Proposal for definition in FAQ of "Christianity"

[Time2BCounted]

Sins punishment is death. Not temporary death. DEATH. And what saves us from that death? Jesus. God's love for us through Jesus Christ. And those who do not accept this love, will die. You either take it or you don't. The term "people choose hell" is there for a reason..
By death, what do you mean may i ask?

[Time2BCounted]

By death, what do you mean may i ask?
Let me just say this.

If by death you mean the second death, which is eternal punishment, i agree. I by death you mean they go to sleep and never wake again, the scripture disagrees. I wont assume which you mean but if you DO mean the second, please explain the differance in the word 'eternity' as it is used in life and punishment in this verse... or does eternal mean eternal in both cases?


Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[Ishida]

Hell, I just call it death where I would call "going to sleep", the "abyss of non existence".

[Nadiine]

If you look at the exchanges between God and Moses you will find that Moses wants to look at God, but God does not let him. This is not because God is angry or vengeful, but because God is so holy that anyone who looks at him will die immediately. God's holiness is so powerful that it destroys sin. Anyone with any sin within them who looks on God will be destroyed. This is what the Bible tells us.
Does it? WHERE???:scratch:
If you were correct, then SATAN himself would have no sin and would have repented ages ago; in fact, Satan's fall wouldn't have even happened. Satan would have had no initial pride in God's presence.

Where does the bible teach this exactly? I'd like a verse that His direct presence "melts away" sin.

Instead, I read this:
Leviticus 17:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=17&verse=11&version=49&context=verse)
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood,
and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls;
for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

I'd make another note, that if it were simply God's "presence" that melts/removes sin, THEN CHRIST NEVER HAD TO COME TO DIE FOR OUR SALVATION.
Jesus had to shed BLOOD. Why? It's His law that blood is the only atonement for the soul - life for life (thru bloodshed). "The penalty of sin is death".

Then we have Christ, who is God Incarnate. And what do we find? He looks at people and they are not destroyed, but something changes in them in that process.
Hmm, the pharisees didn't seem all too changed - nor the large Jewish crowds who tried to stone Him to death. Or the guards who scourged Him & later crucified Him.

& You may want to do more study as to why that is. He set aside His nature and took on a type of "veil": human flesh (Heb. 1-2). At the transfiguration, you see Christ's appearance temporarily manifesting. (some tie this in with the glow that Moses had after meeting with God in Exodus - he had to wear a veil to cover his face)
Matthew 17:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&verse=2&version=49&context=verse)
And He was transfigured before them;
and His face shone like the sun,
and His garments became as white as light.

It is my considered view that what changes in them is that when Christ looks on people, the love that he shows to them burns away the desire to sin within that person, and they are given instead a desire to please him. He is not interested in sin, or punishment.
He said He came to SAVE - His mission was to save (atone for sin by His blood - which is the only blood that literally removes sin) not judge sin yet. He is JUDGE, and will judge sin but His first coming was to save and usher in Grace - bringing in the Gentiles for salvation.
Rom. 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Hebrews 10:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&verse=4&version=49&context=verse)
For it is impossible for the blood of
bulls and goats to take away sins.

by fulfilling the Jewish law (thereby becoming the perfect "man") then dying as the sinless sacrifice; the only "man" who fully obeyed the law to be sinless IN OUR STEAD, Christ has then completed His mission of atonement (to save) all who would believe in Him (thru FAITH & subsequent repentance)

Christ IS very interested in sin and punishment which you see in other chapters such as Revelation 19. He's coming back IN WRATH. His next visit will be to take wrath out on an unrepenting world and judge.
Hebrews 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=1&verse=13&version=49&context=verse)
But to which of the angels has He ever said,
" SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE
YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"?

Sin is not eternal. It is destroyed by God looking on it, in the same way as the water in a puddle is evaporated by the noonday sun.
Hebrews 10:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&verse=4&version=49&context=verse)
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls
and goats to take away sins.

Again, Satan nor his demons would have sin if this was correct - they've been in God's direct presence in the literal sense.
Sin is not removed (literally) until Christ's (who is GOD) perfect blood covers it and thereby removes it. Animal blood merely caused God to 'overlook/pass by' the iniquity.

This is why, when we stand before God at the last day, he will see only the image of his son reflected in us, and our sin will be forgotten, not just by him, but by us as well.
Wrong, the bible tells you why BELIEVERS IN YHWY ONLY have their sins cleansed - Christ's blood covers them.
"for whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life"
John 12:46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=46&version=49&context=verse)
"I have come as Light into the world,
so that everyone who believes in Me
will not remain in darkness.

You're going on and on with your premise, but you need scripture to support it first. Further elaboration of the same unproven point doesn't make it true.

If anyone doubts that this is true, look for the pale reflection of this in your own children. Which of us, gazing in wonder at our sleeping children, remember any act of rebellion or naughtiness that they may have done, with any anger whatever? Are we not much more likely to pity their innocence and youth, and forgive them everything, in the knowledge that life is hard, and innocence is short?
This is nothing more than human reasoning being ascribed onto God. (the usual mistake - WE see something our way, therefore GOD must see it the same way we do)

Let's not forget that it's God above who allows these same innocent children to starve to death, get horrible debilitating diseases, be mentally retarded, to be crippled or maimed, be kidnapped, brutally molested/raped and murdered, sold into prostitution, be beaten and abused by parents for years on end.... verbally & emotionally abused and more.

Would YOU allow these these attrocities to afflict innocent little children? None of us would I would suspect. Therefore, we cannot judge God by our human reasoning.

Further, one isn't "innocent" past the age of accountablity - when we "KNOW" we're doing wrong and do it anyway and when we KNOW God exists & have heard the gospel and still continue to turn our back on the one who Died to Save us from condemnation, innocense is gone.
Here's what Jesus said:
John 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=19&version=49&context=verse)
"This is the judgment [condemnation],
that the Light has come into the world,
and men loved the darkness
rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

It's lovely & all that you have all these cozy esoteric thoughts about God & how He operates - but it's simply not biblical, it's your private speculation and opinion, and frankly, I find verses that directly contradict it in many areas.

This is the account of Jesus' actual return from
Rev. 19:
The Coming of Christ

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

[Time2BCounted]

Hell, I just call it death where I would call "going to sleep", the "abyss of non existence".
Then please explain the differance in the word 'eternity' as it is used in life and punishment in this verse... or does eternal mean eternal in both cases?


Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[*Starlight*]

Are you saying Jesus didnt have to resist sin?

...and then tell me how Adam was imperfect before the fall too after you answer this one lol

Adam was imperfect because he wasn't able to resist sin. Do you think that God eventually won't be able to resist sin as well?

[Time2BCounted]

Adam was imperfect because he wasn't able to resist sin. Do you think that God eventually won't be able to resist sin as well?
So Adam was imperfect before sin in your opinion. You dont think he had the ability to resist? Why then does God find fault with Adam if he gave him no resistance to sin? What command does God give that we cant keep? Will we be perfect in the afterlife? Was Christ perfect?

[*Starlight*]

So Adam was imperfect before sin in your opinion. You dont think he had the ability to resist? Why then does God find fault with Adam if he gave him no resistance to sin? What command does God give that we cant keep? Will we be perfect in the afterlife? Was Christ perfect?
Wow, so many weird questions, and I guess I can't give any definite answers to them. But yes, it seems to me that Adam was imperfect before sin. Otherwise it would create some logical inaccuracies, if Adam was perfect (just like God is) and it didn't stop him from sinning, then what stops God from sinning?

[Time2BCounted]

Wow, so many weird questions, and I guess I can't give any definite answers to them. But yes, it seems to me that Adam was imperfect before sin. Otherwise it would create some logical inaccuracies, if Adam was perfect (just like God is) and it didn't stop him from sinning, then what stops God from sinning?
Well again then Star youre offering only unsubstantiated opinion and theory which flies in the face of scripture. Sorry, that doesnt do it. There are 6 billion opinions and then theres God's word.

[*Starlight*]

Well again then Star youre offering only unsubstantiated opinion and theory which flies in the face of scripture. Sorry, that doesnt do it. There are 6 billion opinions and then theres God's word.
:doh:

How do you explain that logical inaccuracy then?

