHICH bible we are claiming as inerrent. I think the CC's, OO, EO and many protestants are going to have a field day with that one. Are we all going to agree that atleast the 66 books in the protestant Canon will be our reference point?
i would say thats a very good question

I personally find that favorable exactly as you worded it... i think we could incorporate that into the part about believing it to be infallable

Whats everyone else think?

Lisa0315

6th October 2007, 11:36 PM

The only thing I would add is that without love, we are nothing. Without love, we cannot keep the law of God.

Lisa

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 11:38 PM

Amen Lisa... i think that may make a perfect ending paragraph...

would anyone else sound in on this?

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 11:40 PM

Joykins

6th October 2007, 11:42 PM

A Christian, simply put, is a disciple of Jesus Christ:
Acts 11:26 (NIV) "The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
What is a disciple? One who believes and adheres to and follows a particular way or belief. Christianity has historicly and biblically worshiped Jesus as savior of mankind and the Lord God, God being a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are one.

1. Historically (Actually, I suggest you run the entire thing through spell check).

2. This identifies Jesus with the Trinity. However, it does not identify Jesus specifically as the Son. I think that would be important to include.

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 11:43 PM

i would say thats a very good question

I personally find that favorable exactly as you worded it... i think we could incorporate that into the part about believing it to be infallable

Whats everyone else think?
I'm not familiar with the details on which denom's use which versions - I would only use 'word of God' (as per whatever version or translation they adhere to)...
I'll let you guys run with that one. :wave:

Vambram

6th October 2007, 11:45 PM

Nadiine the problem is that we don't know WHICH bible we are claiming as inerrent. I think the CC's, OO, EO and many protestants are going to have a field day with that one. Are we all going to agree that atleast the 66 books in the protestant Canon will be our reference point?
According to the doctrines and beliefs concerning the Inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, this applies only to the original manuscripts which were originally written by the original human authors of the 66 books canonized, and accepted by first the Jesus, the Apostles, and the early Church.

Nadiine

6th October 2007, 11:49 PM

Of course I agree the Scriptures are inspired. That's besides the point.

The point is that the Nicene Creed has been used as the core expression of beliefs for millenia, and not only do you think you can "correct" it, you put a secondary thing such as the inspiration of Scripture before belief in the Almighty God. If it were so important as to merit primary mention, why didn't the Nicene bishops put it in in the first place?
BECUZ IN THEIR ERA, IT WAS ALREADY ACCEPTED AS INSPIRED.
This is exactly what my post spoke about earlier. Today's Postmodernism comes with 'subjective and relative' truth, so people are claiming that the bible means whatever they WANT it to mean today.

We just saw proof of this in another girls' post who claimed she doesn't take it literally (and how you can't is inconcievable - unless Jesus Himself didn't LITERALLY come here and LITERALLY die and LITERALLY shed any blood, or LITERALLY talk & walk with the disciples... or LITERALLY raise from the dead....) --
it's whatever she says it is.

BECUZ of that, today we have to cover these things that didn't exist centuries ago.
That's why.
He isn't rewriting it, he's trying to make a more comprehensive one -including it- and to remove loopholes & other problems we have today.

NewGuy101

6th October 2007, 11:50 PM

Time2BCounted

6th October 2007, 11:53 PM

According to the doctrines and beliefs concerning the Inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, this applies only to the original manuscripts which were originally written by the original human authors of the 66 books canonized, and accepted by first the Jesus, the Apostles, and the early Church.
i think we would all agree that the original manuscripts are inerrant and inspired. I believe its obvious too that many translations leave a lot to be desired here and there, so i'm in agreement with what youre leading to here i believe.

We can change or reword that if everyone thinks it needs tweaked. I think though leaving it vague though may be best to include the folks that would tend to think some translations too are inspired. i disagree with them but i dont see a need to possibly alienate them

Just my thought though whats everyone else think?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:01 AM

Ok lisa proposed something on love... i just included this as a last paragraph in the op following the nicene stipulations.

We can TWEAK it lol... Nadiine or New Guy or miracle someone check my spelling please lol. Also any suggested changes?

Yet, there is some variance amongst Christians in lesser matters which do not effect our salvation.
* Some, but not all add the filioque
* Some, but not all adhere to Baptism for the remission of sins.
* Some, but not all, believe Christ will reign for a literal 1000 years ending before the final judgment.
* Some, but not all will not ascribe to creeds, yet their beliefs are in many cases summarized by the Nicene Creed, but out of deference to Sola Scriptura, they will not agree to any creed created by man, However, these still represent the basic major core beliefs of those who subscribe to no creed.

Lastly and most importantly:

Christianity teaches that without love, we cannot be saved. If we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven. We should forgive men their trespasses against as in the same way we desire God have mercy on US. A follower of Christ doesnt doubt His word in anything, and Jesus said "Love thy neighbor as thyself". To clarify also, it should also be added here that Christians firmly believe in meekness, but not weakness. Boldness and truth do not equal lack of love, however a true christian would feed, and clothe and shelter his enemy, showing genuine compassion, in acts of nobility and kindness and love. Our prayer would be that you too believed for today is the fay of salvation, and no one is guaranteed a tomorrow.

as for mention of the 66 books

heres how i did that...

We believe (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15) in the inspiration of the entire 66 books of the bible and recognize it is the infallable Word of God as it was penned in the original manuscripts.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
We also believe in:
one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
We believe that this God is a trinity

Ok whats everyone think?

chaoschristian

7th October 2007, 12:03 AM

Where's Part 3?

Melethiel

7th October 2007, 12:04 AM

im not correcting the nicene creed, we are working on correcting the current definition of 'christianity' officially held by this board

Then why run the Nicene Creed into your additions?

BECUZ IN THEIR ERA, IT WAS ALREADY ACCEPTED AS INSPIRED.

Not universally, no it wasn't. Just as the Trinity was not accepted universally, or the deity of Christ, or the humanity of Christ. Yet the NC Creed covers the last few, but only hardly on the first (the phrase about the catholic church). I suggest you do some more research on the various heresies floating around.

Look, I agree that the Scriptures are inspired. I do not agree with placing inspiration of the Scriptures above belief in God.

And if you're going for a definition that at least the majority of the board would be able to accept, you're probably going to have to lose that phrase anyway, as it's not an essential.

Veritas_et_Puritas

7th October 2007, 12:08 AM

Ok whats everyone think?

Obviously the Catholics and the Orthodox will disagree with your "original manuscripts of the 66 books" comment. We believe that the "original" manuscripts numbered more than 66.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:12 AM

Then why run the Nicene Creed into your additions?

Thats a fair question. We are using it because its already there in the official faq definition. We are in the interest of expedience, working on the existing definition. To do otherwise would bog us down in discussing every point and who knows how many that we could still address.

LOL

In my own personal philosophy i try to stick with the 'kiss' guideline
K eep
I t
S imple
S tupid

No i say that to no one but myself ;)

Anyway we can ill afford to get bogged down if we are going to pass through an improved definition, so keeping this simple and fast and as painless as possible is the order of the day imho

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:13 AM

Obviously the Catholics and the Orthodox will disagree with your "original manuscripts of the 66 books" comment. We believe that the "original" manuscripts numbered more than 66.
yes, i understand that, but you can agree there are AT LEAST 66 books i believe. :)

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 12:21 AM

Then why run the Nicene Creed into your additions?

Not universally, no it wasn't. Just as the Trinity was not accepted universally, or the deity of Christ, or the humanity of Christ. Yet the NC Creed covers the last few, but only hardly on the first (the phrase about the catholic church). I suggest you do some more research on the various heresies floating around.

Look, I agree that the Scriptures are inspired. I do not agree with placing inspiration of the Scriptures above belief in God.

And if you're going for a definition that at least the majority of the board would be able to accept, you're probably going to have to lose that phrase anyway, as it's not an essential.
A born again believer will accept the Bible (whichever version) and or manuscripts as inspired by God (as a minimum).
To deny they hold truth about God is essentially falling on their own sword as to claiming scriptures they hold as truth, yet denying the bible is true.
:sorry: :tutu: :tutu:
Trust me, some here don't even agree it's inspired!

Also, my post had stated that a bible isn't mandatory TO salvation. If you don't have one, you can still know the Lord as He offers us different revelations of Himself by His Spirit.
And I ask then, is God giving different revelations of the scripture not being truthful or inspired to some & not others?
It's either TRUE or it's NOT.
If it's not, to keep from contradiction, they need to toss it in the trash and not read any of it for any insight, light or information about God; none of it trustworthy.

So no one is putting it "ABOVE" anything or anyone. It is simply stating that a Christian does adhere to the Bible as a source of teaching God's truths.
Again, if that's not so, then why are these people bothering to read it or using it to support what they do happen to agree with in it:
ie "God is LOVE"... how do they know that? Namely when visibly they can see God allowing so much death, suffering, pain and sadness to so many people.
They know what they know from their Bibles.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:25 AM

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:31 AM

I don't like the commentary and notes.

"worship Jesus as God."

Bad wording. As means "like".

"Yet, there is some variance amongst Christians in lesser matters which do not effect our salvation."

Wrong. Baptism brings us to salvation as a sacrament.

the second commentary notes, the ones where you tell me to stop playing theologian... LOOK at the present faq... Erwin had that put there ;)

Yet, there is some variance amongst Nicene Christians

Melethiel

7th October 2007, 12:33 AM

Thats a fair question. We are using it because its already there in the official faq definition. We are in the interest of expedience, working on the existing definition. To do otherwise would bog us down in discussing every point and who knows how many that we could still address.

LOL

In my own personal philosophy i try to stick with the 'kiss' guideline
K eep
I t
S imple
S tupid

No i say that to no one but myself ;)

Anyway we can ill afford to get bogged down if we are going to pass through an improved definition, so keeping this simple and fast and as painless as possible is the order of the day imho
Then make your additions distinct from the Creed. Unauthorized additions to the Creed is one of the things which has caused a lot of fighting, historically. And if we're all for keeping it simple, why does your version look so complicated?

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 12:35 AM

the second commentary notes, the ones where you tell me to stop playing theologian... LOOK at the present faq... Erwin had that put there ;)
pft! ^_^ roflol!

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:35 AM

the second commentary notes, the ones where you tell me to stop playing theologian... LOOK at the present faq... Erwin had that put there ;)

I wasn't referring to the note, I was referring to your commentary about them. They aren't in the FAQ.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:36 AM

pft! ^_^ roflol!