[PreachersWife2004]

:doh:

How do you explain that logical inaccuracy then?

It's only illogical in your head.

Sorry, but not everything about God can be comprehended by our little itty bitty minds. If it could, our heads would probably explode.

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by Time2BCounted http://www3.foru.ms/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=39722083#post39722083)
Well again then Star youre offering only unsubstantiated opinion and theory which flies in the face of scripture. Sorry, that doesnt do it. There are 6 billion opinions and then theres God's word.

yes :thumbsup: - and I always notice that MANS OPINIONS always counter God's word where all the negatives are concerned and where God's word actually infringes on what THEY want to do.
People never seem to go against the GOODIES they get in the bible - oh the love & blessings & eternal life are just wonderful:holy: .. but those negative parts sure get changed, removed & twisted around to suit our lifestyles and allow us to do what we want.
How convenient for us! :idea: :clap:

Peter teaches that manipulation of God's word to suit ourselves doesn't make it TRUTH:

2 Peter 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&verse=16&version=49&context=verse)
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,
in which are some things hard to understand,
which the untaught and unstable distort [twist],
as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

[Nadiine]

It's only illogical in your head.

Sorry, but not everything about God can be comprehended by our little itty bitty minds. If it could, our heads would probably explode.
:amen:
Isaiah 55:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=55&verse=9&version=49&context=verse)
8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.

9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

[*Starlight*]

It's only illogical in your head.

Sorry, but not everything about God can be comprehended by our little itty bitty minds. If it could, our heads would probably explode.

Well, I disagree with you then, if you don't have any logical arguments.

[PreachersWife2004]

Well, I disagree with you then, if you don't have any logical arguments.

Um, you're putting words into my mouth then.

No one ever said we didn't have logical arguments.

But not everything about God is logical.

Some people cannot comprehend that, and try to fit God into their own ideology. They assume that because THEY cannot fathom it, it cannot possibly be. They can't imagine spending an eternity in hell, so hell must not exist.

Some go as far as to say "I can't imagine a God that would do this or that, so I don't believe in God".

All because our puny minds aren't able to comprehend what He has shown us to be true.

[*Starlight*]

Um, you're putting words into my mouth then.

No one ever said we didn't have logical arguments.

But not everything about God is logical.

Some people cannot comprehend that, and try to fit God into their own ideology. They assume that because THEY cannot fathom it, it cannot possibly be. They can't imagine spending an eternity in hell, so hell must not exist.

Some go as far as to say "I can't imagine a God that would do this or that, so I don't believe in God".

All because our puny minds aren't able to comprehend what He has shown us to be true.
Well, I don't believe in the idea that God is evil.

[Nadiine]

Um, you're putting words into my mouth then.

No one ever said we didn't have logical arguments.

But not everything about God is logical.

Some people cannot comprehend that, and try to fit God into their own ideology. They assume that because THEY cannot fathom it, it cannot possibly be. They can't imagine spending an eternity in hell, so hell must not exist.

Some go as far as to say "I can't imagine a God that would do this or that, so I don't believe in God".

All because our puny minds aren't able to comprehend what He has shown us to be true.
Yes, and this is called "bringing God DOWN to our level of understanding" as well as "putting God in your own little box" to be who you WANT Him to be, not what He describes Himself as.

I always ask people this: if you refuse to believe that this God is like the bible states He is, has done or will do what the bible states, DO YOU LOVE THAT GOD? Or do you love the god that you've created thru your own ideology & human doctrines according to your preferences?

I call alot of this stuff idolatry - worshipping a god people create and rejecting the one the Bible clearly describes. That isn't love of God it's rejection, isn't it? :scratch:

[Catherineanne]

Are you implying that we will unmurder everyone that was murdered and Christ will be uncrucified? Or will it be forever true that those who were murdered were murdered and will it always be true that Christ was crucified and mocked and tempted?

I am not implying anything. Neither am I accepting the words you are trying to put in my mouth. They are your words, and you can keep them.

I have said what I have said. Nothing more, nothing less. The words are far from perfect, but I would not exchange them for your interpretation of them, because your interpretation is flawed. You are not reading and considering what I am saying; you are only defending.

[Catherineanne]

Then you are providing unsubstantiated theory that holds no water

If you prefer to believe that, then go ahead.:cool:

I have said nothing that is not substantiated in the Bible. You cannot prove that Adam was created perfect, and yet you say it is unsubstantiated that he was created good but not perfect, when that is exactly what Scripture says.

In other words, you are entitled to your opinion, but the evidence is against you.

[Catherineanne]

Where does the bible teach this exactly? I'd like a verse that His direct presence "melts away" sin.


Are you asking me to play Bible Poker?

My proof is Christ. Every word, every gesture, every action. My text is the whole of the Holy Bible; Genesis 1 v 1 to Revelation 22 v 21 inclusive.

Summarised in the following verse:

John 1 v 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world."

[Catherineanne]

But not everything about God is logical.


I am not sure I would agree with this. To me it is man who is illogical, while God is all pure reason and love, with nothing illogical about him. I see nothiing illogical in Christ.

Each to their own, however. :wave:

[Catherineanne]

Peter teaches that manipulation of God's word to suit ourselves doesn't make it TRUTH:

2 Peter 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&verse=16&version=49&context=verse)
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,
in which are some things hard to understand,
which the untaught and unstable distort [twist],

as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.




That verse is a two edged sword.

^_^ ^_^ ^_^

[Miracle Storm]

So, when there's a person who for some reason went to hell after death, and there he realized that he wants to turn to God... with your beliefs, we're left with 2 choices:

1. God isn't all-powerful and isn't able to save that person from hell anymore

2. God is evil and wants the person to suffer forever

Or are there more possibilities?

God is all powerful, but He is never changing. He will not go against His own word. He is not a man that he should lie.
He gave us our escape. Handed it to us on a silver platter.
Now is the time.
You can choose to reject Christ or accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

Who wouldn't want out of hell? Who wouldn't regret not accepting Christ while they are in hell's fire?

God is NOT evil, but He is just. God wants no man to go to hell, but He has given us free will.
If someone is in hell, they rejected Christ.
Why is that bad enough to go to hell? Cause your going to hell, the minute you sin. 'ALL FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD' Everyone is evil. Believe it or not.

We are only cleansed and made holy through the blood of Christ that cleanses us of our sin. This righteousness is by faith so that NO man can boast.

This post doesn't really address what I said in any way... :holy:

By the way, the idea of eternal hell isn't just, it's the opposite of justice.
Please tell me what part of your post I did not address...

[Catherineanne]

Well, I don't believe in the idea that God is evil.

God is most certainly not evil. There is nothing he does which is evil, or has an evil motive.

God is love, mercy and compassion, as revealed in Christ. This is not soppy teddy bear kind of love but the painful, bloody, heartbreakingly devastating kind of love that kept him on the cross while almost all his friends deserted him. This is what is demanded of us, if we are to be counted among his followers.

[JimfromOhio]

It's only illogical in your head.

Sorry, but not everything about God can be comprehended by our little itty bitty minds. If it could, our heads would probably explode.

I agree.....No matter how much knowledge we have in the Mystery of God, we will never fully comprehend God until we die. In Isaiah 55:8-9 God says, "My thoughts are completely different from yours, and my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." Our minds could never fathom the awesomeness of God. He is described in the Bible as One with no beginning and no ending, the Alpha and Omega. God is omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience, meaning that He has unlimited powers, He is universally present, and knows all things. He is the Author, Creator and Sustainer of all things--animate and inanimate, He made the heaven and the earth by His great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for Him (Jeremiah 32:17). He counts the number of the stars; He calls them all by name. Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:4-5). God is above all gods in heaven above or earth beneath. Before Him, the nations are as a drop of a bucket and are counted as the small dust of the balance (Isaiah 40:15).

In my position, God will not hold me responsible for my lack of understanding in the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all."