See above, it was in reference to his commentary about them.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:37 AM

Then make your additions distinct from the Creed. Unauthorized additions to the Creed is one of the things which has caused a lot of fighting, historically. And if we're all for keeping it simple, why does your version look so complicated?
i dont think it looks complicated imho

We did add a few lines to the opening paragraph because the original was very dry. We added a short paragraph about love at the end and a clarification on Christ and the trinity... for the sake of protecting those who may come here to actually honestly seek. To make sure they have lines of doctrine to stay within that will see they arent misled

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 12:39 AM

See above, it was in reference to his commentary about them.
See above http://www3.foru.ms/images/statusicon/wol_error.gif (http://foru.ms/t6226884)

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:39 AM

i dont think it looks complicated imho

We did add a few lines to the opening paragraph because the original was very dry. We added a short paragraph about love at the end and a clarification on Christ and the trinity... for the sake of protecting those who may come here to actually honestly seek. To make sure they have lines of doctrine to stay within that will see they arent misled

Clarifying it according to your own poorly picked words. What university did you do your graduate theological studies in? Where were you ordained? Since you are wanting to guide the faithful, after all...

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:40 AM

See above, it was in reference to his commentary about them.
You can accept a salvation by baptism, and no repentance or belief if you like, but i know enough scripture to go that route

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:41 AM

Clarifying it according to your own poorly picked words. What university did you do your graduate theological studies in? Where were you ordained? Since you are wanting to guide the faithful, after all...
no this is a team effort. You mean to insult all of us here. OUR poorly picked words

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:44 AM

You can accept a salvation by baptism, and no repentance or belief if you like, but i know enough scripture to go that route

So you speak for all of Christianity? Do you realize that denying the role of baptism in salvation contradicts the vast majority of modern and all historical Christianity?

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 12:44 AM

no this is a team effort. You mean to insult all of us here. OUR poorly picked words
Exactly.
There are people working this out via pm as we speak and we have yet to declare it finished...
So when you are trying to insult T2BC, you are speaking to more than you know :groupray:

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:45 AM

So you speak for all of Christianity? Do you realize that denying the role of baptism in salvation contradicts the vast majority of modern and all historical Christianity?
and i denied baptism where?

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:45 AM

no this is a team effort. You mean to insult all of us here. OUR poorly picked words

So be it- who ever is picking the words is doing a poor job of word choice.

The council of Nicea is far more qualified to speak about the faith- they don't need wannabe theologians twisting their words.

Crazy Liz

7th October 2007, 12:45 AM

CaDan

7th October 2007, 12:46 AM

and here we go folks. It's how I decide it... subjectivism at it's finest.
It doesn't matter that it says "that", I think it means "THIS", therefore that's truth to ME....

As opposed, of course, to the great heresy of tampering with the Symbol based upon your subjective opinion.

Nevermind what the writers meant when they wrote it and what it actually says; it's what I decide it means... interestingly enough, people don't treat autobiographies and other media like that; just the bible.
;)

This is simply nonsense. People always interpret other media and read meaning into it. It is only when we reach the Bible do some say one may not read it in that way.

Speaking of Bible . . . . What about Maccabees and Tobit?

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:46 AM

and i denied baptism where?

Ignoring the strawman:
In the commentary, you downplayed its role in salvation.

chaoschristian

7th October 2007, 12:48 AM

Seriously folks, where's Part 3?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:48 AM

So be it- who ever is picking the words is doing a poor job of word choice.

The council of Nicea is far more qualified to speak about the faith- they don't need wannabe theologians twisting their words.
We are all the wanna be theologians you are speaking to SA

We also recognize tactics brought to derail and divide.

It doesnt matter, if you want to do this the rest of us can just go to pm or we can put it in the main forum for the time being until we feel it is READY for debate ;)

Which would you like us to do?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:49 AM

Ignoring the strawman:
In the commentary, you downplayed its role in salvation.
where did I PERSONALLY downplay the role of baptism in anything... paste it in your next post to me please :)

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:49 AM

We are all the wanna be theologians you are speaking to SA

We also recognize tactics brought to derail and divide.

It doesnt matter, if you want to do this the rest of us can just go to pm or we can put it in the main forum for the time being until we feel it is READY for debate ;)

Which would you like us to do?

You are the one making definitions that seek to divide. Not me. Do you see me saying I want to 'guide' people by writing up doctrine?

This isn't to derail, this is discussing the very topic. You just can't stand criticism.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:50 AM

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 12:50 AM

Then make your additions distinct from the Creed. Unauthorized additions to the Creed is one of the things which has caused a lot of fighting, historically. And if we're all for keeping it simple, why does your version look so complicated?
I know why, but the rules keep me from spelling it out.

I'd also mention this, if WE can't possibly come up with something concrete as to what Christianity is, I HAVE TO WONDER HOW THE UNSAVED ARE SUPPOSED TO COME HERE TO BE LED TO OUR GOD.

which god? which Lord? which salvation? which baptism? which body of Christ? which resurrection? which bible? which pastor, which church?
If you guys can't figure it out, what do you hope to lead the lost TO???

And worse, why do they even need this headache when 1/3 or more of you claim they all get saved in the end anyways? If I was reading all this as a lost soul, and heard all the universal salvation talk going on, I'd laugh, walk out of this forum & figure God will save me anyways - this is a joke.
ISLAM is more unified than what I'm seeing.

But I know why this division exists, it's explained in the Bible. And the 2 sides cannot unite spiritually.

CaDan

7th October 2007, 12:50 AM

You can accept a salvation by baptism, and no repentance or belief if you like, but i know enough scripture to go that route

So this forum will take a position on pedobaptism--specifically that it is ineffective for the remission of sins.

Welcome to American Evangelical forums, folks! Altar calls and all that jazz.

Perhaps the learned body would care to add language condemning the veneration of images. After all, what did the Seventh Ecumenical Council know?

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 12:51 AM

Ignoring the strawman:
In the commentary, you downplayed its role in salvation.
Show me in Scripture where it says you MUST be baptised to be saved please.

Also if I remember correctly the op so far only says some believe this is not essential to Salvation...

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:51 AM

You are the one making definitions that seek to divide. Not me. Do you see me saying I want to 'guide' people by writing up doctrine?

This isn't to derail, this is discussing the very topic. You just can't stand criticism.
Jesus sought to Divide

Matthew 10:33-35

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

we are to bear the mind of Christ and follow him, thats what Christians do according to the present definition

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:52 AM

Show me in Scripture where it says you MUST be baptised to be saved please.

Also if I remember correctly the op so far only says some believe this is not essential to Salvation...

No, it doesn't. The commentary states plainly it isn't part of the salvation process.

I'm not going to get into a scripture argument with you. You've made up your mind.

Vambram

7th October 2007, 12:52 AM

I don't like the commentary and notes.

"worship Jesus as God."

Bad wording. As means "like".

"Yet, there is some variance amongst Christians in lesser matters which do not effect our salvation."

Wrong. Baptism brings us to salvation as a sacrament.

Please stop playing theologian, it doesn't suit you.

and I suggest that you do not attempt to be harsh towards those whom disagree in all sincerity with your own theology and doctrines. There are many whom do not believe that water baptism is a necessary in order to become born-again & receive the salvation & forgiveness of Sin.

:groupray:

Perhaps there is a slight hang-up and modification that can be made with the worshipping "Jesus as God" when compared to stating that Jesus IS God the Son, and the second Person of the Trinity.
Therefore, Time2BeCounted, and my fellow born-again believers in Christ, I think that is a good change to make. After all, by believing that Jesus Christ IS God the Son, and HE is just as Eternal as GOD the Father, Then therefore we have correctly and properly identified the deity of Christ.

:groupray:

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 12:53 AM

We are all the wanna be theologians you are speaking to SA

We also recognize tactics brought to derail and divide.

Which would you like us to do?
BEEEEEEEEEEENGO!
it didn't take long did it Time? ;) ;)

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:53 AM

Yet, there is some variance amongst Christians in lesser matters which do not effect our salvation.
* Some, but not all add the filioque
* Some, but not all adhere to Baptism for the remission of sins.
Yes the baptism part was Erwins too

and we all recognize baptism in itself saves no one without repentance and belief

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:55 AM

Jesus sought to Divide

Matthew 10:33-35

DUDE!

We also recognize tactics brought to derail and divide.

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 12:55 AM

So this forum will take a position on pedobaptism--specifically that it is ineffective for the remission of sins.
Absolutely not Cadan.
This is what is stated after the Creed.
* Some, but not all adhere to Baptism for the remission of sins.

This is to stop people from excluding some that are Christian..

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 12:55 AM

and I suggest that you do not attempt to be harsh towards those whom disagree in all sincerity with your own theology and doctrines. There are many whom do not believe that water baptism is a necessary in order to become born-again & receive the salvation & forgiveness of Sin.

:groupray:

Perhaps there is a slight hang-up and modification that can be made with the worshipping "Jesus as God" when compared to stating that Jesus IS God the Son, and the second Person of the Trinity.
Therefore, Time2BeCounted, and my fellow born-again believers in Christ, I think that is a good change to make. After all, by believing that Jesus Christ IS God the Son, and HE is just as Eternal as GOD the Father, Then therefore we have correctly and properly identified the deity of Christ.

:groupray:
:thumbsup:

CaDan

7th October 2007, 12:56 AM

BEEEEEEEEEEENGO!
it didn't take long did it Time? ;) ;)

Sorry, Bingo has been banned as being "too Romish."

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 12:56 AM

Yes the baptism part was Erwins too

and we all recognize baptism in itself saves no one without repentance and belief

No, that's your belief. One fabricated in the 16th century by a polygamist sect known for causing riots.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:56 AM

No, it doesn't. The commentary states plainly it isn't part of the salvation process.

I'm not going to get into a scripture argument with you. You've made up your mind.
The comment does not state it isnt part of the salvation process

Folks

We have someone here trying only to close or disrupt or derail

i am all for ignoring him and moving on in the main forum where the rest of us can discuss it for a while with no derailing debate. Pay him no mind... or we can keep it here i leave it up to you

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 12:57 AM

why did I KNOW CaDan would be sure to follow
this is almost funny to see the long list of people flying into this thread now.

Crazy Liz

7th October 2007, 12:57 AM

Where's Part 3?
Yeah, where?

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 12:57 AM

Sorry, Bingo has been banned as being "too Romish."
tell that to Gary Oldman in "The Professional"

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 12:59 AM

BEEEEEEEEEEENGO!
it didn't take long did it Time? ;) ;)
You know THAT Nadiine ;)

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 12:59 AM

We are all the wanna be theologians you are speaking to SA

We also recognize tactics brought to derail and divide.