This is where I am convicted by the Holy Spirit to have FAITH in Him without reasoning. Salvation spiritually speaking faith is not a "choice" but rather a free gift of God's grace created by the power of the Holy Spirit working through the means of grace. Christian faith is not optimism because it breeds false hope. I believe a Christian should not be either pessimistic or optimistic. It is a life of FAITH, not of intellect and reason, but a life of knowing Who God is. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1, 2

[PreachersWife2004]

Well, I don't believe in the idea that God is evil.

That's because God isn't evil.

Is the judicial system evil for putting murderers to death? Rapists in jail?

[PreachersWife2004]

I am not sure I would agree with this. To me it is man who is illogical, while God is all pure reason and love, with nothing illogical about him. I see nothiing illogical in Christ.

Each to their own, however. :wave:

There's lots of things about God that are illogical in human terms.

How does one logically explain the trinity? (Which is a HUGE reason there are many out there who refuse to believe in the concept).

How does one logically explain Lazarus being raised from the dead after four days?

How does one logically explain the creation of the earth in six days?


To many of us Christians we don't view it as illogical because we BELIEVE it.

Philippians 4:7


7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.


:hug:

[PreachersWife2004]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JimfromOhio again.

Maybe Lee will change this... ;)

[JimfromOhio]

Well, I don't believe in the idea that God is evil.

God is not evil but we are corrupted that God hates sin. With Christ in our hearts, we are clean. In God's grace through Jesus Christ, I am free from bondage of sin. The Book of Hebrews explains that Jesus is the mediator, the executor, of The New Covenant (The New Testament).

Most religion organizations teaches that we take credit for almost everything we achieve, even our salvation. That is why the Apostle Paul wrote, “Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.” Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience. As a Christian, I still can have sinful desires, foolish desires, proud desires and at the same time, have godly desires. If we didn't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then we should be concerned whether we are truly saved or not. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." The condition of the heart determines how receptive a person is to the gospel.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

I do ENJOY the world that GOD has created but I do not enjoy the world that Satan has corrupted.

[*Starlight*]

Please tell me what part of your post I did not address...
Well, I gave two possibilities which to me are the only logical possibilities based on what you've said before, and asked you if you agree with any of these two, or is there a third one... but your post didn't really answer my question.

What, according to you, happens when a person is in hell and honestly decides to turn to God?

God is most certainly not evil. There is nothing he does which is evil, or has an evil motive.

God is love, mercy and compassion, as revealed in Christ. This is not soppy teddy bear kind of love but the painful, bloody, heartbreakingly devastating kind of love that kept him on the cross while almost all his friends deserted him. This is what is demanded of us, if we are to be counted among his followers.
Well, I agree :)

[Catherineanne]

There's lots of things about God that are illogical in human terms.

How does one logically explain the trinity? (Which is a HUGE reason there are many out there who refuse to believe in the concept).

How does one logically explain Lazarus being raised from the dead after four days?

How does one logically explain the creation of the earth in six days?

:hug:

None of those prove that God is illogical. They only prove the limits of human understanding.

I personally do not believe that six days to God is the same as six days to us (not surprisingly because the Bible tells us this is the case), but that is another subject.

:hug:

[*Starlight*]

That's because God isn't evil.

Is the judicial system evil for putting murderers to death? Rapists in jail?
No, but it would be evil if it put people to prison for life just because they stole a candy from a shop. The idea of infinite punishment is the same, except that it's infinitely worse. A just punishment must fit the crime.

[PreachersWife2004]

No, but it would be evil if it put people to prison for life just because they stole a candy from a shop. The idea of infinite punishment is the same, except that it's infinitely worse. A just punishment must fit the crime.

The bible states pretty clearly that the wages of sin is death.

[*Starlight*]

The bible states pretty clearly that the wages of sin is death.
Some of the people who wrote the Bible liked having death as a punishment for many things... And anyway, death and eternal hell are two mutually exclusive things.

[Catherineanne]

What, according to you, happens when a person is in hell and honestly decides to turn to God?



Hell on earth or hell in eternity? :)

In the former, the person ends up in the palm of God's hand. And the latter does not comprise a lake of fire and eternal damnation. Such a hell is incompatible with God's mercy.

Hell in eternity is separation from God, and is a choice made by the person. If that person in eternal separation decides that they want to enter eternity with God, then I see no reason why he should refuse them. But this is my own view; we do not have enough evidence about how eternity is organised to say for sure one way or another. I suspect that, as on earth, separation from God is never God's choice, but that he respects anyone who prefers to live in this way, whether here or hereafter.

The only people who are excluded from eternity with God will be those who cannot see that it is there, and who therefore exclude themselves.

[JimfromOhio]

None of those prove that God is illogical. They only prove the limits of human understanding.

I personally do not believe that six days to God is the same as six days to us (not surprisingly because the Bible tells us this is the case), but that is another subject.

:hug:

The comparison of time with God. A thousand years is like yesterday. It is like one day. One day is as a thousand years. God's perspective on time is not the same as ours. The Bible does not say one day is a thousand years to the Lord or a thousand years is one day. It is just a comparison point. For example, thes comparison of time when we consider an adult's perspective and a child's perspective. The most well-known example is when a family travel, "Are we there yet?" God is an adult while we are His children and people are saying "Did God created the World in 6 days?". 2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Word of God says He created in 6 days, so my faith is to follow what He said. Just as Jesus was resurrected on the third day, so my faith is to follow what the Word of God says.

God's time is different than our time, the main point is that God said He created in 6 days so we should believe what HE SAID and not debate about it. While I believe in literal at the same time the Bible did mention that God's time is not the same as our time. All I do at this point is believe what He said whether it is literal or someone's interpration of God's time, God did it in 6 days no matter how we look at it.

[Catherineanne]

The bible states pretty clearly that the wages of sin is death.

Lol!! You and I both know that whether it states it or not, we are both sinners but we are neither of us going to die.

Therefore, the Bible can state what it likes, but sometimes one verse is not the whole story. :D

[JimfromOhio]

No, but it would be evil if it put people to prison for life just because they stole a candy from a shop. The idea of infinite punishment is the same, except that it's infinitely worse. A just punishment must fit the crime.

Sin is part of our punishment that we inherited from Adam. Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

[Catherineanne]

The word of God says He created in 6 days, so my faith is to follow what He said. Just as Jesus was resurrected on the third day, so my faith is to follow what the word of God says.

You are more than welcome to follow your faith in a way which is meaningful to you.

However, the Bible does not anywhere tell me that I have to believe every single word it says as if it were absolute truth, and so I do not. ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

Only God is absolute Truth, and the Bible is not God.

[JimfromOhio]

Some of the people who wrote the Bible liked having death as a punishment for many things... And anyway, death and eternal hell are two mutually exclusive things.

The Holy Spirit who is the Author of the Bible. Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. All translations (i.e. KJV, RSV, NIV and etc) themselves are not inspired. Only the originals are inspired. We are to trust the Holy Spirit more than we trust the translations simply because the Holy Spirit have been with the translators while they were translating.

The Bible is NOT for everyone. Its not the Scriptures that are corrupted. Its a man's heart that is corrupted. Christians knows that not everyone is willing to be a Christian. If a person don't want to read the Bible, then that person don't have to read the Bible. We have that freedom. I can have GREAT knowledge but if I don't have spiritual wisdom, my knowledge is worthless. Someone has said "The wisest person in the world is the person who knows the most about God and place the Bible as the most important book in the world."

[Miracle Storm]

Well, I gave two possibilities which to me are the only logical possibilities based on what you've said before, and asked you if you agree with any of these two, or is there a third one... but your post didn't really answer my question.

What, according to you, happens when a person is in hell and honestly decides to turn to God?



Yes sir I did answer your question, which is of course other.
"Now is the time" That should have been enough.

You cannot turn to God once you are in hell.
Shoot the minute you got in hell you be screaming out to God and know everything you'd ever done and be in extreme regret. Hell is without God's presence, I do know that much.
Here on earth, even with all the evil, God's presence is still here, even with the most evil of men. In hell He will not be there, that is true darkness.

All we need do is look at Lazarus and the rich man

Luke 16:
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-25636c)] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

[*Starlight*]

Hell on earth or hell in eternity? :)

In the former, the person ends up in the palm of God's hand. And the latter does not comprise a lake of fire and eternal damnation. Such a hell is incompatible with God's mercy.