It doesnt matter, if you want to do this the rest of us can just go to pm or we can put it in the main forum for the time being until we feel it is READY for debate ;)

Which would you like us to do?
personally if it's going to be like this I would like it to be taken to the main CC forum if there is going to be behavior like this until we have this sorted out in a way that will benefit all Christians on this forum.

Remember people
This is a proposed draft.
When finished as best can be and put to a poll you will be able to vote how you feel you should.

CaDan

7th October 2007, 12:59 AM

Absolutely not Cadan.
This is what is stated after the Creed.

Yes. My response was to the post, though--not the language currently in the FAQ. I've been around this place long enough to see the direction things are going and it is a direction where Catholic and Orthodox believers will be increasingly marginalized by aggressive American Evangelicals and their Reformed co-workers.

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 12:59 AM

The comment does not state it isnt part of the salvation process

Folks

We have someone here trying only to close or disrupt or derail

i am all for ignoring him and moving on in the main forum where the rest of us can discuss it for a while with no derailing debate. Pay him no mind... or we can keep it here i leave it up to you
You ought to do this thru private group PM's till it's closer to being what you want it to be.
then let them 'HAVE AT IT'

*gets out fork & knife - salivating* lol

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 01:00 AM

Yes. My response was to the post, though--not the language currently in the FAQ. I've been around this place long enough to see the direction things are going and it is a direction where Catholic and Orthodox believers will be increasingly marginalized by aggressive American Evangelicals and their Reformed co-workers.
ooooo, sounds SCARY~~

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:00 AM

The comment does not state it isnt part of the salvation process

Folks

We have someone here trying only to close or disrupt or derail

i am all for ignoring him and moving on in the main forum where the rest of us can discuss it for a while with no derailing debate. Pay him no mind... or we can keep it here i leave it up to you

You said it right here:
Yet, there is some variance amongst Christians in lesser matters which do not effect our salvation.
* Some, but not all add the filioque
* Some, but not all adhere to Baptism for the remission of sins.

Don't you think it is a little inappropriate as a member of staff to tell people to ignore a member because you got caught in a contradiction?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 01:02 AM

Come on Nadiine, VamBram, Miracle,

We can go to the main forum where we can hash this out between us publicly but no one can debate it ;)

CaDan

7th October 2007, 01:03 AM

tell that to Gary Oldman in "The Professional"

Gary Oldman has been temporarily e-banned for potentially papist views. The Review Committee will take up the case once sufficient SAs are gathered.

chaoschristian

7th October 2007, 01:04 AM

[editor mode on]Y'all have a section 1, but there's no section 2 (or 3). You might want to review your formatting. [editor mode off]

I understand that this is taking place over PM and what not, but that little old lonely 1 is out in the cold.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 01:05 AM

http://foru.ms/t6227031-hashin-it-out.html#post39519197

^ There ya go, those of you who are working with this, feel free to continue here... we will continue as we have where we can work in peace until it is ready to go

CaDan... dont you have a debate to concern yourself with? Where ya been with that?

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 01:06 AM

You said it right here:
Yet, there is some variance amongst Christians in lesser matters which do not effect our salvation.
* Some, but not all add the filioque
* Some, but not all adhere to Baptism for the remission of sins.

Don't you think it is a little inappropriate as a member of staff to tell people to ignore a member because you got caught in a contradiction?

AGAIN
I ask, show me where in SCRIPTURE you must be baptised in order to be saved.
There is a difference in obedience and SALVATION.

We are trying to look out for ALL Christians on this board.
BACK OFF!!

CaDan

7th October 2007, 01:06 AM

ooooo, sounds SCARY~~

Worse than scary. Are you familiar with the events preceding the Peace of Westphalia?

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 01:06 AM

Come on Nadiine, VamBram, Miracle,

We can go to the main forum where we can hash this out between us publicly but no one can debate it ;)
Mail me a link :wave:

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 01:07 AM

It's truly amazing to see these "forces" in division.

Quite telling!

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 01:07 AM

Worse than scary. Are you familiar with the events preceding the Peace of Westphalia?
I got one better, how about the antichrist

Crazy Liz

7th October 2007, 01:08 AM

I know why, but the rules keep me from spelling it out.
Yeah.

Why should we trust those who don't think Catholics are Christians to develop a site-wide definition of "Christian?"

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:09 AM

AGAIN
I ask, show me where in SCRIPTURE you must be baptised in order to be saved.
There is a difference in obedience and SALVATION.

We are trying to look out for ALL Christians on this board.
BACK OFF!!

If you are trying to get all Christians on board then why are you writing into the FAQ statements that deny many Christian's beliefs? Many Christians do believe baptism is necessary, so leave it neutral.

The commentary is the problem, not so much the notes.

Getting into an arguments about the necessity of baptism in salvation is unnecessary and pointless, as you've made up your mind and chosen your doctrines already.

Vambram

7th October 2007, 01:09 AM

You ought to do this thru private group PM's till it's closer to being what you want it to be.
then let them 'HAVE AT IT'

*gets out fork & knife - salivating* lol
*chuckles*

Okay, lets all be nice to one another. :)

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 01:12 AM

If you are trying to get all Christians on board then why are you writing into the FAQ statements that deny many Christian's beliefs? Many Christians do believe baptism is necessary, so leave it neutral.

The commentary is the problem, not so much the notes.