Hell in eternity is separation from God, and is a choice made by the person. If that person in eternal separation decides that they want to enter eternity with God, then I see no reason why he should refuse them. But this is my own view; we do not have enough evidence about how eternity is organised to say for sure one way or another. I suspect that, as on earth, separation from God is never God's choice, but that he respects anyone who prefers to live in this way, whether here or hereafter.

The only people who are excluded from eternity with God will be those who cannot see that it is there, and who therefore exclude themselves.
That's an interesting answer, I like it :hug: :)

[*Starlight*]

Yes sir I did answer your question, which is of course other.
"Now is the time" That should have been enough.

You cannot turn to God once you are in hell.
Shoot the minute you got in hell you be screaming out to God and know everything you'd ever done and be in extreme regret. Hell is without God's presence, I do know that much.
It sounds like the second option I presented... if a person didn't turn to God in their life, then God wants them to suffer forever even if they repent and want to turn to God. That makes God evil.

[ladybug1980]

As far as sin inherited from Adam (which I am not disputing), I have a question. It isn't the most pleasing question, but I'm a rather new Christian and I have been trying to come up with an explanation but I just can't.

If God created man to have free will (which I also am not disputing), and humans have the propensity to choose evil over good, then when it comes to that free will, does that mean that God created humans to have the propensity to choose evil, since he created those humans with free will? It frustrates me that God would create someone who He knew would be more likely to choose evil, then get angry at the sinner because the sinner committed a sin. If God doesn't want to be angry at sinners, why would he create people who tend to choose evil over good, if left to themselves? I mean, God is all-knowing. Why would he create someone who he knew would sin, and then get angry about it? If he didn't create anyone who he knew would sin, God would spare himself so much anger!

I am only trying to rationalize this.

[JimfromOhio]

You are more than welcome to follow your faith in a way which is meaningful to you.

However, the Bible does not anywhere tell me that I have to believe every single word it says as if it were absolute truth, and so I do not. ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

Only God is absolute Truth, and the Bible is not God.

Sure anyone can believe God without believing the Bible. That's between God and each creature. Whoever is not convicted to believe that the Holy Spirit gives will have a different path that is created by a man's teachings. :D

I love C.S. Lewis' quote "You never know how much you really believe anything until truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you." Faith in Jesus is not commitment to your church or denomination or the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In order to "revere" the Word of God (Bible), you submit to the Holy Spirit who is the Author of the Bible. We are to Honor the Word (not the Bible). Studying the scriptures requires the Holy Spirit which is inward, not outward. The Holy Spirit is within us believers, Christ dwells in our hearts, and "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) is the burning core of the Christian faith.

[Miracle Storm]

It sounds like the second option I presented... if a person didn't turn to God in their life, then God wants them to suffer forever even if they repent and want to turn to God. That makes God evil.

That makes you blasphemous!!
People have their choice in this life.

AGAIN
Luke 16:
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-25636c)] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Maybe if you read more of the Word you would be more discerning in these matters, INSTEAD of calling my LORD and SAVIOR "evil"!!!!

[JimfromOhio]

It sounds like the second option I presented... if a person didn't turn to God in their life, then God wants them to suffer forever even if they repent and want to turn to God. That makes God evil.

Andrew Murray have said "Self is the root, the branches, the tree, of all the evil of our fallen state". 1st John 1:5 says: "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." Evil became a reality only when creatures are born in sin. "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." [2 Thessalonians 2:10]

When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience. Becoming a disciple, following Jesus Christ requires personal cost, giving up your selfish "me" and become like Christ. are so many who will proclaim to be a Christian but only few are really Christians. There are millions of professing Christians who "think" they have been justified, who think their sins are forgiven and that they are on their way to heaven, who show no evidence of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Many Christians are unthinkably horrified when a real sinner is suddenly discovered among the righteous. So we remain alone with our sin, living in lies and hypocrisy.

[Miracle Storm]

As far as sin inherited from Adam (which I am not disputing), I have a question. It isn't the most pleasing question, but I'm a rather new Christian and I have been trying to come up with an explanation but I just can't.

If God created man to have free will (which I also am not disputing), and humans have the propensity to choose evil over good, then when it comes to that free will, does that mean that God created humans to have the propensity to choose evil, since he created those humans with free will? It frustrates me that God would create someone who He knew would be more likely to choose evil, then get angry at the sinner because the sinner committed a sin. If God doesn't want to be angry at sinners, why would he create people who tend to choose evil over good, if left to themselves? I mean, God is all-knowing. Why would he create someone who he knew would sin, and then get angry about it? If he didn't create anyone who he knew would sin, God would spare himself so much anger!

I am only trying to rationalize this.
Big questions for a new Christian.
Maybe better for the Theology section.

Would you rather be a robot or be able to do what you want?
God knew how He would show His love to us and how He would reach out His hand delivering us.

You have to also imagine God does not live in the same time as us. Hard to imagine, but it is true. Time does not exist in the same way for Him as it does for us.

For Him, it is finished...

Other Theologians would be able to express their answere is a way that you would understand better.
I'm probably more good for confusing you in this matter..:sorry:

You will be in my prayers :hug:

[*Starlight*]

First of all, I think I made it clear that I don't believe that God is evil... so it doesn't make me blasphemous. :)

And self isn't evil, it's just that there's both good and evil within every person.

[Joykins]

As far as sin inherited from Adam (which I am not disputing), I have a question. It isn't the most pleasing question, but I'm a rather new Christian and I have been trying to come up with an explanation but I just can't.

If God created man to have free will (which I also am not disputing), and humans have the propensity to choose evil over good, then when it comes to that free will, does that mean that God created humans to have the propensity to choose evil, since he created those humans with free will? It frustrates me that God would create someone who He knew would be more likely to choose evil, then get angry at the sinner because the sinner committed a sin. If God doesn't want to be angry at sinners, why would he create people who tend to choose evil over good, if left to themselves? I mean, God is all-knowing. Why would he create someone who he knew would sin, and then get angry about it? If he didn't create anyone who he knew would sin, God would spare himself so much anger!

I am only trying to rationalize this.

God allows us to choose evil, yes. He also allow us to choose great good--he allows us, in other words, to make our own choices for good or evil. When God made us in his own image he knew he was taking a risk.

God does have wrath for persistent sinners who always choose evil.

But for all, God offers forgiveness of sins. This is the gospel. We have only to ask for him to forgive our sins and start us on a new path. This is a daily walk (confession and repentance and forgiveness and doing better the next time) as well as a one-time experience (starting the walk).

[Miracle Storm]

First of all, I think I made it clear that I don't believe that God is evil... so it doesn't make me blasphemous. :)

And self isn't evil, it's just that there's both good and evil within every person.
What you have made clear is you only believe portions of Scripture, if any...
and so I have nothing for you.
I will pray that God will offer you discernment and understanding.

[JimfromOhio]

First of all, I think I made it clear that I don't believe that God is evil... so it doesn't make me blasphemous. :)

And self isn't evil, it's just that there's both good and evil within every person.

I am not evil but I am corrupted and born a sinner. Only Christ Who is in me will allow me enter into heaven. :thumbsup:

[Joykins]

The bible states pretty clearly that the wages of sin is death.

One of the words translated hell in the Bible is a word for "the grave" i.e. death, so those references to hell refer to death.

There are other references to hell (gehenna) or eternal fire.

I think English translations don't make this distinction well. What does it mean to be "dead in your sins"? Does it mean destined for eternal torture, or just not existing after the final judgment? What does it mean that death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire, when the lake of fire is defined as "the second death"? Why does the Parable of the Sheep and Goats say that it is deeds that gets one into either eternal punishment or eternal life?

Also, the early teachings about eternal life or the afterlife reference the resurrection and not heaven. How do we know the afterlife is really about heaven?

I always found this confusing, still do. The traditional heaven and hell thing doesn't make sense without the tradition as a framework to interpret by.

[Catherineanne]

Sure anyone can believe God without believing the Bible.