Getting into an arguments about the necessity of baptism in salvation is unnecessary and pointless, as you've made up your mind and chosen your doctrines already.
Its ok Miracle, come on to the other thread ;) if we have to we will go to pm... dont even report them ;)

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 01:13 AM

If you are trying to get all Christians on board then why are you writing into the FAQ statements that deny many Christian's beliefs? Many Christians do believe baptism is necessary, so leave it neutral.
Yes sir, and some do not believe it is necessary for Salvation, but a matter of public confession and obediance. So in this we are looking out for both.

The commentary is the problem, not so much the notes.

Getting into an arguments about the necessity of baptism in salvation is unnecessary and pointless, as you've made up your mind and chosen your doctrines already.
We have chose the BIBLE, sir.

BTW whoever just said some don't believe CATHOLICS are CHRISTIAN.
I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE AND I WILL NOT BACK ANYTHING THAT EXCLUDES MY CATHOLIC BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

CaDan

7th October 2007, 01:13 AM

I got one better, how about the antichrist

That was a pretty common personal invective at the time, thrown about by all sides. Lots of people died.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:13 AM

I thought you were ignoring me, T2BC?

You're quite the contradiction tonight.

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 01:15 AM

Its ok Miracle, come on to the other thread ;) if we have to we will go to pm... dont even report them ;)

Report them...I'm getting my fangs and claws ready!! ;)

Nope, leaving this thread. :wave:

Crazy Liz

7th October 2007, 01:15 AM

If you are trying to get all Christians on board then why are you writing into the FAQ statements that deny many Christian's beliefs? Many Christians do believe baptism is necessary, so leave it neutral.

The commentary is the problem, not so much the notes.

Getting into an arguments about the necessity of baptism in salvation is unnecessary and pointless, as you've made up your mind and chosen your doctrines already.
Yeah, and why did you move your discussion to a place that excludes most of us?

You don't think we're Christian?

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:15 AM

Yes sir, and some do not believe it is necessary for Salvation, but a matter of public confession and obediance. So in this we are looking out for both.

We have chose the BIBLE, sir.

BTW whoever just said some don't believe CATHOLICS are CHRISTIAN.
I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE AND I WILL NOT BACK ANYTHING THAT EXCLUDES MY CATHOLIC BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

I understand some people don't believe that, so the note is all that is needed. The commentary before the note plainly states that baptism is not necessary for salvation, it isn't neutral.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:16 AM

Yeah, and why did you move your discussion to a place that excludes most of us?

You don't think we're Christian?

Because they can't argue it. They have to hide and ignore people.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 01:17 AM

Yeah, and why did you move your discussion to a place that excludes most of us?

You don't think we're Christian?

That is very simple... its not ready to present to the board yet...THATS what we are woking on

CaDan

7th October 2007, 01:17 AM

CaDan... dont you have a debate to concern yourself with? Where ya been with that?

I've been judging real debates. The novices are quite cute and their antics are so refreshing.

In any event, I suggested parameters and you declined. Parameters would include such things as time limits. I will post when I please.

Miracle Storm

7th October 2007, 01:19 AM

Because they can't argue it. They have to hide and ignore people.
Bull! We will argue it when it is ready. :thumbsup:

chaoschristian

7th October 2007, 01:19 AM

Yeah, and why did you move your discussion to a place that excludes most of us?

You don't think we're Christian?

Because folks, whether we agree with what's being proposed or not, this is the CCF and we are their guests.

And while their rules allow us to debate here, we should provide our hosts with the modicum of respect due to them.

Hospitality is a relationship, and if we want to participate in this stage of the development of this proposal, then we should respect that relationship.

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 01:22 AM

Because they can't argue it. They have to hide and ignore people.
No, becuz you blew in like bulls in a china shop & dissrupted the entire thing.

At that point it's not even productive with a whole herd overtaking the thing.
It was obnoxious.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:22 AM

Bull! We will argue it when it is ready. :thumbsup:

And which Catholic is helping you with this?

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:23 AM

No, becuz you blew in like bulls in a china shop & dissrupted the entire thing.

At that point it's not even productive with a whole herd overtaking the thing.
It was obnoxious.

It's obnoxious because you realize your statements are full of errors and simply can't be defended.

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 01:24 AM

I've been judging real debates. The novices are quite cute and their antics are so refreshing.
oh muh gawwwwwwwwwwsh
:swoon: ^_^ :cool: (the novices)

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 01:26 AM

I've been judging real debates. The novices are quite cute and their antics are so refreshing.

In any event, I suggested parameters and you declined. Parameters would include such things as time limits. I will post when I please.
You dont think youll put up a real debate? I have more confidance in you than that CaDan

And i certainly did not decline, i told you i would meet you in the arena... would you like to see the pms? i still have them

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 01:27 AM

It's obnoxious because you realize your statements are full of errors and simply can't be defended.
oh really? IT'S A WORK IN PROGRESS. It's supposed to have flaws in it right now!
Do you think everything people write in a first draft is ready to take to the presses for publication?

It takes weeks and sometimes months before people come to their final draft.
I always love statements of insinuated defeatism like this. *collapse*

chaoschristian

7th October 2007, 01:29 AM

It's supposed to have flaws in it right now!

You might want to consider restating this.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:29 AM

./..