Actually, I am the one believing the Bible.

I believe it when it says that it is the inspired word of God, inspired meaning breathed into by God, not meaning anything more or less. I give it the honour it deserves, but I do not worship it, because it does not tell me to. I do not regard it as perfect, because it nowhere claims to be. I do not regard it as equal to God, because it nowhere says that it is.

If this is 'not believing the Bible' then I am not sure what language you are speaking, to be honest.

To do more than is authorised in Scripture is not honouring the Bible, it is setting it up as a false idol, plating it in gold and worshipping it. This is what some churches, and some Christians, are doing in this present day and age. It is nowhere authorised in Scripture, and it displaces God from his throne and replaces him with a book.

The Bible does not tell us to do any of this. And the funniest thing of all is that those who behave in this blasphemous way, call themselves 'Bible Believing', when they are actually the exact opposite. ^_^

[Miracle Storm]

One of the words translated hell in the Bible is a word for "the grave" i.e. death, so those references to hell refer to death.

There are other references to hell (gehenna) or eternal fire.

I think English translations don't make this distinction well. What does it mean to be "dead in your sins"? Does it mean destined for eternal torture, or just not existing after the final judgment? What does it mean that death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire, when the lake of fire is defined as "the second death"? Why does the Parable of the Sheep and Goats say that it is deeds that gets one into either eternal punishment or eternal life?

Also, the early teachings about eternal life or the afterlife reference the resurrection and not heaven. How do we know the afterlife is really about heaven?

I always found this confusing, still do. The traditional heaven and hell thing doesn't make sense without the tradition as a framework to interpret by.
This is when you get into beliefs such as annihilation and such.
When you read Luke 16 you can clearly see the rich man doesn't just cease to exist.
Yeah for some it would be nice to believe that, but the Word is truth.
death is the last enemy to be destroyed 1 cor. 15:26

We will then have a changed body, one that is not corruptable or subject to death.

Hell is referenced many ways, fire, brimstone, torture, torment, blackest darkness...ect. So the place is not a place that anyone should just turn a deaf ear to and say ah well I'll wait to see if it's there before I decide if I accept Christ...again Luke 16 {NOW IS THE TIME} - it's hell.

I'm probably missing some of this but I'm going to have to go in a sec. going out of town today.

[Catherineanne]

What you have made clear is you only believe portions of Scripture, if any...


So do you. So does every Christian on earth.

Tell me, was Our Lord crucified on Thursday or Friday? Did he reappear in Galilee or Jerusalem? Was mankind created as a whole or from two people?

It is not possible to believe every single word of the Bible for the simple reason that it contains conflicting accounts of the same story. This is a very clear indicator that the truth it contains is spiritual, emotional and theological, but not necessarily literal.

[Miracle Storm]

Actually, I am the one believing the Bible.

I believe it when it says that it is the inspired word of God, inspired meaning breathed into by God, not meaning anything more or less. I give it the honour it deserves, but I do not worship it, because it does not tell me to. I do not regard it as perfect, because it nowhere claims to be. I do not regard it as equal to God, because it nowhere says that it is.

If this is 'not believing the Bible' then I am not sure what language you are speaking, to be honest.

To do more than is authorised in Scripture is not honouring the Bible, it is setting it up as a false idol, plating it in gold and worshipping it. This is what some churches, and some Christians, are doing in this present day and age. It is nowhere authorised in Scripture, and it displaces God from his throne and replaces him with a book.

The Bible does not tell us to do any of this. And the funniest thing of all is that those who behave in this blasphemous way, call themselves 'Bible Believing', when they are actually the exact opposite. ^_^
I'm not sure who you are saying "worships the bible" or calls it equal to God.
We are not saying that, but ARE saying it is the inerrant Word of God, God breathed.

How do you believe part and not all? If you learned of God, how did you learn of Him? If it be the Bible or a person who had read the Bible what makes you believe it is truth if you believe other portions to be fallible?

Just curious. I probably wont have time to respond though..

[JimfromOhio]

Actually, I am the one believing the Bible.

I believe it when it says that it is the inspired word of God, inspired meaning breathed into by God, not meaning anything more or less. I give it the honour it deserves, but I do not worship it, because it does not tell me to. I do not regard it as perfect, because it nowhere claims to be. I do not regard it as equal to God, because it nowhere says that it is.

If this is 'not believing the Bible' then I am not sure what language you are speaking, to be honest.

To do more than is authorised in Scripture is not honouring the Bible, it is setting it up as a false idol, plating it in gold and worshipping it. This is what some churches, and some Christians, are doing in this present day and age. It is nowhere authorised in Scripture, and it displaces God from his throne and replaces him with a book.

The Bible does not tell us to do any of this. And the funniest thing of all is that those who behave in this blasphemous way, call themselves 'Bible Believing', when they are actually the exact opposite. ^_^

Jesse Jackson said on the Larry King Show: We live under a Constitution, not under a bible, under the Constitution.

I never liked the term "Bible believing Christians". The God of the Bible is a jealous God. He makes himself perfectly clear on this point. God is the AUTHOR of the Bible which meant that the Author became WORD in the flesh. The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. For example, to know the precepts, but not the living God. "Thou shalt love the Bible thy Book with all thine heart, soul, and strength."

I am careful when not to worship the Bible. I worship the Author of the Bible

[Joykins]

This is when you get into beliefs such as annihilation and such.
When you read Luke 16 you can clearly see the rich man doesn't just cease to exist.
Yeah for some it would be nice to believe that, but the Word is truth.
death is the last enemy to be destroyed 1 cor. 15:26

We will then have a changed body, one that is not corruptable or subject to death.

Hell is referenced many ways, fire, brimstone, torture, torment, blackest darkness...ect. So the place is not a place that anyone should just turn a deaf ear to and say ah well I'll wait to see if it's there before I decide if I accept Christ...again Luke 16 {NOW IS THE TIME} - it's hell.

I'm probably missing some of this but I'm going to have to go in a sec. going out of town today.

There are references to annihilation and there are references to eternal torture. There is hell for not believing, there is hell for deeds. There is death hell and there is eternal torture hell.

Your reading removes the ambiguity only by choosing a position. I do not find a consistent picture of this from reading all the scriptures on the subject. According to the Sermon on the Mount I'm going to hell for calling my brother a fool.

[Miracle Storm]

So do you. So does every Christian on earth.



No you are wrong and no you are wrong. This is only your belief because it is how you believe....

[Miracle Storm]

There are references to annihilation and there are references to eternal torture. There is hell for not believing, there is hell for deeds. There is death hell and there is eternal torture hell.

Your reading removes the ambiguity only by choosing a position. I do not find a consistent picture of this from reading all the scriptures on the subject. According to the Sermon on the Mount I'm going to hell for calling my brother a fool.
Real quick and then I got to go.

I do believe there are different levels of hell.
But this is only my belief. I speak for no one else.

[Nadiine]

This is when you get into beliefs such as annihilation and such.
When you read Luke 16 you can clearly see the rich man doesn't just cease to exist.
Yeah for some it would be nice to believe that, but the Word is truth.
death is the last enemy to be destroyed 1 cor. 15:26

We will then have a changed body, one that is not corruptable or subject to death.

Hell is referenced many ways, fire, brimstone, torture, torment, blackest darkness...ect. So the place is not a place that anyone should just turn a deaf ear to and say ah well I'll wait to see if it's there before I decide if I accept Christ...again Luke 16 {NOW IS THE TIME} - it's hell.

I'm probably missing some of this but I'm going to have to go in a sec. going out of town today.
And let's not forget this one:
Luke 12:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=12&verse=5&version=49&context=verse)
"But I will warn you whom to fear:
fear the One who, after He has killed,
has authority to cast into hell;
yes, I tell you, fear Him!

I think if Jesus goes as far to say this, then there's something very important to be warned of.

Annihilation is the RELEASE of punishment, it's not punishment.

[Joykins]

And let's not forget this one:
Luke 12:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=12&verse=5&version=49&context=verse)
"But I will warn you whom to fear:
fear the One who, after He has killed,
has authority to cast into hell;
yes, I tell you, fear Him!