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 01:34 AM

http://foru.ms/t6227031-hashin-it-out.html

yesh

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 02:57 AM

Nadiine, PM and tell me what you really think of Catholics :)
Excuse me for speaking for my sister, but brother you cross the line with inflamitory implications, that could have ramifications as lible and defamation of character, flaming, and much more at this point imho.

And to do it with a smile as you did reminds me of When Jesus was identified with a kiss.

Not much class there AT all imho. I know this sister as one who loves people (including her brothers and sisters, she really cares) AND God with a passion that most people would do well to have.

Zippythepinhead

7th October 2007, 03:02 AM

There is a lot of information here, but I think it reflects a good crossection of Christian beliefs and denominational thought.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 03:36 AM

Excuse me for speaking for my sister, but brother you cross the line with inflamitory implications, that could have ramifications as lible and defamation of character, flaming, and much more at this point imho.

And to do it with a smile as you did reminds me of When Jesus was identified with a kiss.

Not much class there AT all imho. I know this sister as one who loves people (including her brothers and sisters, she really cares) AND God with a passion that most people would do well to have.

I didn't make any implications- she has made those herself.

As for linking me to Judas, shame on you.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 03:38 AM

I didn't make any implications- she has made those herself.

As for linking me to Judas, shame on you.
produce them
if not, a gentleman wouldnt make libleous statements, slurring a sister in Christ, i'll bear the shame for calling you on that any day. Show me quotes to back your implications.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 03:40 AM

Tell you what- I'll do that when you all show quotes of me not being conservative.

(I can back my statements up, btw)

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 03:57 AM

The definition in the OP is a definition of conservative/traditional Christians, not all Christians (especially since it's the conservative Christian forum), so I think that using it as a definition of all Christians is simply totally inaccurate, because not all Christianity is conservative or traditional. :)

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 03:58 AM

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 04:00 AM

The definition in the op is the biblical and historical definition of christianity touching on only the most important aspects
What you see as "biblical and historical" Christianity is commonly called conservative Christianity, but it's a subset of the whole Christianity.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:02 AM

What you see as "biblical and historical" Christianity is commonly called conservative Christianity, but it's a subset of the whole Christianity.
Are you opposed to the biblical accuracy of that definition or are you opposed to the historical accuracy?

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 04:09 AM

Are you opposed to the biblical accuracy of that definition or are you opposed to the historical accuracy?

I simply support factual accuracy, and the fact is that not all Christians in the world fit into that description in the OP.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:13 AM

I simply support factual accuracy, and the fact is that not all Christians in the world fit into that description in the OP.
No youre missing the question. I ask what color apples are and you want to tell me what color oranges are lol.

You are opposed to the accuracy of this definition. It is biblicly and historicly accurate. I am asking you which you are opposed to, historicly accuracy or biblical accuracy?

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 04:16 AM

No youre missing the question. I ask what color apples are and you want to tell me what color oranges are lol.

You are opposed to the accuracy of this definition. It is biblicly and historicly accurate. I am asking you which you are opposed to, historicly accuracy or biblical accuracy?
Since you're using an apple analogy, here's one from me...

"Biblical/historical/orthodox Christianity" is to "Christianity" the same as "red apple" is to "apple". The first one is a subset of the second one, that's why it needs additional adjectives to define it.

That's why the definition is biblically and historically accurate in defining most Christian groups, but it's not factually accurate in defining ALL Christians.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:23 AM

The definition in the op is the biblical and historical definition of christianity touching on only the most important aspects

Plus commentary from protestants.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:24 AM

Star
what are the bare requirements to be saved? Can you reject Christ and be saved?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:25 AM

So youre prejudiced against protestants SA?

We have catholics working on this too, are they not enough to offset our protestant stain?

They were good enough imho

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:25 AM

And what are the bare requirements to be saved? Can you reject Christ and be saved?

Can you define 'reject'?

I don't think we know what the 'bare requirements' are for being saved.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:26 AM

So youre prejudiced against protestants SA?

That's a load question.

We have catholics working on this too, are they not enough to offset our protestant stain?

They were good enough imho

Which Catholics? Which ones denied the necessity of baptism?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:26 AM

that is quite a comment lol

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:27 AM

that is quite a comment lol

I don't think so. When you say 'requirements' what you are actually saying are the limitations of God. You are playing with presumption.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:28 AM

Thats not a loaded question at all, you state that you are against commentary by protestants, it sounds like prejudice to me. But i do know that you dont represent the entire catholic church, in fact youll be representing very very little of it with that sort of deviciveness and prejudice. The catholic brethren i know also know love and working as a body

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:30 AM

Thats not a loaded question at all, you state that you are against commentary by protestants, it sounds like prejudice to me.

No, I didn't.

But i do know that you dont represent the entire catholic church, in fact youll be representing very very little of it with that sort of deviciveness and prejudice. The catholic brethren i know also know love and working as a body

I find that comment a bit ironic.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:30 AM

Whenever I have raised objections about the Catholic side I've been attacked. You are the ones being divisive.

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 04:32 AM

Star
what are the bare requirements to be saved? Can you reject Christ and be saved?
Why are you changing the topic? This is supposed to be a definition of a follower of Christ, not a definition of a "saved" person, unless you want the site to declare who is "saved" and who isn't.... and that would be even more wrong than an inaccurate definition of Christianity.

As for the requirements, I don't believe that a person needs to earn salvation, or that God is unable to save people who don't have specific religious beliefs. I don't even see people as "saved" and "unsaved", because people are too complex for black-and-white categories. I see salvation as a path to God and different people are individually progressing on that path, each person with their own pace.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:33 AM

A path to God or THE ONLY path to God?