I think if Jesus goes as far to say this, then there's something very important to be warned of.

Annihilation is the RELEASE of punishment, it's not punishment.




SDA-variety annihilationships IIRC has some punishment and then annnihilation.

Romans says the wages of sin is death (as does Genesis--the punishment for knowing Good and evil is death)--not eternal torture.

There's different levels of something, I just haven't been able to get it all straight in my mind.

[Joykins]

Real quick and then I got to go.

I do believe there are different levels of hell.
But this is only my belief. I speak for no one else.

According to the apostolic churches, Limbo is actually part of hell. If you read Dante, it's where the virtuous pagans and pre-Christians live, and where Jesus did his Harrowing in the Harrowing of Hell-- and it isn't full of torment so much as it is a place without hope of being with God:


There, as it seemed to me from listening,
Were lamentations none, but only sighs,
That tremble made the everlasting air.


And this arose from sorrow without torment,
Which the crowds had, that many were and great
Of infants and of women and of men.


To me the Master good: "Thou dost not ask
What spirits these, which thou beholdest, are?
Now will I have thee know, ere thou go farther,


That they sinned not; and if they merit had,
'Tis not enough, because they had not baptism
Which is the portal of the Faith thou holdest;


And if they were before Christianity,
In the right manner they adored not God;
And among such as these am I myself


For such defects, and not for other guilt,
Lost are we and are only so far punished,
That without hope we live on in desire."


Great grief seized on my heart when this I heard,
Because some people of much worthiness
I knew, who in that Limbo were suspended.


"Tell me, my Master, tell me, thou my Lord,"
Began I, with desire of being certain
Of that Faith which o'ercometh every error,


"Came any one by his own merit hence,
Or by another s, who was blessed thereafter?"
And he, who understood my covert speech,


Replied:"I was a novice in this state,
When I saw hither come a Mighty One,
With sign of victory incoronate.


Hence he drew forth the shade of the First
And that of his son Abel, and of Noah,
Of Moses the lawgiver, and the obedient


Abraham, patriarch, and David, king,
Israel with his father and his children,
And Rachel, for whose sake he did so much,


And others many, and he made them blessed;
And thou must know, that earlier than these
Never were any human spirits saved."

[JimfromOhio]

Without Christ through the Holy Spirit... we ARE NOTHING except worthy of going through the WIDE GATE of hell. Ungenerated people have no capacity to understand God's spiritual truth; instead they created God in their own image that they are calling God's truth foolishness (1 Cor. 2:14).

[Time2BCounted]

So do you. So does every Christian on earth.

Just because you only believe what you pick and choose to believe, dont blame everyone else of halfhearted heresy ;)take your own blame, some of us believe every word, and most of these are in this forum i believe.


Tell me, was Our Lord crucified on Thursday or Friday?

Give us the scripture telling us the day and we will believe it, there is none so ypou have no point. You tell me which Sabbath was it? This IS indicated


Did he reappear in Galilee or Jerusalem?

He reappeared as Mary looked for Him at the tomb... you tell me where was that?


Was mankind created as a whole or from two people??

Huh? I think i need more coffee to understand this one lol

It is not possible to believe every single word of the Bible for the simple reason that it contains conflicting accounts of the same story.

No actually this is a deception from satan that has been perpetuated for many years... You are also judging us and Lording over us, dictating to us what we can and cannot do. We can do as we choose to do and we choose to do what you choose not to do... So dont off your disbelief on us ok? ;)

This is a very clear indicator that the truth it contains is spiritual, emotional and theological, but not necessarily literal.[/quote]

[chaoschristian]

This is a very clear indicator that the truth it contains is spiritual, emotional and theological, but not necessarily literal.

Who said this? T2BC or Athene? There's a missing tag.

[Time2BCounted]

Who said this? T2BC or Athene? There's a missing tag.
its not my quote

[chaoschristian]

its not my quote

OK. I would have been really surpised otherwise.

[Nadiine]

Without Christ through the Holy Spirit... we ARE NOTHING except worthy of going through the WIDE GATE of hell. Ungenerated people have no capacity to understand God's spiritual truth; instead they created God in their own image that they are calling God's truth foolishness (1 Cor. 2:14).
This is what I call realizing our TRUE [evil] condition. Some people here would like to make us think we're all wonderful people who deserve God's best & sin or no sin, we don't deserve to be cut off from God - that's the HEIGHT of pride and the corrupt human condition to elevate ourselves so highly, as if just becuz we're His creation, He owes us (and we deserve) all His blessings and life.

As if God should wink at our depravity and not deal with evil. God help us.
Jeremiah 17:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=17&verse=9&version=49&context=verse)
"The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

[Nadiine]

?

Huh? I think i need more coffee to understand this one lol
*Holds up coffee mug: CHEERS*

[Time2BCounted]

OK. I would have been really surpised otherwise.
I bet
if i ever say anything like that dont shoot me til after i repent lol ;)

[Time2BCounted]

*Holds up coffee mug: CHEERS*
Cheers <clank> :thumbsup:

[Nadiine]

Cheers <clank> :thumbsup:
LOL (suspiciously checks to see if there's anything else in the mug) :P ^_^

[Time2BCounted]

LOL (suspiciously checks to see if there's anything else in the mug) :P ^_^
What? Are you jealous or coveting? lolol Here lets make yours 'irish' too and call it a day lol :cool:

...and when ya stirred mine with your finger you left it in too long, its too sweet :P

[Nadiine]

What? Are you jealous or coveting? lolol Here lets make yours 'irish' too and call it a day lol :cool:

...and when ya stirred mine with your finger you left it in too long, its too sweet :P
Ok, I'll have a black russian... hold the coffee. heh :holy:

[Time2BCounted]

Ok, I'll have a black russian... hold the coffee. heh :holy:
woo hoo now we're talkin :thumbsup: :yum:

We've put in a lot of overtime... we need a sabbath lol :cool:

[Nadiine]

woo hoo now we're talkin :thumbsup: :yum:

We've put in a lot of overtime... we need a sabbath lol :cool:
LOL apparently other people feel the same way, it got eerily quiet around here.
*hiccup* :cool: ^_^

[Time2BCounted]

LOL apparently other people feel the same way, it got eerily quiet around here.
*hiccup* :cool: ^_^
it could be we are the only two that likes us when we ummm... relax :cool:

then its like the little japanese running from Godzilla around here lolol

OOOOOOOO NO
There goes Tokyo
Go Go Godzilla

[Ishida]

Then please explain the differance in the word 'eternity' as it is used in life and punishment in this verse... or does eternal mean eternal in both cases?


Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Yeah.

[Time2BCounted]

Yeah.
Explain please

[Joykins]

Without Christ through the Holy Spirit... we ARE NOTHING except worthy of going through the WIDE GATE of hell. Ungenerated people have no capacity to understand God's spiritual truth; instead they created God in their own image that they are calling God's truth foolishness (1 Cor. 2:14).


Speaking of the wide gates of hell--they do not prevail against the Church.

Now what does that mean? Gates don't invade but they can be attacked or beseiged.

[Time2BCounted]

Speaking of the wide gates of hell--they do not prevail against the Church.

Now what does that mean? Gates don't invade but they can be attacked or beseiged.
thats the church... not the unsaved ;)

[Ishida]

Eternity means eternity. Did I say something to make it sound different?

[Time2BCounted]

Thanks Ishida

Ok lets look at this then

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

We have eternal life. What does this mean to you?

[Catherineanne]

I'm not sure who you are saying "worships the bible" or calls it equal to God.
We are not saying that, but ARE saying it is the inerrant Word of God, God breathed.

The Bible makes clear in the Gospel of John and in Revelation that Word of God is a title for Christ himself.

Anyone applying this title to the Bible, and ascribing characteristics of the Word made Flesh to Scripture is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead, when it is not. Only God is perfect, inerrant and infallible. These properties do not belong to Scripture, and are nowhere in Scripture authorised for use about it.

The reference when used of Scripture is 'word of God', small w. Anything else, and the user is verging on the ground of blasphemy which I described.

God breathed, yes, because it says so. Word of God, no, because this is Christ himself, because it says so.

Believing the Bible means taking what it says and believing it. Not making other stuff up, which is not authorised, and believing that.

[Catherineanne]

I am careful when not to worship the Bible. I worship the Author of the Bible

Quite right, although I would not regard God as the Author, but the Inspirer, because this is what the Bible (Timothy) says. The men who wrote the words are the authors, and God is the one who inspires them to write. I am certain that if God himself had written it, we would have a very different book indeed.

But the distinction you draw is nonetheless a very important one for Christians to be aware of.

Moslems believe the Koran to be perfect and infallible, because dictated by God. To them, the Word of God is the Koran; a book.

Christians believe Christ to be perfect and infallible, and Scripture tells us that he is the Word of God;a man, like us, yet so much more. To regard the Bible as the Word of God is to Islamicise Christianity, as well as being unBiblical.

This is one of the most fundamental differences between our two faiths, and it is important for people to understand it.

[Nadiine]

The Bible makes clear in the Gospel of John and in Revelation that Word of God is a title for Christ himself.

Anyone applying this title to the Bible, and ascribing characteristics of the Word made Flesh to Scripture is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead, when it is not. Only God is perfect, inerrant and infallible. These properties do not belong to Scripture, and are nowhere in Scripture authorised for use about it.
I totally disagree with this. TO say it's "fallible" anywhere is then to say "I have all authority to decide what is UNTRUE and false in this bible; I therefore am the teacher and I decide what is true within the covers of this book".
The TEACHINGS/CONCEPTS/PRINCIPLES that are taught are from God to His inspired authors who wrote what was inspired. ***this is why the prophecies in that bible are 100% accurate and fulfilled and are being fulfilled to date***.

We don't call the bible fallible and erroneous; it makes US teachers of the truth rather than accepting the Bible at what it says in each verse.



The reference when used of Scripture is 'word of God', small w. Anything else, and the user is verging on the ground of blasphemy which I described.

I disagree, THE BIBLE RELAYS GODS WORDS TO US thru inspired writers as the Spirit impressed it upon them. They testify to that fact.

God breathed, yes, because it says so. Word of God, no, because this is Christ himself, because it says so.
Again, they are HIS WORDS to man - HIS teachings. They are His words becuz they relay what He said, what He tells us to do, what He desires, what has and will happen and why God did certain things that we wouldn't otherwise know of God.


Believing the Bible means taking what it says and believing it. Not making other stuff up, which is not authorised, and believing that.
That I'll agree with

[Albion]

The Bible makes clear in the Gospel of John and in Revelation that Word of God is a title for Christ himself.

Well, not exactly. Christ is called that, but so is scripture.

Anyone applying this title to the Bible, and ascribing characteristics of the Word made Flesh to Scripture is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead, when it is not.

No, they are just referring to the revealed word of God as God's word, which it is, at least according to the Bible itself. This holds whether "Word" is capitalized or not.

It is instructive, BTW, to know that everyone from the Pope to the best known of the TV evangelists has referred to the Bible as the Word of God. My guess is that they are not meaning something by it along the lines you are saying is being done.

[Catherineanne]

It is instructive, BTW, to know that everyone from the Pope to the best known of the TV evangelists has referred to the Bible as the Word of God. My guess is that they are not meaning something by it along the lines you are saying is being done.

Evangelists, maybe, but the Holy Father would never make the mistake of confusing the Word of God with the word of God. He is far too holy and spiritual a man to do such a thing.

:wave:

[Catherineanne]

I totally disagree with this. TO say it's "fallible" anywhere is then to say "I have all authority to decide what is UNTRUE and false in this bible; I therefore am the teacher and I decide what is true within the covers of this book".

Nonsense. It simply means to read what is there, in black and white, and then to live by it, as at the end of your post you say you agree with.

I am not saying anything of myself. All I am saying is what is, and what is not, authorised in Scripture itself. Nobody has to take my word for it; look for yourself. If you anywhere find that the Bible calls itself perfect, then by all means believe it. But it does not anywhere do so.

[Albion]

Evangelists, maybe, but the Holy Father would never make the mistake of confusing the Word of God with the word of God.

Of course he would not.

Would not make the mistake of confusing the Word of God with the Word of God, that is. But use "Word of God" for the Bible? Yes indeed.

There it was in the Vatican's own news release on its own service, and with a capital "W," when he recently called upon Catholics to make more of Bible study.

IOW, there is nothing wrong with speaking of the Bible as the Word of God. Catholic clergy and Protestant clergy, including some very prominent ones, do it all the time and know exactly what they mean. As we all know, words can have more than one meaning.

[chaoschristian]

There's a distinction to be made I think.

Undeniably even the earliest authors of scripture referred to them as the word of God. Even the Word of God.

The Word of God, however, as the concept is presented in the Gospel of John is unique and distinct from the (then) historical and traditional use of the term. Additionally it is specifically a Greek term and influenced by Hellenistic thinking. The Word in John's case being Logos in Greek, and more appropriately translated as Logic or Means than Word into English.

Over time, however, there has been a trend among certain populations to conflate and confuse the two, and I've seen plenty of it at CF/FU and in real life. To the point that scriptures and Christ are seen as one and the same.

Saying scriptures if the w(W)or of God is traditionally correct.

Saying that scriptures is the embodiment of Christ is, I think, serious error.

[Albion]

There's a distinction to be made I think.

Undeniably even the earliest authors of scripture referred to them as the word of God. Even the Word of God.

The Word of God, however, as the concept is presented in the Gospel of John is unique and distinct from the (then) historical and traditional use of the term.

Yes, but that is no problem. The term can be and has been used to mean two different things. It is a false charge that if one of us says "Word of God" when referring to the divine inspiration of the scriptures, that we are, therefore, confusing Christ with Bible books. I know the difference. You admit that there is a difference. Great. The only issue is that Catherine spoke as if using it in one context necessarily means misunderstanding the other meaning or mangling the difference. That's just not correct to say.

It is not correct, at least not unless I were to go on and explain my intent and demonstrate some confusion of the two. But that doesn't take place merely because the term is used.

Saying that scriptures is the embodiment of Christ is, I think, serious error.

Well, in the case of anyone who might actually say that (and I've never heard anyone do it) I would agree. But you know that this is not the issue here, or with notables such as Benedict XVI, Billy Graham, or all the clergy who use "Word of God" as a description of the Scriptures.

If someone does not understand this, he might as well accuse the Bible itself of saying that it is the 'embodiment of Christ,' since it is from the books of the Bible that we derive both uses.

I also wonder if the underlying problem is not misunderstood. You said that you have read many people on Cf and elsewhere think that the Bible and Christ are one in the same? I have never heard that, although I have heard people say that the Bible is infallible, that it predicts, etc. Christ's coming and mission, that those who are believers in its purity and sufficiency are "worshipping (sic) the Bible," and so on. But to actually argue that the books and God himself are one and the same? I barely can believe that anyone would think that, it's so peculiar. But if it is so, it is such a minority opinion and so unrelated to using the term "Word of God" in two senses, that applying their thinking to the rest of us is equally weird.

[JimfromOhio]

This is what I call realizing our TRUE [evil] condition. Some people here would like to make us think we're all wonderful people who deserve God's best & sin or no sin, we don't deserve to be cut off from God - that's the HEIGHT of pride and the corrupt human condition to elevate ourselves so highly, as if just becuz we're His creation, He owes us (and we deserve) all His blessings and life.

As if God should wink at our depravity and not deal with evil. God help us.
Jeremiah 17:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=17&verse=9&version=49&context=verse)
"The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?


Depends how we use our spiritual fruits and our approach in situations. It can go both ways depending how a Christian behave. Christians in "spirit" can work together even when they differ on doctrinal issues however, their flesh do not allow them to work together. 1 Corinthians 6:19, "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" MY body is "good" and wonderful gift from God. Paul said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection ..." (1Corinthians 9:27). The key word here is "discipline" your flesh. Flesh-filled means "If we do not yield and honor the Holy Spirit, our lives will not show forth the blessed fruits of the Spirit!" Biblically, as a Christian, I should be submitted to, be modified and be conditioned by the Holy Spirit. If I yield under the world's pressure, this tells me that I am are too weak spiritually to resist.