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 04:34 AM

Yes its a definition of a follower of Christ so why are you hesitant to talk about what it takes to be saved?

That statements looks like this one:

"Yes, it's a definition of an apple, so why are you hesitant to talk about oranges?"

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:35 AM

Youve not raised objection from the catholic side, the catholic side is represented here ;)

Your objections have been to harrass and disrupt and derail imho

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:36 AM

A path to God or THE ONLY path to God?

There's only one path to God, but we don't know the limitation of the path, exactly.

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 04:36 AM

A path to God or THE ONLY path to God?
I believe there's one path to God, and all people, no matter what religious beliefs they have, are on that path... some of them are just closer to the goal (God) and some are further away. But what does it have to do with the topic?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:37 AM

Starlight

Salvation is A PATH or THE ONLY path is through Jesus, God the Son?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:37 AM

Then how do you know theres only one path? how far do you know the limitations? Maybe theres 2?

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:38 AM

Then how do you know theres only one path? how far do you know the limitations? Maybe theres 2?

Grace only comes from one source.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:38 AM

Star? So in other words one can reject Christ and still they will be eventually saved?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:38 AM

And you know this by what source SA?

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 04:40 AM

Star? So in other words one can reject Christ and still they will be eventually saved?
I've never seen anyone who rejects Christ, and even if someone does, I don't believe they will reject Christ eternally... so yes, I believe they will eventually reach God too.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:40 AM

And you know this by what source SA?

God.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:49 AM

Plus commentary from protestants.

I've never seen anyone who rejects Christ, and even if someone does, I don't believe they will reject Christ eternally... so yes, I believe they will eventually reach God too.

O i know LOTS of people that reject Christ, and if anyone ever gets out they are passing people who reject Him all day long. So you are saying a person could hear the gospel, reject it all their lives, and still be saved.

HOW THEN can you call them a follower of Christ?

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:49 AM

God.
Did God whisper this stuff in your ear or did He have someone write it down somewhere?

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:51 AM

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:53 AM

Did God whisper this stuff in your ear or did He have someone write it down somewhere?

He took human flesh and had twelve apostles go out and tell the world- whom He also filled with the Holy Spirit.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 04:54 AM

He took human flesh and had twelve apostles go out and tell the world- whom He also filled with the Holy Spirit.
So you believe in a biblical standard. What is that standard through which comes salvation? Where do you find these standards in your bible?

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 04:59 AM

So you believe in a biblical standard. What is that standard through which comes salvation? Where do you find these standards in your bible?

I believe in the bible as one source of infallible truth, yes.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 05:00 AM

Speaking of blblical standards everybody

Im going to bed so when we discuss this tomorrow, lets discuss it in the main forum so that we can discuss without the distraction and derailing, until we can get something hammered out that we can present.

God bless and may your discussions be fruitful. Any more tweaks needed ill take care of them when i see ya later :D

God bless

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 05:02 AM

What is that one infallable source SA? Is it Sola Scriptura?

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 05:09 AM

O i know LOTS of people that reject Christ, and if anyone ever gets out they are passing people who reject Him all day long. So you are saying a person could hear the gospel, reject it all their lives, and still be saved.

HOW THEN can you call them a follower of Christ?

I've never said that all people are followers of Christ. And what do you mean by "reject the gospel"? Not believing that Christianity is true doesn't mean that a person rejects Christ. If Christianity really is true, and some person doesn't believe that, then they aren't rejecting Christ, they are simply not aware of him. Being not aware of something doesn't mean rejecting it.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 05:14 AM

I've never said that all people are followers of Christ. And what do you mean by "reject the gospel"? Not believing that Christianity is true doesn't mean that a person rejects Christ. If Christianity really is true, and some person doesn't believe that, then they aren't rejecting Christ, they are simply not aware of him. Being not aware of something doesn't mean rejecting it.

So you can tell someone the gospel, they can flat out say no, get killed crossing the street, and he didnt really reject Christ and he will still be saved? Do you really believe this?

*Starlight*

7th October 2007, 05:16 AM

So you can tell someone the gospel, they can flat out say no, get killed crossing the street, and he didnt really reject Christ and he will still be saved? Do you really believe this?
Well, unless afterlife doesn't exist, when they finally find out for sure that Christ is true they will have a whole eternity to accept him.

SpiritualAntiseptic

7th October 2007, 05:16 AM

What is that one infallable source SA? Is it Sola Scriptura?

sola scriptura is a protestant doctrine.

The bible is one infallible source.

Time2BCounted

7th October 2007, 05:20 AM

sola scriptura is a protestant doctrine.

The bible is one infallible source.

So the bible is the one infallable source, we both agree there

You act as though however imho, you feel i dont know the way to salvation, and you implicate the salvation AND education of everyone working on this, catholic and protestant. If you believe the bible is the one infallable source then you can outline for me a very clear outline for salvation.

What must i do to be saved?

Nadiine

7th October 2007, 07:01 AM

Well, unless afterlife doesn't exist, when they finally find out for sure that Christ is true they will have a whole eternity to accept him.
If that were true, there's no REASON for salvation in THIS life... scripture teaches otherwise directly.

The judgment comes after death. Jesus warned people with hell several times and said people would die in their sins if