[chaoschristian]

I also wonder if the underlying problem is not misunderstood. You said that you have read many people on Cf and elsewhere think that the Bible and Christ are one in the same? I have never heard that, although I have heard people say that the Bible is infallible, that it predicts, etc. Christ's coming and mission, that those who are believers in its purity and sufficiency are "worshipping (sic) the Bible," and so on. But to actually argue that the books and God himself are one and the same? I barely can believe that anyone would think that, it's so peculiar. But if it is so, it is such a minority opinion and so unrelated to using the term "Word of God" in two senses, that applying their thinking to the rest of us is equally weird.

Albion:

I think Catherineanne is overstating her case. I agree that using Word of God to refer to scripture does not necessarily mean that the one who uses it is conflating scripture and Christ. It may be the case, but not necessarily so.

Believe me, it's happened, that members and people in real life have conflated the two though. Most of the ones I've seen around CF/FU were frequenters of the OT forum, but I haven't seen them around in awhile. I could pull out references if you really want me to, but it will take time as it will be a bit of an archeological dig.

I also agree with you that it is a minority. The question is, is it a minority that will eventually be corrected, or is it a trend?

Let's hope for the former.

[JimfromOhio]

Speaking of the wide gates of hell--they do not prevail against the Church.

Now what does that mean? Gates don't invade but they can be attacked or beseiged.

When God opens the door of a church by causing it to grow, Satan can't stop Him. Jesus said, "... I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt. 16:18). When Christ opens doors, they stay open until He returns. Every opportunity, every effort of salvation, every door for the gospel of Christ, every opportunity of holiness, truth, and service--is made possible by Jesus Christ through US.

By looking at the example of the church at Philadelphia. This church was holy because Christ was at the center. It was true because Christ, the truth, they focused on Him. It had an open door of salvation to God because Christ unlocked the door. Everything about the church (Christians) revolves around Jesus Christ, not programs.

The Church is looking for better methods; God is looking for better men. The Holy Ghost does not flow through methods, but through men. He does not come on machinery, but on men. He does not anoint plans, but men…Men of prayer." --E. M. Bounds

[JimfromOhio]

Quite right, although I would not regard God as the Author, but the Inspirer, because this is what the Bible (Timothy) says. The men who wrote the words are the authors, and God is the one who inspires them to write. I am certain that if God himself had written it, we would have a very different book indeed.

But the distinction you draw is nonetheless a very important one for Christians to be aware of.

Moslems believe the Koran to be perfect and infallible, because dictated by God. To them, the Word of God is the Koran; a book.

Christians believe Christ to be perfect and infallible, and Scripture tells us that he is the Word of God;a man, like us, yet so much more. To regard the Bible as the Word of God is to Islamicise Christianity, as well as being unBiblical.

This is one of the most fundamental differences between our two faiths, and it is important for people to understand it.

This is how I look at this. God's grace is more than sufficient in my life that I am to fix my eyes on Jesus who is my author and perfecter of my faith (Hebrews 12:2). Reading Psalm 119 helped me understand by explaining that the Bible illumines the dark corners of heart and mind by exposing sin but reveals the way of rightousness. The Word of God (Bible) rebukes in order that we may see our own faults. ''Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.'' Psalm 119:105

[Albion]

Albion:

I think Catherineanne is overstating her case.

Which is about all that I was concerned to point out. She did say Anyone applying this title to the Bible, and ascribing characteristics of the Word made Flesh to Scripture is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead, which I'm sure we agree is indefensible as it is worded.

Believe me, it's happened, that members and people in real life have conflated the two though. Most of the ones I've seen around CF/FU were frequenters of the OT forum, but I haven't seen them around in awhile. I could pull out references if you really want me to, but it will take time as it will be a bit of an archeological dig.

No, don't bother. That can be time-consuming, and I didn't disbelieve you when you said it. It strikes me as absurd, and I thought that there might be some misunderstanding, but since you seemed sure of it, I wasn't dismissing it out of hand.

I also agree with you that it is a minority. The question is, is it a minority that will eventually be corrected, or is it a trend? Let's hope for the former.

I'd think that it is such a minority opinion that it cannot become much of a trend, but who knows? There are some other strange theories that otherwise serious Christians have promoted in recent years.

One more thing--I'm not unfamiliar with the "No, Word of God doesn't mean scripture; it means Christ himself" charge. There's more involved here on this thread, but Catholics often like to say this line with a superior air when putting down Protestants as less capable of grasping the more ethereal aspects of belief, or so they think.

[Catherineanne]

She did say Anyone applying this title to the Bible, and ascribing characteristics of the Word made Flesh to Scripture is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead,

I do not see how this is indefensible; Christ is the Logos, and the Bible is not. Christ is love, mercy and compassion, the Bible is a book leading us to Christ.

Characteristics of God belong to God, and may be described in the book but do not belong to the book itself. They are found in Christ in their perfect state, and in Christians in an imperfect state. To ascribe characteristics of infallibility, perfection or whatever to the Bible is, therefore, breaking the first commandment, and setting up the book alongside the godhead.

This may be overstating the case to some, but I am not the only person who holds this view. I am a high Anglican, and have great respect for Scripture. But far more for God himself; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I am only trying to bring the pendulum back towards the centre, and away from the overemphasis on Scripture and its inerrancy. All I am saying is, if Scripture supports a point of view, then by all means believe it. But if Scripture does not support that point of view, and others choose therefore to take it at its word, then do not at the same time call them unBiblical, or accuse them of not believing the Bible or whatever else might be said.

I am not asking anyone to agree with me; that would be asking too much. All I am saying is, look and see what the Bible says of itself (which is actually nothing at all), rather than what some churches are saying about it, which is unsubstantiated.

[Albion]

I do not see how this is indefensible; Christ is the Logos, and the Bible is not. Christ is love, mercy and compassion, the Bible is a book leading us to Christ.

Here's the answer. You said this: Anyone applying this title to the Bible, and ascribing characteristics of the Word made Flesh to Scripture is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead,

As that stands, it is indefensible. To say that anyone who uses the term--the Pope included--is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead is ridiculous. While there may be a person here or there who does so, most of us use the term to mean only that the scriptures have a divine origin. That's it.

The only way that it cannot be patently wrong is for us to make the part in blue the main focus. Only if, we then say, the "anyone" clearly ascribed characteristics of Christ to scripture would your point be reasonable. But it is too vague, as written, to work, even at that. There are many characteristics of both. For example, Christ is truth, the Word of God/'Scripture is truth, so it could be said that this constitutes ascribing a characteristic of Christ to scripture, and so we are back at an indefensible proposition anyway. Or we could say that the Bible and Christ both have a physical nature. Right?

[Nadiine]

Here's the answer. You said this: Anyone applying this title to the Bible, and ascribing characteristics of the Word made Flesh to Scripture is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead,

As that stands, it is indefensible. To say that anyone who uses the term--the Pope included--is treating the Bible as part of the Godhead is ridiculous. While there may be a person here or there who does so, most of us use the term to mean only that the scriptures have a divine origin. That's it.

The only way that it cannot be patently wrong is for us to make the part in blue the main focus. Only if, we then say, the "anyone" clearly ascribed characteristics of Christ to scripture would your point be reasonable. But it is too vague, as written, to work, even at that. There are many characteristics of both. For example, Christ is truth, the Word of God/'Scripture is truth, so it could be said that this constitutes ascribing a characteristic of Christ to scripture, and so we are back at an indefensible proposition anyway. Or we could say that the Bible and Christ both have a physical nature. Right?
:thumbsup: Yes, it's ludicrous. I consider it just a tactic to sidestep the inevitable; slap an exhaggerated extreme onto it so you can avoid having to admit (or deny) it's inspired by God or truth.

[Miracle Storm]

:thumbsup: Yes, it's ludicrous. I consider it just a tactic to sidestep the inevitable; slap an exhaggerated extreme onto it so you can avoid having to admit (or deny) it's inspired by God or truth.:preach:

EXACTLY.